Developers are about to create a HUGE imbalance between the summoner classes

[Ironcleaver]

Exelance@Butcherblock wrote:

Buff LB, Reduse the damage.  take away the HP drain. let it be effected by CRIT/CB/POT/SDA.

Id agree with this as long as it is done to Manaburn as well (power instead of health though). I haven't seen a necro die from using Lifeburn in ages in raids. Manaburning, no Wizard will do in raids. It's nice burst in damage, but no damage at all after, just not worth it. There the old debate that an enchanter will just give you your power back. Nice in theory, but once they notice/care, a wizards dps will be bottom of the barrel too long.

Anyway just my two cents - those fighting for Lifeburn to be boosted, I agree with, just don't forget manaburn since it is in far worst shape.

[note: manaburn is effected by some potancy, but it really dosent make it any better due to its down side.]

[Germs666]

If you don't think EB is overpowered you either

A: Have no idea at all and don't play a summoner or a dps class at that.

B: Play a conji and you're keeping quiet.

At this point in the game conjis:

1 - Do more single target dps

2- do more multi target dps

3- have better group utility

I really can't make it any more simple. (Even for the Templar giving everyone minus points? I wish I could post this in braille since he can't read)

Cisgo is probably the only  unbiased voice on this issue considering he plays both classes.

[Davngr1]

Ironcleaver wrote:

Exelance@Butcherblock wrote:

Buff LB, Reduse the damage.  take away the HP drain. let it be effected by CRIT/CB/POT/SDA.

Id agree with this as long as it is done to Manaburn as well (power instead of health though). I haven't seen a necro die from using Lifeburn in ages in raids. Manaburning, no Wizard will do in raids. It's nice burst in damage, but no damage at all after, just not worth it. There the old debate that an enchanter will just give you your power back. Nice in theory, but once they notice/care, a wizards dps will be bottom of the barrel too long.

Anyway just my two cents - those fighting for Lifeburn to be boosted, I agree with, just don't forget manaburn since it is in far worst shape.

[note: manaburn is effected by some potancy, but it really dosent make it any better due to its down side.]

 that's why wizards that manaburn ask a mystic to tap the mob.   also wizards aren't exactly hurting on the dps front. unlike necros who got the short end of the stick for a few expansions now starting with the useless vampirisim in rok and the final slap in the face recieving a weak end line with a large health penalty while the ohter dps classes recived huge boost with zero penalty.

[Germs666]

I see no point either in all of the health penalties and damage restrictions/caps on our lifetaps and lifeburn when no other class gets penalized for doing T2 dps....

[Solarax]

Germs666 wrote:

Cisgo is probably the only  unbiased voice on this issue considering he plays both classes.

umn what about me since i play both and an illy?

[Davngr1]

-BUMP-

will my necro recieve any attention this expac?

[Haapy]

Germs666 wrote:

I see no point either in all of the health penalties and damage restrictions/caps on our lifetaps and lifeburn when no other class gets penalized for doing T2 dps....

I think some rangers might have something to say about that

Seriously though, I play both, and conj does rule in dps in raids, however, i feel that in regular, non-optimized groups they are about equal. I think my necro actually bring a little bit more utility than a conj in terms of tiny heal (saved some fights) and a rez. Soloing is not even a contest, TH is far more OP for that than EB is for raiding if you are going to compare two classes. Necro's need some love in LB, ooze pet, snare, and the UH, but I would not mind at all if their potential raw dps remains at 90% of the conj.

I am sure some replies will be "I do not care about soloing or grouping", but then, it is stupid to compare classes without looking at how they play at ALL aspects of the game. I, for one, would never want a nerf to TH or removal of our fd just so I can do a little bit more dps.

[Davngr1]

Haapy wrote:

Germs666 wrote:

I see no point either in all of the health penalties and damage restrictions/caps on our lifetaps and lifeburn when no other class gets penalized for doing T2 dps....

I think some rangers might have something to say about that

Seriously though, I play both, and conj does rule in dps in raids, however, i feel that in regular, non-optimized groups they are about equal. I think my necro actually bring a little bit more utility than a conj in terms of tiny heal (saved some fights) and a rez. Soloing is not even a contest, TH is far more OP for that than EB is for raiding if you are going to compare two classes. Necro's need some love in LB, ooze pet, snare, and the UH, but I would not mind at all if their potential raw dps remains at 90% of the conj.

I am sure some replies will be "I do not care about soloing or grouping", but then, it is stupid to compare classes without looking at how they play at ALL aspects of the game. I, for one, would never want a nerf to TH or removal of our fd just so I can do a little bit more dps.

this is exactly the dumb thinking that destroyed this class.

  people invite healers to heal and rez.   they DONT invite summoners to heal and rez..   they invite summoners to DPS and if one summoner does more dps then that summoner is superior at the MAIN function of the class and thus there is NO BALANCE.

  btw ..   stone skin > necro heal        utillity wise.

[snowli]

Actually I think groupwide timewarp might benefit the necro more than the conjy, afterall a much higher percentage of the necro's dps comes from themselves so they can cast smart during the timewarp period. Conversely conjy have a much higher dps portion via their pet, and yes conjy have activated pet temp abilities, but if they are activating them the conjy can't cast anything for themselves, like damage, and any pet is going to cast dumb during timewarp.

It's the same whinge as I've heard sorcs who don't understand the conjuror class make: conjy get double use out of timewarp. But, while activating pet stuff during timewarp the conjy can't cast one of their personal dps things at the same time, so actually where the wizard is getting 100% use out of whatever they cast for TWarp, the conjy is typically boosting their pet dps (if something is up) at the expense of their personal dps or the reverse and getting just a partial boost out of the same Twarp.

Good necros have not that dissimilar dps to conjurors from what I've personally seen.

[Mosha D'Khan]

snowline wrote:

Actually I think groupwide timewarp might benefit the necro more than the conjy, afterall a much higher percentage of the necro's dps comes from themselves so they can cast smart during the timewarp period. Conversely conjy have a much higher dps portion via their pet, and yes conjy have activated pet temp abilities, but if they are activating them the conjy can't cast anything for themselves, like damage, and any pet is going to cast dumb during timewarp.

It's the same whinge as I've heard sorcs who don't understand the conjuror class make: conjy get double use out of timewarp. But, while activating pet stuff during timewarp the conjy can't cast one of their personal dps things at the same time, so actually where the wizard is getting 100% use out of whatever they cast for TWarp, the conjy is typically boosting their pet dps (if something is up) at the expense of their personal dps or the reverse and getting just a partial boost out of the same Twarp.

Good necros have not that dissimilar dps to conjurors from what I've personally seen.

how does TW effect any necro at all? the only things that will benifit from Spell double attack would be our lifetap and AE? our DOTs are capped in ticks most of the time so SDAing them does nothing, our pets (if i remember right) are mostly a DOT type caster too... so not much benafit there either.... mind explaining it abit more?

[snowli]

Dot is another way of saying a nuke, with front loaded ability mod on first tick, that has repeating bonus damage if the mob's still alive, like in raid situations. Necro's do have lots of dots, but dots are hardly some special necro only thing, most classes have them, some have lots of dots.

Yes timewarp doesn't do good for doubling the bonus ticks but what about the front-end? I know sorcs especially wizards direct nukes have it better with twarp, but timewarp isn't anywhere as useless for necros as for healers say.

About 25% of a necro's damage comes off it's pet while the necro is busy doing the other 75% of their dps, so you can cast smart during twarp and use the best of your available personal skills. The assertion being made here that some massive balance shift has arrived... it just isn't the case in the raid parses I see, our conjy and necro are broadly doing the same as before the twarp change, sorcs did get a boost though, and the reason I suspect is the part that is being conveniently overlooked, which is:

To get their dps conjy has to be activating special stuff that gets channeled through the conjy pet, which necros aren't forced to do, and when conjy's are doing that they aren't doing other things, like personal dps abilities. The conjy is far more pet dependant and pet's always cast just as dumb during buff focal points as they dumbcast any other time.

If you want to say sorcs, especially wizards, got more out of groupwide timewarp than summoners I'd support that theory, and I see a small but noticeable effect when we raid. However saying necros got much worse deal than conjy, my raid parses aren't showing those figures.

[Cisgo]

  Have you ever seen a time warped Elemental Blast?  This is not a pet activated ability, it is a conjuror activated ability (through the pet).  What necros are saying is that there is nothing in thier DPS arsenal that comes close to that in terms of taking advantage of the TW buff.  Any "decently" raid geared conjuror can get close to 1 mil on a time warped EB (because EB is subject to crits, etc.), some can exceed that.  Necros can Lifetap and DoT the hell out of it for the 5 sec duration and still not get anywhere near that in return.

  I make my observations from a high end raiding standpoint. However, the balance issues may be alot less noticeable from a solo/group level and with this I understand where some may have different opinions. But, talking in terms of raiding and endgame the OP's title is very accurate.

  

[Masuma]

I am a conji. I believe in timing abilities. I always try to time with dispatch when we have a brigand in raid, which we unfortunately don't have recently.

I usually outparse necros but I also outparsed the other two conjis I raided with in the past by just as much. Reason I say that is: You can not just take one parse and point and say: Oh look the conji here does much more damage than the necro. Are you looking at people with the same skill level and same buffs and same gear?

About timewarp:

I believe groupwide timewarp has not affected my parse. Why?

.. because it is not on the same reuse. I sometimes find myself holding back Elemental Bast so I can time it with TW. And then it sometimes does not happen.. Holding back: Loss of DPS. Holding it back and then when TW is up, the crit proc is not up: Loss of DPS. When I happen to use EB with TW: yay, fun! (Unfortunately, my pet sometimes ends up with agro if timewarp was casted too early. Our Wizard does  not seem to have that problem.)

Conjurors have only one dps ability that is really worthwhile trying to use with TW. If that ability is not up, we won't notice timewarp much.

Sorcerers have more dps abilities that they can hit and get nice extra dps. I imagine they do not depend on timing it as conjis would do.

You know what I recently love to hit when timewarp is up? group stoneskin, when specced, personal stoneskin, pet deathsave.

You really should not call nerf just because you feel one of the summoner classes does better than the other one. Last expansion it was hard for summoners to even find a group for instances because people expected no dps and not enough utility to justify it. Now we do well, both summoner classes do. Necros do seem to need some attention, like "remove cap on extra dot ticks" and "remove mob life burn immunity", i admitted that before. Write about that and you have my support.

Meanwhile be happy that most of your dps comes from you and not your pet and enjoy that you are less effected by the fact that for some slots it is so difficult to get any good upgrades (from legendary) with pet focus unless your guild can kill the couple hardest raid mobs of the expansion. Enjoy that your pet has more HP and that when you look at your zonewide dps, the damage that shows up under your name (you+pet) is closer to 100% than whatever my pet and me have as average.

PS still shaking my head.. why do necros even compare lifeburn with elemental blast when they are abilities from different expansions? When necros already had lifeburn, conjis had no big spike ability at all. Compare your SF end ability with ours and whinge about the cap on extra dots instead.

[Germs666]

Quoted from Oonej on another eq2 site About the difference between conjis and necros:

"II've raided end gear material for a while now. We have a HUGE mage setup. 2 Warlocks, 1 Wizard, 1 Necro, 1 Conj. The necro typically NEVER beat me on the parse. The warlocks have a hard time keeping up against me, the only real challenge is beating the wizard. They are great dps, no doubt. But with the end raid gear, I've had no problems out parsing the necro every time. And to paint the picture even more clearer, I never get raid buffs (UT or TC) during raids. Since i'm usually in the group with the wizard and warlock, they get them over me and yet, i'm still 3-5 k under the wizard on long fights. On shorter fights, no one can hold up to a conj (imo) with all their temps up. I can do over 1.2 mil eb's, etc..."

Does this sound balanced?

[Masuma]

Weird, after my experience conjis do better on longer or named fights than they do on short fights.

There are exceptions of course: EB was up when TW was hit and it happened to crit without plane shift. I tend to keep plane shift for named fights unless there is much trash between the nameds like in underfoot (plane shift has a long reuse) and without the pet is under 50% crit chance (that is with troub). A double hitting, non criting EB can easily do less damage than a normal (single) hitting, critting EB on a debuffed mob.

Dear developers, please give necros a fun AA end ability next expansion so they are happier again and leave conjis alone.

[Germs666]

Shalin@Runnyeye wrote:

PS still shaking my head.. why do necros even compare lifeburn with elemental blast when they are abilities from different expansions? When necros already had lifeburn, conjis had no big spike ability at all. Compare your SF end ability with ours and whinge about the cap on extra dots instead.

Elemental Blast is simply a better version of Lifeburn.  There are no damage limits,minimal risk, more damage and a faster recast.

Pre SF necromancers actually had the chance to out parse conjis on single target encounters though on multi target encounters conjis would do better dps. Now we are getting smoked when TW is up!

[Masuma]

Germs666 wrote:

Elemental Blast is simply a better version of Lifeburn. 

you make no sense here.

anyway, all i am saying is, stop calling for nerf of classes that finally got some love and instead ask for fixes for the necro problems.

[Germs666]

I meant they got a better version of our huge single target damage spell. 

I don't care if they leave EB as is if they would remove the damage limit and immunity from lifeburn,cut its recast and let it be modified by crit,crit bonus,ability mod,DA and get the 2 extra ticks from AD

[nitrous]

Shalin@Runnyeye wrote:

Germs666 wrote:

Elemental Blast is simply a better version of Lifeburn. 

you make no sense here.

anyway, all i am saying is, stop calling for nerf of classes that finally got some love and instead ask for fixes for the necro problems.

Tottally agree.    Lets not re-nerf the Conj but fix the necros.    Conjs took a big nerf back in year 1 and it took all this time for them to get loving back.  

[Xeresta]

Davngr1 wrote:

-BUMP-

will my necro recieve any attention this expac?

Well, the answer was NO and in DoV ..... . SoE only think in conjurors again. Play another toon o left the game. These are the two options you have, because if some day they HEAR the necros, will be not to fix them (are a broken class) will be for nerf the conjis (is the SoE policy, the "easy" way).

[BetaTester]

a Necro has top parse of all my runs through Ring War ... things can't be tooooo bad

[acctlc]

You notice they all got *really* quiet after launch.   Hate to say I told you so in beta...but [Removed for Content]..I told you so in beta

[Solarax]

morelike most of us stopped playing. I havent logged in and played in 2 weeks and neither has 2 other necro mains i know.

[Hardain]

Well i'm parsing like mad in DoV, and so are other decent necros i've seen. Not the highest DPSing class out there, but still pretty [Removed for Content] good.

But still there are alot of things to fix, not solely necro related, mainly DoT cap and dumbfire pets still being ******.

[Nrgy]

Arieva@Oasis wrote:

You notice they all got *really* quiet after launch.   Hate to say I told you so in beta...but [Removed for Content]..I told you so in beta

All the Original issues and arguments STILL exist and will continue until SOE releases their promised of a Class Manifesto concerning archetypes.  The four class types with their three areas of focus and the two counterparts are still unstated.  It has and will continue to be how players view the classes until stated differently by SOE.  Each set being similar but in different ways.

• Sorcerers         Wizard – Warlock
• Druids              Warden – Fury
• Crusaders         Paladin – Shadow Knight  
• Summoners      Conjuror – Necromancer
• Etc…

Lifeburn and EB are the high damage single target mechanic for Summoners and should be, in some ways, on par with each other.  As it stands now EB is 10 times greater with far less risk then Lifeburn and EVERYONE knows it!  When released Lifeburn was on par with EB and was reduced for whatever reason by more then 60% not even mentioning the immunity lockout or the much longer refresh timers.  Since then and since EB was added the Archetypes have a huge disparity which needs to be leveled.

Now with DOV the DOT mechanic is even worse.  Mobs constantly cure DOTS not allowing them to ‘tick’ for anywhere near their full duration.  DOT stacking remains an issue.  Lifeburn lockout immunity, especially in ring wars, is a big issue.

Is it true that Necromancers are parsing high?  Yes!  I have personally parsed top 1 or 2 in dozens of full or multi-raid PQ’s.  People can be lazy during these types of events, but I doubt thats the case over the course of 40+ people in dozens of events over several weeks of play over an entire servers population.  Take what you will from this FACT as I have the parses to prove it.  That does not mean that broken mechanics or unequal archetype parity is not still an issue or that it should some how not be corrected or addressed in someway, even if SOE states that’s the way they intended it to be.  It is their place to say so and only their place.

Conjurors trying to stifle these truths or pretending they don’t exist in hopes that they (Conjurors) don’t receive an EB reduction (NERF) rather then Necromancers receive a fix to the broken mechanics (DOTS) or parity in spell output (LIFEBURN) is just plain sad.

[Urgol]

Nrgy wrote:

• Sorcerers         Wizard – Warlock
• Druids              Warden – Fury
• Crusaders         Paladin – Shadow Knight  
• Summoners      Conjuror – Necromancer

Wizards - warlocks

SKs - paladins

Furies - wardens

Necros - conjies

^ the correct version. The right side could be deleted from the game altogether and nobody will notice.