Are Monks as avoidance oriented as implied by the dev's?

[Bi]

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bonesbro wrote:

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RadricTycho wrote:

People tend to glaze over when they see a thread that is full of both sides responding item by item to everything the other guy said.  Especially when it is clear that they care more about winning the argument than having something constructive come of it.  These volumes of pedantic bickering and argumentative babble are irritating to most of us, humorous maybe at first, but in the end irritating. 

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Yes.

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I dont even read sagemarrows posts anymore, it is now at the point where i read the posters name before reading the content due to people going offtopic and ranting on multiple issues and confusing the post with their personal soapbox :> funnily I ended up doing the same to mama, who thankfully has become much more constructive recently :>

[Moorgard]

To be clear once again: brawlers are intended to be tanks.

Displaying mitigation and avoidance has indeed revealed a class disparity, because the tanks that are supposed to be avoidance based are, in certain cases, not avoiding as well as a tank that is meant to be mitigation based.

It was never our intent that avoidance is a 100% thing, but that's basically how it is currently being used. This isn't just a problem with raid mobs, one that is present at all levels of play. There is, at every level range, a spot where you can select opponents that have little to no chance to hit you. Once again, that's not our intent.

A change that makes everyone not as good at avoiding damage isn't the solution in and of itself. When our mobs hit, they tend to hit for high amounts of damage, so suddenly even common fights would become a slaughter. Therefore any change to the way avoidance works will be accompanied by other changes that shift game balance such that mobs could hit more frequently but for much less damage.

This is still in the discussion phase, so additional changes will probably be made as well, such as to the effects of +Defense buffs or to the buffs themselves. But like I said we're still talking about this, so I will post details once a decision has been made on how we plan to tackle this issue.

[Jezekie]

It's nice to have some confirmation at least on what some of us around here have fealt for a long time. Hopefully we'll see a fix sooner rather then later

[SageMarrow]

praise the gods...

[MoonglumHMV]

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SageMarrow wrote:
praise the gods...

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he likes to be called Moorgard... LOL

[Drevva]

while it is great that the devs are looking into avoidance vs mitigation,  i do hope they keep in mind that many classes need avoidanceup to a point to be able to cast while in melee (healers etc..)  It would be no fun, if there fix was to remove avoidance on a grand scale to many classes without chaning say chance to get a spell interupted.  if every hit came through and then interupted any attempt at spell casting, well that would be no fun at all drevva

[Nerj]

I have a real problem understanding why the DEVS are having such a problem with this.

Guardian Tank takes 10 hits for 100 each.

Berzerker avoids 5 hits and takes 5 hits for 200 each.

Monk avoids 8 hits and takes 2 hits for 500 each.

It would seems that armor mitigates some damage whille avoidence just keeps you from getting hit as often. The net result is the same 1000 points of damage.

[ArivenGemini]

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NeVeRLiFt wrote:Now we are getting somewhere. I look forward to the dev's reply and answer to this. Ok so they cant fix deflection? Well then they can tweak our defense skill (this seems to be all the rage and helps guardians so much). Give us the option to use bucklers again or up our deflection skill by a few more points. As it stands we are just not avoiding like we should and Familymanfirst has the parses to show it as low as lvl 22 I believe it was. And my tests at lvl 43 shows its even worse!

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I doubt that bucklers are going to be much help..  my full tower shield on my 31 berserker gives me a whopping 5% increase in avoidance...  And I suspect bucklers do more than a tad less.. He runs 50.5% ish avoidance and I think it was 65% mitigation at the moment...  My level 26 monk on the other hand has a 72% avoidance and 35% mitigation... But I have noticed some of my defensive skills under serk do NOT change either avoidance or mitigation (specifically one that modifies parry)  so I suspect some stuff is still borked...

[SageMarrow]

Nerjin wrote:

I have a real problem understanding why the DEVS are having such a problem with this.

Guardian Tank takes 10 hits for 100 each.

Berzerker avoids 5 hits and takes 5 hits for 200 each.

Monk avoids 8 hits and takes 2 hits for 500 each.

It would seems that armor mitigates some damage whille avoidence just keeps you from getting hit as often. The net result is the same 1000 points of damage.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __

while that seems simple enough, that would mean a guardian would get no avoidance at all, no block (useless shields) , no parry, no riposte.. and moorguard already said that they arent going to just scrap avoidance totally for some classes. that would really be as simple as allowing for no miss resulted by blocks and just making the shield useful for added defense(mitigation).

 

but i dont know, im not gonna argue with moorguard one bit - i will say one thing though = i hope this doesnt hurt more than it fixes for the game over all. be it guardians, bruisers. paladins, whoever...

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-22-2005 07:30 PM

[Tatali]

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Moorgard wrote:

To be clear once again: brawlers are intended to be tanks.

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Is that why they were given a DPS skill (assassinate specificly) for their Bloodlines ability instead of a tanking one? Looks to me like the developers are pushing them to become a DPS class instead.

[SageMarrow]

are you trying to get killed????? what are you thinking saying truthful things like that... take it back right away!!!!!!!!

OOOOMMMGGGG!!

[RadricTyc]

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SageMarrow wrote:

Radric Tycho:

I am trying to understand how a full line of AoE and single-target taunts, several defensive stances, deflection, and attacks that can largely be used EVEN WHILE STUNNED, makes us not tanking oriented.

Please explain how these skills are not tanking oriented.  Yes I have often wondered what our real intended role was.  But usually the developers have made it very clear during those times.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

That was your question to me, which i answered very well in my previous post and went down a list of skills that i know we share in common and some that are exclusive to monks. and to further solidify that i also threw in some extra girth to my line of thought on the subject. i answered the question directed at ME. and the post above this one - answered the question asked by the OP.

so if you didnt grasp what i was trying to convey, i do apologize, but outside of the whacked off way that i type, it was very clearly presented.

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A taunt is a tank skill.  A defensive self-buff is a tank skill.  Deflection is a tank skill.  Attacks useable while stunned are tank skills.  We don't have to go into specifics of how precisely they work, or how well they work.  We can look at these skills and say they are skills a tank would use.  They are tank-oriented.  If they do not suffice for tanking in some way then maybe there is a balance issue.  But there is no way to look at an area-taunt and say: that's not a tank skill.  This is what I am getting at.

Since Moorgard has already asserted for the 100th time, that brawlers are tanks, I think that pretty much settles it anyway.  It's too bad he has to make this statement every couple of months for people to believe it.

[Kryog]

I have to admit I was shocked to see my values earlier today.   As a 39th level Guardian with a 40th Troubador in the group, with a wimpy tower shield and buffs, I was sitting at about 50% mitigation @ 39th with an avoidance factor of 70%.   I think that is a tad too high.   I think tops, I should cap out at 70%, but only if brawlers cap out around 90%.   Since they only mitigate maybe 30% of the damage, tops.   That 20% variance would be ideal to me.

[Gaige]

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Moorgard wrote:

To be clear once again: brawlers are intended to be tanks.

Displaying mitigation and avoidance has indeed revealed a class disparity, because the tanks that are supposed to be avoidance based are, in certain cases, not avoiding as well as a tank that is meant to be mitigation based.

It was never our intent that avoidance is a 100% thing, but that's basically how it is currently being used. This isn't just a problem with raid mobs, one that is present at all levels of play. There is, at every level range, a spot where you can select opponents that have little to no chance to hit you. Once again, that's not our intent.

A change that makes everyone not as good at avoiding damage isn't the solution in and of itself. When our mobs hit, they tend to hit for high amounts of damage, so suddenly even common fights would become a slaughter. Therefore any change to the way avoidance works will be accompanied by other changes that shift game balance such that mobs could hit more frequently but for much less damage.

This is still in the discussion phase, so additional changes will probably be made as well, such as to the effects of +Defense buffs or to the buffs themselves. But like I said we're still talking about this, so I will post details once a decision has been made on how we plan to tackle this issue.

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Thanks Moorgard, your input is appreciated, as always.

[Grabaan]

Thank your for the swift response Moorgard. It is nice to know you are aware of the issue, and even better to know it is currently under discussion. I think we all understand this isn't an overnight fix, and we need to be patient and constructive about where things go from here. Most of us never doubted we are tanks, and have been doing so since day one. Good to know that the playing fields will soon be more even.

[SageMarrow]

who said we werent tanks radric>??

 

i merely said that in the presence of a better tank .... aka guardian... our taunts magically fit us in second place when spamming everything we have.

 

which is why i said in an OFFTANK role, the skills are very befitting.  so that in case the tank cant get to the mob, we can handle it = which still equals tanking.

 

but sooner or later we will be on par with guardians and paladins the same... so dont worry about it anymore lol:smileyvery-happy:

[Morriz]

Food for thought, not for char grilling. <--- Level 43 Guardian, compared my avoidance/mitigation to a 41 Paladin in my guild. Both using similar equipment (Pristine Fulginate Armour, Equivalent shields - Slightly better than average Tower/Kite, Ebon one-handers etc.). I had 3% better overall mitigation than the Paladin unbuffed. We both had 61% (ish) Avoidance. Self buffed I have 7% better mitigation than he does. SELF BUFFED. Removing Defence buffs would mean that Guardians were merely the red-haired step children of Berserkers. Removing Defence Buffs would make Paladins like Guardians with Heals. There's a few schools of thought as far as the tank classes go and it would be pertinent and timely for the Dev's to tell us how they are trying to balance the classes. All our DPS/Damage/Avoidance etc. logging could be wasted if we're testing the wrong areas. Examples: Are the Dev's trying to balance the game so - Monks avoidance makes them on average an equal tank to a guardian (Extrapolated - Monks will spike damage some of the time, its unavoidable, no pun intended , but some of the time they can go a fight only being hit once). If so, Guardian DPS needs a buff. Essentially - no fighter class is intended to take any extra damage on normal exp mobs. Or, are the Dev's trying to balance the game so - A Monk tank does more DPS, thereby mobs (on average) die faster. But does however take extra damage. Essentially are they balancing it so, in order of overall Defence the tanks would be arranged - Guardian, Zerker, Paladin, SK, Monk, Bruiser. It is hard to say (I've been reading the site/boards from before beta, so no need to quote 800 Moorgard statements), as many of the Community Rep (Moorgard/Faarwolf) and even Dev posts are ambiguous and can be interpreted differently by different classes. An example being - Moorgard, a little higher up on the page said that Brawler sub-classes are meant to be tanks. Either of the aforementioned two schools of 'Fighter' tanking can lead to this. Until we know which, if any known to us, school of thought the Dev's are using, talk of Avoidance/Mitigation sliders is useless. Personal opinion - the sliders are FAR to simplified, they don't take into account DPS (It doesn't matter if that isn't a tanks primary job, DPS helps in holding agro and we still all contribute to it) or Utility (I played a Monk to 36, FD/Invis is a nice thing to have but I know it is far from being the end all. Similarly, Guardians get some very nice GROUP buffs in this department)

[Morriz]

Oh, on the subject of soloing blue^^'s. Tested it earlier, 43 Guardian (40% in) - My gear is listed on EQ2players, search me if you want to see, can solo them, JUST. Was down to 10% HP when it died, went OOM when the mob was at 60% health. It takes FOREVER to do it and the exp sucks. My monk can solo high green double ups realibly (as can my Guardian). Neither of them can be hit by these green^^'s. The green^^'s are much better exp overall too .

[psubull]

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Moorgard wrote:

To be clear once again: brawlers are intended to be tanks.

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Yep.  That's mainly how I play my bruiser.

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Moorgard wrote:

Displaying mitigation and avoidance has indeed revealed a class disparity, because the tanks that are supposed to be avoidance based are, in certain cases, not avoiding as well as a tank that is meant to be mitigation based.

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I love seeing the new numbers for clarity.  However, it's sad that I've seen self-buffed guardians with more avoidance than me.

 

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Moorgard wrote:

It was never our intent that avoidance is a 100% thing, but that's basically how it is currently being used. This isn't just a problem with raid mobs, one that is present at all levels of play. There is, at every level range, a spot where you can select opponents that have little to no chance to hit you. Once again, that's not our intent.

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Well of course, that's why avoidance should and is shown as a percent.  It's all about playing the odds with avoidance.  But honestly, when a guardian can buff to 100% avoidance, I want to slap each dev twice for each percent higher the guardians avoidance is than mine, a bruiser.  Where is the blocking % for brawlers?  We are supposed to have the same avoidance/mitigation boost as a round shield equipped.  Unfortunately, this is not the case.

 

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Moorgard wrote:

A change that makes everyone not as good at avoiding damage isn't the solution in and of itself. When our mobs hit, they tend to hit for high amounts of damage, so suddenly even common fights would become a slaughter. Therefore any change to the way avoidance works will be accompanied by other changes that shift game balance such that mobs could hit more frequently but for much less damage.

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Common fights a slaughter?  My regular guardian gets hit AT MOST 3xs during a fight from any MOB except epic encounters 52 and up for VERY low damage.  I get hit 8 to 20 times for close to half my HP. How hard is it to realize that this is a point in time where a nerf and a boost are needed.  I mean, monks have dozens of busted skills, we have a whole lot of busted skills, and the ONLY changes were that thundering fists work and that shrug off got nerfed hardcore?  Come on, do devs ever think of fixing old stuff before trying to add new stuff?  I honestly don't think they play the game.  I've got a proposition.  Let them fly out to where I live.  I'll buy them food, give em free room and board, and show them the game, explain what should and shouldn't work, and even help them recode it (non-sarcastic here).

 

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Moorgard wrote:

This is still in the discussion phase, so additional changes will probably be made as well, such as to the effects of +Defense buffs or to the buffs themselves. But like I said we're still talking about this, so I will post details once a decision has been made on how we plan to tackle this issue.

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The only actions that the developers can take are ones that upset other people while finally making us breathe happy about the word "Tank."  Lowering everyone's avoidance by a low, but reasonable amount, and raising a brawlers avoidance by about 12% would make it much better.  I mean, I'm sitting on 71.3% unbuffed at 50, and still, a guardian with no buffs or shield gets hit less and for less damage in a fight against a lvl 49 solo bear in everfrost.  This may seem like a drastic suggestion, but I'm pretty sure a good majority of people who pay attention to the monk and bruiser classes feel that it is a reasonable thing to do.  Take this into consideration.  Also, look at avoidance buffs.  Shrug off Master 1's avoidance boost says it boosts target's avoidance by 52%.  I've seen it boost someone's avoidance by .8% max.  Perhaps there is a misplaced zero in the equation, but when I buff someone, who's unbuffed avoidance is rocking out at 44%, I should either see it at 67ish percent (if that is the way it is intended to work), or 96% if it's made to actually increase the percentage by 52% (Which makes perfect sense now that avoidance buffs cannot stack, and that it cannot be recasted until its duration and recast timers wear off).  Our self buffs are doing little to nothing to add to our avoidance as well, also gaze at this.

[SageMarrow]

psu bullet  = i know you mean well, but you are gonna get us stuck in the scout archetype lol.

If you think for a second that the "healthy balance" that some ***may*** think we need across the board is going to take well with the other 1000000 plate tanks...

you are soorly mistaken, this will be just as big as the freaking crusader horse issue if by any chance word gets out that this all happened because of our tanking issue.

the changes that will potentially ensue after these changes go into effect will effect EVERY class, meaning - changing some classes buffs, changing the way avoidance works entirely. etc.

while it may be for the health of the game long term and all that good crap, you have been level 50 for how long? gage has been level 50 for how long? so if you do the math on that level... 3x as many players will be level 50 by the time this patch goes live. by the time they formulate a solution, figure out how to implement the solution, adjust the solution on every level, find the bugs in the solution, fix all the bugs in the solution, hope for efficiency.

meaning what? peoples strategies and ideals will be even moreso set in stone between the entire month that it will take to make something of this magnitude into play, and even more players will have a legitimate experience based voice at which point as well.

so keep in mind what you are asking for, aka suggesting on this. it has a medium/high possibility to cure the worlds ails, but an even larger possibility to start war of the worlds:eq2 class version.

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-22-2005 11:14 PM

[Morriz]

First things first - Yes Monks/Bruisers need an avoidance upgrade. But - Guardians don't blink twice, wiggle their nose and have 100% avoidance. This is a few Guardians, in raiding guilds, with raid buffs, giving them over +30 Defence. I'd like to see some Brawlers/Crusaders with the same buffs to gauge how they effect them.  The reason Guardians are saying this is because they get ONE personal buff that increases defence and crushing, piercing, slashing resistance. We also get 2 Group buffs that can buff defence. The personal buff we get does not fully stack with these group buffs. So as far as I can tell, any class can be buffed to the same level of Defence skill as a Guardian can. The only exception I can think of to this would be if you needed a specific 6 classes in one group, Guardian obviously being one of these classes with their defence buffs, to pull it of.

[Chanliang]

As it seems there is quite huge cap in efffectiveness of avoidance and mitigation.  At 33 my mystic actually has about same mitigation (roughly 50%) as level 38 paladins/guardians due our AC buffs and why I can't take hits as well as them is simple. I have roughly 45% avoidance (block being 4.6%) and 5 level higher gaurd/paladins have 20% more  avoidance and 8% more block. Simple fact is that at the moment best way to tank at the moment is avoidance backed up with high mitigation of course.  Problem is that either mitigation or avoidance itself currently are not enough for tanking (at least most of the people see it that way I believe). If soe is going to make changes for example reduce defence buffing they of course should implement those as ac buffs but it needs to be lot cause 70% mitigation still ain't  better if you have an option to avoid 70-80% coming hits for example. Also for fixing avoidance tanks avoidance (not sure what stats you have there) but brawlers base % should be higher than other tanks,  build-in shield should block prolly about 10% at level 40+ and deflection should also be affected by agility like base and parry is. These things are quite hard to balance cause they'll need lot of testing but we'll see how it goes in a month I believe...

[Nuvi]

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Nerjin wrote:

I have a real problem understanding why the DEVS are having such a problem with this.

Guardian Tank takes 10 hits for 100 each.

Berzerker avoids 5 hits and takes 5 hits for 200 each.

Monk avoids 8 hits and takes 2 hits for 500 each.

It would seems that armor mitigates some damage whille avoidence just keeps you from getting hit as often. The net result is the same 1000 points of damage.

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thats not really the case tho,guardians avoid almost as many hits as brawlers,berserkers take quite a few more hits then guardian cause of our defence buffs,the numbers u gave altho im sure they arent based of any testing doesnt really show a class for what it is,cause berserkers take more hits the guardian.

[Stra]

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Moorgard wrote:

To be clear once again: brawlers are intended to be tanks.

Displaying mitigation and avoidance has indeed revealed a class disparity, because the tanks that are supposed to be avoidance based are, in certain cases, not avoiding as well as a tank that is meant to be mitigation based.

It was never our intent that avoidance is a 100% thing, but that's basically how it is currently being used. This isn't just a problem with raid mobs, one that is present at all levels of play. There is, at every level range, a spot where you can select opponents that have little to no chance to hit you. Once again, that's not our intent.

A change that makes everyone not as good at avoiding damage isn't the solution in and of itself. When our mobs hit, they tend to hit for high amounts of damage, so suddenly even common fights would become a slaughter. Therefore any change to the way avoidance works will be accompanied by other changes that shift game balance such that mobs could hit more frequently but for much less damage.

This is still in the discussion phase, so additional changes will probably be made as well, such as to the effects of +Defense buffs or to the buffs themselves. But like I said we're still talking about this, so I will post details once a decision has been made on how we plan to tackle this issue.

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I smell a guardian nerf in the offing. This discussion makes me queasy. I can see spending half my time stunned now.

[RadricTyc]

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SageMarrow wrote:

between that fact and our skill base being not really tanking oriented at all times, does it ever make you stop and wonder what our REAL intended roll was?

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SageMarrow wrote:

who said we werent tanks radric>??

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Now I know why Gage feels the need to respond to everything you write.

[Nerj]

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SageMarrow wrote:

Nerjin wrote:

I have a real problem understanding why the DEVS are having such a problem with this.

Guardian Tank takes 10 hits for 100 each.

Berzerker avoids 5 hits and takes 5 hits for 200 each.

Monk avoids 8 hits and takes 2 hits for 500 each.

It would seems that armor mitigates some damage whille avoidence just keeps you from getting hit as often. The net result is the same 1000 points of damage.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __

while that seems simple enough, that would mean a guardian would get no avoidance at all, no block (useless shields) , no parry, no riposte.. and moorguard already said that they arent going to just scrap avoidance totally for some classes. that would really be as simple as allowing for no miss resulted by blocks and just making the shield useful for added defense(mitigation).

 

but i dont know, im not gonna argue with moorguard one bit - i will say one thing though = i hope this doesnt hurt more than it fixes for the game over all. be it guardians, bruisers. paladins, whoever...

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-22-2005 07:30 PM

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Hmm, how is that?

 How could someone in Heavy Armor avoid a blow? Armor reduces amount of damage done from hit, this won't change.Plus, a shield has an Armor rating, a weapon hitting a shield is not avoidance. If they want Mitigation add one more round with a miss for everyone then.

Guardian avoids 1 hit  takes 10 hits for 100 each.

Berzerker avoids 6 hits and takes 5 hits for 200 each.

Monk avoids 9 hits and takes 2 hits for 500 each.

Message Edited by Nerjin on 03-23-2005 11:24 PM

[NeVeRLi]

Thanks Moorgard. You know the first step to fixing any problem is to admit you have a problem, and I think you see now what alot of us have been saying. You got alot work ahead of you on this and I really think its gonna be hard to fix and balance. Moorgard come on Highkeep server and look me up, my names Kalidor. I want to show you these wizards/warlocks that are lvl 45-47 and are soloing group ^^ monsters that are lvl46-49^^. You nerfed bards hard IMHO and I hope you show them some love and fix what you did to them. In closing I would like to say I did even more testing in Permafrost tonight between a lvl 50 guardian and a lvl 50 monk. Same group only the main tanks switched out. I was lucky to see my friend on who is lvl 50 monk and as the lvl 50 guardian had to quit I talked the group into inviting the monk.... anyone who has been to PF knows the mobs there are lvl47-50^^ and seem to hit hard. With the guardian tanking we cleaned the place out and it was a cake walk, the guardian was always in the green with her hitpoints and was just awesome it was fun and relaxing and everyone loved it. (I'm being honest here people) With the monk tanking it was pure hell, he went into the yellow and orange asap and could not hold agro to save his life and he was trying. He would lose agro so easy and then work to get it back. The healers had to work to keep him alive and unlike with the guardian we did not get much past the first spiral up ramp before the group called for an evac. With the guardian we took the place by storm and kill all the named ^^ and never had to worry about evacing or agro control. People I love my monk but this is just not right! For the record the monks avoidance was 78% and his mitigation was 1800 the guardians avoidance was 65% and mitigation was 3000. The group was made up of a mystic, wizard, ranger, templar and me so even thou we had no bard we was balanced and ready(who needs bards now anyway since they been nerfed so bad). I hate to do this but I know people are interested in seeing the toons involved so here they are. Level 50 Monk http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=111263110 Level 50 Guardian http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=141435110

[Nerj]

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Nuvian wrote:

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Nerjin wrote:

I have a real problem understanding why the DEVS are having such a problem with this.

Guardian Tank takes 10 hits for 100 each.

Berzerker avoids 5 hits and takes 5 hits for 200 each.

Monk avoids 8 hits and takes 2 hits for 500 each.

It would seems that armor mitigates some damage whille avoidence just keeps you from getting hit as often. The net result is the same 1000 points of damage.

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thats not really the case tho,guardians avoid almost as many hits as brawlers,berserkers take quite a few more hits then guardian cause of our defence buffs,the numbers u gave altho im sure they arent based of any testing doesnt really show a class for what it is,cause berserkers take more hits the guardian.

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Correct, this is not based on testing just a simplification of how thing should work. Each class has there own specialty, Mages DPS - Fighters Tanking - etc., the first Archtype breaks down into how that specialty is implemented (High Mitigation - Low Avoidance, Medium Mitigation - Medium Avoidance, and Low Mitigation -High Avoidance). The final breakdown is Offence Vs. Defense skill sets ( Bruisers: More Offense Skill - Fewer Defense Skills, Monks: Fewer Offense Skill - More Defense Skills)

Simple process, but obviously Not an easy one.

Message Edited by Nerjin on 03-23-2005 11:27 PM

[SageMarrow]

radric... why does everyone take the time to single out everything i say....

what does the word REALLY... mean to you? to me it implies, it can be used for that purpose but in some cases can be used for others.

so instead of taking out the time to make me look like a fool as anyone who is a pro guardian monk tanking thingy seems to do... read the post and concentrate on the big issue.

a solution that wont break this game to pieces and send everyone that isnt 16 years old running screaming for the hills...

and i think a larger solution from the players involved is highly needed in comparison to a dev only solution... i trust their judgement, but more often than not, its apparent that the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing and it shows in the patches and nerfs and patches and nerfs before the bugs are even stomped out.

its easy for the level 50's to say i want to tank like a guardian, and thats fine on every level all day everyday, but you also have to understand that YOU are not the only one playing this game. Not that most that post here would care as long as they achieved thier personal goals. Still you have to accomodate a couple hundred or even a thousand other people on this issue. Its not a dps thing or a tank thing. its a how do we REALLY (theres that word again) want this balancing to be done.  

 Do you want a four cornered system where you either are or you aint and 6 classes can squabble over 2/24 or 1/6 slots? while everyone else gets free range at 22/24 and 5/6? Which seems okay for the average group... but come raid time. there will be alot more sad faces, quitters, and arguing to boot.  so also consider that by the time this change goes into effect, there will more than likely be 3x as many level 50 players waiting around for raids and expansion time.

Everyone isnt a die hard, and some players wont stay just because this is eq2 and thier playing experience relies heavily on thier reliability to remain with the game. And i for one am not in a great guild, and soloing isnt really all that great, i just left runny eye about an hour ago and only 4 people were in the entire zone, been that way all night. So with that being said, i dont want anymore players to leave than neccessary because MY personal play experience dependso on OTHER players to accomplish things. 

yet again, not that anyone REALLY cares in the monk forum, but guardians wouldnt have rolled guardians if they could tank in the same capacity, have fancy animations, and a bit more dps within a monk class. Tanking is an aquired taste, those that chose a guardian signed up to tank... nothing more nothing less. didnt expect anything fancy smancy or gimmicky about it. So keep in mind whatever change they make will matter MOUNDS, they are going to have to make either a gamebreaking decision or a archetype breaking one. id rather it be archetype before game breaking. and if anyone has a problem with that- sue me. 

 

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-23-2005 05:41 AM

[ArivenGemini]

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Kryogen wrote:

I have to admit I was shocked to see my values earlier today.   As a 39th level Guardian with a 40th Troubador in the group, with a wimpy tower shield and buffs, I was sitting at about 50% mitigation @ 39th with an avoidance factor of 70%.   I think that is a tad too high.   I think tops, I should cap out at 70%, but only if brawlers cap out around 90%.   Since they only mitigate maybe 30% of the damage, tops.   That 20% variance would be ideal to me.

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My level 26 monk is sitting about 35% mitigation and 72.5% avoidance...  guess I was right to pick agility as my focus