Passive Stance for fighters. - Page 2

The_Cheeseman · 06-18-2012, 02:10 AM

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Sorry Kimber, this stance does not improve your DPS at all.
Reread it.

Your stated reason for wanting this stance is to allow you to more effectively leverage your high-damage snap-aggro abilities when not tanking. The end result of which would be an increase in your DPS. If all you cared about was controlling your aggro, you already have all the tools you need to do that: turning off auto-attack and/or not using CAs. What you want is a way to minimize your threat generation while maximizing your DPS.

Guess what, that's what every DPS class wants, too!

Tanks are not a DPS class. Classically, this has been made evident by the fact that tanks were simply not capable of matching the DPS output of real DPS classes. In situations where the tank significantly outgears the DPS classes present and is capable of exceeding their DPS, lack of threat reduction becomes the issue. Tanks that aren't tanking can't match the DPS of real DPS classes, because they lack the tools that DPS classes use to throttle their hate generation. This is by design.

You are asking for an ability that completely invalidates an integral combat mechanic because you are trying to play your character in a way that was not intended. If you want to do a lot of DPS without taking aggro, play a DPS class. As long as you are playing a tank class, you will need to come to terms with the fact that you aren't intended to be able to maximize your DPS without getting aggro.

Talathion · 06-18-2012, 11:02 AM

The_Cheeseman wrote:

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:
Sorry Kimber, this stance does not improve your DPS at all.
Reread it.
Your stated reason for wanting this stance is to allow you to more effectively leverage your high-damage snap-aggro abilities when not tanking. The end result of which would be an increase in your DPS. If all you cared about was controlling your aggro, you already have all the tools you need to do that: turning off auto-attack and/or not using CAs. What you want is a way to minimize your threat generation while maximizing your DPS.
Guess what, that's what every DPS class wants, too!
Tanks are not a DPS class. Classically, this has been made evident by the fact that tanks were simply not capable of matching the DPS output of real DPS classes. In situations where the tank significantly outgears the DPS classes present and is capable of exceeding their DPS, lack of threat reduction becomes the issue. Tanks that aren't tanking can't match the DPS of real DPS classes, because they lack the tools that DPS classes use to throttle their hate generation. This is by design.
You are asking for an ability that completely invalidates an integral combat mechanic because you are trying to play your character in a way that was not intended. If you want to do a lot of DPS without taking aggro, play a DPS class. As long as you are playing a tank class, you will need to come to terms with the fact that you aren't intended to be able to maximize your DPS without getting aggro.

It would only be an increase in DPS in certain situations. (when i'm not tanking.) Otherwise, it does not make a single bit of difference.

The_Cheeseman · 06-18-2012, 05:31 PM

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

It would only be an increase in DPS in certain situations. (when i'm not tanking.) Otherwise, it does not make a single bit of difference.

So it would result in an increase to your DPS only in those situations in which you'd actually want to use it. I think my point is made.

Talathion · 06-18-2012, 06:11 PM

The_Cheeseman wrote:

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:
It would only be an increase in DPS in certain situations. (when i'm not tanking.) Otherwise, it does not make a single bit of difference.
So it would result in an increase to your DPS only in those situations in which you'd actually want to use it. I think my point is made.

So once a blue moon, seems kind of sitational, kind of like the -1000% AOE autoattack buff.

The_Cheeseman · 06-19-2012, 01:11 AM

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

So once a blue moon, seems kind of sitational, kind of like the -1000% AOE autoattack buff.

Singular Focus is a kludge to correct the unintended behavior of a universal game mechanic. It is not an archetype-specific ability whose sole purpose is to circumvent intentional class balance features.

Plus, if the suggested ability is really as useless as you claim, why do you feel its worth development resources to implement? (The previous question was rhetorical.)

Rahatmattata · 06-19-2012, 06:16 PM

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Does not increase DPS or anything, and can be used any time.

Except that you can do more dps without ripping.

I do not want another stance like this.

That being said, i really don't care if they implement this, they can even call it Talthion's Stance for all I care, because I won't be using it or putting it on my hotbar anyway, so it effects my game play none.

Rahatmattata · 06-19-2012, 06:43 PM

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Atm, my problem is losing aggro to the main tank, if I don't stop attacking he can never rip it off me.
But I have 40% Unbuffed Hate Mod/259% unbuffed critical bonus now, using 2 weapons.
I'm usually top 3-4 on the parse in this expansion.

The fact that you are in the top 5 on a dps parse means you most likely out-gear the people you are raiding with. If this is the case, it is dumb to suggest game changes based on this.

You need to either get a better MT, or learn to play with a little finess and control your aggro. As an off-tank on a progression pull, you are (probably) there to tank things, assist other tanks in keeping mobs off raid members, and damage control when bad things start to happen. You only need enough dps to build enough threat to hold aggro off the raid, and enough survivability to play your role in the content your guild is doing, and THEN the rest is dps. If you are there trying to maximize your dps, for one you picked a poor dps class, and for two, make sure your raid leader knows you're there for dps and that people aren't buffing you with hate or expecting you to tank anything. Also, drop your hate mod AAs/adornments/whatever.

Save the dpspeen for trash and pharm mobs. On a progression pull, be serious and do the job you are there to do. There is no reason you should be going balls-out dps if it's causing your raid problems. Stop being a detriment to your guild.

Boethius_Permafrost · 06-21-2012, 04:20 PM

While I am not supporting this idea, I think it would be not quite as bad if it merely prevented effects which add hate gain, without actually providing you with massive de-hate buffs that other dps have to itemize and buff for. If you want to be a dps class, then if you take agro with pure dps, that should be a problem.

Tekadeo · 06-22-2012, 09:37 PM

I can't decide if the proposed new fighter buff is like what Tala wanted or what I wanted. Seems a lot like the one i proposed but idk. Guess well see on test.

Talathion · 06-23-2012, 12:20 AM

Dunno, I think I sent a PM to a dev about it. :/

Mostly think its your idea though.

Tekadeo · 06-23-2012, 02:07 AM

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Dunno, I think I sent a PM to a dev about it. :/
Mostly think its your idea though.

Aye, we'll see if it is even possible to implement it correctly. I like your idea of killing off our snaps with reckless on. Would be nice to use Gibe without ripping everything in the dang zone.

Talathion · 06-23-2012, 11:30 AM

Tekadeo wrote:

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:
Dunno, I think I sent a PM to a dev about it. :/
Mostly think its your idea though.
Aye, we'll see if it is even possible to implement it correctly. I like your idea of killing off our snaps with reckless on. Would be nice to use Gibe without ripping everything in the dang zone.

Lol... I did mention it being a level 20 Ability though when I talked about it.

But it would be poorly implemented if abilitys like Grave Sac/Gibe didn't get there threat things removed.

Fairin · 06-24-2012, 04:00 AM

if your ripping off the MT, help them with knowledge on how to tank. you'd be suprised how many people dont realize how the game really works tal,

and no your not out parseing our raid MT (who is also a berserker that adores tanking in O-stance without a shield ect)

dont make me come over there and turn you into a floor mop =(>.-.&gt SMILEY =

Tekadeo · 06-24-2012, 08:21 AM

Fairin wrote:

if your ripping off the MT, help them with knowledge on how to tank. you'd be suprised how many people dont realize how the game really works tal,
and no your not out parseing our raid MT (who is also a berserker that adores tanking in O-stance without a shield ect)
dont make me come over there and turn you into a floor mop =(>.-.>=

Just curious what guild you are in and what your progression looks like with a Zerker MT in OStance. TBH we run a Pally, which is also less than ideal these days so I'm curious.

Yimway · 06-26-2012, 12:46 PM

No.

No class should be placed into a positoin that they don't have to be concerned with their agro building while doing dps.

I can maybe support something like Singular Focus that removed all positional hate increases, but lets be realistic, you can just know what your buttons and gear do and not use the ones with positionals...

Fairin · 06-28-2012, 10:23 AM

Tekadeo wrote:

Fairin wrote:
if your ripping off the MT, help them with knowledge on how to tank. you'd be suprised how many people dont realize how the game really works tal,
and no your not out parseing our raid MT (who is also a berserker that adores tanking in O-stance without a shield ect)
dont make me come over there and turn you into a floor mop =(>.-.>=
Just curious what guild you are in and what your progression looks like with a Zerker MT in OStance. TBH we run a Pally, which is also less than ideal these days so I'm curious.

Eternal Destiny, AB. working on drunder hm. and hes not unintelligent and goes shield / def when nessary

when it all comes down to it the plate tanks are pritty much the same with avoidance / mitigation as base stats. it just the different aiblities that set them slightly apart, but for the most part its just avoidance and mit

06-18-2012, 02:10 AM	#31
The_Cheeseman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,285	Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: Sorry Kimber, this stance does not improve your DPS at all. Reread it. Your stated reason for wanting this stance is to allow you to more effectively leverage your high-damage snap-aggro abilities when not tanking. The end result of which would be an increase in your DPS. If all you cared about was controlling your aggro, you already have all the tools you need to do that: turning off auto-attack and/or not using CAs. What you want is a way to minimize your threat generation while maximizing your DPS. Guess what, that's what every DPS class wants, too! Tanks are not a DPS class. Classically, this has been made evident by the fact that tanks were simply not capable of matching the DPS output of real DPS classes. In situations where the tank significantly outgears the DPS classes present and is capable of exceeding their DPS, lack of threat reduction becomes the issue. Tanks that aren't tanking can't match the DPS of real DPS classes, because they lack the tools that DPS classes use to throttle their hate generation. This is by design. You are asking for an ability that completely invalidates an integral combat mechanic because you are trying to play your character in a way that was not intended. If you want to do a lot of DPS without taking aggro, play a DPS class. As long as you are playing a tank class, you will need to come to terms with the fact that you aren't intended to be able to maximize your DPS without getting aggro. __________________

06-18-2012, 11:02 AM	#32
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	The_Cheeseman wrote: Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: Sorry Kimber, this stance does not improve your DPS at all. Reread it. Your stated reason for wanting this stance is to allow you to more effectively leverage your high-damage snap-aggro abilities when not tanking. The end result of which would be an increase in your DPS. If all you cared about was controlling your aggro, you already have all the tools you need to do that: turning off auto-attack and/or not using CAs. What you want is a way to minimize your threat generation while maximizing your DPS. Guess what, that's what every DPS class wants, too! Tanks are not a DPS class. Classically, this has been made evident by the fact that tanks were simply not capable of matching the DPS output of real DPS classes. In situations where the tank significantly outgears the DPS classes present and is capable of exceeding their DPS, lack of threat reduction becomes the issue. Tanks that aren't tanking can't match the DPS of real DPS classes, because they lack the tools that DPS classes use to throttle their hate generation. This is by design. You are asking for an ability that completely invalidates an integral combat mechanic because you are trying to play your character in a way that was not intended. If you want to do a lot of DPS without taking aggro, play a DPS class. As long as you are playing a tank class, you will need to come to terms with the fact that you aren't intended to be able to maximize your DPS without getting aggro. It would only be an increase in DPS in certain situations. (when i'm not tanking.) Otherwise, it does not make a single bit of difference.

06-18-2012, 05:31 PM	#33
The_Cheeseman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,285	Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: It would only be an increase in DPS in certain situations. (when i'm not tanking.) Otherwise, it does not make a single bit of difference. So it would result in an increase to your DPS only in those situations in which you'd actually want to use it. I think my point is made. __________________

06-18-2012, 06:11 PM	#34
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	The_Cheeseman wrote: Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: It would only be an increase in DPS in certain situations. (when i'm not tanking.) Otherwise, it does not make a single bit of difference. So it would result in an increase to your DPS only in those situations in which you'd actually want to use it. I think my point is made. So once a blue moon, seems kind of sitational, kind of like the -1000% AOE autoattack buff.

06-19-2012, 01:11 AM	#35
The_Cheeseman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,285	Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: So once a blue moon, seems kind of sitational, kind of like the -1000% AOE autoattack buff. Singular Focus is a kludge to correct the unintended behavior of a universal game mechanic. It is not an archetype-specific ability whose sole purpose is to circumvent intentional class balance features. Plus, if the suggested ability is really as useless as you claim, why do you feel its worth development resources to implement? (The previous question was rhetorical.) __________________

06-19-2012, 06:16 PM	#36
Rahatmattata Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,232	Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: Does not increase DPS or anything, and can be used any time. Except that you can do more dps without ripping. I do not want another stance like this. That being said, i really don't care if they implement this, they can even call it Talthion's Stance for all I care, because I won't be using it or putting it on my hotbar anyway, so it effects my game play none. __________________ A Cure For Cancer

06-19-2012, 06:43 PM	#37
Rahatmattata Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,232	Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: Atm, my problem is losing aggro to the main tank, if I don't stop attacking he can never rip it off me. But I have 40% Unbuffed Hate Mod/259% unbuffed critical bonus now, using 2 weapons. I'm usually top 3-4 on the parse in this expansion. The fact that you are in the top 5 on a dps parse means you most likely out-gear the people you are raiding with. If this is the case, it is dumb to suggest game changes based on this. You need to either get a better MT, or learn to play with a little finess and control your aggro. As an off-tank on a progression pull, you are (probably) there to tank things, assist other tanks in keeping mobs off raid members, and damage control when bad things start to happen. You only need enough dps to build enough threat to hold aggro off the raid, and enough survivability to play your role in the content your guild is doing, and THEN the rest is dps. If you are there trying to maximize your dps, for one you picked a poor dps class, and for two, make sure your raid leader knows you're there for dps and that people aren't buffing you with hate or expecting you to tank anything. Also, drop your hate mod AAs/adornments/whatever. Save the dpspeen for trash and pharm mobs. On a progression pull, be serious and do the job you are there to do. There is no reason you should be going balls-out dps if it's causing your raid problems. Stop being a detriment to your guild. __________________ A Cure For Cancer

06-21-2012, 04:20 PM	#38
Boethius_Permafrost Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 335	While I am not supporting this idea, I think it would be not quite as bad if it merely prevented effects which add hate gain, without actually providing you with massive de-hate buffs that other dps have to itemize and buff for. If you want to be a dps class, then if you take agro with pure dps, that should be a problem.

06-22-2012, 09:37 PM	#39
Tekadeo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 364	I can't decide if the proposed new fighter buff is like what Tala wanted or what I wanted. Seems a lot like the one i proposed but idk. Guess well see on test. __________________

06-23-2012, 12:20 AM	#40
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	Dunno, I think I sent a PM to a dev about it. :/ Mostly think its your idea though.

06-23-2012, 02:07 AM	#41
Tekadeo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 364	Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: Dunno, I think I sent a PM to a dev about it. :/ Mostly think its your idea though. Aye, we'll see if it is even possible to implement it correctly. I like your idea of killing off our snaps with reckless on. Would be nice to use Gibe without ripping everything in the dang zone. __________________

06-23-2012, 11:30 AM	#42
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	Tekadeo wrote: Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: Dunno, I think I sent a PM to a dev about it. :/ Mostly think its your idea though. Aye, we'll see if it is even possible to implement it correctly. I like your idea of killing off our snaps with reckless on. Would be nice to use Gibe without ripping everything in the dang zone. Lol... I did mention it being a level 20 Ability though when I talked about it. But it would be poorly implemented if abilitys like Grave Sac/Gibe didn't get there threat things removed.

06-24-2012, 04:00 AM	#43
Fairin Lord Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 54	if your ripping off the MT, help them with knowledge on how to tank. you'd be suprised how many people dont realize how the game really works tal, and no your not out parseing our raid MT (who is also a berserker that adores tanking in O-stance without a shield ect) dont make me come over there and turn you into a floor mop =(>.-.&gt=

06-24-2012, 08:21 AM	#44
Tekadeo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 364	Fairin wrote: if your ripping off the MT, help them with knowledge on how to tank. you'd be suprised how many people dont realize how the game really works tal, and no your not out parseing our raid MT (who is also a berserker that adores tanking in O-stance without a shield ect) dont make me come over there and turn you into a floor mop =(>.-.>= Just curious what guild you are in and what your progression looks like with a Zerker MT in OStance. TBH we run a Pally, which is also less than ideal these days so I'm curious. __________________

06-26-2012, 12:46 PM	#45
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	No. No class should be placed into a positoin that they don't have to be concerned with their agro building while doing dps. I can maybe support something like Singular Focus that removed all positional hate increases, but lets be realistic, you can just know what your buttons and gear do and not use the ones with positionals... __________________

06-28-2012, 10:23 AM	#46
Fairin Lord Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 54	Tekadeo wrote: Fairin wrote: if your ripping off the MT, help them with knowledge on how to tank. you'd be suprised how many people dont realize how the game really works tal, and no your not out parseing our raid MT (who is also a berserker that adores tanking in O-stance without a shield ect) dont make me come over there and turn you into a floor mop =(>.-.>= Just curious what guild you are in and what your progression looks like with a Zerker MT in OStance. TBH we run a Pally, which is also less than ideal these days so I'm curious. Eternal Destiny, AB. working on drunder hm. and hes not unintelligent and goes shield / def when nessary when it all comes down to it the plate tanks are pritty much the same with avoidance / mitigation as base stats. it just the different aiblities that set them slightly apart, but for the most part its just avoidance and mit