Transmuting discussion thread

[Andu]

Looks like I may be in the minority but I liked transmuting precisely becasue it was tough to skill up and therefore rewarding when you got there.

Personally, i like that the adornments switch to transmuters as it has always been messy as it stands. However please leave the skilling up curve alone, it doesn't hurt that it is challenging and making it easier really is unnecessary imho.

[Barx]

Anduri wrote:

Looks like I may be in the minority but I liked transmuting precisely becasue it was tough to skill up and therefore rewarding when you got there.

Personally, i like that the adornments switch to transmuters as it has always been messy as it stands. However please leave the skilling up curve alone, it doesn't hurt that it is challenging and making it easier really is unnecessary imho.

There is nothing challenging about it. Crafting is easy to do. As it is now, it is tedious and costly, those two things do not make something challenging.

[Lemtra]

I don't envy Domino for having to take on this mess but I do applaud the effort.  Transmuting for me has been a means to get some use out of items my character could not use.  I don't remember how much time/money I spent leveling my muter but I appreciated the fact that it wasn't easy or cheap.  These are the changes I would make:

1.  Make the Enigma books cover tradeskill archtype's that way an outfitter would make Tailor, Armorer, Weaponsmith adorns.  Scholar - Alchemist, Jeweler, Sage.  Craftsman - Carpenter, Provisioner, Woodworker.  This would make the adornments more accessible for all while at the same time giving tradeskillers who have few if any in-demand adorns recipes more love. 

2.  Keep transmuting and adorning as it is now - one skill.  This keeps the supply and demand balanced.  Giving everyone the chance to break down items without making adornments will just dilute the supply of adornments in my opinion.  Having a bulk transmute option for breaking down many items at once would be very helpful.  Perhaps make a transmute crafting station that opens up a bank type window to drop items into for xmute? 

3.  Maybe allow "No-Trade" items to be commission transmuted?  This would increase the number of usable adorn components a bit. 

Transmuting as it is now is not as useful as tinkering which is why I have many tinkerers and only one xmuter.  I am not usually a forum troller so don't blast me too much. 

[Illuminat]

I say get rid of the "adorning" skill after splitting it from the breaking down because you can eliminate an entire pseudotradeskill that often performs frustrating combines that offer zero skillups and zero experience.

Adorning as a separate tradeskill is superfluous anyway.  If I can make swords, I also know how to embed a jewel into the hilt.  If I can make clothing, I also know how to make gold tassles.  If I can make armor, I also know how to etch lettering into it.  And on and on.

People worry about a glut of components if transmuting were a simple breakdown skill like harvesting.  Well then you could figure a way to use them as or combine them into tradeskill rares.  This is not nonsensical...after all, how does one take a rare plus scrap material, create a mastercrafted item, then be able to transmute it?  The process is surely reversible in a manner of speaking.

[Lysanthir Ahmquissar]

Changes look good to me.

As a new player returning to EQ2 transmuting is a bit of a nightmare. On splitpaw level 1-7 items usually cost an insane amount (80g+ when I was looking earlier) - as I have a full set of characters from 20-80 then level locking is no use obviously.

That left the option of trying to harvest rares  -  along with all the other people....

It also didn't help that I got more than a few quite understandably [Removed for Content] off comments from the non botters as to why a level 80 ranger was farming a Tier 1 starter area. Even then it was appalingly slow.

[GrunEQ]

I may dust off a couple of transmutters I started.

*When you buy the skill to transmute, the cost should include the reactive skills.  No confusion that way. (same with new adorner, I guess)

*Current capped transmutters should be grandfathered for both skills.

*Yea! for making them separate skills.

*I would like to see adornments be kept by different classes with their recipes being more intutive to go with their professions.  Their adorn skills would be raised by their specific recipes like in regular crafting.

*I would like to see specific tier items make specific items and not just "chances". 

Great post btw, and I applaude the changes.

[Eveningsong]

You know, after reading some of the comments so far it seems to me that one of the problems inherent in revamping transmuting is the assumption that transmuting needs to be roughly equivalent to tinkering.

Why?

I'm just sort of thinking aloud here, being at work I haven't had time to mull everything over fully yet, but if every player has the option to be both a tinkerer AND a transmuter, what is wrong with transmuting just being, well transmuting.  I always thought that it made sense that a crafter should be able to take apart something to reuse the parts to make something else (Horizons/Istaria includes this as part of their crafting system, plus as a RL crafter it is definitely something that most crafters do on occasion).  I'm not sure I see a reason for it to get any more complicated than that.  It becomes basically a harvesting type skill that way, which would provide special parts used in making adornments.

As far as the adornments go, I like being able to customize some of the stats on gear with adornments (although I am a cheap slacker and have not bothered to adorn much of my toons' gear lol), but I don't really feel that creating adornments needs to be tied to the transmuting process.  It seems like that is mostly being proposed as a method of keeping transmuting roughly equivalent to tinkering in the usefulness/value of items produced.  My transmuting never went past about 275 so I can't speak for 400 transmuters, but it seems to me that the focus of most people who made it to 400 was to be able to transmute level 80 items, not make adornments.  Therefore, as long as they were still at 400 transmuting, I doubt many would care about losing adornments.

Anyways, more thoughts/comments as I continue to ponder!

[Silerua]

Eveningsong wrote:

My transmuting never went past about 275 so I can't speak for 400 transmuters, but it seems to me that the focus of most people who made it to 400 was to be able to transmute level 80 items, not make adornments.  Therefore, as long as they were still at 400 transmuting, I doubt many would care about losing adornments.

Just wanted to chime in, the guildie that I mentioned in my first post would be a very sad panda if he did not get the 400 transmuting and adorning.  There is a lot of adorning involved in transmuting leveling right now and in his mind, he already did the grind for adorning skills.

Maybe many wouldn't care, but he would.  d:  hehehe

[Eveningsong]

Aye, if both transmuting and adorning go in together, I definitely would expect folks to get both at 400!  But I was mostly musing about taking adorning out of transmuting altogether, and perhaps that is something that most people at 400 would not want to see.

[azraelteir]

DominoDev wrote:

And here are some proposed solutions to each of the above points.  Once again, these are still under consideration, not yet set in stone.

1. Levels of the first recipes will be adjusted down a bit so there are at least a couple yellow or white.
2. We will separate the "transmuting" (breaking stuff down) skill from the "adorning" (making adornments) skill.  The transmuting (breaking stuff down) skill will be granted when you choose to become a transmuter, and will level up to max from breaking stuff down, just like mining rocks levels you up in your mining skill.  Adorning (making adornments) will skill up separately and will only level up by making adornments, just like making armor levels up your armoring.  The breaking-stuff-down skill will level up as fast as any other harvest skill as you break stuff down.  The adorning skill will level up similarly to tinkering speed.  This point is probably the biggest change, but seems to make the most sense as this makes the transmuting system consistent with our other systems, as breaking stuff down has always been intended to be the "harvesting" skill for the transmuter, and making adornments their primary function.  This will also allow people to break stuff down even if they're not interested in levelling up in adornment making, which should make components more available on the broker, since everyone could learn to break down their own attuned old gear.  I would like to know if the skill levels that current Transmuters have will stay the same after the change.  I spent a lot of time and plat (aka time) on leveling to a 400/400 transmuter in the current system, and I would hate to think I will need to level one or the other skills up from zero all over again.  Above 400 all is fair game, but I dont like the idea of having to spend another month at a crafting table or breaking items to get my skills up to where they are currently.
3. Transmuters will get all adornment recipes.  At the same time, we will allow anybody to become a transmuter, even if they are already a tinkerer, so that any class that loses the ability to make adornments will be able to get it again if they wish.  Nobody will therefore permanently lose the ability to make adornments.  The adornment recipes will be all new ones, the old ones will be removed entirely as we don’t want to support two separate systems.
4. The frustration in leveling transmuting at present mainly arises from the difficulty in obtaining components.  Adorning skill levels up at the same speed as tinkering, and if we correctly address the lack of availability of components, it should be equivalent, and much less frustrating.  However, we could tweak this curve a little for both if necessary - probably a subject for discussion during beta.  For this, I wonder if it wouldnt be worth while considering making the Treasured adornments where they only require a very small and limited number of transmuted items and the rest are commom harvested items.  Each tier would require less common items and more transmuted items, IE:  Treasured: 2 Fragments, 1 powder, 3 common loams, & fuel.  Legendary: 2 fragments, 2 powders, 1 Infusion, common loam and Fuel.  Fabled... well you get the idea, less need for the common harvesables on the higher tier items, thus making the lower tier items more ideal and easier for crafting to level. (just my 2c).
5. The number of items required will be fixed across all levels.  So if a level 5 item might require 3 fragments, 2 powders, and 1 infusion, the equivalent level 85 item will also require 3 fragments, 2 powders, and 1 infusion.
6. We will address the shortage of items in a number of ways.  See #5 - reducing the numbers of items required so that you don’t need as many.  And see #2 - more people able to transmute will also reduce the cost of the components on the broker, and make more items available as people not interested in making adornments can still break down their old gear.  We will also make more transmutable items available if necessary, one option we are considering is to make some of the items that are discovered from scrying stones transmutable.
7. We will add recipes to convert a number of lower rarity items (e.g. fragments) into fewer higher rarity items of the same level (e.g. powders).  Note: this will only work within a level range, you will not be able to convert lower level items to higher level items.  I like this, but this should be approached carefully, being able to manufacturer Manas too easily will make Fabled Adornments very common, there should still be some difficulty in obtaining these items.  Also being able to break down items to make the lower items would be nice, but not at a loss, maybe a slight gain (if it takes 3 fragments to make 1 powder, make it so one powder can make 2 fragments in reverse... again just a thought).
8. This will be addressed separately with a complete revision of which adornments are available with which stats.  This is a different discussion; more on this at a later date.

If you've read this far, you probably have some opinions already, so please take your time to think them through and post any feedback (positive or negative) in this thread.  If you don't like the ideas, it would be helpful if you can explain why and what a better solution would be, of course! 

Thanks for your feedback! 

Why not a little GREEN to make things different... all in all tho, I have to say I like the idea!

[Barx]

azraelteir wrote:

DominoDev wrote:

And here are some proposed solutions to each of the above points.  Once again, these are still under consideration, not yet set in stone.

1. Levels of the first recipes will be adjusted down a bit so there are at least a couple yellow or white.
2. We will separate the "transmuting" (breaking stuff down) skill from the "adorning" (making adornments) skill.  The transmuting (breaking stuff down) skill will be granted when you choose to become a transmuter, and will level up to max from breaking stuff down, just like mining rocks levels you up in your mining skill.  Adorning (making adornments) will skill up separately and will only level up by making adornments, just like making armor levels up your armoring.  The breaking-stuff-down skill will level up as fast as any other harvest skill as you break stuff down.  The adorning skill will level up similarly to tinkering speed.  This point is probably the biggest change, but seems to make the most sense as this makes the transmuting system consistent with our other systems, as breaking stuff down has always been intended to be the "harvesting" skill for the transmuter, and making adornments their primary function.  This will also allow people to break stuff down even if they're not interested in levelling up in adornment making, which should make components more available on the broker, since everyone could learn to break down their own attuned old gear.  I would like to know if the skill levels that current Transmuters have will stay the same after the change.  I spent a lot of time and plat (aka time) on leveling to a 400/400 transmuter in the current system, and I would hate to think I will need to level one or the other skills up from zero all over again.  Above 400 all is fair game, but I dont like the idea of having to spend another month at a crafting table or breaking items to get my skills up to where they are currently.
3. Transmuters will get all adornment recipes.  At the same time, we will allow anybody to become a transmuter, even if they are already a tinkerer, so that any class that loses the ability to make adornments will be able to get it again if they wish.  Nobody will therefore permanently lose the ability to make adornments.  The adornment recipes will be all new ones, the old ones will be removed entirely as we don’t want to support two separate systems.
4. The frustration in leveling transmuting at present mainly arises from the difficulty in obtaining components.  Adorning skill levels up at the same speed as tinkering, and if we correctly address the lack of availability of components, it should be equivalent, and much less frustrating.  However, we could tweak this curve a little for both if necessary - probably a subject for discussion during beta.  For this, I wonder if it wouldnt be worth while considering making the Treasured adornments where they only require a very small and limited number of transmuted items and the rest are commom harvested items.  Each tier would require less common items and more transmuted items, IE:  Treasured: 2 Fragments, 1 powder, 3 common loams, & fuel.  Legendary: 2 fragments, 2 powders, 1 Infusion, common loam and Fuel.  Fabled... well you get the idea, less need for the common harvesables on the higher tier items, thus making the lower tier items more ideal and easier for crafting to level. (just my 2c).
5. The number of items required will be fixed across all levels.  So if a level 5 item might require 3 fragments, 2 powders, and 1 infusion, the equivalent level 85 item will also require 3 fragments, 2 powders, and 1 infusion.
6. We will address the shortage of items in a number of ways.  See #5 - reducing the numbers of items required so that you don’t need as many.  And see #2 - more people able to transmute will also reduce the cost of the components on the broker, and make more items available as people not interested in making adornments can still break down their old gear.  We will also make more transmutable items available if necessary, one option we are considering is to make some of the items that are discovered from scrying stones transmutable.
7. We will add recipes to convert a number of lower rarity items (e.g. fragments) into fewer higher rarity items of the same level (e.g. powders).  Note: this will only work within a level range, you will not be able to convert lower level items to higher level items.  I like this, but this should be approached carefully, being able to manufacturer Manas too easily will make Fabled Adornments very common, there should still be some difficulty in obtaining these items.  Also being able to break down items to make the lower items would be nice, but not at a loss, maybe a slight gain (if it takes 3 fragments to make 1 powder, make it so one powder can make 2 fragments in reverse... again just a thought).
8. This will be addressed separately with a complete revision of which adornments are available with which stats.  This is a different discussion; more on this at a later date.

If you've read this far, you probably have some opinions already, so please take your time to think them through and post any feedback (positive or negative) in this thread.  If you don't like the ideas, it would be helpful if you can explain why and what a better solution would be, of course! 

Thanks for your feedback! 

Why not a little GREEN to make things different... all in all tho, I have to say I like the idea!

That's an interesting Green

Re: making up to manas... the way I interpret it was fragments -> powders. And *maybe* at most powders - > infusions. I certianly hope there is no infusions -> mana.

[azraelteir]

Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:

azraelteir wrote:

DominoDev wrote:

And here are some proposed solutions to each of the above points.  Once again, these are still under consideration, not yet set in stone.

1. Levels of the first recipes will be adjusted down a bit so there are at least a couple yellow or white.
2. We will separate the "transmuting" (breaking stuff down) skill from the "adorning" (making adornments) skill.  The transmuting (breaking stuff down) skill will be granted when you choose to become a transmuter, and will level up to max from breaking stuff down, just like mining rocks levels you up in your mining skill.  Adorning (making adornments) will skill up separately and will only level up by making adornments, just like making armor levels up your armoring.  The breaking-stuff-down skill will level up as fast as any other harvest skill as you break stuff down.  The adorning skill will level up similarly to tinkering speed.  This point is probably the biggest change, but seems to make the most sense as this makes the transmuting system consistent with our other systems, as breaking stuff down has always been intended to be the "harvesting" skill for the transmuter, and making adornments their primary function.  This will also allow people to break stuff down even if they're not interested in levelling up in adornment making, which should make components more available on the broker, since everyone could learn to break down their own attuned old gear.  I would like to know if the skill levels that current Transmuters have will stay the same after the change.  I spent a lot of time and plat (aka time) on leveling to a 400/400 transmuter in the current system, and I would hate to think I will need to level one or the other skills up from zero all over again.  Above 400 all is fair game, but I dont like the idea of having to spend another month at a crafting table or breaking items to get my skills up to where they are currently.
3. Transmuters will get all adornment recipes.  At the same time, we will allow anybody to become a transmuter, even if they are already a tinkerer, so that any class that loses the ability to make adornments will be able to get it again if they wish.  Nobody will therefore permanently lose the ability to make adornments.  The adornment recipes will be all new ones, the old ones will be removed entirely as we don’t want to support two separate systems.
4. The frustration in leveling transmuting at present mainly arises from the difficulty in obtaining components.  Adorning skill levels up at the same speed as tinkering, and if we correctly address the lack of availability of components, it should be equivalent, and much less frustrating.  However, we could tweak this curve a little for both if necessary - probably a subject for discussion during beta.  For this, I wonder if it wouldnt be worth while considering making the Treasured adornments where they only require a very small and limited number of transmuted items and the rest are commom harvested items.  Each tier would require less common items and more transmuted items, IE:  Treasured: 2 Fragments, 1 powder, 3 common loams, & fuel.  Legendary: 2 fragments, 2 powders, 1 Infusion, common loam and Fuel.  Fabled... well you get the idea, less need for the common harvesables on the higher tier items, thus making the lower tier items more ideal and easier for crafting to level. (just my 2c).
5. The number of items required will be fixed across all levels.  So if a level 5 item might require 3 fragments, 2 powders, and 1 infusion, the equivalent level 85 item will also require 3 fragments, 2 powders, and 1 infusion.
6. We will address the shortage of items in a number of ways.  See #5 - reducing the numbers of items required so that you don’t need as many.  And see #2 - more people able to transmute will also reduce the cost of the components on the broker, and make more items available as people not interested in making adornments can still break down their old gear.  We will also make more transmutable items available if necessary, one option we are considering is to make some of the items that are discovered from scrying stones transmutable.
7. We will add recipes to convert a number of lower rarity items (e.g. fragments) into fewer higher rarity items of the same level (e.g. powders).  Note: this will only work within a level range, you will not be able to convert lower level items to higher level items.  I like this, but this should be approached carefully, being able to manufacturer Manas too easily will make Fabled Adornments very common, there should still be some difficulty in obtaining these items.  Also being able to break down items to make the lower items would be nice, but not at a loss, maybe a slight gain (if it takes 3 fragments to make 1 powder, make it so one powder can make 2 fragments in reverse... again just a thought).
8. This will be addressed separately with a complete revision of which adornments are available with which stats.  This is a different discussion; more on this at a later date.

If you've read this far, you probably have some opinions already, so please take your time to think them through and post any feedback (positive or negative) in this thread.  If you don't like the ideas, it would be helpful if you can explain why and what a better solution would be, of course! 

Thanks for your feedback! 

Why not a little GREEN to make things different... all in all tho, I have to say I like the idea!

That's an interesting Green

Re: making up to manas... the way I interpret it was fragments -> powders. And *maybe* at most powders - > infusions. I certianly hope there is no infusions -> mana.

Like that?  lol :p

Personally I agree, Manas should stay the same as they are now, only achievable by breaking down Fabled loot items, however if the change happens to keep it all fair (playing devils advocate, I cant help it), then it should still require a lot of Infusions or a large number of more than just Infusions (maybe even a common rare or powders as well) to make the Mana, this way they are still the high end rare component.

[Qandor]

Leveling transmuting under the old system was both extremely costly and extremely time consuming. Current maxed transmuters must be given both skills at max if this new system is to be institutued. It would be the ultimate kick in the teeth to have to raise adorning skill all over again. We had to expend great effort MAKING ADORNMENTS to get to 400 transmuting already.

[KerowynnKaotic]

DominoDev wrote:

*snipped*

If you've read this far, you probably have some opinions already, so please take your time to think them through and post any feedback (positive or negative) in this thread.  If you don't like the ideas, it would be helpful if you can explain why and what a better solution would be, of course! 

Thanks for your feedback! 

*ponders*  ..

So, if I follow you ... you are planning to make Transmuting have (2) Skills .. (1) for pure 'Mutation, that would be leveled up purely by 'smooshing' things and (2) for Adorn Making, that is leveled up by actually Crafting items.  ..

Truthfully, I like that idea.  While it's a bit more work for us as players than if there were a Commission System for 'Smooshing' .. it still gives us the flexibility to choose to either work on that harder skill (Adorns) on all of our Characters or to skip it and only do the 'Muting skill'.    Personally, I am not inclined to do more than the Mutation skill on any but my Main, who is already a Max Transmuter.

Which, brings up the question ... Will we have to redo all the that work to bring up our Adorn Making skill to our Mutation skill when this goes Live?   I really, really don't want to ..

Though, I am very glad on your goal of fixing the curve of the amount of products used per Tier, my immediate thought is that this will have some negative impact the T1 Crafting aspect for the Transmuting skill increases. 

Comments:

• The first recipes you get are red difficulty, which can be scary to beginner transmuters.

See .. I always thought this was more along the lines of a Warning .. seemed appropriate .. but .. *shrug* whatever.

• We will address the shortage of items in a number of ways.  See #5 - reducing the numbers of items required so that you don’t need as many.  And see #2 - more people able to transmute will also reduce the cost of the components on the broker, and make more items available as people not interested in making adornments can still break down their old gear.  We will also make more transmutable items available if necessary, one option we are considering is to make some of the items that are discovered from scrying stones transmutable.

uh .. I'm pretty sure I have smooshed quite a few of the scrying stone rewards.  I think there were a few that didn't work and obviously the 'cash loot' items weren't.  So, maybe changing the 'cash loot' items to be a Treasured Item that can be smooshed or vender would be nice.  But, an even nicer thing would be to go back through all the various Live Event rewards/purchases.  Such as that Icy Keep Armor/Weapons/Jewelry and the TSO & Void Opening Event Armor & Weapons.   All those things are flagged as NON-Transmutables.  

As Discussions go .. there is really not much for me to debate, already you have outlined a better system than what we currently have and it's just in outline form.   I look forward to your synopsis on the actual Adorns themselves.

[Eveningsong]

Oh yes, commissioned smooshing!  That's another aspect I'd love to see .  Just because I could level transmuting up on every toon doesn't mean I really want to...

And I have to say, if a 400 transmuter doesn't get 400/400 (which is the only way I can see it being, personally), it seems to me that it should be 400 in adorning not transmuting, because you MUST make adornments to level, not transmute items.   At worst, I'd think 100 transmuting/400 adorning...

[KerowynnKaotic]

azraelteir wrote:

Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:

*snipped*

Re: making up to manas... the way I interpret it was fragments -> powders. And *maybe* at most powders - > infusions. I certianly hope there is no infusions -> mana.

Like that?  lol :p

Personally I agree, Manas should stay the same as they are now, only achievable by breaking down Fabled loot items, however if the change happens to keep it all fair (playing devils advocate, I cant help it), then it should still require a lot of Infusions or a large number of more than just Infusions (maybe even a common rare or powders as well) to make the Mana, this way they are still the high end rare component.

To comment directly on this ... I think the changing up of ingredients would be fine, even up to Mana, if there were a decent amount of Infusions required.  I'd go so far as saying that (20) infusions per (1) Mana would be more than adequate as a Change over as well as a detriment to those who would think to circumvent the system of needing to smoosh Fabled items to get Manas. 

[Dethdlr]

Like most maxed out transmuters have posted here already, I agree that if this change goes live, please, please, please give the current maxed out transmuters max skill in both breaking down and making adornments.  It was quite a painful process to get here the first time.  Please don't make me do it again.

I like giving all the adornment recipies to the transmuters and taking them away from the other crafters.  I'm sure there are some non-transmuting crafters that don't like this idea.  They can make adornments now and don't want that ability taken away.  But what did the other crafters do to be able to make the adornments?  They got the books.  If they were a max level Jeweler when transmuting came out, ALL they had to do was get the recipe books and they could make the adornments.  That's it.  Take this ability away and they are STILL a max level Jeweler.

The transmuters worked to be able to break down the components and to be able to make the adornments.  They couldn't progress past skill 100 without making adornments.  They worked for the ability to make adornments. 

Since the ability to be a transmuter is going to be available to everyone, ANY crafter that used to be able to make adornments can level themselves up as an adornment maker/transmuter if they want to get that ability back.  Then they'll be able to not only make the adornments for their class but for ALL classes, which is fair because then, they've done the work as well.

I like these changes.  And I'm guessing that most that are advocating getting rid of the adornment making part of transmuting and keeping it scattered among the other tradeskill classes, are NOT transmuters.

[Tremis2]

What I'd like to know is :

1) Will current transmuters be able to be tinkerer as well, it's not said in the OP

2) What will happen to ours skills ? Reset all our work ? and so forget all the money we have paid to rise our skills and the time spent crafting over and over useless adornements with no market? Or Put all our point in only one of the new skills ?

Rethinking the sytem could be a good point but the past speak against your "good idea" : I'm an armorer and after DOF and a "good idea" I didn't sell any more armor. Now I can sell adorment but I wonder if you "good idea" will ruin, again, the way I can earn money without making an alt to farm ?

I never understand why the adornement made by adorners were so useless, only the fabled one has a market (I sell 1 legendary adornements from adorn against 20 from armorers...), so I like the idea to put at last adornement recipe to adorners.

I wonder (I know it's not the current subjet) what I will be able to sell as an armorer after this change... I think you have to think hard to make all crafting profession desirable again.

[Sightless]

CoLD MeTaL wrote:

I do NOT think the skill should be split for 'breaking down' and making adorns, it's ALL transmuting.

I think skill up chances need to be available from 'breaking down' items to the max, not stop at 100.  Level 1 items should always have a 'chance' at skill up.  making items maintains it's current ability. 

I do think a transmuter should be able to make 'any adorn' (since they specialize in these components), but leave the other ts classes with what they currently have.  (lowering the number of people that can make adorns would be bad, when it is already hard to find people willing)

I want a window where I can place 10 items and xmute them at once, with an option for confirm. (which I will turn off, but some may want)  Or make the cast time .01 second, because it stinks doing a lot at once when u need a lot to level.  Let me break down a 'rare' straight to a powder, better a stack of 10 or 200 at a time (ok here i know I am dreaming but you asked).

We do need something besides hobo.net to let us not who makes what adorn for what slot.  (To the hobo.net person "THANK YOU!")

Fabled should be a guaranteed mana.  Legendary should be a guaranteed infusion 'or' infusion(75) and powder (25).  Anything made from a rare AND the rare itself should yield a powder, and treasured gets fragments (75) or powders(25).

 I like the way you think.  You have said everything I was going too.

[Sightless]

Qandor wrote:

Leveling transmuting under the old system was both extremely costly and extremely time consuming. Current maxed transmuters must be given both skills at max if this new system is to be institutued. It would be the ultimate kick in the teeth to have to raise adorning skill all over again. We had to expend great effort MAKING ADORNMENTS to get to 400 transmuting already.

Having a 400/400 transmuter I agree that it would be nice to have the skills at max up to that point and then after that make it the same for all.  I would really dislike starting over after the amount of time spent on breaking down and making combines both and then amount of coin i burned through.

[Kitsune]

When I first heard there would be Transmuters in the game and they could break down items, I thought - great! I will get that Rare from the armor I just outgrew and some other stuff too. But it wasn't that at all. It was other stuff entirely. I don't see the logic in breaking down a spell and getting shards of turquoise and pwders n stuff. If you are doing an overhaul, why not make it logical? That you get some of the components you used back, but maybe a magical version of them..

That aside, I stopped transmuting at just over 100 points because as has been said by various people, it is a money sink. I got to 100+ on my own using books and stuff I stashed as I leveled my Fae. I stopped because unless I had a toon at the right level for that loot, I couldn't get it myself. And then there was no halting your XP, if I remember, so you and or you alts outleveled what you needed.

That isn't challenging as has been said, it is again the provenance of those with the money to sink into the skill.

Yes, I welcome splitting the 2 parts of Transmuting - making adorns is not Transmuting. I would also welcome a better way for leveling the actual muting skill - yes, easier, not because I am not prepared to put time into it, but because as a raw harvesting skill, it shouldn't depend on throwing vast amounts of money at it - no one pays to harvest nodes. If we did, how many Tradeskillers would we have?

zunder the current system, because I could only skill-up by making stuff, another thing that stalled me was not being able to get certain raws without buying up gear got on raids when I don't raid as I'm part of a small clan. Please don't say Why should everything be available to you if you don't go raiding ... that's not the point. It's a craft, not a measure of your adventuring ability. It shouldn't be dependant on raiding except perhaps for items the equivalent of Master books in other crafts. You should still be able to level up effectively at the regular rate say a Carpenter does, or a Provisioner, who has no rares.

Just my 2 cents.

I also like the ideas of getting an expected return for a specific item.

[Bookbunny]

Aurelis wrote:

YAY!  This is exciting for me because I love maxing skills, so splitting it up means more skills to play with!

This all looks very awesome so far from what I can tell, though I am a tinkerer, not a transmuter, so a muter will probably have better feedback than me.  However, my guild's transmuter is curious on what will happen to him?  I didn't see this in the post but if you already addressed this, sorry!  He is a 400 'muter, so he has gone through the drudge of transmuting and then adorning.  Will he have to grind for adorning skill ups all over again?  Or will his transmuting and adorning skills already be maxed?

Thanks a bunch!!  Yay!

Please Please address the concern in this post.  Having already done "the grind" in the current system (which has been decided to be broken and in need of a change) I do not want to have to grind again to max out a new skill.  I hope 400 transmuters will be given 400 adorning as well.

[Zehl_Ice-Fire]

I think the change is good. Will those at 400 transmuting at xpansion launch have to level up both skills once they split? Please say no... even with the change thats triple work for those who went through it long ago.

[Ottan]

The only change I *need* to see in transmuting is the elimination of the sound effect that accompanies breaking down an item.  It's one of the things that drives me crazy (-ier than I already am), sitting at the bank or broker and hearing that over and over.

[Illuminat]

Decimatr@Kithicor wrote:

I like these changes.  And I'm guessing that most that are advocating getting rid of the adornment making part of transmuting and keeping it scattered among the other tradeskill classes, are NOT transmuters.

You're guessing wrong.  I'm just seeing the bigger picture.

[Deson]

Aleraku@Blackburrow wrote:

DominoDev wrote:

We will separate the "transmuting" (breaking stuff down) skill from the "adorning" (making adornments) skill.  The transmuting (breaking stuff down) skill will be granted when you choose to become a transmuter, and will level up to max from breaking stuff down, just like mining rocks levels you up in your mining skill.  Adorning (making adornments) will skill up separately and will only level up by making adornments, just like making armor levels up your armoring.  The breaking-stuff-down skill will level up as fast as any other harvest skill as you break stuff down.  The adorning skill will level up similarly to tinkering speed.  This point is probably the biggest change, but seems to make the most sense as this makes the transmuting system consistent with our other systems, as breaking stuff down has always been intended to be the "harvesting" skill for the transmuter, and making adornments their primary function.  This will also allow people to break stuff down even if they're not interested in levelling up in adornment making, which should make components more available on the broker, since everyone could learn to break down their own attuned old gear.

This is the money shot right here, making transmuting as simple a skill as harvesting, from 1 all the way to 400/450. I would not bother having a separate adorning skill and it seems contrived to preserve it. You would save yourself much time and effort by delegating all adornment recipes to the existing tradeskill subclasses, as is being mostly done right now.

What's mostly done right now is contrivance  as well. Beghn did it to make sure everyone benefitted from the system but it makes adding adornments a nightmare in market distribution and customer education. Placing them all under one skill reduces the incentives for hairspillting and redundancy that currently plague the system.

Aleraku@Blackburrow wrote:

I say get rid of the "adorning" skill after splitting it from the breaking down because you can eliminate an entire pseudotradeskill that often performs frustrating combines that offer zero skillups and zero experience.

Adorning as a separate tradeskill is superfluous anyway.  If I can make swords, I also know how to embed a jewel into the hilt.  If I can make clothing, I also know how to make gold tassles.  If I can make armor, I also know how to etch lettering into it.  And on and on.

People worry about a glut of components if transmuting were a simple breakdown skill like harvesting.  Well then you could figure a way to use them as or combine them into tradeskill rares.  This is not nonsensical...after all, how does one take a rare plus scrap material, create a mastercrafted item, then be able to transmute it?  The process is surely reversible in a manner of speaking.

Adorning as a separate tradeskill is not the same as adorning by adding the item. One is the creation of the jewel, the other is the actual use of it. Adorners can be seen as master gem cutters, tradesmen who specialize in the shaping of the gem but not necessarily its final use.  Adorning as a spearate skill allows the harvesting of transmuting to be available to all while not burdening those who don't want a tradeskill with the frustration of creation--just like regular tradeskills now.

[Lleren]

Aleraku@Blackburrow wrote:

Decimatr@Kithicor wrote:

I like these changes.  And I'm guessing that most that are advocating getting rid of the adornment making part of transmuting and keeping it scattered among the other tradeskill classes, are NOT transmuters.

You're guessing wrong.  I'm just seeing the bigger picture.

I advocate keeping adorment making split up, and I am a transmuter.

Adornments are currently a huge market.  The changes listed will greatly increase the numbers of tranmuters out there.  I still would much prefer to make it as difficult as possible for one person on my server to have that market on near lockdown. 

I will likely raise transmuting on three other characters once the change goes live, It is unlikely that I will raise the adornment making side of it on any character other then the one that is already a max skill transmuter.  Two of those characters are currently high skill tinkerer's.

[TaleraRis]

I like your ideas a lot. I don't really have a lot to add myself. The one lone thing I would have been concerned about (and have commented on in the past) would have been giving transmuters both all adornments and all possibility of obtaining the components. Under the current system, this would result in a raw material and product monopoly.

But splitting the skills into a harvesting-esque side and the producing side is a great solution to the problem. As well as making the harvesting side's skilling up independent of the producing side's skilling up. It gives raw materials the chance of being more readily available and I think it will work to keep costs reasonable on both materials and the final product.

I would agree that transmuting (and tinkering) reactives should be given automaticallly when the skill is gained, just as they are with the primary tradeskills now.

And I think if normal harvesting raws were able to be incorporated into recipes, that would level the playing field even more among both the two secondary tradeskills and how the secondary tradeskills relate to the primary tradeskills.

My one addition is perhaps adornments could be broken back down in a sort of "salvaging" manner. The adornment crafter would not receive all materials back, of course, but just a fraction of what was used to craft the adornment. This also would keep costs at a reasonable rate.

Of course, if you coupled this with a serum that would allow adornments to be removed safely without destroying them, then costs could be kept very reasonable indeed.

[brammator]

I have a question:

Will new Transmuting and Adorning be equal secondary professions, like Tinkering/Transmutiong now?  How many secondary profs one can learn?  Can I be 80 Artisan/400 Tinker/400 Muter/400 Adorner?  If yes, do you plan more secondaries?

Speaking less oftopically, all changes seems fine, unless you plan to reset my hard-plat-earned skill (which is 375) to zero.  And yeah, muting one ingredients to another seems quite interesting, especially if it will work both ways.

[Dethdlr]

Llyren@Kithicor wrote:

Aleraku@Blackburrow wrote:

Decimatr@Kithicor wrote:

I like these changes.  And I'm guessing that most that are advocating getting rid of the adornment making part of transmuting and keeping it scattered among the other tradeskill classes, are NOT transmuters.

You're guessing wrong.  I'm just seeing the bigger picture.

I advocate keeping adorment making split up, and I am a transmuter.

Adornments are currently a huge market.  The changes listed will greatly increase the numbers of tranmuters out there.  I still would much prefer to make it as difficult as possible for one person on my server to have that market on near lockdown. 

I will likely raise transmuting on three other characters once the change goes live, It is unlikely that I will raise the adornment making side of it on any character other then the one that is already a max skill transmuter.  Two of those characters are currently high skill tinkerer's.

I should have been more specific.  Let me revise my statement above:  And I'm guessing that most that are advocating getting rid of the adornment making part of transmuting and keeping it scattered among the other tradeskill classes, are NOT transmuters, OR have several tradeskill classes that would loose money if it were to happen.

Again, your multiple tradeskill classes did basically NOTHING to be able to do anything related to transmuting or adorning.  You had a free ride for a long time based on the current system but didn't do anything to work for it on your other crafters.  The sky isn't going to fall just because the adornment making part gets taken away.  Your other crafters are still OTHER CRAFTERS.

If you think your other crafter's only use is for making adornments, that's a different issue related to that tradeskill class.  Now, I'll admit, it would be pretty messed up if someone leveled up a crafter ONLY because of the adornments they could make.  I would imagine however that this is the extreme minority (but will probably be the vocal majority on the forums since the minority won't bother posting).  Even if that were the case, they would STILL be whatever tradeskill class they leveled up.  

I don't mind working for what I get.  I worked for my transmuting skill.  I got the ability to break down components and make adornments for some weapons.  The hard part wasn't breaking down the items up to level 100.  The hard part was breaking down enough materials and crafting enough items to make it from 100 to 400.  Having done that work, I like the idea of finally being rewarded for it by getting the ability to make all the adornments.  That's how I thought it should have been to start with.  As it stands now, transmuters can make SOME of the adornments for weapons.

Now, of course, those with multiple crafters who currently make adornments are going to feel slighted because currently they can make several classes worth of adornments and make some decent money.  But again, those other crafting classes didn't DO anything but get the books to be able to make the adornments.  We're talking about taking away something that was never earned in the first place.  Want the ability back?  Build up your adornment making skill like the current transmuters already have.

But that's just the opinions of an 80 Weaponsmith/400 Skill Transmuter.