Guardians: Requesting Feedback

[vinere]

Recaputer - Highly useful on liek 3 mobs total.. totally worthless on the rest.. no clue what to do

Guardian Sphere - I only use this when i can be assured no one will be in range for me to intercept damage on, since getting hit with 6 x 30k ae's isnt the win.

And my last, and most needed fix, is making Unyielding will an UNTIL CANCLED BUFF.  You can leave it with the long recast, but having to GUESS when to use it is highly anoying.  For a lot of guilds the harder fights take 8-10+ min, and unyeilding only lasts 3-4 min.  So you ahve to guess if you think are going to die early in the fight, mid fight, or at the end of the fight.  And if you use it early, it wont be back up before the fight is over due to the long recast.  If you goal is to increase our surviveability this would be a great fix.

Also i forgot the name, but the endline in the war tree that increases our attributes when we drop under 50% health needs to be fixed.  I like the SF aa that increase your mitigation, but i think this AA needs reworked.  First it should allow the buff to last for 1 min when triggered, and just make it so it can only trigger once every 3 min.  Then make the SF aa add a strait damnage reductoin of 1% per rank so 8% total

Also i would really like the effect on our TSO BP's back.  We need a red adorn that adds teh 5% damage reductoin back to our bp's, since in the long run on most mobs, the 4% mitigation adorn is wasted anyway.

[LordPazuzu]

Xelgad wrote:

1. Got Your Back will become raidwide. Then it would protect the one or two other fighters on the raid or the zero other fighters in the group... still kinda worthless.
2. Cripple will become a maintainable debuff with a damage component. Meh.
3. Call of Shielding will also increase the health of the raid. The level 87 version at master will amount to around 1,000 hit points.  Considering how much the mobs can hit for, not that great either at this point but I'll take it.

None of these changes are all that great or desirable.  Guardian utility is not the issue.  The primary Guardian issues have been and remain to be lower DPS and threat generation, especially AOE threat generation.

For a raidwide ability, how about a raidwide Sentry Watch or Moderate.

[Iacon]

There are a number possiblities for improvement of Guardian utility, and I think it would be much more beneficial if some of our utility combat arts were looked at also.

Plant

What it does: Blue AOE root + Attack Speed debuff, also debuffs caster

What's wrong with it: Debuffing yourself own offensive capabilities and mobility is not preferable to say the least. Rooting mobs is very rarely useful (if you have agro they'll usually be where you want them anyway).

My Suggestion: Make it a buff that make Guardians immune the Knockback and Profession based teleportation spells (like Rift). Other tanks can get either temporary or permanent immunity to various status effects and I think this would be in line with those. Knockback effects are fairly prevailant at all levels of the game. There is nothing more annoying then having a dragon or some other mob kick you out of your position which in turn makes everyone else have to readjust.

Guardian Sphere

What it does: Groupwide intercept + Stoneskin trigger chance temp buff

What's wrong with it: It's a death trap. Who honestly thought intercepting the entire group's damage was a good idea?

My Suggestion: Groupwide Stone trigger chance with higher levels of the spell proccing more consistantly more times. Guaranteed not to cause spontaneous death.

Hunker Down

What it does: temporary self Mitigation buff + root proc chance + self debuff

What's wrong with it: Snaring and debuffing your own attack speed is bad. Rooting mobs isn't that useful.

My suggestion: Temporary self mitigation buff + Mutagenic Burst style AOE proc on incoming damage. This would help with hate management in AOE fights.

[Yimway]

Meaghan@Lucan DLere wrote:

None of these changes are all that great or desirable.  Guardian utility is not the issue.  The primary Guardian issues have been and remain to be lower DPS and threat generation, especially AOE threat generation.

Don't forget no real survivability differential vs other fighters, not that the content actually demands more survivability that has already been over-rewarded to *all* fighters.

[Onorem]

Thank you for acknowledging that there are issues to look at.

Please consider posting a notice about this somewhere outside the tucked behind an unexpanded Class Discussion forum heading.

I've levelled my guardian...through soloing, thanks for the additional stonebrunt quests by the way, they are necessary for classes that have little to no place in instances...but had given up following along the class forums quite a while ago. I only knew about this thread because a guildmate pointed it out.

1. Got Your Back was worthless before. Raidwide worthless is still worthless.

2. What's the proposed debuff? No point in commenting without anything remotely specific.

3. 1000 hp raidwide is nice...but not a reason to bring a class that brings nothing else.

Utility is a problem, but not "the problem." If you're limited to focusing on one thing at a time, please consider closing this thread and starting a new one that might help the class.

[Wasuna]

I'd have to agree with multiple posts here. The three prime things I'd like to see providing additional utility are:

1. Guardian Sphere - The one guardian group buff that is NEVER used in a group and used ALL THE TIME when solo. The whole concept of this buff is just wrong. Remove the stone skin and make is so that the Guardian only gets 10-20% of the damage (mitigated to our stats, we are the one getting hit by the way) from any intercept check that hits. This would NOT be used while MTing but it could help a group a huge amount. I'd almost hate to see this happen becasue I use this ability all the time when soloing faction or something.

2. Recapture - This is just a stupid spell. Do you even play the game? I don't have a second fighetr in a group more than 5% of the time. And, since I'm a Guardian with terrible DPS I'm always the tank since the other guy can do better in a DPS role and help the group more. So, you give me a spell to help another fighter keep agro? Really? Heck, it would be more useful if it reduced other fighters in agro level but that would only helps 5% of the time. And, if I'm bring other fighters into a group (usually a brawler) then I have sucky dps choices already and I just moderate them.

3. Unyielding will. Dunno if this is a utility item but it would sure help if it had a longer duration. Until Canceled would wonderful but I can't see that being added.

[Salarionn]

Wasuna wrote:

>3. Unyielding will. Dunno if this is a utility item but it would sure help if it had a longer duration. Until Canceled would wonderful but I can't see that being added.

 

I find this to be the biggest tease skill we have since when you are really in need of it, you cant hit it and have it instantly be usable its takes a few seconds for it to actually be up and ready. Whats the point of a awesome DI when you cant have it rdy when casted? When you're red and you know your about to drop, you hit it and pray the healers get at least one more good reactive/ward on you so it has time to actually be proc'd. Why make it flip through the rainbow or colors before it turns red and usable? This should be a insta cast, insta use... not wait a couple seconds and pray thing. Furthermore, even when I do manage to get it up and usable I have still died because it doesnt work 100% of the time.

[steveatk]

Xelgad wrote:

It's utility that we want to focus this thread on. We want to bring Guardian utility up to the level that the other fighters bring to a group or raid. We have three tentative changes that will be going to test soon:

1. Got Your Back will become raidwide.
2. Cripple will become a maintainable debuff with a damage component.
3. Call of Shielding will also increase the health of the raid. The level 87 version at master will amount to around 1,000 hit points.

It's good to see that you recognise that there are issues and I hope your proposed solutions to the other issues that we have is forthcoming soon, especially with regards to agro.

Obviously the utility needs to be defensive in nature, that's a given

Guardian Sphere. The first thing to do is let us protect our group/raid not by intercepting and taking the damage (because those skills KILL us and then everyone else dies anyway) but by giving stone skin procs. If stoneskins also have a hate component towards the Guardian then that's even better.

Nobody will spec into Got Your Back. You will have to do a LOT more to the skill than give us the ability to protect 2 other fighters in a raid and nobody in a group. You will also need to make the choices in that tree more attractive because we still won't take it even if it does become worthwhile and the rest of the tree remains unchanged - even then we would have to lose significant defensive or agro choices to take it so it would need to be very special indeed.

What is the debuff on Cripple that you propose?

You would need to add more health than that to Call of Shielding or add mitigation/stone skin proc to it alongside that 1,000 health to make it worthwhile and reinforce the fact that we are protectors of others.

Recapture needs to be scrapped and re-done. Why would I ever want to help other tanks take agro when none of them struggle with it? What use is this skill in a group situation? I maintain that it needs to be a large true AOE taunt as an attention grabber much like gibe, grave sacrament and holy ground.

[Landiin]

Xelgad thanks for acknowledge that you guys are working on the class and know it is badly broken. The thing is, we need to see the bigger plan in order to give good informed feedback. So with out knowing the entire plan we just balance these changes for the way it is now and well they are very lack luster for the way things are now, Sorry to say. However we do thank you for looking at our class.

[lollipop]

Xelgad wrote:

Greetings Guardians!First off, allow me say that we understand that the class is being outshined at the moment, and we’re working on it. It's going to take more than just one change to get Guardians back to working as a strong class again. I'm not going into details yet, but we do have a mechanics change in the works that will at least help a bit to distinguish Guardians as a more defensive tank. Even with that, the class is currently lacking in other areas, including threat generation and utility.It's utility that we want to focus this thread on. We want to bring Guardian utility up to the level that the other fighters bring to a group or raid. We have three tentative changes that will be going to test soon:

1. Got Your Back will become raidwide.
2. Cripple will become a maintainable debuff with a damage component.
3. Call of Shielding will also increase the health of the raid. The level 87 version at master will amount to around 1,000 hit points.

We’re looking for feedback on these ideas, and we’re open to boosting Guardian utility even a bit further, especially in heroic content. I want to emphasize that we’re not trying to turn Guardians into plate-wearing Bards or anything of the sort. However, I do want to try to focus this thread on the utility aspect of the class.

Another mechanics change. [Removed for Content] do you all have to change mechanics every xpac. or should I say every new dev, [Removed for Content]. Stop trying to re-invent the game all the time. Fix the crap that needs to be fixed and tweak skills.

[Rahatmattata]

It's all well and good to tell Xelgad and other people why their ideas suck and won't work, but unless you are providing better ideas, your post is really just clutter to be sifted through to get to the ideas... including this one, so I'm gonna keep it short.

On second thought... I'm just gonna throw this out there. Some of these are probably OP, or maybe useless... but I'll leave that up to the game devs to decide.

Dragoon Reflexes -> Remove Stifle.

Got Your Back -> Group aoe prevent. Maybe put a condition on it such as must be standing behind the guardian or near or something.

Recapture -> PBAoE increases threat to all fighters (not position) and increase flurry chance of all fighters by oh... idk... 5%?

Battle Cry -> the lower each group members' HP is, the more damage reduction they get from Battle Cry. Something like for every 10% HP they lose, they get 1.5% damage reduction.

Defensive Minded -> Either avoidance, casting haste/reuse, or both components become group-wide

Repeated from previous post

Sentry Watch -> Again... should prevent death from all types of damage (except maybe falling damage or drowning )

Unyielding Will -> Buff stays on until canceled.

Tower of Stone -> Casting time reduced to 0.5 seconds.

[Onorem]

Rahatmattata wrote:

It's all well and good to tell Xelgad and other people why their ideas suck and won't work, but unless you are providing better ideas, your post is really just clutter to be sifted through to get to the ideas... including this one, so I'm gonna keep it short.

I don't have all the answers, nor do I claim to. Not being able to provide a solution is not a reason against explaining why the proposed solution isn't likely to be effective.

[Rahatmattata]

Alright, but this is our chance to have direct input into how we think guardians should work... so we should not waste the opportunity, and give it a decent shot at coming up with ideas to make guards viable.

[NakuniBu]

I know lots of guardians want to be the end all be all "main tank", but I don't really think thats a realistic goal without alienating all other fighters, so the real problem can only be dps, or lack there of.  So looking at it from the fact that we're suppose to be a single target tank, why can't we do the most or near the most single target dps?

a flurry of 5-10% would probably be the "easiest" fix, since it doesn't affect antyhing aoe related.

Would love the idea of just changing guardian sphere to be a group wide stone skin proc (3-5% trigger maybe?)

Making a raidwide of 1k hp is going to be laughed at pretty much by anyone raiding hard modes, like its been stated before if your not bringing dps your not really bringing anything.  How about adding a %3-5 increase in procs, to go along with it.

Also why is our myth damage reduction, of all the 3 fighter myths that reduce damage, the only one thats a proc instead of just a constant?  Switching this to a 5%+ ALL dmg reduction permanently on would do a lot to help us stay on track with what a paladin brings.

[Netty]

Like some of the ideas. But dont really think guards need a huge boost in dps. UT/hate is the way to go and some more dps. Guards are a leader and should be experts on fighting skill/def. Cant really remeber the names on some buffs since i havent played my guard since tso. Here are some ideas anyway. 5% hit chance on combat skill buff. Sphere need to be fixed since it will kill you more than its saves the group so lower the damage you take from you group members alot. Dont remove it since i really think that would be to OP but lower it. Plant. Well i dont understand why this one got changed in the first place... It should be KB immune its not OP at all imo... since you get rooted yourself and KB can easy be avoided by tanking up on a wall. add some threat on 100% when the guardian takes damage and plant is up. This will help guards alot in aoe cont and ST cont. Raid wide buff. Since def doesent work on raids it makes no sens to have this buff. Even in group cont this buff is useless since the mob should hit the guard not your group members. Change it to something els. raid wide health and with AA add 5% hit chance or something like that. Got your back should be a group aoe block.. make it have higher reuse speed or what ever to not be to OP. Since most of the AA:s over you have to place points in this buff really need to be something better than protect other fighters or none would ever spec in it anyway. Guard myth got destroyed in rok after being the best weapon of all fighters. I mean the proc alone was changed at first from 10% damage reduction to 5% since the guard got so much unconntested avoidance from it anyway. If you want it to stay as a proc change it back to 10% damage reduction guards are def tanks after all. I really think guards should get some kinda of damage bonus when using a shield this is where the so called defensiv tank lack the most. Not sure how tho. Recapture. Make it increase the guards threat aswell when using it that way you will make sure your OT will get the mob if you die mob memwipe or something like that. As it is now with the low hate gain of the guardian he wont be tanking at all when using it. cripple reduce the mobs damge out put. Not sure what your idea was but this is mine anyway.

[Gungo]

I think its fairly safe to say all guardians are pretty unanimous on the following abilites being improved

1) Guardian Sphere2) Recapture3) Unyielding will4) Plant

What alot of posters have said is these abilites should be changed as follows to improve utility and guardians Main tank role. 

1. Guardian Sphere - Remove the stone skin and make it a group 20% damage reduction buff. It will support the guardians defense role, Main tank role, and group survivability. 

2. Recapture - Keep the raid wise positional increase for all fighters. This helps in tank swaps. Add in a group positional decrease to make it useful in groups. Maybe get creative and put a short duration reactive hate proc on the guardian so he could recapture hate if he so desires or build hate with another target during tank switches. 

3. Unyielding will- Until Canceled. If 2 of the most powerful fighters (zerkers, shadowknights) have an until canceled death prevent (actually MULTIPLE triggers), every fighter needs at least 1 until canceled trigger, especially the class that is suppose to be the most defensive of the lot. 

4) Plant- Knockback immunity will help. Especially since plant is not a permanent ability. If that is not an option remove the root.

 

[Rahatmattata]

...

[steveatk]

I'd rather keep Guardian Sphere as a group stone skin but remove the part where the Guardian intercepts the damage and kills himself

Would also rather see Recapture as an AOE agro grabber for the heroic level guardians

Agree on the other 2

[Elvondil]

My mistake

[Emlar_from_Halas]

Gungo wrote:

I think its fairly safe to say all guardians are pretty unanimous on the following abilites being improved

1) Guardian Sphere2) Recapture3) Unyielding will4) Plant

What alot of posters have said is these abilites should be changed as follows to improve utility and guardians Main tank role. 

1. Guardian Sphere - Remove the stone skin and make it a group 20% damage reduction buff. It will support the guardians defense role, Main tank role, and group survivability. 

2. Recapture - Keep the raid wise positional increase for all fighters. This helps in tank swaps. Add in a group positional decrease to make it useful in groups. Maybe get creative and put a short duration reactive hate proc on the guardian so he could recapture hate if he so desires or build hate with another target during tank switches. 

3. Unyielding will- Until Canceled. If 2 of the most powerful fighters (zerkers, shadowknights) have an until canceled death prevent (actually MULTIPLE triggers), every fighter needs at least 1 until canceled trigger, especially the class that is suppose to be the most defensive of the lot. 

4) Plant- Knockback immunity will help. Especially since plant is not a permanent ability. If that is not an option remove the root.

We are indeed, still, I don't jump to your conclusions.

I Love the stone skin proc of Guardian Sphere and don't want to lose it. I've been used to it for years now, even if using Guardian Sphere is pretty challenging in raids. Therefore, change "got your back" into a Guardian Sphere" modifier that removes 75% of dmg intercepted by Guardian. Less powerful than anti-AE, but quite usefull.

Recapture is fine with me. I'm using it both on Rathgar and Toxx, and I love this CA. Though I agree it's useless in groups.

Unyielding Will became a must for guardians with the new SoF AA. Changing it to "Until Canceled" would be even better, but I can live without it.

Add 3K threat to Plant V.

Modify Belly smash to work also on rooted mobs and increase duration to 15 secs. This would provide a substantial dps increase to melee classes both in raids and groups.

[dr4gonUK]

Xelgad wrote:

1. Got Your Back will become raidwide.
2. Cripple will become a maintainable debuff with a damage component.
3. Call of Shielding will also increase the health of the raid. The level 87 version at master will amount to around 1,000 hit points.

1. Is this not setting a new precedent( i dont think there's another class that has raidwide aoe block)? Its a worthless aa as it stands. Raidwide makes this useful.

2. Is this a nerf or an upgrade?

3. Like it.

[MurFalad]

Xelgad wrote:

It's utility that we want to focus this thread on. We want to bring Guardian utility up to the level that the other fighters bring to a group or raid. We have three tentative changes that will be going to test soon:

1. Got Your Back will become raidwide.
2. Cripple will become a maintainable debuff with a damage component.
3. Call of Shielding will also increase the health of the raid. The level 87 version at master will amount to around 1,000 hit points.

We’re looking for feedback on these ideas, and we’re open to boosting Guardian utility even a bit further, especially in heroic content. I want to emphasize that we’re not trying to turn Guardians into plate-wearing Bards or anything of the sort. However, I do want to try to focus this thread on the utility aspect of the class.

Well my feedback on these three ideas is here, although I rarely raid so I'm more interested in the group effects

1) Got your back, I have specc'd this, but only out of curiosity, sometimes if I'm in a group with an extra fighter I use it ypically battlegrounds.  Perhaps make this work differently in non-raid zones, something like a taunt that we can apply to a party member to gain aggro on all the mobs on them would be useful.

2) It sounds ok, but since the mythical gets rid of the need for riposte the whole talent looks useless, personally I think the mythical buffs being so powerful forever here is a mistake, but that's a different issue.

3) That sounds useful and quite powerful, but if the raid can survive with a beserker or SK then they get more DPS, for the amount to be so good that it makes a Guardian attractive I think it would also make the Guardian OP, it is a useful buff though.

For me the problems I see with Guardians are partly the class and partly the content.  On the class I think one big problem is our very low threat generation.  Our taunts just don't seem to have scaled with the DPS this expansion having gone up about 20% only, Sentinel strike especially is stuck back at level 80.

The other problem with the class is AOE tanking, where we rely very heavily on reactive procs that rely on us having aggro to start with, so as soon as we lose aggro on a mob we have no tools to get it back, especially with the speed of combat and the difficulty to target in EQ2 this is a problem.  This compares to crusader tanks that actively build up threat.

At the same time a lot more of the challenge of group content now in SF is in AOE tanking and gaining and holding aggro on multiple mobs, so between the guardians poor AOE aggro generation and the preference for an AOE tank for group content the guardian is in a bad spot.  Personally I'd like to see less AOE tanking and more crowd control and tactics (e.g. have mobs that give an avoidance debuff that stacks with the number we tank in melee range).

But since its probably unlikely to change the content something drastic for the tanking would be needed, I wonder if changing shout to effect either the whole group or the top 5 mobs already aggro'd to the Guardian?  As often I have the problem where 2-3 encounters are aggro'd to me, but they are just single mob encounters.  I'm not really a fan of AOE tanking though and would not want the solution to just turn Guardians into another flavour of crusader.

Lastly I would definitely like to see the flavour of the guardians very much put as the shield of the group such as

Guardian Sphere - A group stoneskin or a heavily mitigated absorb.

Unyielding will - instant cast, its enough of a decision for guardians to make to use it at the right time.

Plant - Adding a knockback protection would be very useful

I've got your back - Make it get aggro on all mobs currently aggro'd to target group member along with the AOE prevention so it has two functions that work at the same time.

Recapture - Not sure really, its a raid only spell which is maybe nice there but useless elsewhere else, maybe just delete it and make the existing spells more powerful?  I think we have too many abilities as it is, although perhaps changing it to something interesting with the shield instead though would be better.

[Soul_Dreamer]

Emlar@Storms wrote:

Gungo wrote:

I think its fairly safe to say all guardians are pretty unanimous on the following abilites being improved

1) Guardian Sphere2) Recapture3) Unyielding will4) Plant

What alot of posters have said is these abilites should be changed as follows to improve utility and guardians Main tank role. 

1. Guardian Sphere - Remove the stone skin and make it a group 20% damage reduction buff. It will support the guardians defense role, Main tank role, and group survivability. 

2. Recapture - Keep the raid wise positional increase for all fighters. This helps in tank swaps. Add in a group positional decrease to make it useful in groups. Maybe get creative and put a short duration reactive hate proc on the guardian so he could recapture hate if he so desires or build hate with another target during tank switches. 

3. Unyielding will- Until Canceled. If 2 of the most powerful fighters (zerkers, shadowknights) have an until canceled death prevent (actually MULTIPLE triggers), every fighter needs at least 1 until canceled trigger, especially the class that is suppose to be the most defensive of the lot. 

4) Plant- Knockback immunity will help. Especially since plant is not a permanent ability. If that is not an option remove the root.

We are indeed, still, I don't jump to your conclusions.

I Love the stone skin proc of Guardian Sphere and don't want to lose it. I've been used to it for years now, even if using Guardian Sphere is pretty challenging in raids. Therefore, change "got your back" into a Guardian Sphere" modifier that removes 75% of dmg intercepted by Guardian. Less powerful than anti-AE, but quite usefull.

Sorry I don't want to fix a broken CA by using AA abilities, fix the CA and give something useful to Got your back, group AOE Avoid is perfect and fits with the Guardian. A Guardians healer should be able to live through AOE's/Avoid AOE's that they couldn't with another tank.

Recapture is fine with me. I'm using it both on Rathgar and Toxx, and I love this CA. Though I agree it's useless in groups.

As you said, useless in groups, add hate to tanks and the Guardian, deagro to group/raid members (non tank).

Unyielding Will became a must for guardians with the new SoF AA. Changing it to "Until Canceled" would be even better, but I can live without it.

There is no reason this shouldn't be done when other tanks have always on deaths prevents and as previously stated MULTIPLE Triggers.

Add 3K threat to Plant V.

KB Immunity on it please, remove the part that debuffs the Guardian and also a Mutagenic burst style proc AOE on damage.

Modify Belly smash to work also on rooted mobs and increase duration to 15 secs. This would provide a substantial dps increase to melee classes both in raids and groups.

No, brigands are already complaining they are useless or next to it in raids since mobs are so heavily debuffed to this type of mitigation debuff. If you want it changed make it decrease incomming damage on an attack by 10% and then make it always useable.

1. Got your back - group wide and all classes, proposed change will do nothing. 

2. Cripple - Add hate to every CA in the line, not just debuffs, the CA needs to reduce a mobs crit bonus/potency by 10% for 10 seconds after EVERY CA effected by the aa's in the line.

3. Call of shielding - 1000 hp and a 10% chance to deathsave anyone in the raid, remove the defense if defense is going to stay as useles as it is now.

There are literally 100's of ideas on these forums posted by 10's of Guardians over the past 2 years suggesting beneficial changes/fixes. The Guardian class needs fixing with hate/dps and fixing soon, you can already see just how few Guardians there are compared to other tank classes across all playstyles be it Solo/Group/PvP and now even raid.

Utility really isn't the way to go though, Guardians need HATE and DPS. Someone said earlier they don't think Guardians should have more hate or DPS especially or AOE hate.. why not? Every other tank class has been encroaching on Guardian survivability and being given Guardian survivability style tools for 3 expansions now and had to pay nothing in their DPS or Hate for it or been given even more DPS/Hate while being given these tools. 

As I said above, a group/raid with a Guardian in it should be more stable than one without, this is the utility a Guardian should bring. At the same time they need the DPS and Hate to hold a mob in ALL situations just like every other tank can..

Unless these "Mechanics" changes are going to bring other tanks survivability down it's a pointless change since the small gain in survivability a Guardian offers just isn't needed anywhere in game currently.

[Yimway]

Gungo wrote:

I think its fairly safe to say all guardians are pretty unanimous on the following abilites being improved

1) Guardian Sphere2) Recapture3) Unyielding will4) Plant

TBH, don't really care about unyielding will.  Death save's belong to healers imo, tanks have no business with complete heals.  Remove them from all tanks and the game will be healthier.

[Rahatmattata]

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

2. Cripple - Add hate to every CA in the line, not just debuffs, the CA needs to reduce a mobs crit bonus/potency by 10% for 10 seconds after EVERY CA effected by the aa's in the line.

This is useless except in pvp and TSO/SF raiding. And is knockback really that big of a deal? It's not like we're casting spells that keep getting interrupted.

[Xelgad]

Thank you all for the feedback so far!Just to address one general point, we're trying to take a more subtle approach in adjusting this class. Instead of making one or two drastic changes, we're going for maybe a dozen smaller fixes and upgrades that result in a more balanced and better working Guardian. These fixes and upgrades will go beyond just utility. In that sense, it's good to hear that these changes won't immediately make Guardians desirable for every raid, since we certainly don't want utility to be the driving force that gets Guardians into raids. Furthermore, please remember that “Got Your Back” and “Cripple” are still Echoes of Faydwer Advancements and need to be balanced as such. The fact that some of you like the “Got Your Back” change while others still prefer other options is a sign that the proposed change is in the realm of balance.To clarify, the current plan for the Cripple debuff is a 75% reduction to target's riposte damage. While we're aware that Guardians are immune to riposte damage at end game, we still see a situational use for the debuff in cases where it's dangerous or impossible for scouts and healers to position behind the target. The added damage component is not insignificant and has a very low chance to miss. More feedback on this would be welcomed.While some of your other suggestions may make it in game, we especially like the idea to upgrade Guardian Sphere, since it could be a great way to provide some defensive utility that would be useful in heroic content. The tentative plan is to change Guardian Sphere into a group buff that grants all non-fighters a 50% (at master) chance to stoneskin. The Guardian will have a 25% (at master) chance to stoneskin him or herself. The casting time has been reduced to 0.5 seconds, the radius has been increased to 35 meters, the duration maxes out at 20 seconds and there is no limit on the number of stoneskins that can trigger during the duration.

[Rhita]

I love that Guardian Sphere upgrade, sounds very useful and would give the guard a good edge for a defensive MT grp. The Cripple line still doesnt sound too great. Last expansion when i would duel wield to dp dps, i think riposte would be like 70dps zonewide damage to me, thats not gonna kill a scout. An AoE auto attack would kill a scout.

That alone won't make us wanted but its a start.

Still would like to see plant upgraded to something more useful. Not sure if you have an idea for that but as I mentioned, Its an ability that last 10seconds, up to 13 seconds with AAs. Making it root the guardian and making him immune to knockback would not overpower the class but would be another edge for the MT spot. Crusaders get immune to fear, so they cant complain that we get a temp buff for KBs

[Macross_JR]

Xelgad wrote:

Thank you all for the feedback so far!Just to address one general point, we're trying to take a more subtle approach in adjusting this class. Instead of making one or two drastic changes, we're going for maybe a dozen smaller fixes and upgrades that result in a more balanced and better working Guardian. These fixes and upgrades will go beyond just utility. In that sense, it's good to hear that these changes won't immediately make Guardians desirable for every raid, since we certainly don't want utility to be the driving force that gets Guardians into raids. Furthermore, please remember that “Got Your Back” and “Cripple” are still Echoes of Faydwer Advancements and need to be balanced as such. The fact that some of you like the “Got Your Back” change while others still prefer other options is a sign that the proposed change is in the realm of balance.To clarify, the current plan for the Cripple debuff is a 75% reduction to target's riposte damage. While we're aware that Guardians are immune to riposte damage at end game, we still see a situational use for the debuff in cases where it's dangerous or impossible for scouts and healers to position behind the target. The added damage component is not insignificant and has a very low chance to miss. More feedback on this would be welcomed.While some of your other suggestions may make it in game, we especially like the idea to upgrade Guardian Sphere, since it could be a great way to provide some defensive utility that would be useful in heroic content. The tentative plan is to change Guardian Sphere into a group buff that grants all non-fighters a 50% (at master) chance to stoneskin. The Guardian will have a 25% (at master) chance to stoneskin him or herself. The casting time has been reduced to 0.5 seconds, the radius has been increased to 35 meters, the duration maxes out at 20 seconds and there is no limit on the number of stoneskins that can trigger during the duration.

I'm sorry, but Got Your Back is a crap change period.  Also, the reasoning for not changing it to something else doesn't fly.  The debuff for Cripple is a joke as riposte damage from anything other then raid mobs is a joke.  The only thing is people might, and I stress MIGHT, take a Guardian for Cripple so he can be in the short bus group to help the raid while he does crap to really help.  At the moment that debuff is not needed and honestly the scouts and healers don't take that much damage from riposte over just plain frontal attacks.  I will say, the change to Guardians Sphere is cool, but in all honestly until you come forth with exactly the full plan anything else you do is meh.  Guardians need help in threat the most and here you are wanting to change utility.  Fix what is wrong the most first then work on the minor things.

[Ardors]

It's refreshing to see the Guardian class will receive some much needed attention soon...not too early for sure.

Making smaller changes is a better approach I agree, and here's what I think need to be keep in perspective when changing things;

For raids, two overall changes need to happen to make a "a more balance and better Guardian" as you put it. First off, we simply cannot generate only half the dps of other fighters, while using a shield, without a serious change to threat generation. I don’t mind keeping a lower dps if we are given other tools to compete in TPS. And secondly, if we are to keep our lower DPS, then our more defensive nature need to mean something...as it stand now, were all equal in that department...

Also, please revisit the AE tank vs single target tank idea... It's been flawed from day one....this has been mentioned countless times here on these forums... AE tanks tools are working on single targets...not vice versa...

The diminishing return curve and stats cap is crippling the guarding imo, what good are my tools to short term increase my defence when I am already at cap without them…

Many ideas on what could be changed has been mentioned already, so I wont be redundant and repeat the same stuff, but I hope Xelgad, you keep what I just wrote in perspective when making changes…anything else you change will make the non raid Guard more desirable, and that’s great, but for the raid guards, what I mentioned is paramount.

Good luck and Thanks!

 

 

 

 

[Soul_Dreamer]

Xelgad wrote:

Thank you all for the feedback so far!Just to address one general point, we're trying to take a more subtle approach in adjusting this class. Instead of making one or two drastic changes, we're going for maybe a dozen smaller fixes and upgrades that result in a more balanced and better working Guardian. These fixes and upgrades will go beyond just utility. In that sense, it's good to hear that these changes won't immediately make Guardians desirable for every raid, since we certainly don't want utility to be the driving force that gets Guardians into raids. Furthermore, please remember that “Got Your Back” and “Cripple” are still Echoes of Faydwer Advancements and need to be balanced as such. The fact that some of you like the “Got Your Back” change while others still prefer other options is a sign that the proposed change is in the realm of balance.

This will be to situational to use, I can only think of 1 or 2 fights it could be usefull to protect other fighters in a raid from AOE's it will also do nothing for group content still, I won't be giving up vital DPS AA's to get this.To clarify, the current plan for the Cripple debuff is a 75% reduction to target's riposte damage. While we're aware that Guardians are immune to riposte damage at end game, we still see a situational use for the debuff in cases where it's dangerous or impossible for scouts and healers to position behind the target. The added damage component is not insignificant and has a very low chance to miss. More feedback on this would be welcomed.

Frontal AOE auto attacks kill people, NOT riposte damage, this AA is still worthless. I've grouped and raided on Warlock(Original, DoF, KoS)/Brigand(KoS, EoF)/Guardian(RoK > Present) and never, not once has a riposte killed me. The tiny gain from the debuff enhancements and this debuff simply aren't worth wasting points on. 

As an example SK's get:Hateful respite (Absorb damage and deal damage)Reaver (2% Heal on every spell) Pools of blood (I seem to remeber it being about 1.8k unconsius HP)

Guardians:Got your back - AOE avoid for all FIGHTERS in the group/raid.Double attack - 9% Double attack.Cripple - ...........................Block - 1 Block.

How is 75% reduction a mobs riposte damage balanced to any of the SK buffs ESPECIALLY when the tank with the ability is 100% immune to riposte damage. And it's not end game it's ALL level 90 Guardians, everyone now has access to the Mythical buff. Then take into acccount the lacklustre other AA end lines.... Some change on cripple is really need but anything is more usefull than this. Just save the time and don't change it if this is the case because NO ONE will use it.

Guardians are in dire need of hate/dps/utility if you're looking to change these old abilities they are ideal places to put some of these things. 

While some of your other suggestions may make it in game, we especially like the idea to upgrade Guardian Sphere, since it could be a great way to provide some defensive utility that would be useful in heroic content. The tentative plan is to change Guardian Sphere into a group buff that grants all non-fighters a 50% (at master) chance to stoneskin. The Guardian will have a 25% (at master) chance to stoneskin him or herself. The casting time has been reduced to 0.5 seconds, the radius has been increased to 35 meters, the duration maxes out at 20 seconds and there is no limit on the number of stoneskins that can trigger during the duration.

Perfect change and much needed, mobs I need this ability on I can't use it since I'll die.