SOE does listen to Customers - Page 2

BlackW · 02-23-2005, 05:22 AM

Tulmo wrote:

Okay, okay, Blackweb. We get it, You're upset that your horse was adjusted. Mine was adjusted to, and so was every other Paladin's out there.

As much as I hate that the real reason the horse was changed in this manner was because of class envy and whining, the rationale behind the change was logical and appropriate.

Fact: The Fluff spells were never intended to give any one class an advantage over another.

Fact: The Holy Steed with the 32% run speed adjustment provided a distinct advantage over other classes.

Fact: Even after the adjustment, a 10% run speed adjustment is still far and away more useful than the other classes' fluff spells.

You can argue this until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the facts. I know, I know - the Paladin is "defined" by the horse, right? Well I disagree. And it would appear that SOE does, as well. In either case, the horse is still there, so if having a horse defines the class for you, then you should be happy.

Honestly, I'm sick to death of seeing these God-forsaken horse threads all over this forum. The Paladin class is alive and well and I, for one, really enjoy playing my Paladin. Let's please stop the whining.

There is something you do not understand. Other classes get an automatic 10% speed buff when running on foot. Paladins do not, our Holy Nag is supposed to give it to us. The Holy Nag is not even a buff, it just makes us even with other classes. Last night while running on foot with a group in nek, I kept getting left behind and no we did not have any scouts in the group.

Drop the Holy Nag and give us the same run buff that other classes have. If they buff the Holy Nag by 20% that will give us an actual speed buff over other classes normal run speed of 10%.

If you dont believe me, try keeping up with other classes on foot. You cant. We are double nerfed, a slow horse and even slower on foot. The Holy Nag just makes us even with other classes, it is no buff at all.

Gaige · 02-23-2005, 08:14 AM

BlackWeb wrote:

Tulmo wrote:

Okay, okay, Blackweb. We get it, You're upset that your horse was adjusted. Mine was adjusted to, and so was every other Paladin's out there.

As much as I hate that the real reason the horse was changed in this manner was because of class envy and whining, the rationale behind the change was logical and appropriate.

Fact: The Fluff spells were never intended to give any one class an advantage over another.

Fact: The Holy Steed with the 32% run speed adjustment provided a distinct advantage over other classes.

Fact: Even after the adjustment, a 10% run speed adjustment is still far and away more useful than the other classes' fluff spells.

You can argue this until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the facts. I know, I know - the Paladin is "defined" by the horse, right? Well I disagree. And it would appear that SOE does, as well. In either case, the horse is still there, so if having a horse defines the class for you, then you should be happy.

Honestly, I'm sick to death of seeing these God-forsaken horse threads all over this forum. The Paladin class is alive and well and I, for one, really enjoy playing my Paladin. Let's please stop the whining.

There is something you do not understand. Other classes get an automatic 10% speed buff when running on foot. Paladins do not, our Holy Nag is supposed to give it to us. The Holy Nag is not even a buff, it just makes us even with other classes. Last night while running on foot with a group in nek, I kept getting left behind and no we did not have any scouts in the group.

Drop the Holy Nag and give us the same run buff that other classes have. If they buff the Holy Nag by 20% that will give us an actual speed buff over other classes normal run speed of 10%.

If you dont believe me, try keeping up with other classes on foot. You cant. We are double nerfed, a slow horse and even slower on foot. The Holy Nag just makes us even with other classes, it is no buff at all.

WRONG. The 10% speed is the same as preorder jboots, its most certainly NOT as fast as normal run speed. In fact pathfinding is only 16%, so your "fluff" spell is a little more than half as good as the scout's intended run speed enhancement.

Tul · 02-23-2005, 09:51 AM

From Coytee (in orange):

As much as I hate that the real reason the horse was changed in this manner was because of class envy and whining, the rationale behind the change was logical and appropriate. Opinion

Of course it was my opinion, just like your words are YOUR opinion. Sniping at other posters like this helps nothing.

This was not an advantage It was a convinience. I have never heared a convincing argument for an actual balance issue. In no way did this make me a supreme tank or effect the level of mob I could solo.

I believe you're deluding yourself if you don't believe a run-speed buff wasn't an advantage. At 32%, as many have noted, you were that much safer in running from mobs, for example. And your travel time was greatly reduced. But please consider your own words - if it was merely a convenience, then it wouldn't seem like it should be a big deal now that it's simply LESS convenient.

Honestly if you want to correctly potray the life of a "Knight" we should get the best food free, our rooms free our armor free the finest war horses free as Knights were in the service of the Monarchy and there were many many perks.

I couldn't care less about correctly portraying the life of a "knight." That's a secondary issue that many have held up as a strawman in the face of a compelling logical argument.

Most Pallys, it seems to me enjoyed the image of the Knight on His Holy Steed more than anything the Horse minus the speed buff is Lame no self respecting Knoght would ride a gimped horse, I think thats why most are upset. Knights are supposed to be priveleged, they were like the pro-athletes of their time could you see Michale Jordan driving a Saturn ? He wouldnt for much the same reason. Its still a valid issue, and Ii see both sides of it. I encourage everyone to search your soul as to why you think its so important that the Paladin not be priveledged. A fast desirable Horse fits the Knighly -Paladin image perfect. And for the Record Ill trade my Old horse for a Tower Shield and Hold the Line if anyone can work that.

If the issue is just "image" then you should be fine. The horse is still there, with a 10% run-speed buff. It doesn't matter what Michael Jordan does. You simply have to realize that historical accuracy must bow to game design. I would suggest you search your own soul as to why you would say some players deserve privileges over other players, because that's at the core of the matter, not your (or my) opinion of what a historical knight should be.

From Blackweb:

There is something you do not understand. Other classes get an automatic 10% speed buff when running on foot. Paladins do not, our Holy Nag is supposed to give it to us. The Holy Nag is not even a buff, it just makes us even with other classes. Last night while running on foot with a group in nek, I kept getting left behind and no we did not have any scouts in the group.

Drop the Holy Nag and give us the same run buff that other classes have. If they buff the Holy Nag by 20% that will give us an actual speed buff over other classes normal run speed of 10%.

If you dont believe me, try keeping up with other classes on foot. You cant. We are double nerfed, a slow horse and even slower on foot. The Holy Nag just makes us even with other classes, it is no buff at all.

I tested run speed with a Templar friend tonight. We both ran without our j-boots, and we both were neck and neck (no sprinting). With my Holy Steed active, I slowly but surely outpaced him. That would seem to lay your assertion to rest. If there is some other problem that is hampering your run speed, then that's a separate issue. But I believe you're wrong if you believe the other classes are faster.

Trust me ... I understand. I understand that game balance and fairness must trump flawed understandings of the concept of the EQ2 knight. I also understand that the way this happened was nasty and contentious and yes, I agree that the adjustment came at the behest of many who stooped to whining, and that stings. Be that as it may, the adjustment still needed to be made.

BlackW · 02-23-2005, 10:59 AM

Tulmo wrote:

From Coytee (in orange):

As much as I hate that the real reason the horse was changed in this manner was because of class envy and whining, the rationale behind the change was logical and appropriate. Opinion

Of course it was my opinion, just like your words are YOUR opinion. Sniping at other posters like this helps nothing.

This was not an advantage It was a convinience. I have never heared a convincing argument for an actual balance issue. In no way did this make me a supreme tank or effect the level of mob I could solo.

I believe you're deluding yourself if you don't believe a run-speed buff wasn't an advantage. At 32%, as many have noted, you were that much safer in running from mobs, for example. And your travel time was greatly reduced. But please consider your own words - if it was merely a convenience, then it wouldn't seem like it should be a big deal now that it's simply LESS convenient.

Honestly if you want to correctly potray the life of a "Knight" we should get the best food free, our rooms free our armor free the finest war horses free as Knights were in the service of the Monarchy and there were many many perks.

I couldn't care less about correctly portraying the life of a "knight." That's a secondary issue that many have held up as a strawman in the face of a compelling logical argument.

Most Pallys, it seems to me enjoyed the image of the Knight on His Holy Steed more than anything the Horse minus the speed buff is Lame no self respecting Knoght would ride a gimped horse, I think thats why most are upset. Knights are supposed to be priveleged, they were like the pro-athletes of their time could you see Michale Jordan driving a Saturn ? He wouldnt for much the same reason. Its still a valid issue, and Ii see both sides of it. I encourage everyone to search your soul as to why you think its so important that the Paladin not be priveledged. A fast desirable Horse fits the Knighly -Paladin image perfect. And for the Record Ill trade my Old horse for a Tower Shield and Hold the Line if anyone can work that.

If the issue is just "image" then you should be fine. The horse is still there, with a 10% run-speed buff. It doesn't matter what Michael Jordan does. You simply have to realize that historical accuracy must bow to game design. I would suggest you search your own soul as to why you would say some players deserve privileges over other players, because that's at the core of the matter, not your (or my) opinion of what a historical knight should be.

From Blackweb:

There is something you do not understand. Other classes get an automatic 10% speed buff when running on foot. Paladins do not, our Holy Nag is supposed to give it to us. The Holy Nag is not even a buff, it just makes us even with other classes. Last night while running on foot with a group in nek, I kept getting left behind and no we did not have any scouts in the group.

Drop the Holy Nag and give us the same run buff that other classes have. If they buff the Holy Nag by 20% that will give us an actual speed buff over other classes normal run speed of 10%.

If you dont believe me, try keeping up with other classes on foot. You cant. We are double nerfed, a slow horse and even slower on foot. The Holy Nag just makes us even with other classes, it is no buff at all.

I tested run speed with a Templar friend tonight. We both ran without our j-boots, and we both were neck and neck (no sprinting). With my Holy Steed active, I slowly but surely outpaced him. That would seem to lay your assertion to rest. If there is some other problem that is hampering your run speed, then that's a separate issue. But I believe you're wrong if you believe the other classes are faster.

Trust me ... I understand. I understand that game balance and fairness must trump flawed understandings of the concept of the EQ2 knight. I also understand that the way this happened was nasty and contentious and yes, I agree that the adjustment came at the behest of many who stooped to whining, and that stings. Be that as it may, the adjustment still needed to be made.

Take off the Jboots and try it again.

Gaige · 02-23-2005, 11:36 AM

I tested run speed with a Templar friend tonight. We both ran without our j-boots, and we both were neck and neck (no sprinting). With my Holy Steed active, I slowly but surely outpaced him. That would seem to lay your assertion to rest. If there is some other problem that is hampering your run speed, then that's a separate issue. But I believe you're wrong if you believe the other classes are faster.

Trust me ... I understand. I understand that game balance and fairness must trump flawed understandings of the concept of the EQ2 knight. I also understand that the way this happened was nasty and contentious and yes, I agree that the adjustment came at the behest of many who stooped to whining, and that stings. Be that as it may, the adjustment still needed to be made.

Take off the Jboots and try it again.

Without = they were already taken off.

Wintero · 02-23-2005, 11:53 AM

I for one could really care less about nerfing the speed. Honestly, how does that "hurt" your game play? It takes you a little longer to run somewhere? Please stop giving honorable Paladin's a bad reputation with whining. An honorable preson would work with what they have.

BlackW · 02-23-2005, 12:14 PM

Winterorb wrote:

I for one could really care less about nerfing the speed. Honestly, how does that "hurt" your game play? It takes you a little longer to run somewhere? Please stop giving honorable Paladin's a bad reputation with whining. An honorable preson would work with what they have.

Where is PvP in EQ2 when you need it? I just died on zek because my Holy Nag was too slow to escape. Who are you to question my honor? You do not even know me and after such an insult, I do not care to know you. This is the forum, not the game. Save the roleplaying for the game.

Wintero · 02-23-2005, 12:37 PM

I'm saying you come off as a whiner. Forget the roleplay part...in real life are you going to whine to your boss that the stapler he gave you now has less sharp staples? No live with it, figure out another way. I can escape without using my mount. When a mob is kicking my hind end, im dead before i can even get the spell off much less attempt to run away on it. Its a FLUFF spell. I'm hoping maybe later on they will implement a steed we can earn etc. If not then, oh well i'll run just like every other toon has to. Or maybe you would have preferred we got a spell to make someone else dance? I have no patience with people who whine to try and get their way.

Tue · 02-23-2005, 01:23 PM

Why do u think ur fluff spell should give u a advantage? The spell is just for looks. Im a illusionist i get illusions to look like u guys, Its just for fun and looks, it doesnt benifit me at all to be in a different form at all why do u think urs should benifit u beside the look factor? U want a horse that has faster speed then u have to save ur money and buy a real horse just like the rest of us. If ur fluff spell benifits u all of our fluff spells should benifit everyone but thats not the case cuz they are just FOR LOOKS.

Coyt · 02-23-2005, 06:49 PM

Tulmo wrote:

From Coytee (in orange):

As much as I hate that the real reason the horse was changed in this manner was because of class envy and whining, the rationale behind the change was logical and appropriate. Opinion

Of course it was my opinion, just like your words are YOUR opinion. Sniping at other posters like this helps nothing.

Because I dissagree with your post and choose to anylise it catagoricaly to avoid cofusion, to adress each statement individualy in a logical manner I am now subject to being tagged with a negative label as a Sniper ?

This was not an advantage It was a convinience. I have never heared a convincing argument for an actual balance issue. In no way did this make me a supreme tank or effect the level of mob I could solo.

I believe you're deluding yourself if you don't believe a run-speed buff wasn't an advantage. At 32%, as many have noted, you were that much safer in running from mobs, for example. And your travel time was greatly reduced. But please consider your own words - if it was merely a convenience, then it wouldn't seem like it should be a big deal now that it's simply LESS convenient.

Still waiting for the imbalance argument. Anyone can run +32%. So by your logic , anyone with a power pool buff and or a provisioner that can make the best food and sprint longer than you is imbalanced and should be nerfed ?

Honestly if you want to correctly potray the life of a "Knight" we should get the best food free, our rooms free our armor free the finest war horses free as Knights were in the service of the Monarchy and there were many many perks.

I couldn't care less about correctly portraying the life of a "knight." That's a secondary issue that many have held up as a strawman in the face of a compelling logical argument.

Its a role playing game its about defining the archetype and its image. That is infact the whole point.

So, lets take Sow from the Druids , and Pathfinding from the Scouts cause you could care less about portraying the Druid and Ranger class accurately too I hope, and Pathfinding doesnt even go with a Swashbuckler / Brigand so thats got to go. Oh and all the evac has to go too cause its not fair to me.

Most Pallys, it seems to me enjoyed the image of the Knight on His Holy Steed more than anything the Horse minus the speed buff is Lame no self respecting Knoght would ride a gimped horse, I think thats why most are upset. Knights are supposed to be priveleged, they were like the pro-athletes of their time could you see Michale Jordan driving a Saturn ? He wouldnt for much the same reason. Its still a valid issue, and Ii see both sides of it. I encourage everyone to search your soul as to why you think its so important that the Paladin not be priveledged. A fast desirable Horse fits the Knighly -Paladin image perfect. And for the Record Ill trade my Old horse for a Tower Shield and Hold the Line if anyone can work that.

If the issue is just "image" then you should be fine. The horse is still there, with a 10% run-speed buff. It doesn't matter what Michael Jordan does. You simply have to realize that historical accuracy must bow to game design. I would suggest you search your own soul as to why you would say some players deserve privileges over other players, because that's at the core of the matter, not your (or my) opinion of what a historical knight should be.

Could you have missed the point more ? When every 3rd level 20 crafter twink is running around on a better horse than the Pally (see it alot on Mistmoore). "Gimpy the Wonder Mule" is a joke and does nothing to promote the image.

If someone gave you a car that went 25mph top speed, would you drive it ? Hey its faster than walking. Its like putting a full leather clad tatooed hairy musclebound biker on a [Removed for Content] Moped how can people not see that ?

From Blackweb:

There is something you do not understand. Other classes get an automatic 10% speed buff when running on foot. Paladins do not, our Holy Nag is supposed to give it to us. The Holy Nag is not even a buff, it just makes us even with other classes. Last night while running on foot with a group in nek, I kept getting left behind and no we did not have any scouts in the group.

Drop the Holy Nag and give us the same run buff that other classes have. If they buff the Holy Nag by 20% that will give us an actual speed buff over other classes normal run speed of 10%.

If you dont believe me, try keeping up with other classes on foot. You cant. We are double nerfed, a slow horse and even slower on foot. The Holy Nag just makes us even with other classes, it is no buff at all.

I tested run speed with a Templar friend tonight. We both ran without our j-boots, and we both were neck and neck (no sprinting). With my Holy Steed active, I slowly but surely outpaced him. That would seem to lay your assertion to rest. If there is some other problem that is hampering your run speed, then that's a separate issue. But I believe you're wrong if you believe the other classes are faster.

Trust me ... I understand. I understand that game balance and fairness must trump flawed understandings of the concept of the EQ2 knight. I also understand that the way this happened was nasty and contentious and yes, I agree that the adjustment came at the behest of many who stooped to whining, and that stings. Be that as it may, the adjustment still needed to be made.

BlackW · 02-23-2005, 07:23 PM

Gage-Mikel wrote:

I tested run speed with a Templar friend tonight. We both ran without our j-boots, and we both were neck and neck (no sprinting). With my Holy Steed active, I slowly but surely outpaced him. That would seem to lay your assertion to rest. If there is some other problem that is hampering your run speed, then that's a separate issue. But I believe you're wrong if you believe the other classes are faster.

Trust me ... I understand. I understand that game balance and fairness must trump flawed understandings of the concept of the EQ2 knight. I also understand that the way this happened was nasty and contentious and yes, I agree that the adjustment came at the behest of many who stooped to whining, and that stings. Be that as it may, the adjustment still needed to be made.

Take off the Jboots and try it again.

Without = they were already taken off.

Were you grouped? Try it solo.

BlackW · 02-23-2005, 07:24 PM

Winterorb wrote:

I'm saying you come off as a whiner. Forget the roleplay part...in real life are you going to whine to your boss that the stapler he gave you now has less sharp staples? No live with it, figure out another way. I can escape without using my mount. When a mob is kicking my hind end, im dead before i can even get the spell off much less attempt to run away on it. Its a FLUFF spell. I'm hoping maybe later on they will implement a steed we can earn etc. If not then, oh well i'll run just like every other toon has to. Or maybe you would have preferred we got a spell to make someone else dance? I have no patience with people who whine to try and get their way.

I have no patience with someone who questions my honor without reason. I am no longer listening to you. Go troll elsewhere.

Gaige · 02-23-2005, 09:15 PM

BlackWeb wrote:

Were you grouped? Try it solo.

How is being grouped relevant to runspeed? Especially between a Pally and a Wizzie? It seems you are really reaching for straws SMILEY

Tul · 02-23-2005, 11:38 PM

From Coytee:

Because I dissagree with your post and choose to anylise it catagoricaly to avoid cofusion, to adress each statement individualy in a logical manner I am now subject to being tagged with a negative label as a Sniper ?

I'm going to bet that this will be ignored, but it's not that you disagree, it's how you disagreed. If I quoted you and put a little red "opinion" label after your words, I'd bet you'd get pretty bent out of shape. But for the sake of argument, I'll try to assume you weren't being snippy, and only chose to point out the obvious. Now we can be friends again.

Still waiting for the imbalance argument. Anyone can run +32%. So by your logic , anyone with a power pool buff and or a provisioner that can make the best food and sprint longer than you is imbalanced and should be nerfed ?

Okay, here it is - again - the archetypes and classes are balanced in terms of the relative strengths they bring to the table. Fighters have a great deal of physical strength and stamina, and are obviously primarily melee characters. As such, they don't get the degree of magical or movement abilities that other classes get. The same with Mages. They have very high magical abilities, but don't have the resistance to physical damage we have. It's balance. It's pure common sense.

And please don't misrepresent my logic. The power pool buffs and food/drink buffs are factored into the current balance. It's all part of the plan. And everybody has access to those same options, whether by grouping with the characters than can provide the buffs or by purchasing the food/drink.

If you say that the Paladin having a 32% run-speed buff isn't imbalance, that it's merely convenience, then why the gnashing of teeth that the convenience is now only a little less convenient?

So, lets take Sow from the Druids , and Pathfinding from the Scouts cause you could care less about portraying the Druid and Ranger class accurately too I hope, and Pathfinding doesnt even go with a Swashbuckler / Brigand so thats got to go. Oh and all the evac has to go too cause its not fair to me.

You're clearly resisting plain logic here. If you take this and that from every class because you don't think it's fair, you'll end up with everybody being the SAME. You chose to play a Paladin for some reason. If it was because you got a horse at level 20, then rejoice! You've still got the horse, and it's still convenient. If you chose Paladin because you assumed you'd have the powers of a Druid, or of a Swashbuckler, then you chose poorly. Perhaps it'd be worth your time to review the class descriptions on the Everquest2.com page again.

Could you have missed the point more ? When every 3rd level 20 crafter twink is running around on a better horse than the Pally (see it alot on Mistmoore). "Gimpy the Wonder Mule" is a joke and does nothing to promote the image.

If someone gave you a car that went 25mph top speed, would you drive it ? Hey its faster than walking. Its like putting a full leather clad tatooed hairy musclebound biker on a [Removed for Content] Moped how can people not see that ?

Trust me, I'm not the one missing points here. The key point is, game balance is the primary factor regarding what class gets what. The game is designed so that there is some degree of class dependency. Otherwise, we'd all be able to wear heavy armor AND cast high-damage spells AND heal ourselves and others AND backstab AND cast run speed buffs on ourselves, etc. If that's what you are after, then I'm sorry to say Everquest2 just might not be the best game for you. The archetype balance has been spelled out by many more eloquent than I - and it's been there since before the game was launched.

Many of you have said that you don't feel there was an imbalance issue with the Holy Steed. Ask yourselves how you might feel if Guardians were given a horse right now that was twice as fast as our horse. I bet you'd be angry and upset, wouldn't you? But as you said, it's only a convenience, it's not game balance, right? It wouldn't matter that the horse was faster than ours. Right?

Blackweb, I don't know what to do with you. As I told you, my Templar friend and I both tested our run speeds against the other by, well, running WITHOUT J-BOOTS. I was fairly sure I was clear about that, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. With my horse, I gradually outpaced him. Now, if your mileage varies, perhaps there are other factors at work, but at this time I, myself, do not believe the horse is slower than standard run speed, as you suggested. I think it's really time to let this go. If nothing else, console yourself with the notion that you can now play "Gotcha!" with some of the other classes when it turns out that some imbalancing factor weighs in their favor. And you can clamor and clang until your heart's content.

BlackW · 02-24-2005, 12:00 AM

Gage-Mikel wrote:

BlackWeb wrote:

Were you grouped? Try it solo.

How is being grouped relevant to runspeed? Especially between a Pally and a Wizzie? It seems you are really reaching for straws

Solo run speed is calculated differently from group run speed. Try it solo.

Coyt · 02-24-2005, 12:31 AM

We explained up front that these spells were meant for nothing more than flavor and fun. Since fun is an entirely subjective term, it's difficult to please everyone.

It was not intended that the horse spell that paladins and shadowknights receive would have a speed buff, but due to an error on our part it does. It's a slight speed increase compared to other mounts, but it exists nonetheless. Our options at this point are:

Nerf the speed buff on the flavor horses so they provide no actual benefit.
Spend development time trying to think up marginally useful spells for all subclasses. Then come up with another round of these abilities when people complain that a different class has one that is somewhat more useful than their own.
Do nothing.

We have chosen the third option at this time. The effect of the horses is not such that it gives knights a game-imbalancing advantage, and we see no benefit in taking a minor perk away from a couple classes just to satisfy someone else.

So yes, knights get a flavor spell that is actually useful, and other subclasses don't. The flavor spells are a relatively minor element of gameplay, and we don't plan to modify them at this time.

===========================
Moorgard
EverQuest II Community Guy

This should address your point Tulmo.

As for my point, You still havent addressed it. All you said is you could care less.

Ill simplify. A substandared horse is diametricaly apposed to the image of the Knight as defined by history. I stand by that as a valid point.

As for your point, Myself, Moorgard and I think its safe to say based on the above clip, SOE do not agree with you.

Please look at the thread I just started "Two birds with one stone" for an alternative soloution. Id like to know what you think.

Message Edited by Coytee on 02-23-2005 11:34 AM

Wintero · 02-24-2005, 01:09 AM

BlackWeb wrote:

Winterorb wrote:

I'm saying you come off as a whiner. Forget the roleplay part...in real life are you going to whine to your boss that the stapler he gave you now has less sharp staples? No live with it, figure out another way. I can escape without using my mount. When a mob is kicking my hind end, im dead before i can even get the spell off much less attempt to run away on it. Its a FLUFF spell. I'm hoping maybe later on they will implement a steed we can earn etc. If not then, oh well i'll run just like every other toon has to. Or maybe you would have preferred we got a spell to make someone else dance? I have no patience with people who whine to try and get their way.

I have no patience with someone who questions my honor without reason. I am no longer listening to you. Go troll elsewhere.

I can troll where I want so neener :smileytongue: Its sucks it was nerfed, that I agree with but they aren't going to change it. So we have to live with it.

And nice to know that you "own" these boards Black Web...I have been had :smileysad:

Tul · 02-24-2005, 01:40 AM

Coytee, since the Developers did, indeed, make the change, I would suggest that they no longer agree with your interpretation. I agree, the change was made at the behest of snivellers, but the reason behind the change was still a valid one.

Re: Historical nature of knights - your point is completely meaningless to this discussion because what is at the core of this issue is NOT the historical knights of reality, but rather the concept of knights as they exist in this game. Historical knights were not Dwarves or Iksar or Trolls or Ratongas. They didn't execute Heroic Opportunities. They didn't fight gnolls and Nightbloods and giants. You're trying to bring history into an area where it doesn't belong. This is fantasy, and the overriding factors must be game lore and game balance.

You must also realize that even historical knights didn't simply have everything handed to them. They had to undergo rigorous training, physical and spiritual, and spent years in service to their lords. If it helps you, maybe you can roleplay that your Paladin is a knight-in-training, working towards a station in life where he can find a better horse and gain more stature.

Tul · 02-24-2005, 01:42 AM

From Blackweb:

Solo run speed is calculated differently from group run speed. Try it solo.

Proof, please. You are the first source from which I've heard this, and frankly your track record isn't all that shiny with regards to the facts.

Gilasil · 02-24-2005, 03:56 AM

I'm not using my horse anymore. A 10% speed boost isn't worth looking so ridiculous.

Once we found out the fast horse was a bug, all it took was a bunch of complaints by non-paladins to get us nerfed. I'm sure if they hadn't whined on the boards we'd still have our horse. The mere fact that SoE DELIBERATELY gave people things which were SUPPOSED to be useless indicates some pretty horrible game design in my opinion but we're stuck with it if we play this game I guess.

SoE may listen to customers sometimes, but it's when there's cold hard $$$$$ involved that they get moving. Take soloability. Throughout EQ1 soloability was .problamatical at higher level for many classes. There were MANY MANY complaints. For the most part they were ignored. During the development of EQ2 people said time and again on many boards that soloability at all levels was important. Instead, SoE followed the same prescription they did with EQ1 and made it progressively harder to solo (for the most part) after 20. While they did go so far as to mark mobs as solo or group, it looked to me like the vast majority of 20+ mobs were group, and the experience for solo mobs was so crappy as to hardly be worthwhile.

It appears that their original intent was to make it slightly soloable -- so you can do something until you get a group -- but it was intended that you eventually get that group. They as much as said that during development. Despite the fact that players said over and over again that soloability was important, they were fixated on forced grouping. They sure weren't listening then.

Now, they're changing their tune but it looks to me like the reason has less to do with listening to their players and more to do with noticing that their primary competition is highly soloable and that people are leaving EQ2 because of it. If they'd listened during development they wouldn't have to play catch up now.

Coyt · 02-24-2005, 03:56 AM

Tulmo wrote:

Coytee, since the Developers did, indeed, make the change, I would suggest that they no longer agree with your interpretation. I agree, the change was made at the behest of snivellers, but the reason behind the change was still a valid one.

Re: Historical nature of knights - your point is completely meaningless to this discussion because what is at the core of this issue is NOT the historical knights of reality, but rather the concept of knights as they exist in this game. Historical knights were not Dwarves or Iksar or Trolls or Ratongas. They didn't execute Heroic Opportunities. They didn't fight gnolls and Nightbloods and giants. You're trying to bring history into an area where it doesn't belong. This is fantasy, and the overriding factors must be game lore and game balance.

You must also realize that even historical knights didn't simply have everything handed to them. They had to undergo rigorous training, physical and spiritual, and spent years in service to their lords. If it helps you, maybe you can roleplay that your Paladin is a knight-in-training, working towards a station in life where he can find a better horse and gain more stature.

Did you not see my post ? It is not my interpretation it is a direct statement from the developers of the game. The overwelming evidence suggests that they changed it because so many people complained. I have concrete evedence to support this. Do you ? To say that they changed it for reasons contrary to the only position that they gave on the issue is wildly speculative on your part.

As for saying my point is meaningless is well, . mildly insulting. If that is the case then so is anyones idea of any class, wizard, ranger, assassin etc inclouding yours as they are all completely new and original ideas created by SOE and the design team. So there is no way to discuss this with you, I say we drop it.

Tul · 02-24-2005, 04:24 AM

Where is the reading comprehension? Why does it have to be this difficult?

From Coytee:

Did you not see my post ? It is not my interpretation it is a direct statement from the developers of the game. The overwelming evidence suggests that they changed it because so many people complained. I have concrete evedence to support this. Do you ? To say that they changed it for reasons contrary to the only position that they gave on the issue is wildly speculative on your part.

First, anytime someone says they have "concrete evidence" then I'm compelled to ask them to show it to us. I sincerely doubt you have anything other than forum posts to show as "evidence." But yes, I did see your post. Did you NOT see my post, where I said, basically, that they must have come around to disagree since they did, indeed change it? Did you completely miss where they said the horse was NEVER intended to have a 32% buff, even though they didn't intend change it originally? Did you not see that all those spells, for all levels, were "fluff" spells, and not intended to provide any real benefit, one way or another? Is the meaning of the term escaping you entirely? If you have scoured the forum for all this concrete proof, then how did you miss all this other stuff? Or are you simply choosing to not acknowledge it?

As for saying my point is meaningless is well, . mildly insulting. If that is the case then so is anyones idea of any class, wizard, ranger, assassin etc inclouding yours as they are all completely new and original ideas created by SOE and the design team. So there is no way to discuss this with you, I say we drop it.

Again, please reconsider what I actually posted. I said your personal concept of what a historical knight is supposed to be is meaningless because the Crusaders are driven by the concepts of the DEVELOPERS not by any historical concepts you may have. If it makes you feel better, my personal concept of a knight is meaningless as well. But seriously, I really feel as if you're either not grasping what's being said here or you're intentionally misrepresenting it.

Here's the bottom line - Crusaders are what SOE says they are. They are fantasy constructs, designed to co-exist in a game with other fantasy constructs and are balanced towards a certain benchmark, set by the Everquest2 developers. You can throw out all sorts of historical facts, but no historical knight ever was an ogre, nor did they call lightning from the sky to pull their opponents towards them. Therefore, historical knights are virtually meaningless to this conversation. The extent to which they've allowed for some overlapping of history and fantasy seems, at least to my eyes, to be cosmetic only - or was intended to be cosmetic only.

Surely you don't believe that players who become Paladins ought to be given gold pieces simply because they're Paladins, do you? And how do you feel about attacking unarmed foes? Do you think it's okay to battle against females? Do you ever shout to break the encounter and then ... run away? That's not very knight-like, is it? The point is, EQ2 Paladins and Shadowknights were not intended to be historical representations. They're fantasy characters, and they fit in a fantasy world. End of story.

Honestly, if I seem a little angry, it's because we're going in circles and I see so much of what I said being completely ignored. Is it that I'm unable to communicate clearly? If so, please let me know, and I'll try to be more clear.

Althor · 02-24-2005, 05:16 AM

I'm a little miffed about the horse nerf.. but what I'm more miffed about is that it was considered a fluff spell in the first place. It should never have been that. It should have been a level 45 + class-defining, fastest thing in the game, ability. Not some level 20 cheapo fun thing.

Debbi · 02-24-2005, 06:39 AM

Althor64 wrote:

I'm a little miffed about the horse nerf.. but what I'm more miffed about is that it was considered a fluff spell in the first place. It should never have been that. It should have been a level 45 + class-defining, fastest thing in the game, ability. Not some level 20 cheapo fun thing.

i agree. if that had happened, no one would be complaining.

Wintero · 02-24-2005, 01:10 PM

/cheer Althor

I agree, like the Holy Steed it should be an earned item through leveling, etc. Not a fluffly toy.

Wintero · 02-24-2005, 01:10 PM

bleh edit...the Holy Steed in EQ1

Coyt · 02-24-2005, 06:12 PM

Wow , I give up Tulmo.

Your assesment of SOE intentions and motivation borders on mystical as it is completely contrary to their statements.

My original point is totaly lost in overqualification and justification. I guess my assessment of the Holy Steed is completely my little fantasy and doesnt fit at all.

I have no idea what a Paladin is or should be.

I am humbled by you grasp of reality.

I will now retreat into my lilttle private reality where Knights ride quality horses and continue to deny reality and common sense in favor of my own twisted and wildly innacurate ideals.

I am shamed by my inability to make a simple freindly point in contradiction. It seems even with Moorgard's post to support me I fail miserably. I appologise for wasting your time and the obvios frustration my illiterate uninformed ramblings have caused you. Please dont feel inclide to waste anymore time trying teach me the error of my ways as I appear to be hopeless.

Please dont hate me because im stupid. :smileysad:

Tul · 02-24-2005, 09:50 PM

You can be as sarcastic as you want and pretend you're being victimized, Coytee, but that doesn't change anything. I used to get miffed at some of the non-Pally folks that would come in here and act all indignant that some folks couldn't get the points, but now I think I see their side of things. Reading comprehension is just out the window, and how.

This is the only thing that matters to this conversation: The EQ2 Devs admitted the horse speed was unintended.

By your very own post, you admit this. At first, they didn't feel it warranted changing, even though it wasn't supposed to be the benefit it was. Clearly they changed their minds, both as a result of the whining AND because - now please get this, it's important - THE HORSE WAS NEVER INTENDED TO PROVIDE A SPEED BUFF AT ALL AND WAS INTENDED TO BE A FLUFF SPELL ONLY. WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE IT IS IN THE LINE OF "FLUFF" SPELLS AND HAS BEEN CHARACTERIZED AS SUCH OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER BY THE EQ2 DEVELOPERS.

Whatever knights are in reality, and whatever you or I want to pretend they may have been, doesn't matter. You're talking about the EQ2 Developer's vision of the Paladin.

What's most troubling is that so many in here are playing the noble Paladin class but yet have absolutely NO concept of fairness or balance. All that seems to matter is that you get your horse and you get your big fancy run buff. Again, I say to you - if you said the horse run speed was only a convenience, then why on God's green earth is it such a big deal that it's now only less of a convenience? Answer: You know full well it was an unintended advantage, but because of all the nastiness and griping that you've had to endure at the hands of the whiners who called for the adjustment to begin with, you can't let go and can't swallow your pride and admit the truth.

Coyt · 02-24-2005, 11:39 PM

Tulmo wrote:

You can be as sarcastic as you want and pretend you're being victimized, Coytee, but that doesn't change anything. I used to get miffed at some of the non-Pally folks that would come in here and act all indignant that some folks couldn't get the points, but now I think I see their side of things. Reading comprehension is just out the window, and how.

This is the only thing that matters to this conversation: The EQ2 Devs admitted the horse speed was unintended.

You said it was imbalancing , I corrected you I have never once said it was intended, stop dodging and ignoring my point. You have now changed your position to it was unintended from imbalancing. Big difference. How am I suppose to have a rational discussion with someone who emplays these manipulative techniques? My sarcasm is totaly justified.

You wont admit that people that know way way more about game balance than you or I have never said it was imbalancing as a matter of fact they said it was NOT imbalancing. So argue with Moorgard not me.

By your very own post, you admit this. At first, they didn't feel it warranted changing, even though it wasn't supposed to be the benefit it was. Clearly they changed their minds, both as a result of the whining AND because - now please get this, it's important - THE HORSE WAS NEVER INTENDED TO PROVIDE A SPEED BUFF AT ALL AND WAS INTENDED TO BE A FLUFF SPELL ONLY. WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE IT IS IN THE LINE OF "FLUFF" SPELLS AND HAS BEEN CHARACTERIZED AS SUCH OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER BY THE EQ2 DEVELOPERS.

What kind of idiot do you take me for? of course they felt it was warrented, they changed it for christ's sake. but NOT because it was imbalancing.

Whatever knights are in reality, and whatever you or I want to pretend they may have been, doesn't matter. You're talking about the EQ2 Developer's vision of the Paladin.

All I said was Knights rode nice horses. How has this become a point of conflict. If you dont agree then type "no i dont belive Knights rode above average horses" or leave it allone.

What's most troubling is that so many in here are playing the noble Paladin class but yet have absolutely NO concept of fairness or balance. All that seems to matter is that you get your horse and you get your big fancy run buff. Again, I say to you - if you said the horse run speed was only a convenience, then why on God's green earth is it such a big deal that it's now only less of a convenience? Answer: You know full well it was an unintended advantage, but because of all the nastiness and griping that you've had to endure at the hands of the whiners who called for the adjustment to begin with, you can't let go and can't swallow your pride and admit the truth.

Make sure you PM Moorgard and explain to him what makes for imbalance he is obviosly clueless.

The big deal is people going around saying that it gave Pallys some sort of tactical in game advantage. FYI I could care less. See my thread on alternative soloutions entitled "two birds with one stone" if you dont belive me, it has some great ideas on how to make the horse fun without increasing the speed. What I do care about is people who post on these threads missinformation and perpetuate biased vews and refuse to aknowledge the truth even when the developers are the source.

You sir are wrong. Get over yourself.

Please make sure you address any more of this nonsense about imbalance to Moorgard as it is his assesment of that you are arguing with not mine.

Tul · 02-24-2005, 11:53 PM

In the utter hope that you can for once grasp a basic concept that any fourth grader could grasp, I shall try one last time.

The Paladin class is a fighter class, therefore it was BALANCED against other classes which had movement buffs as part of their skillset. The Paladin class was based on applying/taking melee damage with some offensive and defensive skills spells and was never intended to have a run speed buff, THEREFORE GIVING THE PALADIN A RUN SPEED BUFF AFFECTS THE BALANCE OF THE GAME AND - watch this, it's important - IS THEREFORE IMBALANCING.

It's your standard basic logical argument. Don't blame me if you're unwilling to accept it.

I've seen it posted elsewhere (in one of the third-party Paladin guides, I believe) that the Paladin horse (at 32% run speed buff) was great because you could fight all the way down til your power bar was empty and still get away easily even without using sprint if you had to flee. If you cannot accept that this is an advantage over other classes, then there's no hope for you.

A 32% run speed buff meant you spent less time travelling (and less power and concentration, since you didn't have to actually cast a real "spell") and therefore could spend more time either harvesting or fighting. If you cannot accept that this is an advantage over other classes, then there's no hope for you.

Finally, if you can't get it through your skull that the Paladin class in Everquest2 is only loosely, if at all, based off of "historical knights" and therefore is not bound by the notion of reality or history, then there's no hope for you.

If you're so concerned about individuals posting misinformation, falsities and outright inaccuracies, then I suggest you first take a look at your own posts before casting stones at others.

You've now wasted enough of my time. I hope you can find someone else who's going to try to hold your hand and help you understand this (not at all) confusing matter.

Message Edited by Tulmo on 02-24-2005 10:53 AM

02-23-2005, 05:22 AM	#31
BlackW Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 496	Tulmo wrote: Okay, okay, Blackweb. We get it, You're upset that your horse was adjusted. Mine was adjusted to, and so was every other Paladin's out there. As much as I hate that the real reason the horse was changed in this manner was because of class envy and whining, the rationale behind the change was logical and appropriate. Fact: The Fluff spells were never intended to give any one class an advantage over another. Fact: The Holy Steed with the 32% run speed adjustment provided a distinct advantage over other classes. Fact: Even after the adjustment, a 10% run speed adjustment is still far and away more useful than the other classes' fluff spells. You can argue this until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the facts. I know, I know - the Paladin is "defined" by the horse, right? Well I disagree. And it would appear that SOE does, as well. In either case, the horse is still there, so if having a horse defines the class for you, then you should be happy. Honestly, I'm sick to death of seeing these God-forsaken horse threads all over this forum. The Paladin class is alive and well and I, for one, really enjoy playing my Paladin. Let's please stop the whining. There is something you do not understand. Other classes get an automatic 10% speed buff when running on foot. Paladins do not, our Holy Nag is supposed to give it to us. The Holy Nag is not even a buff, it just makes us even with other classes. Last night while running on foot with a group in nek, I kept getting left behind and no we did not have any scouts in the group. Drop the Holy Nag and give us the same run buff that other classes have. If they buff the Holy Nag by 20% that will give us an actual speed buff over other classes normal run speed of 10%. If you dont believe me, try keeping up with other classes on foot. You cant. We are double nerfed, a slow horse and even slower on foot. The Holy Nag just makes us even with other classes, it is no buff at all. __________________ Blackweb, Human Paladin - Lucan Dlere Roleplay Server Order of Marr Crusader/Paladin Guide - In Progress

02-23-2005, 08:14 AM	#32
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	BlackWeb wrote: Tulmo wrote: Okay, okay, Blackweb. We get it, You're upset that your horse was adjusted. Mine was adjusted to, and so was every other Paladin's out there. As much as I hate that the real reason the horse was changed in this manner was because of class envy and whining, the rationale behind the change was logical and appropriate. Fact: The Fluff spells were never intended to give any one class an advantage over another. Fact: The Holy Steed with the 32% run speed adjustment provided a distinct advantage over other classes. Fact: Even after the adjustment, a 10% run speed adjustment is still far and away more useful than the other classes' fluff spells. You can argue this until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the facts. I know, I know - the Paladin is "defined" by the horse, right? Well I disagree. And it would appear that SOE does, as well. In either case, the horse is still there, so if having a horse defines the class for you, then you should be happy. Honestly, I'm sick to death of seeing these God-forsaken horse threads all over this forum. The Paladin class is alive and well and I, for one, really enjoy playing my Paladin. Let's please stop the whining. There is something you do not understand. Other classes get an automatic 10% speed buff when running on foot. Paladins do not, our Holy Nag is supposed to give it to us. The Holy Nag is not even a buff, it just makes us even with other classes. Last night while running on foot with a group in nek, I kept getting left behind and no we did not have any scouts in the group. Drop the Holy Nag and give us the same run buff that other classes have. If they buff the Holy Nag by 20% that will give us an actual speed buff over other classes normal run speed of 10%. If you dont believe me, try keeping up with other classes on foot. You cant. We are double nerfed, a slow horse and even slower on foot. The Holy Nag just makes us even with other classes, it is no buff at all. WRONG. The 10% speed is the same as preorder jboots, its most certainly NOT as fast as normal run speed. In fact pathfinding is only 16%, so your "fluff" spell is a little more than half as good as the scout's intended run speed enhancement. __________________

02-23-2005, 10:59 AM	#34
BlackW Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 496	Tulmo wrote: From Coytee (in orange): As much as I hate that the real reason the horse was changed in this manner was because of class envy and whining, the rationale behind the change was logical and appropriate. Opinion Of course it was my opinion, just like your words are YOUR opinion. Sniping at other posters like this helps nothing. This was not an advantage It was a convinience. I have never heared a convincing argument for an actual balance issue. In no way did this make me a supreme tank or effect the level of mob I could solo. I believe you're deluding yourself if you don't believe a run-speed buff wasn't an advantage. At 32%, as many have noted, you were that much safer in running from mobs, for example. And your travel time was greatly reduced. But please consider your own words - if it was merely a convenience, then it wouldn't seem like it should be a big deal now that it's simply LESS convenient. Honestly if you want to correctly potray the life of a "Knight" we should get the best food free, our rooms free our armor free the finest war horses free as Knights were in the service of the Monarchy and there were many many perks. I couldn't care less about correctly portraying the life of a "knight." That's a secondary issue that many have held up as a strawman in the face of a compelling logical argument. Most Pallys, it seems to me enjoyed the image of the Knight on His Holy Steed more than anything the Horse minus the speed buff is Lame no self respecting Knoght would ride a gimped horse, I think thats why most are upset. Knights are supposed to be priveleged, they were like the pro-athletes of their time could you see Michale Jordan driving a Saturn ? He wouldnt for much the same reason. Its still a valid issue, and Ii see both sides of it. I encourage everyone to search your soul as to why you think its so important that the Paladin not be priveledged. A fast desirable Horse fits the Knighly -Paladin image perfect. And for the Record Ill trade my Old horse for a Tower Shield and Hold the Line if anyone can work that. If the issue is just "image" then you should be fine. The horse is still there, with a 10% run-speed buff. It doesn't matter what Michael Jordan does. You simply have to realize that historical accuracy must bow to game design. I would suggest you search your own soul as to why you would say some players deserve privileges over other players, because that's at the core of the matter, not your (or my) opinion of what a historical knight should be. From Blackweb: There is something you do not understand. Other classes get an automatic 10% speed buff when running on foot. Paladins do not, our Holy Nag is supposed to give it to us. The Holy Nag is not even a buff, it just makes us even with other classes. Last night while running on foot with a group in nek, I kept getting left behind and no we did not have any scouts in the group. Drop the Holy Nag and give us the same run buff that other classes have. If they buff the Holy Nag by 20% that will give us an actual speed buff over other classes normal run speed of 10%. If you dont believe me, try keeping up with other classes on foot. You cant. We are double nerfed, a slow horse and even slower on foot. The Holy Nag just makes us even with other classes, it is no buff at all. I tested run speed with a Templar friend tonight. We both ran without our j-boots, and we both were neck and neck (no sprinting). With my Holy Steed active, I slowly but surely outpaced him. That would seem to lay your assertion to rest. If there is some other problem that is hampering your run speed, then that's a separate issue. But I believe you're wrong if you believe the other classes are faster. Trust me ... I understand. I understand that game balance and fairness must trump flawed understandings of the concept of the EQ2 knight. I also understand that the way this happened was nasty and contentious and yes, I agree that the adjustment came at the behest of many who stooped to whining, and that stings. Be that as it may, the adjustment still needed to be made. Take off the Jboots and try it again. __________________ Blackweb, Human Paladin - Lucan Dlere Roleplay Server Order of Marr Crusader/Paladin Guide - In Progress

02-23-2005, 11:36 AM	#35
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	I tested run speed with a Templar friend tonight. We both ran without our j-boots, and we both were neck and neck (no sprinting). With my Holy Steed active, I slowly but surely outpaced him. That would seem to lay your assertion to rest. If there is some other problem that is hampering your run speed, then that's a separate issue. But I believe you're wrong if you believe the other classes are faster. Trust me ... I understand. I understand that game balance and fairness must trump flawed understandings of the concept of the EQ2 knight. I also understand that the way this happened was nasty and contentious and yes, I agree that the adjustment came at the behest of many who stooped to whining, and that stings. Be that as it may, the adjustment still needed to be made. Take off the Jboots and try it again. Without = they were already taken off. __________________

02-23-2005, 12:14 PM	#37
BlackW Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 496	Winterorb wrote: I for one could really care less about nerfing the speed. Honestly, how does that "hurt" your game play? It takes you a little longer to run somewhere? Please stop giving honorable Paladin's a bad reputation with whining. An honorable preson would work with what they have. Where is PvP in EQ2 when you need it? I just died on zek because my Holy Nag was too slow to escape. Who are you to question my honor? You do not even know me and after such an insult, I do not care to know you. This is the forum, not the game. Save the roleplaying for the game. __________________ Blackweb, Human Paladin - Lucan Dlere Roleplay Server Order of Marr Crusader/Paladin Guide - In Progress

02-23-2005, 09:51 AM	#33
Tul Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 23	From Coytee (in orange): As much as I hate that the real reason the horse was changed in this manner was because of class envy and whining, the rationale behind the change was logical and appropriate. Opinion Of course it was my opinion, just like your words are YOUR opinion. Sniping at other posters like this helps nothing. This was not an advantage It was a convinience. I have never heared a convincing argument for an actual balance issue. In no way did this make me a supreme tank or effect the level of mob I could solo. I believe you're deluding yourself if you don't believe a run-speed buff wasn't an advantage. At 32%, as many have noted, you were that much safer in running from mobs, for example. And your travel time was greatly reduced. But please consider your own words - if it was merely a convenience, then it wouldn't seem like it should be a big deal now that it's simply LESS convenient. Honestly if you want to correctly potray the life of a "Knight" we should get the best food free, our rooms free our armor free the finest war horses free as Knights were in the service of the Monarchy and there were many many perks. I couldn't care less about correctly portraying the life of a "knight." That's a secondary issue that many have held up as a strawman in the face of a compelling logical argument. Most Pallys, it seems to me enjoyed the image of the Knight on His Holy Steed more than anything the Horse minus the speed buff is Lame no self respecting Knoght would ride a gimped horse, I think thats why most are upset. Knights are supposed to be priveleged, they were like the pro-athletes of their time could you see Michale Jordan driving a Saturn ? He wouldnt for much the same reason. Its still a valid issue, and Ii see both sides of it. I encourage everyone to search your soul as to why you think its so important that the Paladin not be priveledged. A fast desirable Horse fits the Knighly -Paladin image perfect. And for the Record Ill trade my Old horse for a Tower Shield and Hold the Line if anyone can work that. If the issue is just "image" then you should be fine. The horse is still there, with a 10% run-speed buff. It doesn't matter what Michael Jordan does. You simply have to realize that historical accuracy must bow to game design. I would suggest you search your own soul as to why you would say some players deserve privileges over other players, because that's at the core of the matter, not your (or my) opinion of what a historical knight should be. From Blackweb: There is something you do not understand. Other classes get an automatic 10% speed buff when running on foot. Paladins do not, our Holy Nag is supposed to give it to us. The Holy Nag is not even a buff, it just makes us even with other classes. Last night while running on foot with a group in nek, I kept getting left behind and no we did not have any scouts in the group. Drop the Holy Nag and give us the same run buff that other classes have. If they buff the Holy Nag by 20% that will give us an actual speed buff over other classes normal run speed of 10%. If you dont believe me, try keeping up with other classes on foot. You cant. We are double nerfed, a slow horse and even slower on foot. The Holy Nag just makes us even with other classes, it is no buff at all. I tested run speed with a Templar friend tonight. We both ran without our j-boots, and we both were neck and neck (no sprinting). With my Holy Steed active, I slowly but surely outpaced him. That would seem to lay your assertion to rest. If there is some other problem that is hampering your run speed, then that's a separate issue. But I believe you're wrong if you believe the other classes are faster. Trust me ... I understand. I understand that game balance and fairness must trump flawed understandings of the concept of the EQ2 knight. I also understand that the way this happened was nasty and contentious and yes, I agree that the adjustment came at the behest of many who stooped to whining, and that stings. Be that as it may, the adjustment still needed to be made.

02-23-2005, 11:53 AM	#36
Wintero Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6	I for one could really care less about nerfing the speed. Honestly, how does that "hurt" your game play? It takes you a little longer to run somewhere? Please stop giving honorable Paladin's a bad reputation with whining. An honorable preson would work with what they have.

02-23-2005, 12:37 PM	#38
Wintero Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6	I'm saying you come off as a whiner. Forget the roleplay part...in real life are you going to whine to your boss that the stapler he gave you now has less sharp staples? No live with it, figure out another way. I can escape without using my mount. When a mob is kicking my hind end, im dead before i can even get the spell off much less attempt to run away on it. Its a FLUFF spell. I'm hoping maybe later on they will implement a steed we can earn etc. If not then, oh well i'll run just like every other toon has to. Or maybe you would have preferred we got a spell to make someone else dance? I have no patience with people who whine to try and get their way.

02-23-2005, 01:23 PM	#39
Tue Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 11	Why do u think ur fluff spell should give u a advantage? The spell is just for looks. Im a illusionist i get illusions to look like u guys, Its just for fun and looks, it doesnt benifit me at all to be in a different form at all why do u think urs should benifit u beside the look factor? U want a horse that has faster speed then u have to save ur money and buy a real horse just like the rest of us. If ur fluff spell benifits u all of our fluff spells should benifit everyone but thats not the case cuz they are just FOR LOOKS. __________________ TueHi 54 Illusionist 41 alchemist

02-23-2005, 06:49 PM	#40
Coyt Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 81	Tulmo wrote: From Coytee (in orange): As much as I hate that the real reason the horse was changed in this manner was because of class envy and whining, the rationale behind the change was logical and appropriate. Opinion Of course it was my opinion, just like your words are YOUR opinion. Sniping at other posters like this helps nothing. Because I dissagree with your post and choose to anylise it catagoricaly to avoid cofusion, to adress each statement individualy in a logical manner I am now subject to being tagged with a negative label as a Sniper ? This was not an advantage It was a convinience. I have never heared a convincing argument for an actual balance issue. In no way did this make me a supreme tank or effect the level of mob I could solo. I believe you're deluding yourself if you don't believe a run-speed buff wasn't an advantage. At 32%, as many have noted, you were that much safer in running from mobs, for example. And your travel time was greatly reduced. But please consider your own words - if it was merely a convenience, then it wouldn't seem like it should be a big deal now that it's simply LESS convenient. Still waiting for the imbalance argument. Anyone can run +32%. So by your logic , anyone with a power pool buff and or a provisioner that can make the best food and sprint longer than you is imbalanced and should be nerfed ? Honestly if you want to correctly potray the life of a "Knight" we should get the best food free, our rooms free our armor free the finest war horses free as Knights were in the service of the Monarchy and there were many many perks. I couldn't care less about correctly portraying the life of a "knight." That's a secondary issue that many have held up as a strawman in the face of a compelling logical argument. Its a role playing game its about defining the archetype and its image. That is infact the whole point. So, lets take Sow from the Druids , and Pathfinding from the Scouts cause you could care less about portraying the Druid and Ranger class accurately too I hope, and Pathfinding doesnt even go with a Swashbuckler / Brigand so thats got to go. Oh and all the evac has to go too cause its not fair to me. Most Pallys, it seems to me enjoyed the image of the Knight on His Holy Steed more than anything the Horse minus the speed buff is Lame no self respecting Knoght would ride a gimped horse, I think thats why most are upset. Knights are supposed to be priveleged, they were like the pro-athletes of their time could you see Michale Jordan driving a Saturn ? He wouldnt for much the same reason. Its still a valid issue, and Ii see both sides of it. I encourage everyone to search your soul as to why you think its so important that the Paladin not be priveledged. A fast desirable Horse fits the Knighly -Paladin image perfect. And for the Record Ill trade my Old horse for a Tower Shield and Hold the Line if anyone can work that. If the issue is just "image" then you should be fine. The horse is still there, with a 10% run-speed buff. It doesn't matter what Michael Jordan does. You simply have to realize that historical accuracy must bow to game design. I would suggest you search your own soul as to why you would say some players deserve privileges over other players, because that's at the core of the matter, not your (or my) opinion of what a historical knight should be. Could you have missed the point more ? When every 3rd level 20 crafter twink is running around on a better horse than the Pally (see it alot on Mistmoore). "Gimpy the Wonder Mule" is a joke and does nothing to promote the image. If someone gave you a car that went 25mph top speed, would you drive it ? Hey its faster than walking. Its like putting a full leather clad tatooed hairy musclebound biker on a [Removed for Content] Moped how can people not see that ? From Blackweb: There is something you do not understand. Other classes get an automatic 10% speed buff when running on foot. Paladins do not, our Holy Nag is supposed to give it to us. The Holy Nag is not even a buff, it just makes us even with other classes. Last night while running on foot with a group in nek, I kept getting left behind and no we did not have any scouts in the group. Drop the Holy Nag and give us the same run buff that other classes have. If they buff the Holy Nag by 20% that will give us an actual speed buff over other classes normal run speed of 10%. If you dont believe me, try keeping up with other classes on foot. You cant. We are double nerfed, a slow horse and even slower on foot. The Holy Nag just makes us even with other classes, it is no buff at all. I tested run speed with a Templar friend tonight. We both ran without our j-boots, and we both were neck and neck (no sprinting). With my Holy Steed active, I slowly but surely outpaced him. That would seem to lay your assertion to rest. If there is some other problem that is hampering your run speed, then that's a separate issue. But I believe you're wrong if you believe the other classes are faster. Trust me ... I understand. I understand that game balance and fairness must trump flawed understandings of the concept of the EQ2 knight. I also understand that the way this happened was nasty and contentious and yes, I agree that the adjustment came at the behest of many who stooped to whining, and that stings. Be that as it may, the adjustment still needed to be made. __________________ http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=315553205

02-23-2005, 07:23 PM	#41
BlackW Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 496	Gage-Mikel wrote: I tested run speed with a Templar friend tonight. We both ran without our j-boots, and we both were neck and neck (no sprinting). With my Holy Steed active, I slowly but surely outpaced him. That would seem to lay your assertion to rest. If there is some other problem that is hampering your run speed, then that's a separate issue. But I believe you're wrong if you believe the other classes are faster. Trust me ... I understand. I understand that game balance and fairness must trump flawed understandings of the concept of the EQ2 knight. I also understand that the way this happened was nasty and contentious and yes, I agree that the adjustment came at the behest of many who stooped to whining, and that stings. Be that as it may, the adjustment still needed to be made. Take off the Jboots and try it again. Without = they were already taken off. Were you grouped? Try it solo. __________________ Blackweb, Human Paladin - Lucan Dlere Roleplay Server Order of Marr Crusader/Paladin Guide - In Progress

02-23-2005, 07:24 PM	#42
BlackW Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 496	Winterorb wrote: I'm saying you come off as a whiner. Forget the roleplay part...in real life are you going to whine to your boss that the stapler he gave you now has less sharp staples? No live with it, figure out another way. I can escape without using my mount. When a mob is kicking my hind end, im dead before i can even get the spell off much less attempt to run away on it. Its a FLUFF spell. I'm hoping maybe later on they will implement a steed we can earn etc. If not then, oh well i'll run just like every other toon has to. Or maybe you would have preferred we got a spell to make someone else dance? I have no patience with people who whine to try and get their way. I have no patience with someone who questions my honor without reason. I am no longer listening to you. Go troll elsewhere. __________________ Blackweb, Human Paladin - Lucan Dlere Roleplay Server Order of Marr Crusader/Paladin Guide - In Progress

02-23-2005, 09:15 PM	#43
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	BlackWeb wrote: Were you grouped? Try it solo. How is being grouped relevant to runspeed? Especially between a Pally and a Wizzie? It seems you are really reaching for straws __________________

02-23-2005, 11:38 PM	#44
Tul Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 23	From Coytee: Because I dissagree with your post and choose to anylise it catagoricaly to avoid cofusion, to adress each statement individualy in a logical manner I am now subject to being tagged with a negative label as a Sniper ? I'm going to bet that this will be ignored, but it's not that you disagree, it's how you disagreed. If I quoted you and put a little red "opinion" label after your words, I'd bet you'd get pretty bent out of shape. But for the sake of argument, I'll try to assume you weren't being snippy, and only chose to point out the obvious. Now we can be friends again. Still waiting for the imbalance argument. Anyone can run +32%. So by your logic , anyone with a power pool buff and or a provisioner that can make the best food and sprint longer than you is imbalanced and should be nerfed ? Okay, here it is - again - the archetypes and classes are balanced in terms of the relative strengths they bring to the table. Fighters have a great deal of physical strength and stamina, and are obviously primarily melee characters. As such, they don't get the degree of magical or movement abilities that other classes get. The same with Mages. They have very high magical abilities, but don't have the resistance to physical damage we have. It's balance. It's pure common sense. And please don't misrepresent my logic. The power pool buffs and food/drink buffs are factored into the current balance. It's all part of the plan. And everybody has access to those same options, whether by grouping with the characters than can provide the buffs or by purchasing the food/drink. If you say that the Paladin having a 32% run-speed buff isn't imbalance, that it's merely convenience, then why the gnashing of teeth that the convenience is now only a little less convenient? So, lets take Sow from the Druids , and Pathfinding from the Scouts cause you could care less about portraying the Druid and Ranger class accurately too I hope, and Pathfinding doesnt even go with a Swashbuckler / Brigand so thats got to go. Oh and all the evac has to go too cause its not fair to me. You're clearly resisting plain logic here. If you take this and that from every class because you don't think it's fair, you'll end up with everybody being the SAME. You chose to play a Paladin for some reason. If it was because you got a horse at level 20, then rejoice! You've still got the horse, and it's still convenient. If you chose Paladin because you assumed you'd have the powers of a Druid, or of a Swashbuckler, then you chose poorly. Perhaps it'd be worth your time to review the class descriptions on the Everquest2.com page again. Could you have missed the point more ? When every 3rd level 20 crafter twink is running around on a better horse than the Pally (see it alot on Mistmoore). "Gimpy the Wonder Mule" is a joke and does nothing to promote the image. If someone gave you a car that went 25mph top speed, would you drive it ? Hey its faster than walking. Its like putting a full leather clad tatooed hairy musclebound biker on a [Removed for Content] Moped how can people not see that ? Trust me, I'm not the one missing points here. The key point is, game balance is the primary factor regarding what class gets what. The game is designed so that there is some degree of class dependency. Otherwise, we'd all be able to wear heavy armor AND cast high-damage spells AND heal ourselves and others AND backstab AND cast run speed buffs on ourselves, etc. If that's what you are after, then I'm sorry to say Everquest2 just might not be the best game for you. The archetype balance has been spelled out by many more eloquent than I - and it's been there since before the game was launched. Many of you have said that you don't feel there was an imbalance issue with the Holy Steed. Ask yourselves how you might feel if Guardians were given a horse right now that was twice as fast as our horse. I bet you'd be angry and upset, wouldn't you? But as you said, it's only a convenience, it's not game balance, right? It wouldn't matter that the horse was faster than ours. Right? Blackweb, I don't know what to do with you. As I told you, my Templar friend and I both tested our run speeds against the other by, well, running WITHOUT J-BOOTS. I was fairly sure I was clear about that, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. With my horse, I gradually outpaced him. Now, if your mileage varies, perhaps there are other factors at work, but at this time I, myself, do not believe the horse is slower than standard run speed, as you suggested. I think it's really time to let this go. If nothing else, console yourself with the notion that you can now play "Gotcha!" with some of the other classes when it turns out that some imbalancing factor weighs in their favor. And you can clamor and clang until your heart's content.

02-24-2005, 12:00 AM	#45
BlackW Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 496	Gage-Mikel wrote: BlackWeb wrote: Were you grouped? Try it solo. How is being grouped relevant to runspeed? Especially between a Pally and a Wizzie? It seems you are really reaching for straws Solo run speed is calculated differently from group run speed. Try it solo. __________________ Blackweb, Human Paladin - Lucan Dlere Roleplay Server Order of Marr Crusader/Paladin Guide - In Progress

02-24-2005, 12:31 AM	#46
Coyt Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 81	We explained up front that these spells were meant for nothing more than flavor and fun. Since fun is an entirely subjective term, it's difficult to please everyone. It was not intended that the horse spell that paladins and shadowknights receive would have a speed buff, but due to an error on our part it does. It's a slight speed increase compared to other mounts, but it exists nonetheless. Our options at this point are: Nerf the speed buff on the flavor horses so they provide no actual benefit. Spend development time trying to think up marginally useful spells for all subclasses. Then come up with another round of these abilities when people complain that a different class has one that is somewhat more useful than their own. Do nothing. We have chosen the third option at this time. The effect of the horses is not such that it gives knights a game-imbalancing advantage, and we see no benefit in taking a minor perk away from a couple classes just to satisfy someone else. So yes, knights get a flavor spell that is actually useful, and other subclasses don't. The flavor spells are a relatively minor element of gameplay, and we don't plan to modify them at this time. =========================== Moorgard EverQuest II Community Guy This should address your point Tulmo. As for my point, You still havent addressed it. All you said is you could care less. Ill simplify. A substandared horse is diametricaly apposed to the image of the Knight as defined by history. I stand by that as a valid point. As for your point, Myself, Moorgard and I think its safe to say based on the above clip, SOE do not agree with you. Please look at the thread I just started "Two birds with one stone" for an alternative soloution. Id like to know what you think. Message Edited by Coytee on 02-23-2005 11:34 AM __________________ http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=315553205

02-24-2005, 01:09 AM	#47
Wintero Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6	BlackWeb wrote: Winterorb wrote: I'm saying you come off as a whiner. Forget the roleplay part...in real life are you going to whine to your boss that the stapler he gave you now has less sharp staples? No live with it, figure out another way. I can escape without using my mount. When a mob is kicking my hind end, im dead before i can even get the spell off much less attempt to run away on it. Its a FLUFF spell. I'm hoping maybe later on they will implement a steed we can earn etc. If not then, oh well i'll run just like every other toon has to. Or maybe you would have preferred we got a spell to make someone else dance? I have no patience with people who whine to try and get their way. I have no patience with someone who questions my honor without reason. I am no longer listening to you. Go troll elsewhere. I can troll where I want so neener :smileytongue: Its sucks it was nerfed, that I agree with but they aren't going to change it. So we have to live with it. And nice to know that you "own" these boards Black Web...I have been had :smileysad:

02-24-2005, 01:40 AM	#48
Tul Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 23	Coytee, since the Developers did, indeed, make the change, I would suggest that they no longer agree with your interpretation. I agree, the change was made at the behest of snivellers, but the reason behind the change was still a valid one. Re: Historical nature of knights - your point is completely meaningless to this discussion because what is at the core of this issue is NOT the historical knights of reality, but rather the concept of knights as they exist in this game. Historical knights were not Dwarves or Iksar or Trolls or Ratongas. They didn't execute Heroic Opportunities. They didn't fight gnolls and Nightbloods and giants. You're trying to bring history into an area where it doesn't belong. This is fantasy, and the overriding factors must be game lore and game balance. You must also realize that even historical knights didn't simply have everything handed to them. They had to undergo rigorous training, physical and spiritual, and spent years in service to their lords. If it helps you, maybe you can roleplay that your Paladin is a knight-in-training, working towards a station in life where he can find a better horse and gain more stature.

02-24-2005, 01:42 AM	#49
Tul Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 23	From Blackweb: Solo run speed is calculated differently from group run speed. Try it solo. Proof, please. You are the first source from which I've heard this, and frankly your track record isn't all that shiny with regards to the facts.

02-24-2005, 03:56 AM	#50
Gilasil Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 907	I'm not using my horse anymore. A 10% speed boost isn't worth looking so ridiculous. Once we found out the fast horse was a bug, all it took was a bunch of complaints by non-paladins to get us nerfed. I'm sure if they hadn't whined on the boards we'd still have our horse. The mere fact that SoE DELIBERATELY gave people things which were SUPPOSED to be useless indicates some pretty horrible game design in my opinion but we're stuck with it if we play this game I guess. SoE may listen to customers sometimes, but it's when there's cold hard $$$$$ involved that they get moving. Take soloability. Throughout EQ1 soloability was .problamatical at higher level for many classes. There were MANY MANY complaints. For the most part they were ignored. During the development of EQ2 people said time and again on many boards that soloability at all levels was important. Instead, SoE followed the same prescription they did with EQ1 and made it progressively harder to solo (for the most part) after 20. While they did go so far as to mark mobs as solo or group, it looked to me like the vast majority of 20+ mobs were group, and the experience for solo mobs was so crappy as to hardly be worthwhile. It appears that their original intent was to make it slightly soloable -- so you can do something until you get a group -- but it was intended that you eventually get that group. They as much as said that during development. Despite the fact that players said over and over again that soloability was important, they were fixated on forced grouping. They sure weren't listening then. Now, they're changing their tune but it looks to me like the reason has less to do with listening to their players and more to do with noticing that their primary competition is highly soloable and that people are leaving EQ2 because of it. If they'd listened during development they wouldn't have to play catch up now.

02-24-2005, 03:56 AM	#51
Coyt Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 81	Tulmo wrote: Coytee, since the Developers did, indeed, make the change, I would suggest that they no longer agree with your interpretation. I agree, the change was made at the behest of snivellers, but the reason behind the change was still a valid one. Re: Historical nature of knights - your point is completely meaningless to this discussion because what is at the core of this issue is NOT the historical knights of reality, but rather the concept of knights as they exist in this game. Historical knights were not Dwarves or Iksar or Trolls or Ratongas. They didn't execute Heroic Opportunities. They didn't fight gnolls and Nightbloods and giants. You're trying to bring history into an area where it doesn't belong. This is fantasy, and the overriding factors must be game lore and game balance. You must also realize that even historical knights didn't simply have everything handed to them. They had to undergo rigorous training, physical and spiritual, and spent years in service to their lords. If it helps you, maybe you can roleplay that your Paladin is a knight-in-training, working towards a station in life where he can find a better horse and gain more stature. Did you not see my post ? It is not my interpretation it is a direct statement from the developers of the game. The overwelming evidence suggests that they changed it because so many people complained. I have concrete evedence to support this. Do you ? To say that they changed it for reasons contrary to the only position that they gave on the issue is wildly speculative on your part. As for saying my point is meaningless is well, . mildly insulting. If that is the case then so is anyones idea of any class, wizard, ranger, assassin etc inclouding yours as they are all completely new and original ideas created by SOE and the design team. So there is no way to discuss this with you, I say we drop it. __________________ http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=315553205

02-24-2005, 04:24 AM	#52
Tul Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 23	Where is the reading comprehension? Why does it have to be this difficult? From Coytee: Did you not see my post ? It is not my interpretation it is a direct statement from the developers of the game. The overwelming evidence suggests that they changed it because so many people complained. I have concrete evedence to support this. Do you ? To say that they changed it for reasons contrary to the only position that they gave on the issue is wildly speculative on your part. First, anytime someone says they have "concrete evidence" then I'm compelled to ask them to show it to us. I sincerely doubt you have anything other than forum posts to show as "evidence." But yes, I did see your post. Did you NOT see my post, where I said, basically, that they must have come around to disagree since they did, indeed change it? Did you completely miss where they said the horse was NEVER intended to have a 32% buff, even though they didn't intend change it originally? Did you not see that all those spells, for all levels, were "fluff" spells, and not intended to provide any real benefit, one way or another? Is the meaning of the term escaping you entirely? If you have scoured the forum for all this concrete proof, then how did you miss all this other stuff? Or are you simply choosing to not acknowledge it? As for saying my point is meaningless is well, . mildly insulting. If that is the case then so is anyones idea of any class, wizard, ranger, assassin etc inclouding yours as they are all completely new and original ideas created by SOE and the design team. So there is no way to discuss this with you, I say we drop it. Again, please reconsider what I actually posted. I said your personal concept of what a historical knight is supposed to be is meaningless because the Crusaders are driven by the concepts of the DEVELOPERS not by any historical concepts you may have. If it makes you feel better, my personal concept of a knight is meaningless as well. But seriously, I really feel as if you're either not grasping what's being said here or you're intentionally misrepresenting it. Here's the bottom line - Crusaders are what SOE says they are. They are fantasy constructs, designed to co-exist in a game with other fantasy constructs and are balanced towards a certain benchmark, set by the Everquest2 developers. You can throw out all sorts of historical facts, but no historical knight ever was an ogre, nor did they call lightning from the sky to pull their opponents towards them. Therefore, historical knights are virtually meaningless to this conversation. The extent to which they've allowed for some overlapping of history and fantasy seems, at least to my eyes, to be cosmetic only - or was intended to be cosmetic only. Surely you don't believe that players who become Paladins ought to be given gold pieces simply because they're Paladins, do you? And how do you feel about attacking unarmed foes? Do you think it's okay to battle against females? Do you ever shout to break the encounter and then ... run away? That's not very knight-like, is it? The point is, EQ2 Paladins and Shadowknights were not intended to be historical representations. They're fantasy characters, and they fit in a fantasy world. End of story. Honestly, if I seem a little angry, it's because we're going in circles and I see so much of what I said being completely ignored. Is it that I'm unable to communicate clearly? If so, please let me know, and I'll try to be more clear.

02-24-2005, 05:16 AM	#53
Althor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2	I'm a little miffed about the horse nerf.. but what I'm more miffed about is that it was considered a fluff spell in the first place. It should never have been that. It should have been a level 45 + class-defining, fastest thing in the game, ability. Not some level 20 cheapo fun thing.

02-24-2005, 06:39 AM	#54
Debbi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 17	Althor64 wrote: I'm a little miffed about the horse nerf.. but what I'm more miffed about is that it was considered a fluff spell in the first place. It should never have been that. It should have been a level 45 + class-defining, fastest thing in the game, ability. Not some level 20 cheapo fun thing. i agree. if that had happened, no one would be complaining.

02-24-2005, 01:10 PM	#55
Wintero Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6	/cheer Althor I agree, like the Holy Steed it should be an earned item through leveling, etc. Not a fluffly toy.

02-24-2005, 06:12 PM	#57
Coyt Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 81	Wow , I give up Tulmo. Your assesment of SOE intentions and motivation borders on mystical as it is completely contrary to their statements. My original point is totaly lost in overqualification and justification. I guess my assessment of the Holy Steed is completely my little fantasy and doesnt fit at all. I have no idea what a Paladin is or should be. I am humbled by you grasp of reality. I will now retreat into my lilttle private reality where Knights ride quality horses and continue to deny reality and common sense in favor of my own twisted and wildly innacurate ideals. I am shamed by my inability to make a simple freindly point in contradiction. It seems even with Moorgard's post to support me I fail miserably. I appologise for wasting your time and the obvios frustration my illiterate uninformed ramblings have caused you. Please dont feel inclide to waste anymore time trying teach me the error of my ways as I appear to be hopeless. Please dont hate me because im stupid. :smileysad: __________________ http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=315553205

02-24-2005, 09:50 PM	#58
Tul Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 23	You can be as sarcastic as you want and pretend you're being victimized, Coytee, but that doesn't change anything. I used to get miffed at some of the non-Pally folks that would come in here and act all indignant that some folks couldn't get the points, but now I think I see their side of things. Reading comprehension is just out the window, and how. This is the only thing that matters to this conversation: The EQ2 Devs admitted the horse speed was unintended. By your very own post, you admit this. At first, they didn't feel it warranted changing, even though it wasn't supposed to be the benefit it was. Clearly they changed their minds, both as a result of the whining AND because - now please get this, it's important - THE HORSE WAS NEVER INTENDED TO PROVIDE A SPEED BUFF AT ALL AND WAS INTENDED TO BE A FLUFF SPELL ONLY. WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE IT IS IN THE LINE OF "FLUFF" SPELLS AND HAS BEEN CHARACTERIZED AS SUCH OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER BY THE EQ2 DEVELOPERS. Whatever knights are in reality, and whatever you or I want to pretend they may have been, doesn't matter. You're talking about the EQ2 Developer's vision of the Paladin. What's most troubling is that so many in here are playing the noble Paladin class but yet have absolutely NO concept of fairness or balance. All that seems to matter is that you get your horse and you get your big fancy run buff. Again, I say to you - if you said the horse run speed was only a convenience, then why on God's green earth is it such a big deal that it's now only less of a convenience? Answer: You know full well it was an unintended advantage, but because of all the nastiness and griping that you've had to endure at the hands of the whiners who called for the adjustment to begin with, you can't let go and can't swallow your pride and admit the truth.

02-24-2005, 11:39 PM	#59
Coyt Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 81	Tulmo wrote: You can be as sarcastic as you want and pretend you're being victimized, Coytee, but that doesn't change anything. I used to get miffed at some of the non-Pally folks that would come in here and act all indignant that some folks couldn't get the points, but now I think I see their side of things. Reading comprehension is just out the window, and how. This is the only thing that matters to this conversation: The EQ2 Devs admitted the horse speed was unintended. You said it was imbalancing , I corrected you I have never once said it was intended, stop dodging and ignoring my point. You have now changed your position to it was unintended from imbalancing. Big difference. How am I suppose to have a rational discussion with someone who emplays these manipulative techniques? My sarcasm is totaly justified. You wont admit that people that know way way more about game balance than you or I have never said it was imbalancing as a matter of fact they said it was NOT imbalancing. So argue with Moorgard not me. By your very own post, you admit this. At first, they didn't feel it warranted changing, even though it wasn't supposed to be the benefit it was. Clearly they changed their minds, both as a result of the whining AND because - now please get this, it's important - THE HORSE WAS NEVER INTENDED TO PROVIDE A SPEED BUFF AT ALL AND WAS INTENDED TO BE A FLUFF SPELL ONLY. WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE IT IS IN THE LINE OF "FLUFF" SPELLS AND HAS BEEN CHARACTERIZED AS SUCH OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER BY THE EQ2 DEVELOPERS. What kind of idiot do you take me for? of course they felt it was warrented, they changed it for christ's sake. but NOT because it was imbalancing. Whatever knights are in reality, and whatever you or I want to pretend they may have been, doesn't matter. You're talking about the EQ2 Developer's vision of the Paladin. All I said was Knights rode nice horses. How has this become a point of conflict. If you dont agree then type "no i dont belive Knights rode above average horses" or leave it allone. What's most troubling is that so many in here are playing the noble Paladin class but yet have absolutely NO concept of fairness or balance. All that seems to matter is that you get your horse and you get your big fancy run buff. Again, I say to you - if you said the horse run speed was only a convenience, then why on God's green earth is it such a big deal that it's now only less of a convenience? Answer: You know full well it was an unintended advantage, but because of all the nastiness and griping that you've had to endure at the hands of the whiners who called for the adjustment to begin with, you can't let go and can't swallow your pride and admit the truth. Make sure you PM Moorgard and explain to him what makes for imbalance he is obviosly clueless. The big deal is people going around saying that it gave Pallys some sort of tactical in game advantage. FYI I could care less. See my thread on alternative soloutions entitled "two birds with one stone" if you dont belive me, it has some great ideas on how to make the horse fun without increasing the speed. What I do care about is people who post on these threads missinformation and perpetuate biased vews and refuse to aknowledge the truth even when the developers are the source. You sir are wrong. Get over yourself. Please make sure you address any more of this nonsense about imbalance to Moorgard as it is his assesment of that you are arguing with not mine. __________________ http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=315553205

02-24-2005, 11:53 PM	#60
Tul Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 23	In the utter hope that you can for once grasp a basic concept that any fourth grader could grasp, I shall try one last time. The Paladin class is a fighter class, therefore it was BALANCED against other classes which had movement buffs as part of their skillset. The Paladin class was based on applying/taking melee damage with some offensive and defensive skills spells and was never intended to have a run speed buff, THEREFORE GIVING THE PALADIN A RUN SPEED BUFF AFFECTS THE BALANCE OF THE GAME AND - watch this, it's important - IS THEREFORE IMBALANCING. It's your standard basic logical argument. Don't blame me if you're unwilling to accept it. I've seen it posted elsewhere (in one of the third-party Paladin guides, I believe) that the Paladin horse (at 32% run speed buff) was great because you could fight all the way down til your power bar was empty and still get away easily even without using sprint if you had to flee. If you cannot accept that this is an advantage over other classes, then there's no hope for you. A 32% run speed buff meant you spent less time travelling (and less power and concentration, since you didn't have to actually cast a real "spell") and therefore could spend more time either harvesting or fighting. If you cannot accept that this is an advantage over other classes, then there's no hope for you. Finally, if you can't get it through your skull that the Paladin class in Everquest2 is only loosely, if at all, based off of "historical knights" and therefore is not bound by the notion of reality or history, then there's no hope for you. If you're so concerned about individuals posting misinformation, falsities and outright inaccuracies, then I suggest you first take a look at your own posts before casting stones at others. You've now wasted enough of my time. I hope you can find someone else who's going to try to hold your hand and help you understand this (not at all) confusing matter. Message Edited by Tulmo on 02-24-2005 10:53 AM