How powerful should ShadowKnight lifetaps be after the combat revamp? - Page 2

Exmortis_MT · 07-26-2005, 05:02 PM

Diernes wrote:
In EQL they eventually gave us fast casting lifetaps that had a heavy modifier to the resist check something like -200. This had the effect of only being resisted by Creatures that were completely immune to magic (very few). Its very frustrating to me that they are repeating the very same mistakes the original development team made with the EQlive shadowknight. I know this is an entirely different game and isnt supposed to be EQlive, but you would think they would at least have an idea about what works and what doesnt with this class.

Well you do realize that this is EQ2, not eq1? It makes no difference what any other game did or does. I have no issue with resists. EQ1 is the worst game ever to use as a marker of class balance, what every 2 months they screwed with another class only to bork it and then have to remake another? EQ1 is not a benchmark beyond lets do better. And eq2 is different right now neither better or worst. Lifetaps are just one consideration for the devs and they saw it as dps not heals originally.

I think SKs in eq2 are not meant to be self healers, they have very low healability. If this is true, get ready for that, and dont be all hung up on one thing. If lifetaps stay weak ill not worry, as long as our tanking and dps and over all utility remains balanced well within the game, and like all classes we have some unique strengths I will be happy.

Id personally like lifetaps to be one of them, I like the idea of using my enenmies health to heal my self, yes kinda vampirish, but its just kewl. But its not the end of the world. SOE has an opportunity here to really make each class feel unique. and i dont meant in how we tank, you stand and take damage, not that unique hehe. But give us some cripplign attacks, make us wanted as support, imagine that we can dish out decent dps, and cripple out foes in ways no one else can. Thats what i want to see. I want us added to grps and raids to improve the other melees abilties through crippling attacks.

I also think each class needs a unique set of HOs, not many, have some base fighter ones, then some crusader ones, but lets see some class specific ones, now thats worth having. Make a grp life tap HO for SKs a power tap HO for necros, soemthing that we each bring to the table. SOE has the chance of a lifetime, lets hope they use it.

Vak Mallek · 07-26-2005, 05:55 PM

/agree

MadTexan · 07-26-2005, 06:14 PM

Exmortis_MT wrote:
I also think each class needs a unique set of HOs, not many, have some base fighter ones, then some crusader ones, but lets see some class specific ones, now thats worth having. Make a grp life tap HO for SKs a power tap HO for necros, soemthing that we each bring to the table. SOE has the chance of a lifetime, lets hope they use it.

Now there is a nice idea I've not seen before.

Deadjest · 07-27-2005, 12:58 AM

Ha that is to funny, I brought that up on the Guardian fourm, which just shows, if its a great idea, its not confined to any one person and is just waiting to get out.

As for life Taps, I brought it up as a comparsion.

We should look to EQL for the same reason we keep a record of our History, not only to record what we have done but to hopeful learn from the mistakes. EQL had some good ideas which I would love to see them come here and hopefuly the mistakes it made wont come with them.

I would love to see us get some good life taps, and if not, at least decent life taps and more crippling effects and I dont mean stat wise.

I don't trust effects that effect a mobs stats, they dont run on the same rules we do and I have my doubts on how effective droping their stats would be.

But some meaningful slow effects, somthing that drops the offensive skill of the mob so it makes it harder to hit us. Maybe a Reverse Ward where it goes on the mob and filters down the damage he does to us till its all used up. Anything that has a meaningful effect that helps out the group in a way others cant so we have a role.

Add it to our dots if they get worried so it has a limited duration, but at least give our dots 2 to 4 more ticks. Its already low damage, might as well have a crippling effect on it.

As for DnD, we are trying somthing different and I am playing a Ghost with the Armor Feat so I can wear armor and use weapons, its been very interesting with lots of roleplaying going on. ( hopefuly we wont get into trouble for talking DnD for a moment )

As for FD it was tatical in many ways, somtimes the cleric would have to be invised to dart out for a quick HoT between mobs and then I would pop back up and resnare/agro again. But my group was pretty good at trying new things, we stuck together alot and did a lot of things we would not have dared tried with a pick up group.

Anyway, I hope they take the best of EQLs and bring it here and add their own twist to make somthing really awsome to play.

SonnyA · 07-28-2005, 01:36 PM

Lifetaps are very difficult to balance. Let's be honest. To be balanced, they should cost more power or do less damage regardless of how large (or small) the heal component is. And if we're grouped with a healer, then we don't want to waste our power by healing ourselves. We want to maximize our damage per power (DPP). So lifetaps are not the best choice in a group situation. I'm not saying that there won't be edge fights where they could save the day, but those situations will be rare.

So lifetaps are mainly for solo situations, or group situations where no healer is present. To be useful in this setup, the heals should be large enough to make us survive longer than we would without, and at the same time allow us to deal more damage within this timespan. To balance this, our DPP should be lowered by a factor equal to our prolonged lifespan. The longer we live because of lifetaps, the lower the DPP should be.

I think factor 1:1 is a bit overpowered. It would make too much of a difference. I suggest factor 1:2. We would maintain our DPS and keep ourselves alive longer, so in my opinion the DPP should be 1/3. 1 for the damage, 1 for the heal and 1 because we're not a healing class and this is a 2in1 spell.

I looked at Devour Vitae adept3 as shown in the "What can we do" thread. It's approx. 275 damage and 100 hp heal for 129 power. Sickening Anger adept3 is approx. 275 damage too and only 41 power, but no lifetap. This shows us that the current 1:3 lifetap is 1/3 DPP.

So in my opinion, they could keep the current damage and power of lifetaps, but increase it to 1:2 instead of 1:3.

MadTexan · 07-28-2005, 01:47 PM

I don't recall it being mentioned, but one balance issue for our lifetaps as compared to the paladin's heals is that while we are getting our 'heal' we are still inflicting damage at the same time. The paladin, however, isn't doing combat art damage while that healing spell is being used.

Margen · 07-28-2005, 01:50 PM

But his heal will never be resisted, while Lifetaps are quite often. Plus the power required for the damage/heal is kind of out of bounds in my opinion.

V/R

Blackoath

MadTexan · 07-28-2005, 03:04 PM

Margen wrote:

But his heal will never be resisted, while Lifetaps are quite often. Plus the power required for the damage/heal is kind of out of bounds in my opinion.

Aye, very true on the heal and I have noticed that our power consumption is immense. I do, however, still think that my point still has some validity and that it will need to be considered in the revamp.

Deadjest · 07-28-2005, 03:57 PM

The problem is that they are dropping our DPS, so the 1:1 is easier to balance on its own. With the drop in DPS that is going to happen in the revamp, its hard to balance spells that do like 300 dmg and heal for 100, then to make it a straight Tap that does 200 dmg/tap.

And a Tap HAS to be better then a Paladins heal, and I dont mean in the healing department but overall. Once you add in a mobs Spell Avoidance and Spell Mitigation, it has a major effect. If a paladin heals for 300, let our taps be 2/3 as effective, so we are doing 200 Dmg/Heal which keeps in line with our lesser ability to heal ourselves but also keeps in line we are the offensive part of the Tanks. But it all really depends on how well mobs can resists our taps, our ratio may have to be higher, I don't know its somthing for Sony to number crunch. But I think we should AVG OUT at 2/3 of a Paladins heal, on a good roll vs resists we may do better and on a bad roll we do worse then the 2/3 SK vs Pally Ratio.

Since our DPS will be limited in the revamp to keep Tanks in line with the DPS class's, Life Taps and hopefuly Mob Debuffing will have a stronger role for us.

I hope they gives us abilities to drop a mobs speed and offense lvl. I am more concerned in dropping his Offense so I take less damage then dropping his defense so the group can hit him a tad better. Dropping a mobs offense IMO is better in the long run.

So I am really hopeing they are thinking of us as more of a Tank that cripples the mob to make us effective compared to other Tanks who just Tank better. Simuliar result but from a different way.

insen · 07-28-2005, 07:07 PM

Deadjester wrote:

I hope they gives us abilities to drop a mobs speed and offense lvl. I am more concerned in dropping his Offense so I take less damage then dropping his defense so the group can hit him a tad better. Dropping a mobs offense IMO is better in the long run.

So I am really hopeing they are thinking of us as more of a Tank that cripples the mob to make us effective compared to other Tanks who just Tank better. Simuliar result but from a different way.

If you look at the spell line that gives us our compount for out DoT pet's you will notice that it lowers all melee attacking on mob, Now this does not mean that you will get for less damage but that the mob will have a harder time hitting you! I cast it on all mobs and it makes a world of a difference.

I for one is looking forward to the combat revamp, I know that I will not beable to out DPS the assissins and rangers anymore, but I do hope that we get more attacks that will reduce Stats, Mitiagation, and even Power Taps

Here is just an ideal Instead of giveing us a evac how about you give us a group fear spell, or even a 30 min recast time uber SK buff that lasts for 3 mins say one that you give you a 25% chance to inflict more damage on the mobs

07-26-2005, 05:02 PM	#31
Exmortis_MT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	Diernes wrote: In EQL they eventually gave us fast casting lifetaps that had a heavy modifier to the resist check something like -200. This had the effect of only being resisted by Creatures that were completely immune to magic (very few). Its very frustrating to me that they are repeating the very same mistakes the original development team made with the EQlive shadowknight. I know this is an entirely different game and isnt supposed to be EQlive, but you would think they would at least have an idea about what works and what doesnt with this class. Well you do realize that this is EQ2, not eq1? It makes no difference what any other game did or does. I have no issue with resists. EQ1 is the worst game ever to use as a marker of class balance, what every 2 months they screwed with another class only to bork it and then have to remake another? EQ1 is not a benchmark beyond lets do better. And eq2 is different right now neither better or worst. Lifetaps are just one consideration for the devs and they saw it as dps not heals originally. I think SKs in eq2 are not meant to be self healers, they have very low healability. If this is true, get ready for that, and dont be all hung up on one thing. If lifetaps stay weak ill not worry, as long as our tanking and dps and over all utility remains balanced well within the game, and like all classes we have some unique strengths I will be happy. Id personally like lifetaps to be one of them, I like the idea of using my enenmies health to heal my self, yes kinda vampirish, but its just kewl. But its not the end of the world. SOE has an opportunity here to really make each class feel unique. and i dont meant in how we tank, you stand and take damage, not that unique hehe. But give us some cripplign attacks, make us wanted as support, imagine that we can dish out decent dps, and cripple out foes in ways no one else can. Thats what i want to see. I want us added to grps and raids to improve the other melees abilties through crippling attacks. I also think each class needs a unique set of HOs, not many, have some base fighter ones, then some crusader ones, but lets see some class specific ones, now thats worth having. Make a grp life tap HO for SKs a power tap HO for necros, soemthing that we each bring to the table. SOE has the chance of a lifetime, lets hope they use it. __________________ Exxmortis

07-26-2005, 05:55 PM	#32
Vak Mallek Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 219	/agree __________________

07-26-2005, 06:14 PM	#33
MadTexan Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 160	Exmortis_MT wrote: I also think each class needs a unique set of HOs, not many, have some base fighter ones, then some crusader ones, but lets see some class specific ones, now thats worth having. Make a grp life tap HO for SKs a power tap HO for necros, soemthing that we each bring to the table. SOE has the chance of a lifetime, lets hope they use it. Now there is a nice idea I've not seen before.

07-28-2005, 01:50 PM	#37
Margen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 648	But his heal will never be resisted, while Lifetaps are quite often. Plus the power required for the damage/heal is kind of out of bounds in my opinion. V/R Blackoath __________________ Blackoath Uglyone 80 Shadow Knight of Chaos Phang 80 Swashbuckler of Chaos You EVER going to fix SKs Sony?

07-28-2005, 07:07 PM	#40
insen Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 49	Deadjester wrote: I hope they gives us abilities to drop a mobs speed and offense lvl. I am more concerned in dropping his Offense so I take less damage then dropping his defense so the group can hit him a tad better. Dropping a mobs offense IMO is better in the long run. So I am really hopeing they are thinking of us as more of a Tank that cripples the mob to make us effective compared to other Tanks who just Tank better. Simuliar result but from a different way. If you look at the spell line that gives us our compount for out DoT pet's you will notice that it lowers all melee attacking on mob, Now this does not mean that you will get for less damage but that the mob will have a harder time hitting you! I cast it on all mobs and it makes a world of a difference. I for one is looking forward to the combat revamp, I know that I will not beable to out DPS the assissins and rangers anymore, but I do hope that we get more attacks that will reduce Stats, Mitiagation, and even Power Taps Here is just an ideal Instead of giveing us a evac how about you give us a group fear spell, or even a 30 min recast time uber SK buff that lasts for 3 mins say one that you give you a 25% chance to inflict more damage on the mobs

07-27-2005, 12:58 AM	#34
Deadjest Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 178	Ha that is to funny, I brought that up on the Guardian fourm, which just shows, if its a great idea, its not confined to any one person and is just waiting to get out. As for life Taps, I brought it up as a comparsion. We should look to EQL for the same reason we keep a record of our History, not only to record what we have done but to hopeful learn from the mistakes. EQL had some good ideas which I would love to see them come here and hopefuly the mistakes it made wont come with them. I would love to see us get some good life taps, and if not, at least decent life taps and more crippling effects and I dont mean stat wise. I don't trust effects that effect a mobs stats, they dont run on the same rules we do and I have my doubts on how effective droping their stats would be. But some meaningful slow effects, somthing that drops the offensive skill of the mob so it makes it harder to hit us. Maybe a Reverse Ward where it goes on the mob and filters down the damage he does to us till its all used up. Anything that has a meaningful effect that helps out the group in a way others cant so we have a role. Add it to our dots if they get worried so it has a limited duration, but at least give our dots 2 to 4 more ticks. Its already low damage, might as well have a crippling effect on it. As for DnD, we are trying somthing different and I am playing a Ghost with the Armor Feat so I can wear armor and use weapons, its been very interesting with lots of roleplaying going on. ( hopefuly we wont get into trouble for talking DnD for a moment ) As for FD it was tatical in many ways, somtimes the cleric would have to be invised to dart out for a quick HoT between mobs and then I would pop back up and resnare/agro again. But my group was pretty good at trying new things, we stuck together alot and did a lot of things we would not have dared tried with a pick up group. Anyway, I hope they take the best of EQLs and bring it here and add their own twist to make somthing really awsome to play.

07-28-2005, 01:36 PM	#35
SonnyA Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 578	Lifetaps are very difficult to balance. Let's be honest. To be balanced, they should cost more power or do less damage regardless of how large (or small) the heal component is. And if we're grouped with a healer, then we don't want to waste our power by healing ourselves. We want to maximize our damage per power (DPP). So lifetaps are not the best choice in a group situation. I'm not saying that there won't be edge fights where they could save the day, but those situations will be rare. So lifetaps are mainly for solo situations, or group situations where no healer is present. To be useful in this setup, the heals should be large enough to make us survive longer than we would without, and at the same time allow us to deal more damage within this timespan. To balance this, our DPP should be lowered by a factor equal to our prolonged lifespan. The longer we live because of lifetaps, the lower the DPP should be. I think factor 1:1 is a bit overpowered. It would make too much of a difference. I suggest factor 1:2. We would maintain our DPS and keep ourselves alive longer, so in my opinion the DPP should be 1/3. 1 for the damage, 1 for the heal and 1 because we're not a healing class and this is a 2in1 spell. I looked at Devour Vitae adept3 as shown in the "What can we do" thread. It's approx. 275 damage and 100 hp heal for 129 power. Sickening Anger adept3 is approx. 275 damage too and only 41 power, but no lifetap. This shows us that the current 1:3 lifetap is 1/3 DPP. So in my opinion, they could keep the current damage and power of lifetaps, but increase it to 1:2 instead of 1:3.

07-28-2005, 01:47 PM	#36
MadTexan Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 160	I don't recall it being mentioned, but one balance issue for our lifetaps as compared to the paladin's heals is that while we are getting our 'heal' we are still inflicting damage at the same time. The paladin, however, isn't doing combat art damage while that healing spell is being used.

07-28-2005, 03:04 PM	#38
MadTexan Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 160	Margen wrote: But his heal will never be resisted, while Lifetaps are quite often. Plus the power required for the damage/heal is kind of out of bounds in my opinion. Aye, very true on the heal and I have noticed that our power consumption is immense. I do, however, still think that my point still has some validity and that it will need to be considered in the revamp.

07-28-2005, 03:57 PM	#39
Deadjest Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 178	The problem is that they are dropping our DPS, so the 1:1 is easier to balance on its own. With the drop in DPS that is going to happen in the revamp, its hard to balance spells that do like 300 dmg and heal for 100, then to make it a straight Tap that does 200 dmg/tap. And a Tap HAS to be better then a Paladins heal, and I dont mean in the healing department but overall. Once you add in a mobs Spell Avoidance and Spell Mitigation, it has a major effect. If a paladin heals for 300, let our taps be 2/3 as effective, so we are doing 200 Dmg/Heal which keeps in line with our lesser ability to heal ourselves but also keeps in line we are the offensive part of the Tanks. But it all really depends on how well mobs can resists our taps, our ratio may have to be higher, I don't know its somthing for Sony to number crunch. But I think we should AVG OUT at 2/3 of a Paladins heal, on a good roll vs resists we may do better and on a bad roll we do worse then the 2/3 SK vs Pally Ratio. Since our DPS will be limited in the revamp to keep Tanks in line with the DPS class's, Life Taps and hopefuly Mob Debuffing will have a stronger role for us. I hope they gives us abilities to drop a mobs speed and offense lvl. I am more concerned in dropping his Offense so I take less damage then dropping his defense so the group can hit him a tad better. Dropping a mobs offense IMO is better in the long run. So I am really hopeing they are thinking of us as more of a Tank that cripples the mob to make us effective compared to other Tanks who just Tank better. Simuliar result but from a different way.