Questions, concerns, or comments about the Top End Guild DPS Parses thread?

[Crismorn]

I've only seen one top-end guild parse in that thread so its not surprising that they dont have all 24 classes

[Landiin]

Azian@Everfrost wrote:

Toranx@Crushbone wrote:

Striikor@Nektulos wrote:

This is not about balance at all, attempts to derail it to balance issues are wasted. This is about mob adjustment. There are no balance issues, everything is fine. That has been clearly stated by representatives of SOE.

Yea all classes are balanced alright! Hey wait, I didn't see a warrior in any of the posted parses... *GASP*

I THINK Striikor was being sarcastic about class balance.  That said, you need to look more closely.  There are warriors in a number of them.  I don't see any guards though.  I believe that is really what you are driving at anyway.

I kind of figured he was but used it for an opening any ways Yea Now I go back a relooked I did see 3 zerkers, I was surprised when i didn't see any in the 1st place. You was right about my driving point

[SacDaddy420]

First off, great attempt at trolling davion.  No really...

Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....

This is why I have always been more of a fan of the percent of the total DPS.  For example , in my parse I am 13% of the raidwide.   Percents are alot easier to understand and in my opinion, tell more of the story.

One more thing, if any of you are looking at Dakkota and my parses, and thinking this represents even 5% of the wizards in this game, you're wrong.  These numbers are from the highest skilled players, who have spent literally years refining and adjusting their game to become the where they are today.   I take my parses very seriously.  Every pull.  Every night.  For the last 5 years.   This is exactly whats fun about eq2 for me.

[Bruener]

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

First off, great attempt at trolling davion.  No really...

Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....

This is why I have always been more of a fan of the percent of the total DPS.  For example , in my parse I am 13% of the raidwide.   Percents are alot easier to understand and in my opinion, tell more of the story.

One more thing, if any of you are looking at Dakkota and my parses, and thinking this represents even 5% of the wizards in this game, you're wrong.  These numbers are from the highest skilled players, who have spent literally years refining and adjusting their game to become the where they are today.   I take my parses very seriously.  Every pull.  Every night.  For the last 5 years.   This is exactly whats fun about eq2 for me.

Not gonna argue here but when I read this it just made me think of how Dakkota said he DPS's well.....mash buttons!!!!!

And really that is the truth of it....never understood why people can't DPS better.

[SacDaddy420]

I personally roll a pepsi can across my keyboard, tbh

[Putyo]

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....

Nope, maybe it will change with a full set of hardmode wing 3 gear but right now it doesnt really matter what you do, you are +- 50k as a ranger

[Gaige]

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

This is why I have always been more of a fan of the percent of the total DPS.  For example , in my parse I am 13% of the raidwide.   Percents are alot easier to understand and in my opinion, tell more of the story.

They tell a story about how the rest of your raid isn't living up to their potential.

[Boise]

Carthrax wrote:

Boise wrote:

Azian@Everfrost wrote:

Boise wrote:

It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing.

Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions.  I'd read it exactly the opposite.  I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid.  I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses.  None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them.  Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps.

Exactly. Why have a ranger in a raid that might do 47-50k dps on rathgar when an assassin can easily do 65-70k dps?

My point is pretty simple. Figures do not lie. 47k or 65k?  <----Thats a pretty large gap in dps between 2 "supposedly" tier 1 classes.

You are completely clueless Boise.. You can't do a blanket comparison from two different guilds..

Do you honestly think the best ranger WW will beat the best assassin WW if both are in the same group??? Do you think any ranger can come close to (for reference sake) Gaige's number if that ranger was equally buffed??

I think you are clueless.

[Neiloch]

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....

And it doesn't matter how 'skilled' you are this game is ultimately based on numbers determining the absolute highest outcome. The skill is getting as close as possible to that highest possible outcome. So if a class potential restricts them to X amount of maximum DPS output, no amount of will or skill or trying will make that number higher. This isn't the Matrix or some crap where if you 'believe' enough you can bend the rules. With your logic a Defiler could regurlarly put out 60k DPS on just about any fight if they are just 'trying harder'

Also you took the comment out of context to construct your straw man argument.

Pudaanza@Nagafen wrote:

Rangers cap out at about 50k give or take, there is basically no way to push that higher whatsoever unless it is an aoe encounter.

I have found this to be more or less true. All things being equal; skill, level of equipment and buffs, at the very least a ranger will get beat by an assassin and wizard most of the time, the actual reality being much grimmer for rangers. Basing your performance on how many people your beating in raid or the percent of overall DPS you are doing is fail, unless all you want to do is make sure your guild doesn't boot you or have you sit on raids constantly.

And people are right, you can't draw conclusions on parses from two different guilds. That's why we have been basing it on parses from roughly a dozen guilds and rangers for about 2 years. A bunch of top end min/max rangers didn't betray/reroll because they were doing awesomely and just wanted to mix things up.

[circusgirl]

Rathgar is a pretty good mob in my opinion, since he's a straight dps race with very little to interfere with that for anything but fighters.  It is a little disconcerting to see that at my count we're up to :

SKs: 10

Pally: 2

Zerkers: 2

Monks: 1

Bruiser: 0

Guards: 0

Thats uh...pretty imbalanced as far as fighter representation goes.  80% of the fighters on raids are crusaders, 13.3% warriors, 6.7% brawlers.

[SacDaddy420]

Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....

And it doesn't matter how 'skilled' you are this game is ultimately based on numbers determining the absolute highest outcome. The skill is getting as close as possible to that highest possible outcome. So if a class potential restricts them to X amount of maximum DPS output, no amount of will or skill or trying will make that number higher. This isn't the Matrix or some crap where if you 'believe' enough you can bend the rules. With your logic a Defiler could regurlarly put out 60k DPS on just about any fight if they are just 'trying harder'

Also you took the comment out of context to construct your straw man argument.

Does saying "straw man" make you automatically correct these days?  I dont think so. I am also 90% sure this isnt the Matrix.

However I am 100% sure that you, my compadre, are mistaken.  Are we playing the same game?  are defilers dps now? No, they arent.  nice try though.   By my logic, a defiler COULD parse 60K.  If the rest of the raidforce was combined at 6 million. 

  Maybe an awesome defiler could pull it off at 4 million.   who knows.   Try Harder.

Note the underlined part.   Attempt to comprehend it.   If you wanna cry about rangers then whatever.  I dont care about that.  Im not a ranger /wink.

[SacDaddy420]

Let me ask you these questions:

Two equally skilled predators.   Which one wins the  ae encounter?

Do you believe I can come close to an excellent warlock consistantly AE? ( Close is within 10K in my book ).

I mean, we're all about taking things in context here, right?

[Gaige]

Bad example since wizards are the best mix of single target and ae target dps.

[SacDaddy420]

Gaige wrote:

Bad example since wizards are the best mix of single target and ae target dps.

Best mix?  You didnt answer my question Gaige.  Locks own ae.

[Gaige]

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

Best mix?  You didnt answer my question Gaige.  Locks own ae.

Man I dunno, Dakkota wins his share of AE parses, I'd say locks own encounter parsing, sure, but multi non linked mobs?

[Carthr]

Boise wrote:

Carthrax wrote:

You are completely clueless Boise.. You can't do a blanket comparison from two different guilds..

Do you honestly think the best ranger WW will beat the best assassin WW if both are in the same group??? Do you think any ranger can come close to (for reference sake) Gaige's number if that ranger was equally buffed??

I think you are clueless.

Now you are just guessing and assuming... Where's the proof...

[Neiloch]

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....

And it doesn't matter how 'skilled' you are this game is ultimately based on numbers determining the absolute highest outcome. The skill is getting as close as possible to that highest possible outcome. So if a class potential restricts them to X amount of maximum DPS output, no amount of will or skill or trying will make that number higher. This isn't the Matrix or some crap where if you 'believe' enough you can bend the rules. With your logic a Defiler could regurlarly put out 60k DPS on just about any fight if they are just 'trying harder'

Also you took the comment out of context to construct your straw man argument.

Does saying "straw man" make you automatically correct these days?  I dont think so. I am also 90% sure this isnt the Matrix.

However I am 100% sure that you, my compadre, are mistaken.  Are we playing the same game?  are defilers dps now? No, they arent.  nice try though.   By my logic, a defiler COULD parse 60K.  If the rest of the raidforce was combined at 6 million. 

  Maybe an awesome defiler could pull it off at 4 million.   who knows.   Try Harder.

Note the underlined part.   Attempt to comprehend it.   If you wanna cry about rangers then whatever.  I dont care about that.  Im not a ranger /wink.

What scenario are you talking about? Please show me in the game as it is now a raid wide parse of 6 million. Not some imaginary scenario thats not technically possible as the game stands. And where is this thinking that if one person is doing high DPS then another automatically does more DPS. Only reasons a raid force doing such insane raidwide DPS would have anything to do with a single persons DPS is because the resulting increase was from everyone in the game getting a huge DPS potential boost. And the raid force wouldn't even be the sole reason for the person increase in DPS. DPS and percentages don't work the way you think it does. Your mixing up cause and effect here.

[SacDaddy420]

Answer my question pertaining to predators, neiloch

[Neiloch]

If all my AE's up, which they are not if AE fights are back to back, a ranger.

But of course I'm not winning the fight by the margin an assassin could beat me on single target. And if there are multiple AE fights one after another I only win the first one because ranger reuse timers are ridiculous, which we have mentioned at length,  and don't have proper access to auto AE for bows.

And stop this lame attempt at 'walking me through it' and just tell me the end of the argument so I can refute your more than likely inccorect argument.

[steelbadger]

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Rathgar is a pretty good mob in my opinion, since he's a straight dps race with very little to interfere with that for anything but fighters.  It is a little disconcerting to see that at my count we're up to :

SKs: 10

Pally: 2

Zerkers: 2

Monks: 1

Bruiser: 0

Guards: 0

Thats uh...pretty imbalanced as far as fighter representation goes.  80% of the fighters on raids are crusaders, 13.3% warriors, 6.7% brawlers.

One Bruiser as well (might have missed it, mispelled: Brusier).  Posted by Uncle, Guild; Conviction.

Gogo Guards!

[BChizzle]

Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....

And it doesn't matter how 'skilled' you are this game is ultimately based on numbers determining the absolute highest outcome. The skill is getting as close as possible to that highest possible outcome. So if a class potential restricts them to X amount of maximum DPS output, no amount of will or skill or trying will make that number higher. This isn't the Matrix or some crap where if you 'believe' enough you can bend the rules. With your logic a Defiler could regurlarly put out 60k DPS on just about any fight if they are just 'trying harder'

Also you took the comment out of context to construct your straw man argument.

Does saying "straw man" make you automatically correct these days?  I dont think so. I am also 90% sure this isnt the Matrix.

However I am 100% sure that you, my compadre, are mistaken.  Are we playing the same game?  are defilers dps now? No, they arent.  nice try though.   By my logic, a defiler COULD parse 60K.  If the rest of the raidforce was combined at 6 million. 

  Maybe an awesome defiler could pull it off at 4 million.   who knows.   Try Harder.

Note the underlined part.   Attempt to comprehend it.   If you wanna cry about rangers then whatever.  I dont care about that.  Im not a ranger /wink.

What scenario are you talking about? Please show me in the game as it is now a raid wide parse of 6 million. Not some imaginary scenario thats not technically possible as the game stands. And where is this thinking that if one person is doing high DPS then another automatically does more DPS. Only reasons a raid force doing such insane raidwide DPS would have anything to do with a single persons DPS is because the resulting increase was from everyone in the game getting a huge DPS potential boost. And the raid force wouldn't even be the sole reason for the person increase in DPS. DPS and percentages don't work the way you think it does. Your mixing up cause and effect here.

His whole % of raid dps argument is completely flawed and a bunch of garbage.  More raid dps doesn't make you parse higher over time in any way whatsoever what it might do is fool the simple minded into thinking they are great on a short fight but that is about the extent of it.  Moreover, I could hop into some crappy pug raid an absolutely dominate their parse, guess what, that is just gear advantage.

[SacDaddy420]

  Tell me , whats my, as a wizard's, magic number?  So I know when I reach it I can just give up and be sad thats all there is.

No wait, Im not like you.   I'm always going to try and do better than I did last time.

Go solo a few epic dummies and then get back to me about how the raid contributes nothing in factoring your personal dps.  Or the number itself.

[Neiloch]

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

  Tell me , whats my, as a wizard's, magic number?  So I know when I reach it I can just give up and be sad thats all there is.

No wait, Im not like you.   I'm always going to try and do better than I did last time.

Go solo a few epic dummies and then get back to me about how the raid contributes nothing in factoring your personal dps.  Or the number itself.

I dunno, i'm not a wizard. I can tell you a whole lot of numbers you will never EVER get past no matter how hard you try though. Lets say, 2 million DPS barring any further changes to the game. But what your saying in these posts, is that you if you try real hard, believe in yourself, you can break the laws of physics and basic number theory by sheer will power and 'stick to-ativeness'

Yes raid buffs do increase DPS, but again these increase are measurable and limited, just like your classes potential maximum DPS.

[Davngr1]

what i hope comes of this thread is the balancing of utillity classes.

  you will find that most raids are still running a chanter and bard in each group.   not really optimal imo when 4 classes have 8 slots to fill and every other class has one maybe two.

edit.

  misunderstood the arguement about raid dps.. nm

[SacDaddy420]

BChizzle wrote:

His whole % of raid dps argument is completely flawed and a bunch of garbage.  More raid dps doesn't make you parse higher over time in any way whatsoever what it might do is fool the simple minded into thinking they are great on a short fight but that is about the extent of it.  Moreover, I could hop into some crappy pug raid an absolutely dominate their parse, guess what, that is just gear advantage.

  I am trying to see the part here where you prove my logic wrong.

You could jump into a terrible pug raid.  Completely dominate their parse.  Of course then youd also completely dominate the percentage.   Heck, lets just say 20% was all you.

Your zonewide for that night aint gonna be above 40K.   I know.  I've done it.

[Neiloch]

Yes you are correct. The percentage is higher but your DPS IS NOT. Which means if he went off percentage ot gauge his performance, like you insist, it would be a really dumb idea. This is why DPS > percentage when it comes to balancing classes damage wise. Otherwise I could trounce a PUG in DPS and be called OP'd.

[SacDaddy420]

Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:

I dunno, i'm not a wizard. I can tell you a whole lot of numbers you will never EVER get past no matter how hard you try though. Lets say, 2 million DPS barring any further changes to the game. But what your saying in these posts, is that you if you try real hard, believe in yourself, you can break the laws of physics and basic number theory by sheer will power and 'stick to-ativeness'

Yes raid buffs do increase DPS, but again these increase are measurable and limited, just like your classes potential maximum DPS.

no, this isnt what Im saying in my posts.  Re-read them.  You are being rediculous.

[SacDaddy420]

Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:

Yes you are correct. The percentage is higher but your DPS IS NOT. Which means if he went off percentage ot gauge his performance, like you insist, it would be a really dumb idea. This is why DPS > percentage when it comes to balancing classes damage wise. Otherwise I could trounce a PUG in DPS and be called OP'd.

Going off percentage is the absolute best way to gauge his performance.  A number tells you nothing but itself.

[Neiloch]

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

However I am 100% sure that you, my compadre, are mistaken.  Are we playing the same game?  are defilers dps now? No, they arent.  nice try though.   By my logic, a defiler COULD parse 60K.  If the rest of the raidforce was combined at 6 million. 

  Maybe an awesome defiler could pull it off at 4 million.   who knows.   Try Harder.

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

  Tell me , whats my, as a wizard's, magic number?  So I know when I reach it I can just give up and be sad thats all there is.

No wait, Im not like you.   I'm always going to try and do better than I did last time.

So your not saying you can do more DPS than sum of the numbers they givee just by trying harder? i'm not contesting you can do better IF you are under the maximum, to be sure. the numbers being utilized are finite. I don't have access to the code but I seriously dount they have a line or two in there with ∞ as its value.

I can tell you what I'm saying is, rangers have added the numbers up, and if an assassin and ranger were some how played to their maximum 100% potential, the assassin would win. Theres 2 threads at the 'other' forums with pages of numbers proving that in practical, executed raids, assassins do much more DPS than rangers. And yes,  hold a bigger percentage of the raid ZW DPS too.

Everyone, everywhere could try harder, and a ranger would still do less than assassins, skill, equipment and raid setups being equal.

Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:

Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:

Yes you are correct. The percentage is higher but your DPS IS NOT. Which means if he went off percentage ot gauge his performance, like you insist, it would be a really dumb idea. This is why DPS > percentage when it comes to balancing classes damage wise. Otherwise I could trounce a PUG in DPS and be called OP'd.

Going off percentage is the absolute best way to gauge his performance.  A number tells you nothing but itself.

If i'm doing 10% of one raids damage, and another person is doing 20% of a complete different raids damage, tell me which one is performing better at doing damage.

[SacDaddy420]

Perhaps there is a secret message in all my posts in this thread, directed at you, neiloch.

WHEN  I lose an encounter parse to our lock,  (And trust me, it happens)  do you think I....

A) Throw in the towel and cry that Fission needs to Double attack 100% of the time and be up every 15 seconds...

or..

B)  T_y _ard__ next time.

? 

I made the missing letters game just for you.  I know you got this.