Epic Weapon changes in GU47.

[EasternKing]

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

EasternKing wrote:

but if the very best players in game can do amazing things, with amazing gear they need to be balanced, that means players lower down the totem pole get the nerf / fix as well

I'm sorry, but I'm totally failing to grasp that argument. Could you explain it a little more? It makes no sense at all to me, especially since I'm not seeing it applied to any other class but Monks. Certainly it's not being applied to Assassins, so why apply it to Monks, too?

every nerf that has happend in the entirety of EQ2 has happened due to a tiny % of the player base being totally and uttely OP and trivialising content, lu13 ring any bells ? every combat revamp, rangers are another class that spring to mind.ive not claimed ANYWHERE monks need nerfing / balancing, what i did say was there a very very powerful class atm, with amazing versatility.now as for Assassins, well im not going to open that can of worms, i play a Brigand, im sure you can well imagine my thoughts on the 50% spell crit, DE racials, Totally op mythical, totally OP lvl 80 new ability. but hey maybe one day we will see a Dev change, and then well see a class rebalance. see im totally not commenting on Assassins ;p

[Echgar]

EasternKing wrote:

in short go troll some place elsewhere.

Let's not do this back and forth insult stuff please.  I understand that many of you are quite passionate about various issues including the issue originally being discussed in this thread (epic weapon changes in GU47).  While you are welcome to disagree with each other, please keep your comments on-topic, constructive, and courteous.If you have already posted your opinion, it is sometimes best to just move onto other subjects in other threads.  When you start arguing in circles with another poster, the insults eventually come out of one of the parties and that is a sign it is better to just drop it with that person.  It is ok for two people to have a different opinion.

[Echgar]

Folks let's try to keep replies to this thread on-topic please.  This thread is about Epic Weapon changes in GU47.  Please make sure your replies are relevant to the original post in this thread.  I sense there are an awful lot of tangents being explored in this thread that have little to do with the original topic.  If you want to discuss other topics, please find another thread discussing that other issue or start a new thread.

[liveja]

EasternKing wrote:

i play a Brigand

Yes, I noticed that. I noticed that you appear to think your Brigand mythical should be "improved", or something.

I can't help wondering why you think that, given that you think the Monk mythical should remain "sub-par" in order to "balance" the fact that well-geared, highly-skilled Monks can do "amazing things" & thus, apparently, all lesser-geared, lesser-skilled Monks should also suffer as a result.

You see, the exact same things can be said about you Brigands (I've seen Brigands dominate a parse by more than 2k) & we Swashies (last night, consistent DPS leader in Kor-Sha was a Swashy, a good 1k ahead of the Wizzie in spot 2). After all, well-geared & highly-skilled players of both classes can do "amazing things", can we not? Thus, by YOUR OWN LOGIC, our mythicals should be less attractive than we'd like them to be, & thus are probably on par with what the Developers think of us.

If that doesn't show you the gaping hole in your logic, then allow me to point out that your response did nothing to explain why Assassins -- who are capable of doing even more "amazing things" -- shouldn't get the crappiest mythical of all. In short, your "logic" is badly illogical  & even, IMO, hypocrisy.

The Brigand, Swashy, & Monk mythicals ALL NEED AN UPGRADE. This is true, regardless of what "amazing things" can be done by the most skilled players of those three classes. Quite frankly, deliberately nerfing an entire class simply because of what the "most skilled" players can accomplish -- whether or not it's been done before -- is one of the single biggest mistakes ANY MMO developer team can make.

[liveja]

Isn't it interesting that the only players who don't seem to be raising a stink about their mythical seem to be the Assassins?

I wonder why.

[EasternKing]

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

EasternKing wrote:

i play a Brigand

Yes, I noticed that. I noticed that you appear to think your Brigand mythical should be "improved", or something.

I can't help wondering why you think that, given that you think the Monk mythical should remain "sub-par" in order to "balance" the fact that well-geared, highly-skilled Monks can do "amazing things" & thus, apparently, all lesser-geared, lesser-skilled Monks should also suffer as a result.

You see, the exact same things can be said about you Brigands (I've seen Brigands dominate a parse by more than 2k) & we Swashies (last night, consistent DPS leader in Kor-Sha was a Swashy, a good 1k ahead of the Wizzie in spot 2). After all, well-geared & highly-skilled players of both classes can do "amazing things", can we not? Thus, by YOUR OWN LOGIC, our mythicals should be less attractive than we'd like them to be, & thus are probably on par with what the Developers think of us.

If that doesn't show you the gaping hole in your logic, then allow me to point out that your response did nothing to explain why Assassins -- who are capable of doing even more "amazing things" -- shouldn't get the crappiest mythical of all. In short, your "logic" is badly illogical & even, IMO, hypocrisy.

The Brigand, Swashy, & Monk mythicals ALL NEED AN UPGRADE. This is true, regardless of what "amazing things" can be done by the most skilled players of those three classes. Quite frankly, deliberately nerfing an entire class simply because of what the "most skilled" players can accomplish -- whether or not it's been done before -- is one of the single biggest mistakes ANY MMO developer team can make.

again im sorry to ask this, do you have your mythical ? are you clearing T4 content ?im asking this because Frankly the whole point of balancing class's is whats being done at top end with the best gear and mythicals, i can assure you that wizards are not losing zw parses to rogues top end.the monk mythical makes them more effective tanks, they are asking for more dps, is this so hard to grasp? top end brawlers are already producing T1 dps, there already tanking the tangrin, the hardest mob in game to tank, so sorry if i dont see the monk mythical as being under powered. sorry if i dont see them as needing more dps.as for the latest change to the brig mythical its a nerf on what it was, and it was already rubbish.im sorry but you cannot compare a weapon that has 3 effects on it that are 0 use to the class using it at all, to one which actually lets what all the monks were asking for on these boards for months and months, ie to be better tanksid say in that respect its a rip roaring sucess, they can tank the hardest stuff in game and be more accurate than ANY fighter class can be when defensive.as i already said in case you missed the sarcasm, ASSASSINS need nerfing, there mythical needs nerfing, i mean i cant believe im having to spell this out for you. the fact of the matter is its widely believed that assassins are not going to be nerfed or balanced, b/cos the Dev who controls all this happens to play one. so try pick some more holes in my logic please by all means.

[liveja]

EasternKing wrote:

as i already said in case you missed the sarcasm, ASSASSINS need nerfing, there mythical needs nerfing

I completely missed that sarcasm, I'll concede that.

I disagree on everything else, & my position stands as previously stated.

[Nakash]

just checked the changes to the paladin and Sk Mythical on the test server

changes are the same just to one thing.

while the Sk has added the proc to the Seething hatred proc (procchance 2.4) the paladin weapon got an standalone proc chance of 3.0

both proc chances can not be modified.

short question... why ?

 *edit*

 Found it : The proc on the SK weapon procs on any sucessfull attack , the paly one on a sucessfull attack, so the the SK dam proc procs on spells.

[EQ2Luv]

EasternKing wrote:

sorry if you ignored everything else i said and took 1 tiny typo out of context and made it your victory post rofl, seriously grow up.

....

now your pitiful mewlings about strikethrough at least allow you to TANK in DEF stance, and have a substantially higher hit rate than any other tank while doing so, this does not make strike through usless, it makes it useless to you personally , there is a BIG difference which again you cannot seem to grasp.

This again is a factual inaccuracy.  Hit rate will not be substantially higher for a monk because a) plate fighters can go in offensive stance without losing their uncontested avoidance and more importantly b) a vast majority of the mob's avoidance is "dodge" type, which is not affected by strikethrough.  In our last VP visit (first wing parse only) only 4% of the main tank's attacks were parried while 23% of them were dodged.  How will striking through on 2% of our attacks give us a substantially higher hit rate than any other tank? 

[Hummelch]

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

EasternKing wrote:

i play a Brigand

Yes, I noticed that. I noticed that you appear to think your Brigand mythical should be "improved", or something.

I can't help wondering why you think that, given that you think the Monk mythical should remain "sub-par" in order to "balance" the fact that well-geared, highly-skilled Monks can do "amazing things" & thus, apparently, all lesser-geared, lesser-skilled Monks should also suffer as a result.

You see, the exact same things can be said about you Brigands (I've seen Brigands dominate a parse by more than 2k) & we Swashies (last night, consistent DPS leader in Kor-Sha was a Swashy, a good 1k ahead of the Wizzie in spot 2). After all, well-geared & highly-skilled players of both classes can do "amazing things", can we not? Thus, by YOUR OWN LOGIC, our mythicals should be less attractive than we'd like them to be, & thus are probably on par with what the Developers think of us.

If that doesn't show you the gaping hole in your logic, then allow me to point out that your response did nothing to explain why Assassins -- who are capable of doing even more "amazing things" -- shouldn't get the crappiest mythical of all. In short, your "logic" is badly illogical & even, IMO, hypocrisy.

The Brigand, Swashy, & Monk mythicals ALL NEED AN UPGRADE. This is true, regardless of what "amazing things" can be done by the most skilled players of those three classes. Quite frankly, deliberately nerfing an entire class simply because of what the "most skilled" players can accomplish -- whether or not it's been done before -- is one of the single biggest mistakes ANY MMO developer team can make.

LOL is all i can say.

[EQ2Luv]

EasternKing wrote:

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

EasternKing wrote:

i play a Brigand

Yes, I noticed that. I noticed that you appear to think your Brigand mythical should be "improved", or something.

I can't help wondering why you think that, given that you think the Monk mythical should remain "sub-par" in order to "balance" the fact that well-geared, highly-skilled Monks can do "amazing things" & thus, apparently, all lesser-geared, lesser-skilled Monks should also suffer as a result.

You see, the exact same things can be said about you Brigands (I've seen Brigands dominate a parse by more than 2k) & we Swashies (last night, consistent DPS leader in Kor-Sha was a Swashy, a good 1k ahead of the Wizzie in spot 2). After all, well-geared & highly-skilled players of both classes can do "amazing things", can we not? Thus, by YOUR OWN LOGIC, our mythicals should be less attractive than we'd like them to be, & thus are probably on par with what the Developers think of us.

If that doesn't show you the gaping hole in your logic, then allow me to point out that your response did nothing to explain why Assassins -- who are capable of doing even more "amazing things" -- shouldn't get the crappiest mythical of all. In short, your "logic" is badly illogical & even, IMO, hypocrisy.

The Brigand, Swashy, & Monk mythicals ALL NEED AN UPGRADE. This is true, regardless of what "amazing things" can be done by the most skilled players of those three classes. Quite frankly, deliberately nerfing an entire class simply because of what the "most skilled" players can accomplish -- whether or not it's been done before -- is one of the single biggest mistakes ANY MMO developer team can make.

im sorry but you cannot compare a weapon that has 3 effects on it that are 0 use to the class using it at all, to one which actually lets what all the monks were asking for on these boards for months and months, ie to be better tanks

Exaggerate much?  Last I checked brigand's were dps and debuffs and the mythical adds to both.  Its fine if you are not content with it, but please don't exaggerate the usefulness of the monk epic, especially after all the high-end monks you point to have come to this board and posted about how lackluster *their* mythical is. 

[Taiz]

So I checked out the new fury mythical on test.The base % upgrade effected by our wis/int effects our spells across the board by around 2% of average some gain a bit more some only gain 1%. My question is was it meant to be this minimal??  chokers, mayong orb, healing specter from taskmaster, claymore, and that collection earring from RE2 all provide more net gain over any fight.

[EasternKing]

EQ2Luv wrote:

EasternKing wrote:

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

EasternKing wrote:

i play a Brigand

Yes, I noticed that. I noticed that you appear to think your Brigand mythical should be "improved", or something.

I can't help wondering why you think that, given that you think the Monk mythical should remain "sub-par" in order to "balance" the fact that well-geared, highly-skilled Monks can do "amazing things" & thus, apparently, all lesser-geared, lesser-skilled Monks should also suffer as a result.

You see, the exact same things can be said about you Brigands (I've seen Brigands dominate a parse by more than 2k) & we Swashies (last night, consistent DPS leader in Kor-Sha was a Swashy, a good 1k ahead of the Wizzie in spot 2). After all, well-geared & highly-skilled players of both classes can do "amazing things", can we not? Thus, by YOUR OWN LOGIC, our mythicals should be less attractive than we'd like them to be, & thus are probably on par with what the Developers think of us.

If that doesn't show you the gaping hole in your logic, then allow me to point out that your response did nothing to explain why Assassins -- who are capable of doing even more "amazing things" -- shouldn't get the crappiest mythical of all. In short, your "logic" is badly illogical & even, IMO, hypocrisy.

The Brigand, Swashy, & Monk mythicals ALL NEED AN UPGRADE. This is true, regardless of what "amazing things" can be done by the most skilled players of those three classes. Quite frankly, deliberately nerfing an entire class simply because of what the "most skilled" players can accomplish -- whether or not it's been done before -- is one of the single biggest mistakes ANY MMO developer team can make.

im sorry but you cannot compare a weapon that has 3 effects on it that are 0 use to the class using it at all, to one which actually lets what all the monks were asking for on these boards for months and months, ie to be better tanks

Exaggerate much? Last I checked brigand's were dps and debuffs and the mythical adds to both. Its fine if you are not content with it, but please don't exaggerate the usefulness of the monk epic, especially after all the high-end monks you point to have come to this board and posted about how lackluster *their* mythical is.

jeeze do people not read ?10% to debuffs : does nothing, there is 0 diff in raid dps when a raid has a brig mith mythical debuffing, and a brigand without mythcial debuffing, so yes in fact the first effect is usless.30% to rear based ca's :  thats 4 out of 26+ 3 of them 4 are 1min recasts, meaning in an average v peak run, every other fight it get 30% to them 3 ca's, the other is 30sec refresh so i get that every fight, amazing isnt it, or not, it adds about 5 dps to my zw, that makes it usless, it does nothing visable for my dps or for my class. thats 2nd effct usless.40% haste, every brigand with access to there mythical is soft capped in raids, before any temp haste buffs are applied, with them they are hard capped. that makes the 3rd effct usless.the damage proc doesnt over write. so where every non rogue gets to multiple proc there damage we get to proc it once every 12 secs, thats on trash max 3 procs.this makes it usless and to top it off we cant even make it crit cos we get 0 spell crits.the new proposed change to the haste 5% resue on a proc 12 sec duration, is in fact a nerf to what it was originally, i can get 10% static reuse timer, 5% will net me around about 5 dps zw assuming it always is up when i need it, and not when i dont and it mess's up my recast for ca chains meaning i lose dps waiting for them to refresh again.there is nothing mythical at all about either of the rogue weapons, they are both absolute junk, and trust me were already looking for new weapons to replace them.now anymore clarification you need for the brigand mythical, by all means post and ask and i and every other Top end Bring will enlighten you.

[LygerT]

i would just like to point out a few things:

#1) worry about your own mythicals, don't try to reason change to your mythical with balance to another classes mythical.

#2) if you don't have your mythical yet then try to be conservative with your arguments, i am guessing and seeing alot of trolling arguments from people who have not even had a chance to test their mythicals yet BUT those people are still arguing changes to theirs as if they are 100% familiar with the ins and outs of their weapon without having even touched it.

[Trojenn]

Well, I have to agree that both Brigs and Swashis have gotten looked over and passed up with there mythical weapons.

The 30% to rear based attacks are nice for brigs but I think it should also apply to there flanking attacks also. I am not sure though if Brigs are aware that the Avast Ye proc is also increased by the 30% increase.." Check out ACT " . Swashis would gladly trade the brigs for the DD and give them our DoT. But all in all Brigs I feel for ya.

Swashbucklers get a 10% Increase to all CA's. Sounds good in wrighting but in all practicality it is not that awsome. Sack Master I for me is 2800 Damage max with Mythical it would only be giving me at max 200 more damage. woohoo.. The increase to Hate transfer is nice but in all reality since its not constant is a hit and miss opputinity. The 10% Spell Reduction is worthless and furthermore it is even more so worthless that it is attached to a AA Ability that requires us to Specc for T-Swipe.. neways..

PLEASE READ INTO THE EPICS AERALIK .. ROUGES ARE IN DIRE NEED OF SOMETHING TO BE DONE>

[Siatfallen]

EasternKing wrote:

People, myself included, wrote:

stuff

yeah im slow and trolling cos im talking about brawlers DPS in a thread about MYHTICALS which means every single brawler that has access to there mythical means they have access to the best brawler gear, amazing that isnt it!!our guild bruiser is regularly parsing t1-t2 dps, we are top guild on our server, Strikes Monk is regularly pumping t1-t2 dps out, Confirmed's Monk is regularly pumping out t1-t2 dps, they are all managing this t1-t4 raids across the board, i haven't checked or spoken to the brawlers in top guilds on other server's about it, but ANY BRAWLER with his mythical has access to the gear that allows them to produce such obscene dps numbers, so call me slow some more pls, rofl.Xenobe tanks the Tangrin regularly  arguably the HARDEST  encounter in game atm to tank, name me one other class please that can tank the HARDEST fights in game and also produce TIER ONE dps.name me another class that is so obscenely powerful outside of raids.Unless you have our mythical weapon, or are in a guild clearing t4 content,  you have no place posting in this thread about changes to your mythical, or about what dps numbers brawlers are capable of, you simply have 0 valid points of reference,if you do have access to it, you also got access to the best brawler gear in game and everything i have said is also applicable to YOU.now by all means show me the error of my thinking, but dont dissemble, and please dont lie, brawlers are a supremely powerful class.

First, to address your questions, yes I have my mythical and yes the guild I'm in clears VP. We've recently started worrying about Trakanon, but have yet to take him down. On Maestro in SoH. That should tell you pretty much exactly where we are progressionwise. If you know of monks who, on zonewide parses, can hold a candle to a good non-afk assassin DPSing in high-end instances, then by all means link in the parses. I'd have to see it to believe it.If you cannot, then no, brawlers are in fact not pushing out t1 DPS. I figure we're pretty much on par with rogues, until we begin talking multi-mob encounters that do not die within a minute or so (in which case the swashy had better be ahead). One reason, by the way, that we're on par with rogues, is that their mythicals, while sort of okay-ish really aren't more than that. Which means we're really in the same boat here. Explanation coming up, of course.

Now, our mythical, as it stands, does do some neat stuff. Keep in mind, though, that since deflection is calculated late in the avoidance spread, it's inferior to block chance any day of the week; this is compounded by the fact that our defensive (and balanced) stance gives dodge chance (on vacation right now, can't log in to check, please correct me if I'm mistaken), signifigantly lessening the effect of anything later in the spread.Enhanced mit gives somewhere between 9 and 5 % effective damage reduction. The better your gear, the less you'll get out of it. There's a reasonable assumption here that most monks with their mythical will not be in treasured gear and will hence be on the low end of the spread above. Useful? sure. On par with the rest of the fighters for tanking? Not really. Well, mind, we may be better off than the SKs, depending. The class confuses me, since I've rarely see the class in a raiding context in the first place.Strikethrough? That ability is useless, plain and simple, because mobs generally dodge a lot, and don't really, say, parry or deflect much at all, which is what strikethrough helps with.All in all, without any real competition from warriors, paladins or bruisers, monks are on the short end when it comes to tanking. We can tank the Tangrin? Okay, I guess that's great - but every other fighter class out there is better equipped for the job - plate tanks from being plate tanks, and everyone including bruisers from their mythical effects (again, count out the SKs; don't know the class well enough; their mythical could be worse than ours for tankness for all I know).

Okay, as for damage stuff (melee crit, DD + DA proc), no complaints really. Would I like more? Sure, who wouldn't. But, what is there actually, y'know, works.

Solution to this sitation? Simple. The rogues (t2 melee dps classes) need better mythicals. The current ones are ridiculous, and they're part of the reason rogues do not pull ahead of monks on the parse. Monks, on the flipside, should either be brought to about the same place DPSwise (in which case it's about time to name us a scout class along with the socalled conjuror scout pet already), or we should be given effects on par with the rest of the fighter community in regards to tanking.

[EasternKing]

Siatfallen wrote:

EasternKing wrote:

People, myself included, wrote:

stuff

yeah im slow and trolling cos im talking about brawlers DPS in a thread about MYHTICALS which means every single brawler that has access to there mythical means they have access to the best brawler gear, amazing that isnt it!!our guild bruiser is regularly parsing t1-t2 dps, we are top guild on our server, Strikes Monk is regularly pumping t1-t2 dps out, Confirmed's Monk is regularly pumping out t1-t2 dps, they are all managing this t1-t4 raids across the board, i haven't checked or spoken to the brawlers in top guilds on other server's about it, but ANY BRAWLER with his mythical has access to the gear that allows them to produce such obscene dps numbers, so call me slow some more pls, rofl.Xenobe tanks the Tangrin regularly arguably the HARDEST encounter in game atm to tank, name me one other class please that can tank the HARDEST fights in game and also produce TIER ONE dps.name me another class that is so obscenely powerful outside of raids.Unless you have our mythical weapon, or are in a guild clearing t4 content, you have no place posting in this thread about changes to your mythical, or about what dps numbers brawlers are capable of, you simply have 0 valid points of reference,if you do have access to it, you also got access to the best brawler gear in game and everything i have said is also applicable to YOU.now by all means show me the error of my thinking, but dont dissemble, and please dont lie, brawlers are a supremely powerful class.

First, to address your questions, yes I have my mythical and yes the guild I'm in clears VP. We've recently started worrying about Trakanon, but have yet to take him down. On Maestro in SoH. That should tell you pretty much exactly where we are progressionwise. If you know of monks who, on zonewide parses, can hold a candle to a good non-afk assassin DPSing in high-end instances, then by all means link in the parses. I'd have to see it to believe it.If you cannot, then no, brawlers are in fact not pushing out t1 DPS. I figure we're pretty much on par with rogues, until we begin talking multi-mob encounters that do not die within a minute or so (in which case the swashy had better be ahead). One reason, by the way, that we're on par with rogues, is that their mythicals, while sort of okay-ish really aren't more than that. Which means we're really in the same boat here. Explanation coming up, of course.

Now, our mythical, as it stands, does do some neat stuff. Keep in mind, though, that since deflection is calculated late in the avoidance spread, it's inferior to block chance any day of the week; this is compounded by the fact that our defensive (and balanced) stance gives dodge chance (on vacation right now, can't log in to check, please correct me if I'm mistaken), signifigantly lessening the effect of anything later in the spread.Enhanced mit gives somewhere between 9 and 5 % effective damage reduction. The better your gear, the less you'll get out of it. There's a reasonable assumption here that most monks with their mythical will not be in treasured gear and will hence be on the low end of the spread above. Useful? sure. On par with the rest of the fighters for tanking? Not really. Well, mind, we may be better off than the SKs, depending. The class confuses me, since I've rarely see the class in a raiding context in the first place.Strikethrough? That ability is useless, plain and simple, because mobs generally dodge a lot, and don't really, say, parry or deflect much at all, which is what strikethrough helps with.All in all, without any real competition from warriors, paladins or bruisers, monks are on the short end when it comes to tanking. We can tank the Tangrin? Okay, I guess that's great - but every other fighter class out there is better equipped for the job - plate tanks from being plate tanks, and everyone including bruisers from their mythical effects (again, count out the SKs; don't know the class well enough; their mythical could be worse than ours for tankness for all I know).

Okay, as for damage stuff (melee crit, DD + DA proc), no complaints really. Would I like more? Sure, who wouldn't. But, what is there actually, y'know, works.

Solution to this sitation? Simple. The rogues (t2 melee dps classes) need better mythicals. The current ones are ridiculous, and they're part of the reason rogues do not pull ahead of monks on the parse. Monks, on the flipside, should either be brought to about the same place DPSwise (in which case it's about time to name us a scout class along with the socalled conjuror scout pet already), or we should be given effects on par with the rest of the fighter community in regards to tanking.

Thankyou, for taking the time to post, a well thought out and civil reply.what would you like them to change on your mythical ?, i mean idea's here, what would you feel, makes you a better tank, or rather a more viable tank, we both agree you dont need more dps, what could SoE (Aeralik) change that wouldnt imbalance your class completley.now im not trying to be mr wise guy, im actually genuinely curious what you feel would make your mythical " mythical" without making you > every other fighter.

[Argul]

Infusion without power cost would be nice, for furies. Just as OP as some of the other mythicals.

[Kinadin]

Argul@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Infusion without power cost would be nice, for furies. Just as OP as some of the other mythicals.

That would be nice.Or, how about halfing the recast on turtle shell?

[Argul]

Kinadin wrote:

Argul@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Infusion without power cost would be nice, for furies. Just as OP as some of the other mythicals.

That would be nice.Or, how about halfing the recast on turtle shell?

Meh, that'd be kind of one-sided considering both druids can use it. That and not all furies use turtle shell, a few have serenity (which I spec for sometimes, instead of turtle shell). Plus on the fights you do use turtle shell on, you can just get a quick Jcap. /shrug

[ATLDawgy]

Siatfallen wrote:

EasternKing wrote:

People, myself included, wrote:

stuff

yeah im slow and trolling cos im talking about brawlers DPS in a thread about MYHTICALS which means every single brawler that has access to there mythical means they have access to the best brawler gear, amazing that isnt it!!our guild bruiser is regularly parsing t1-t2 dps, we are top guild on our server, Strikes Monk is regularly pumping t1-t2 dps out, Confirmed's Monk is regularly pumping out t1-t2 dps, they are all managing this t1-t4 raids across the board, i haven't checked or spoken to the brawlers in top guilds on other server's about it, but ANY BRAWLER with his mythical has access to the gear that allows them to produce such obscene dps numbers, so call me slow some more pls, rofl.Xenobe tanks the Tangrin regularly  arguably the HARDEST  encounter in game atm to tank, name me one other class please that can tank the HARDEST fights in game and also produce TIER ONE dps.name me another class that is so obscenely powerful outside of raids.Unless you have our mythical weapon, or are in a guild clearing t4 content,  you have no place posting in this thread about changes to your mythical, or about what dps numbers brawlers are capable of, you simply have 0 valid points of reference,if you do have access to it, you also got access to the best brawler gear in game and everything i have said is also applicable to YOU.now by all means show me the error of my thinking, but dont dissemble, and please dont lie, brawlers are a supremely powerful class.

First, to address your questions, yes I have my mythical and yes the guild I'm in clears VP. We've recently started worrying about Trakanon, but have yet to take him down. On Maestro in SoH. That should tell you pretty much exactly where we are progressionwise. If you know of monks who, on zonewide parses, can hold a candle to a good non-afk assassin DPSing in high-end instances, then by all means link in the parses. I'd have to see it to believe it.If you cannot, then no, brawlers are in fact not pushing out t1 DPS. I figure we're pretty much on par with rogues, until we begin talking multi-mob encounters that do not die within a minute or so (in which case the swashy had better be ahead). One reason, by the way, that we're on par with rogues, is that their mythicals, while sort of okay-ish really aren't more than that. Which means we're really in the same boat here. Explanation coming up, of course.

Now, our mythical, as it stands, does do some neat stuff. Keep in mind, though, that since deflection is calculated late in the avoidance spread, it's inferior to block chance any day of the week; this is compounded by the fact that our defensive (and balanced) stance gives dodge chance (on vacation right now, can't log in to check, please correct me if I'm mistaken), signifigantly lessening the effect of anything later in the spread.Enhanced mit gives somewhere between 9 and 5 % effective damage reduction. The better your gear, the less you'll get out of it. There's a reasonable assumption here that most monks with their mythical will not be in treasured gear and will hence be on the low end of the spread above. Useful? sure. On par with the rest of the fighters for tanking? Not really. Well, mind, we may be better off than the SKs, depending. The class confuses me, since I've rarely see the class in a raiding context in the first place.Strikethrough? That ability is useless, plain and simple, because mobs generally dodge a lot, and don't really, say, parry or deflect much at all, which is what strikethrough helps with.All in all, without any real competition from warriors, paladins or bruisers, monks are on the short end when it comes to tanking. We can tank the Tangrin? Okay, I guess that's great - but every other fighter class out there is better equipped for the job - plate tanks from being plate tanks, and everyone including bruisers from their mythical effects (again, count out the SKs; don't know the class well enough; their mythical could be worse than ours for tankness for all I know).

Okay, as for damage stuff (melee crit, DD + DA proc), no complaints really. Would I like more? Sure, who wouldn't. But, what is there actually, y'know, works.

Solution to this sitation? Simple. The rogues (t2 melee dps classes) need better mythicals. The current ones are ridiculous, and they're part of the reason rogues do not pull ahead of monks on the parse. Monks, on the flipside, should either be brought to about the same place DPSwise (in which case it's about time to name us a scout class along with the socalled conjuror scout pet already), or we should be given effects on par with the rest of the fighter community in regards to tanking.

For me personally, the glaring problem when comparing Monk and Bruiser Mythicals is the Monk mitigation boost vs the Bruiser clicky uber Tsunami.  It's not just the Tsunami effect, but the heals that come with it.  A 10.2% heal of max health upon click followed by a 5.1% every second for the duration (10 seconds).  If you have 10K HP for math's sake that's a heal for 1020 upon click then a 510 heal every second until the effect ends.  That's pretty darn nice for survivability when tanking and soloing when compared to having no heal effect at all on Monk Tsunami.  The Monk mitigation increase to "chain" just doesn't seem to equate to the benefit of having Tsunami + Heal on a 6 minute reuse timer.

Also, any benefit gained from Strikethrough while tanking is only relevant for added DPS to help with hate.  After all, the tank's job isn't to DPS the mob it's to hold aggro so DPS is only a means to an end.  The Bruiser Mythical gives the huge bonus taunt (3K hate) with each damage proc while the mob is facing the Bruiser.  That added hate more than beats any additional hate/dps gained from Strikethrough.

So EasternKing, most Monks are not screaming for more DPS just for the sake of topping parse.  I'm sorry if that's your misunderstanding for our displeasure with the Strikethrough effect.  We just want the Mythical to be on par with other fighter Mythicals for helping do our job which ultimately is tanking until SOE decides to reclassify us as scouts like Siatfallen mentioned.  And no, I do not have my Mythical yet (need VS and VP updates), but just by reading the descriptions one can see the disadvantage of the Monk Mythical to the Bruiser Mythical in both tanking and dps departments.  The devs did the right thing giving the Bruiser Mythical the melee crit proc added to the damage proc.  I'm curious to see how much of an increase the melee proc gets.  Monks get an additional 15% chance to double attack for 12 seconds.  How does the mean melee crit damage compare to the mean double attack damage?  And no, I don't want their Mythical nerfed, I want to see the Monk Mythical enhanced.  Like I said in a previous post, all class Mythicals should be uber otherwise there's no point in calling them Mythical.  Good luck on getting the Brigand Mythical enhanced to fit your needs/desires.

[Todra_B]

For the Fury Mythical I would like to see:

1. The removal of stuns from any abilities that stun us for the duration of the spell. (If Guardians can get the shield restriction removed from their AA we can get this.)

2. A clicky uber "save your tail" raid wide heal. Instant cast; Heal based on 20% of caster max health plus a 5% HOT every 2 sec for 20 seconds with a 5 minute recast. ( For those pesky monster aoe's the big guys like to throw at raiders.)

This in addition to the afore mentioned changes.

[Siatfallen]

EasternKing wrote:

Thankyou, for taking the time to post, a well thought out and civil reply.what would you like them to change on your mythical ?, i mean idea's here, what would you feel, makes you a better tank, or rather a more viable tank, we both agree you dont need more dps, what could SoE (Aeralik) change that wouldnt imbalance your class completley.now im not trying to be mr wise guy, im actually genuinely curious what you feel would make your mythical " mythical" without making you > every other fighter.

There are a few options, some of which I'll try to go over here. Just my ramblings again, really.First of all, I do not think making us a DPS (or scout, whatever you want to call it) class is a bad or wrong move per se - but if that's what they're going to do, then they should tell us so. Personally, I'd be perfectly happy with it. Assuming for a second that this is not the route they want for the brawler subclass (I do think this something of an assumption), let's look at the tanking department:The first thing that comes to mind is changing the chain mit to be a flat percentage in damage reduction. Why? Because frankly, while making gear that will help you less and less the better gear you get may be viable for group instance loot or possibly t1 raiding, it is certainly not a good idea at all when it comes to the mythical weapon. This is not going to make or break the class, but it would actually make the ability more easily comparable to what is otherwise in the game. We can talk percentages. I personally think 10% would be about right, but at this point, if, say, 7% is better balancewise, so be it. It also really depends on what is done with strikethrough. Which leads me to:On top of this, then, change strikethrough to something else that will actually make a difference. This could be a few things. One option mentioned often is to give a version of the str line while using the mythical, with reduced DA as a matter of course, but I don't like this idea much personally; while the brawler str line desperately needs some looking into, I do not believe this will be a valid solution. Especially not if this change is not going to benefit the bruiser population (!) - whose problems, although numerous, does not really lie with their mythical if the present changes make it to the live servers.Additionally, introducing this kind of boost would be giving too many small bonuses in too many places. I simply have trouble seeing exactly what, down the line, this is going to mean in regards to class balance.More realistically, if and only if the change is made to our chain mit effect to make it a flat percentile effect, then changing strikethrough to remove the root effect from our self-mit buff, or to change the self-stun one to a self-stifle might be an idea. The main problem, of course, if that this might give us plate mit more or less permanently (especially if both changes are implemented). In the end, it may be overpowered, and I do not think brawlers should get too much of a mitigation bonus in the first place. It's supposed to be our weak side tank-wise and as much as it has crippled us for as long as I've been raiding, that's just how it's supposed to work. We can talk (/whine) about the problems of plate tanks having more avoidance than brawlers some other time.Another idea could be to remove the negative effects of our defensive stance (decrease in attack skills). This would effectively make the def. stance much more viable to the tanking monk. At the moment, the argument for not using the t1 version of the defensive stance over the current-tier one is virtually nonexistant on raids - and it would clearly mark the weapon as a defensive one.The downside? We have a balanced stance already. IF this change was implemented, that one would be even less relevant, not that I really use it for much of anything in the first place. I think, personally, that this is quite acceptable, but it does bother me. Also, the change may simply end up not doing much of any good, I can't say I'm entirely sure.A final suggestion, which I like a lot in principle but remain unsure on the mechanics of, would be the following: Make any successful avoidance check (or maybe dodge only) made by the monk result in a riposte (or a fairly large damage proc) on the mob trying to hit the monk. This is absolutely only applicable when the monk is tanking as a matter of course, and as opposed to strikethrough, it may make an actual difference. One reason I'm not sure about this change is tranquil vision (our avoidance buff). With the current mechanics, I suspect it may start triggering whenever the monk dodges an attack for the MT - which may be fine, since this will be a lot less often than when tanking, making balancing the effect a tad easier.The reason I like this change, really, is because it'd emphasise the avoidance part of brawler tanking, which is needed at this point, and because it stays somewhat true to the original idea behind strikethrough, without giving monks (much?) more DPS in DPS mode. The reason I'm less than sure about it is, I'm not sure how the numbers would have to work out to balance it properly.

[RogueSpideyChick]

Argul@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Infusion without power cost would be nice, for furies. Just as OP as some of the other mythicals.

furies with their mythicals r most likely in guilds with illy mythicals. NO power issues at all when u have an illy in group with theirs, so it would be pretty much useless to take away the power cost for infusion.

[Argul]

Arica@Kithicor wrote:

Argul@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Infusion without power cost would be nice, for furies. Just as OP as some of the other mythicals.

furies with their mythicals r most likely in guilds with illy mythicals. NO power issues at all when u have an illy in group with theirs, so it would be pretty much useless to take away the power cost for infusion.

True, I know exactly what you mean, as my own boyfriend is our illusionist (haha), but there are times when my power does get low-ish, and I don't want to have to worry about putting on either power proc gear or clicking off infusion. But that is an excellent point.

[mr23sgte]

News Flash: You forgot the Monk Epic weapon Upgrade.

"This is the weapon you nerfed shortly after launch"

[EQ2Luv]

mr23sgte wrote:

News Flash: You forgot the Monk Epic weapon Upgrade.

"This is the weapon you nerfed shortly after launch"

You forgot "and then made even less useful when you increased melee hit rates/reduced mob parry rates."

[Junaru]

For the record not everyone with a mythical has cleared VP. My guild has just started on T3 zones and still having trouble in T2 zone, yet this weekend I'll have my mythical thanks to friends and another guild. I don't have my mythical yet but it doesn't take one to crunch the numbers and see that is it useless in it's current form. Now for the feedback for Strikethrough. Make it work on ALL avoidance types but ONLY when in front of the mob. If you meant for it to be used for tanking then this solves that problem. But in the end leaving the Monk mythical the way it is, is just wrong. While you are making adjustments to the mythical weapons you might as well balance the Monk one also. Lord know it will be forever and a day before you ever touch them again. Also the whole "effective as chain" needs to be looked at. Not only is it 3% less then Bruisers but also only works on melee damage. Make it 15% incoming melee damage OR 10% incoming damage to even it out.

[kyrr]

Azzaroth@Valor wrote:

just checked the changes to the paladin and Sk Mythical on the test server

changes are the same just to one thing.

while the Sk has added the proc to the Seething hatred proc (procchance 2.4) the paladin weapon got an standalone proc chance of 3.0

both proc chances can not be modified.

short question... why ?

None of the mythicals allow you to modify the proc chance afaik.  The exact wording is "Cannot be modified except by direct means".  Mystics get a buff that helps improve proc rates as an AA. I always use it on myself (lots of proc healing gear) and it doesn't work for my DA proc.All I can say is there aren't that many raiding mystics left. This nerf is upsetting enough that some will leave diminishing our numbers further. I suppose the dog fix that was promised a year ago finally making it in is supposed to smooth the ruffled feathers.  Not likely.In short leave my mythical alone. Make the ones that aren't as good better. (Hint: LISTEN to the players!!!)    Novel idea I know.

[Ahlana]

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

Isn't it interesting that the only players who don't seem to be raising a stink about their mythical seem to be the Assassins?

I wonder why.

Hey now, there are plenty of complaints about the way it looks :X