SK crit heals and Mythical weapon

[Drumstix]

Talathion, you really need a temporary ban or something for being a constant troll and contributing nothing to the original topic. Just because your class comes into a discussion for comparison, doesn't mean anyone is asking for nerfs. Stop being an idiot.

The ONLY passive effects on our myth, beside the static damage proc (as most have), is a 300% hate gain on lifetaps that heal us, and increase dot's tick damage. When sitting at 100% health for the majority of any fight, the effect is literally doing nothing for us. The point really isn't that we need more hate gain though, it's that our mythical buff is worthless.

Zerker epic has a 15% crit chance and 10% multi attack proc. 5% damage reduxBruiser has 10% redux and some avoidance boost.Guardian has 5% redux proc, immunity to reposte, immunity proc.Monks get mit increase, strikethrough, block chance, and 15% multi attack proc.Paladins 10% redux, 10% reactive, base heals/spells increase proc.

I'm sure each tank could put in 2 cents about their mythical, but this topic is about the SK one and that is very useless in comparison.

All tanks could really use some better hate tools, but that is another topic altogether.

[Bruener]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Bruener wrote:

% abilities scale the best.  So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health.  Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are.  I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale.

Surely you see the problem with how much you would potentially ward if you hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds?

I can hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds with my lifetaps?

I was thinking of reaver heals in with the lifetaps, since they effectively are designed to do the same thing, siphon heals to you.

Reaver like lifetaps is useless if you are already full on health.

If Reaver heals are explicitely not included, and you are only talking about your one aoe lifetap included, then I'm cool with it.  Just need to be clear reaver hits would not be accumulated into the blood ward.

I feel like in this conversation from SK's reaver ticks are frequently overlooked.  Is there a reason for this other than in raid settings it doesn't amount to alot?  Is there something broken about the ability and it works differently than stated?

Reaver is not technically a Lifetap if that makes sense.  Devour Vitae is a Lifetap because it does damage and heals at the same time off of the same spell.  Reaver however is a heal that is cast from damaging a mob with a seperate spell.

As far as the amount of reaver healing on raids it is due from the huge fact that healers have no problem keeping a Fighter 100% health the majority of time.  When they do spike down the incoming heals are so fast and big that Reaver hardly has any time to actually heal as well.  Now without a Shaman Reaver starts to show up more on heals, just like a Warden starts to climb on the heal parse when there isn't a Shaman healing with them.  By design though Wards are so powerful because it prevents deaths more than any other healers.

Reaver while tanking might get lucky and heal me for 300-400 heals per second.  A 300-400 heals per second that is unneeded because all it is doing is filling in the very tiny gaps between what healers are going to make up anyway most likely.  Reaver is a decent ability from the EoF tree, and is probably fine where it is.  The issue is in every other Lifetap being a joke and this thread specifically addressing how becauase Lifetaps are practically nothing it makes the Epic buff nothing as well.

[gatrm]

The real point of this thread is that the SK mythical buff is useless.  It literally is not noticeable if I forget to recast it after respecing.  I have gone weeks before realizing it was not up because it does not have any noticeable affect.  This cannot be said by most classes.

Increasing hate by the amount healed by life taps was a good idea in theory, however it doesn't work.  Even before the nerf to heal crits it didn't work, if there was a shaman around. 

My suggestion would be to change it altogether- Maybe it would add a taunt to all combat arts.  Or add a taunt equal in size to the life tap on all life taps.  Either of these would increase hate as was apparently the goal when developing the SK mythical.   A taunt proc with damage reduction would also be nice, or for a portion of all damage that the SK takes to be returned as a ward.

Something needs to be changed to make it useful

I would also ask that the clicky target lock be changed to actually work as a target lock.

[urgthock]

gatrm wrote:

add a taunt equal in size to the life tap on all life taps.

I like this idea the most as it "feels" the closest to what I think the devs were trying to do. Since lifetap heals don't do much (or anything when a shaman is around), this would still accomplish the same thing by way of using the same abilities. It would just apply to the actual lifetap damage instead of the lifetap healing.

[Yimway]

gatrm wrote:

The real point of this thread is that the SK mythical buff is useless.  It literally is not noticeable if I forget to recast it after respecing.  I have gone weeks before realizing it was not up because it does not have any noticeable affect.  This cannot be said by most classes.

Increasing hate by the amount healed by life taps was a good idea in theory, however it doesn't work.  Even before the nerf to heal crits it didn't work, if there was a shaman around. 

Sorry if we derailed, but that wasn't the intention.  It does need some looking at, as does the usefulness of lifetaping in general.

My proposal was to make the clicky add the Blood Ward effect that any 'over-tap' amounts would accumulate into a ward that is capped at 20-30% of your health.

The depletion of the ward would then continue to add hate as would the direct heals from the lifetaps.

This was my suggestion on tweaking the buff keeping the orriginal idea of what you tap adding to your hate, but providing a viable means for that mechanic to work with either a shaman around, or on raid encounters.  So long as reaver doesn't contribute to the blood ward accumulation, I think it would be a reasonable change and also match the orriginal intention of the ability.

This was my idea for the buff some time ago, I just never posted it cause well, when I had it SK's were already insane

[urgthock]

I have read this whole thread and I have yet to see anyone mention the other ability of the SK Myth. The 1 hit stoneskin (if it's more than 60% of your health). I just think that percentage is too high. All other classes that get a 1 hit stoneskin ability usually have a health threshold closer to 30 or 40%. 60% just seems really high. Or am I just not understanding that it's better than I thought it was.

[Yimway]

IMO, the higher threshold is a bonus.  It makes it less likely some misc hit will take the stoneskin when your using it for something important.

Others might see that differently.

[LygerT]

having it eat 30k hit is much better than it eating a 15k hit. the only question is, did you really need that 30% to start with, generally you tank while green and get topped off quickly so the larger hits are more important to avoid.

[Bruener]

Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:

having it eat 30k hit is much better than it eating a 15k hit. the only question is, did you really need that 30% to start with, generally you tank while green and get topped off quickly so the larger hits are more important to avoid.

The problem is the ability only absorbs physical damage for that very short time on that really long recast of 5 min.  It should be good for ALL damage over 60% of health.

[Rageincarnate]

I'd love for the target lock/taunt and stoneskin to be seperated into two different abilities tbh.  The clicky is on such a long recast.. It's kinda pointless. 

[urgthock]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

IMO, the higher threshold is a bonus.  It makes it less likely some misc hit will take the stoneskin when your using it for something important.

Others might see that differently.

Well, my question was more along the lines of, if you don't raid (which I don't anymore); how often are you actually getting hit for more than 60% of your health? It just seems that the high threshold simply makes the ability worthless in most (non-raid) circumstances.

[LygerT]

Bruener wrote:

Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:

having it eat 30k hit is much better than it eating a 15k hit. the only question is, did you really need that 30% to start with, generally you tank while green and get topped off quickly so the larger hits are more important to avoid.

The problem is the ability only absorbs physical damage for that very short time on that really long recast of 5 min.  It should be good for ALL damage over 60% of health.

i might understand if it was the only ability, perhaps the heal portion could be adjusted but keep in mind there are 2 abilities, not just 1 that can be conveniently forgotten about.

urgthock wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

IMO, the higher threshold is a bonus.  It makes it less likely some misc hit will take the stoneskin when your using it for something important.

Others might see that differently.

Well, my question was more along the lines of, if you don't raid (which I don't anymore); how often are you actually getting hit for more than 60% of your health? It just seems that the high threshold simply makes the ability worthless in most (non-raid) circumstances.

you raided to get the mythical, it is a raiding piece of equipment not a heroic or solo one.

if i purchased a tool to work on my mercedes and used that tool for years then sold the mercedes and bought a toyota, the tool doesn't work on the toyota, if i take the tool back to the truck i bought it from should they offer me an exchange? i don't feel they're obligated to, but you may suggest that they have a trade in program for something more useful to retired raiders and possibly as replacements for alts as the mythical is no longer "mythical".

[Yimway]

Bruener wrote:

Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:

having it eat 30k hit is much better than it eating a 15k hit. the only question is, did you really need that 30% to start with, generally you tank while green and get topped off quickly so the larger hits are more important to avoid.

The problem is the ability only absorbs physical damage for that very short time on that really long recast of 5 min.  It should be good for ALL damage over 60% of health.

With a 5 min recast, I wholeheartedly agree on ALL damage.

[Bruener]

Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:

having it eat 30k hit is much better than it eating a 15k hit. the only question is, did you really need that 30% to start with, generally you tank while green and get topped off quickly so the larger hits are more important to avoid.

The problem is the ability only absorbs physical damage for that very short time on that really long recast of 5 min.  It should be good for ALL damage over 60% of health.

i might understand if it was the only ability, perhaps the heal portion could be adjusted but keep in mind there are 2 abilities, not just 1 that can be conveniently forgotten about.

Well, the problem is both abilities are about worthless.

We already went over the hate gain proc from Lifetap heals and how that is worthless.  Now when you talk about the clicky it is on a very long reuse timer.  Part of the clicky is supposed to be a force target on the mob...which we know doesn't work on raid mobs.  So instead it is a 4 hate positions jump, pretty minimal and less than my Rescue that is on a lot less of a timer.  The other part of the clicky is the 8 second stoneskin to physical damage over 60%, something that due to a 5 min recast and not working on all types of damage becomes a drop in the bucket on anything.  Especially since it could be used for AEs if it worked on all damage since they are actually the most likely hits that will actually hit more than 60%.

Niether effect is doing what the original intent of the abilities were.  The clicky was intended to be a literal force target, the 8 sec immunity to physical damage was designed at a time where it was all about Physical damage.  The proc buff was designed to be a very large amount of AE producing hate.

[LygerT]

well, keep in mind the class changes at this time aren't for anything outside the scope of AA changes.

[urgthock]

Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:

urgthock wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

IMO, the higher threshold is a bonus.  It makes it less likely some misc hit will take the stoneskin when your using it for something important.

Others might see that differently.

Well, my question was more along the lines of, if you don't raid (which I don't anymore); how often are you actually getting hit for more than 60% of your health? It just seems that the high threshold simply makes the ability worthless in most (non-raid) circumstances.

you raided to get the mythical, it is a raiding piece of equipment not a heroic or solo one.

No I didn't and no it isn't. I am not asking for a replacement, I just had a question about it. No reason for you to get so upset.

[Bruener]

Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:

well, keep in mind the class changes at this time aren't for anything outside the scope of AA changes.

Yep.  It is nice to see some feedback on some much needed changes though.  I know Zerks are in a similar boat for the most part, and if you get a chance to play with some Brawlers its amazing how far things feel like we have fallen way behind the curve.

[LygerT]

urgthock wrote:

Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:

urgthock wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

IMO, the higher threshold is a bonus.  It makes it less likely some misc hit will take the stoneskin when your using it for something important.

Others might see that differently.

Well, my question was more along the lines of, if you don't raid (which I don't anymore); how often are you actually getting hit for more than 60% of your health? It just seems that the high threshold simply makes the ability worthless in most (non-raid) circumstances.

you raided to get the mythical, it is a raiding piece of equipment not a heroic or solo one.

No I didn't and no it isn't. I am not asking for a replacement, I just had a question about it. No reason for you to get so upset.

was there a fundamental change to mythical weapons in the last year i was completely unaware of? you must kill 3 epic raid mobs to attain the mythical weapon for the discussed buffs/attributes on it. or did they make it so you can get the mythical buff without actually having the mythical weapon?

even though they are green con mobs now, they are still epic raid encounters, green means weak and the mythical is now 10 levels old.

and i'm not upset in the least, just trying to give you perspective.

Bruener wrote:

Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:

well, keep in mind the class changes at this time aren't for anything outside the scope of AA changes.

Yep.  It is nice to see some feedback on some much needed changes though.  I know Zerks are in a similar boat for the most part, and if you get a chance to play with some Brawlers its amazing how far things feel like we have fallen way behind the curve.

levelling a bruiser right now i can already see how the changes have drastically improved on them. even on my zerk alt(new server) i had a hard time taking on yellow ^^^ heroics with full masters and OP mastercrafted armor even in the mid level ranges 30-50+(when i was at level), bruiser takes the same mobs with adept I's and treasured armor that is 15 levels below me on. level 62 in 3 days play time, has AEs similar to my zerk and can easily move around. while that all doesn't totally apply to epic encounters, i can actually see that they are a decent all around tank because they take hits as well if not better than my plate wearing toons.

[Yimway]

Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:

was there a fundamental change to mythical weapons in the last year i was completely unaware of? you must kill 3 epic raid mobs to attain the mythical weapon for the discussed buffs/attributes on it. or did they make it so you can get the mythical buff without actually having the mythical weapon?

No raiding required, you can convert your fabled version from the heroic quest to the envenerated one that gives the mythical buff.

Pretty sure that happened when you were away from game.

[LygerT]

i see, ignore my comment then. but it still is a level 80 ability that was attained based on raiding however.

[Bruener]

Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:

well, keep in mind the class changes at this time aren't for anything outside the scope of AA changes.

Yep.  It is nice to see some feedback on some much needed changes though.  I know Zerks are in a similar boat for the most part, and if you get a chance to play with some Brawlers its amazing how far things feel like we have fallen way behind the curve.

levelling a bruiser right now i can already see how the changes have drastically improved on them. even on my zerk alt(new server) i had a hard time taking on yellow ^^^ heroics with full masters and OP mastercrafted armor even in the mid level ranges 30-50+(when i was at level), bruiser takes the same mobs with adept I's and treasured armor that is 15 levels below me on. level 62 in 3 days play time, has AEs similar to my zerk and can easily move around. while that all doesn't totally apply to epic encounters, i can actually see that they are a decent all around tank because they take hits as well if not better than my plate wearing toons.

Yeah the real big differences start happening in DoV raiding.  Getting hit way less often, taken less damage when they do get hit, and having a big arsenal of survivability tools on fast reuse is about the sum of it.

[Gaarysal]

Touch of death is what I'd really like to see changed. When I die it is very rarely to a large melee hit, it is usually to a multi attack of 20-30k hits which won't get absorbed because it is less than 60% but combined are enough to 1 shot. However there are a TON of magical AEs that hit for 60-100k+ if you are MT which the mythical would be great for if it worked on all damage. I'd also like to see it be a separate ability from the "force" target since it is useful for offtanking when I need to eat aes for various reasons I wouln't want to rip the named just to survive the ae lol.

The "force" target needs to be a 24 position hate increase + a massive threat amount. This way it will not be resisted by every single raid mob that is immune to force target and it is garunteed to do what the description says.

Recasts on both whether separate or same need to be adjusted as well.

Splurt should be changed to general DoT compression OR allow all spells to be cast on the run which is a major detriment compared to other fighters. Right now it just really doesn't do much for damage.

As for seething hatred, I like the idea of lifetap overflow into a ward and it adding the 300% threat as the ward depletes. Or possibly rework the ability in a whole new way that is as SKish as lifetaps generating threat. Possibly remove the effect alltogether and add an effect to make deathmarch raidwide with some additional effects such as ma, sma, flurry, pot, and/or cb?

[Talathion]

Give shadowknights a 25-33% Damage Reduction to all Non-Direct Spells.