Is SOE painting themselves into a corner? - Page 2

krrr · 04-07-2009, 01:04 PM

Tibis_Heartseeker wrote:

In EQ1, people thought that equipment was getting 'too powerful' when they saw top-end Velious gear, and top-end Luclin gear, and top-end Planes of Power gear.
If the next expansion expands the level cap up to 90, then I'm sure they'll find room for some bigger numbers and maybe even add interesting new effects for old maxed-out numbers (eg, at 81+, double attack chances over 100% might allow for a triple attack, and so on).

Massive nerf to everything and everyone is more likely scenario (done through "gear scaling")

Gilasil · 04-07-2009, 02:30 PM

I can see it now.

After two years of blood, sweat and tears I finally get my mythical.

The next day the new expansion is released.

Within a week I'm able to buy a mastercrafted weapon off the broker which is better then that mythical.

therodge · 04-07-2009, 05:44 PM

Gilasil wrote:

I can see it now.
After two years of blood, sweat and tears I finally get my mythical.
The next day the new expansion is released.
Within a week I'm able to buy a mastercrafted weapon off the broker which is better then that mythical.

this is just going by genral stat progression, a mastercrafted 1 hander will be sitting at a rateing of 100 ish while a good teir 9 legendary 1hander will probobly be sitting at the 120-130 rating range. it should be noted, most mythicals wont be completly shelved till probobly late teir 9 raiding (if at all) i mean just look the healer item from claymore was used forever, and the soulfire reward was used by raid tanks until they got their myth. really what makes mythicals mythical are their effects and to much lesser extent their acual stats

Yimway · 04-07-2009, 05:53 PM

therodge wrote:

Gilasil wrote:
I can see it now.
After two years of blood, sweat and tears I finally get my mythical.
The next day the new expansion is released.
Within a week I'm able to buy a mastercrafted weapon off the broker which is better then that mythical.
this is just going by genral stat progression, a mastercrafted 1 hander will be sitting at a rateing of 100 ish while a good teir 9 legendary 1hander will probobly be sitting at the 120-130 rating range. it should be noted, most mythicals wont be completly shelved till probobly late teir 9 raiding (if at all) i mean just look the healer item from claymore was used forever, and the soulfire reward was used by raid tanks until they got their myth. really what makes mythicals mythical are their effects and to much lesser extent their acual stats

Um, Mythical 2.0?

It's reasonable to believe at some point in T9 you'll actually imbue/augment/upgrade your mythical in some manner.

therodge · 04-07-2009, 06:05 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

therodge wrote:
Gilasil wrote:
I can see it now.
After two years of blood, sweat and tears I finally get my mythical.
The next day the new expansion is released.
Within a week I'm able to buy a mastercrafted weapon off the broker which is better then that mythical.
this is just going by genral stat progression, a mastercrafted 1 hander will be sitting at a rateing of 100 ish while a good teir 9 legendary 1hander will probobly be sitting at the 120-130 rating range. it should be noted, most mythicals wont be completly shelved till probobly late teir 9 raiding (if at all) i mean just look the healer item from claymore was used forever, and the soulfire reward was used by raid tanks until they got their myth. really what makes mythicals mythical are their effects and to much lesser extent their acual stats
Um, Mythical 2.0?
It's reasonable to believe at some point in T9 you'll actually imbue/augment/upgrade your mythical in some manner.

i agree, but you prorobly arnt going to upgrade a myth until high end raid mob 01 so my point remains valid

ke'la · 04-07-2009, 06:24 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

therodge wrote:
Gilasil wrote:
I can see it now.
After two years of blood, sweat and tears I finally get my mythical.
The next day the new expansion is released.
Within a week I'm able to buy a mastercrafted weapon off the broker which is better then that mythical.
this is just going by genral stat progression, a mastercrafted 1 hander will be sitting at a rateing of 100 ish while a good teir 9 legendary 1hander will probobly be sitting at the 120-130 rating range. it should be noted, most mythicals wont be completly shelved till probobly late teir 9 raiding (if at all) i mean just look the healer item from claymore was used forever, and the soulfire reward was used by raid tanks until they got their myth. really what makes mythicals mythical are their effects and to much lesser extent their acual stats
Um, Mythical 2.0?
It's reasonable to believe at some point in T9 you'll actually imbue/augment/upgrade your mythical in some manner.

Consitering Fyrelight more or less has stated that the Epic is supposed to be the end all be all weopon... I would think it only makes sence for it to be buffed via some new Epic level quests, instead of just getting a replacement.

My prefured way to progress it:

Fabled v1 required to start Fabled v.2 quest

Fabled v2 required to start Mythical v.2 quest

Mythical v1 + Mythical v2 = Mythical v2.5(kinda like how the EBBC worked only neither Epic 1 or 2 disapears for apperance)

Kordran · 04-07-2009, 06:29 PM

therodge wrote:

i agree, but you prorobly arnt going to upgrade a myth until high end raid mob 01 so my point remains valid

Then again, that raid content won't be balanced for having your v2 mythical. It's kind of like VP vs. TSO x4s. VP isn't balanced for players having their mythicals, naturally, since you need to be able to raid VP in order to get the mythical updates (edit: and of course, VP existed before mythicals did). But, TSO is balanced with the idea that players will have their mythicals. Presuming they continue this kind of raid progression, there will be a series of quests that end in raids that will require you have your v1 mythical; completing that, and getting your upgraded v2 mythical, will become a pre-requisite for progressing into the T9 content beyond that point.

If they're smart, they'd also provide a heroic path where people could upgrade their v1 fabled to a v2 fabled, to give the non-raiders a progression path for their weapon.

Armawk · 04-07-2009, 06:30 PM

I would predict that the mythical (and even the fabled) will remain better than any non fabled weapon, and in the case of the mythical better than any weapon except the upgraded mythical mentioned above and some exotic raid drops, which will still not be better than the upgraded mythical which will be the best weapon in the game.

The creation of the epic has created a structure soe have to stick to if they arent to look stupid. Essentially the epic in the relevant form has to be the best weapon you can have at whatever progression point you are at.

This however is not a stifler of creativity but a constraint which forces creativity. Some kind of big quest/raid sequence to upgrade mythicals is hardly going to be a bad thing.

Faenril · 04-08-2009, 05:38 AM

Tibis@Unrest wrote:

In EQ1, people thought that equipment was getting 'too powerful' when they saw top-end Velious gear, and top-end Luclin gear, and top-end Planes of Power gear.
If the next expansion expands the level cap up to 90, then I'm sure they'll find room for some bigger numbers and maybe even add interesting new effects for old maxed-out numbers (eg, at 81+, double attack chances over 100% might allow for a triple attack, and so on).

There is always room for progression as you can invent new stats as needed to expand progression:

ppl capped primary stats ? ok let's introduce crits and DA

ppl capped crits ? ok let's put more DA gear / CA damage / haste gear

ppl capped crits and DA and CA damage ? ok let's put base damage gear, crit bonus and critical mitigation

ppl capped base damage and critical mitigation ? ok let's make a new xpac with new gear and change the new hot stat (double spell attack, flurry, double CA ? +AOE attack ?)

Lethe5683 · 04-08-2009, 09:35 AM

Faenril@Nagafen wrote:

Tibis@Unrest wrote:
In EQ1, people thought that equipment was getting 'too powerful' when they saw top-end Velious gear, and top-end Luclin gear, and top-end Planes of Power gear.
If the next expansion expands the level cap up to 90, then I'm sure they'll find room for some bigger numbers and maybe even add interesting new effects for old maxed-out numbers (eg, at 81+, double attack chances over 100% might allow for a triple attack, and so on).
There is always room for progression as you can invent new stats as needed to expand progression:
ppl capped primary stats ? ok let's introduce crits and DA
ppl capped crits ? ok let's put more DA gear / CA damage / haste gear
ppl capped crits and DA and CA damage ? ok let's put base damage gear, crit bonus and critical mitigation
ppl capped base damage and critical mitigation ? ok let's make a new xpac with new gear and change the new hot stat (double spell attack, flurry, double CA ? +AOE attack ?)

No please... this game is already getting stupid with all the random stats added simply because they couldn't think of any better way to progress.

Lethe5683 · 04-08-2009, 09:36 AM

Bratface wrote:

Lethe5683 wrote:
I hate the shard sysytem especially due to the fact that it compltly limits each class to a particular playstyle and provides no alternate equipment. Also because there is shard armor they did not bother to put any other reasonably good armor drops in any of the isntances.
Now that's funny because I see lots of choices for my toons, my priests have melee options and healer options, in fact I think my toons have a greater number of options since TSO and I don't have to farm zones for drops that don't drop, I can just aquire the currancy of the realm (shards) and BUY what I want instead of killing a mob over and over again hoping it finally drops the drop I want.
I often wonder if you even play the same game as the rest of us since your experience is so opposite from most other people.

Are you kidding? Ok... healers get two choices.... two is a lot of choices since... when? Most other classes only get one choice of gear.

revren · 04-08-2009, 09:54 AM

Hey Hey

What ever replaces the mythical would most likly not require have the mythical now in game, there may be an added quest line if you do not have it , but there would be a workaround.

As for the new upgrades + laser guns on sharks Casus my lock needs more laser guns , and sharks would just be a nice casting animation for the people into that sort of thing.

Welcome Home

Rev

Faenril · 04-08-2009, 10:12 AM

Lethe5683 wrote:

Faenril@Nagafen wrote:
Tibis@Unrest wrote:
In EQ1, people thought that equipment was getting 'too powerful' when they saw top-end Velious gear, and top-end Luclin gear, and top-end Planes of Power gear.
If the next expansion expands the level cap up to 90, then I'm sure they'll find room for some bigger numbers and maybe even add interesting new effects for old maxed-out numbers (eg, at 81+, double attack chances over 100% might allow for a triple attack, and so on).
There is always room for progression as you can invent new stats as needed to expand progression:
ppl capped primary stats ? ok let's introduce crits and DA
ppl capped crits ? ok let's put more DA gear / CA damage / haste gear
ppl capped crits and DA and CA damage ? ok let's put base damage gear, crit bonus and critical mitigation
ppl capped base damage and critical mitigation ? ok let's make a new xpac with new gear and change the new hot stat (double spell attack, flurry, double CA ? +AOE attack ?)
No please... this game is already getting stupid with all the random stats added simply because they couldn't think of any better way to progress.

I'm not saying this is a good way to achieve progression, or that it makes any sense, even from a business perspective.

I don't personnally like the way they "invent" new stats with every xpac just to make room for progression, and I agree it could be done much better with long term progression plans...

Why let ppl cap everything in the first place eh ? What's the point having critical hits if every hit is a critical one ? I mean you should be happy when you see a bold number and think "oh I'm so lucky I got a critical hit" instead of "oh crap bad luck I didn't crit on this one what the heck I got 95 crit chance".

But still this is most likely the way things will happen...

Lethe5683 · 04-08-2009, 10:19 AM

They should really nerf the heck out of equipment and never let it get out of control like it is currently again.

Gisallo · 04-08-2009, 10:52 AM

Rijacki wrote:

erin wrote:
Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:
you will also have the decay system for tiered gear, after most of you have seen links to the current avatar gear and endgame drops you can understand they have nowhere to go but to nerf that gear and make it undesirable as you get to the new level cap. personally the fact that they overpowered the gear so much and forced the future decay system on the rest of the players is what irks me the most. i hated the thought of the decay system.
Link?
If this is true I will be seriously looking for a new game fairly quickly. No I'm not rage quitting, but any sort of gear decay system is a massive turn off for me, and generally I don't play games that use it.
Only players have speculated about a 'decay' system.
In TSO beta and then on Test for a while, the devs were toying with expanding and making more transparent the difference in using, as an example, level 69 gear against a level 82 target vs using level 77 gear vs the same level 82 target. The gear wouldn't "decay" but gear far below the level of the target would be reduced in its effects, sort of like a diminishing returns effect. It would, though, make a level 45 charm utterly worthless vs a level 85 epic target while still being greatly effective vs a level 55 target.
However, it, like the fighter changes, has been put back on the drawing board for more redesign since it ended up being more confusing and fed more alarmist responses than any benefits it engendered. Calling it a 'decay' is one such alamist response borne out of a lack of understand for the concept and/or execution.

If I am not mistaken on the Beta forums it was stated that decaying gear would be implemented but that its implementation would not occurr until next expansion for various reasons. As far as I can see its really the only way to deal with gear inflation at this point.

liveja · 04-08-2009, 11:09 AM

Valkenberg@Lucan DLere wrote:

As far as I can see its really the only way to deal with gear inflation at this point.

When EQ1 was first released, truly "uber" gear had +5 to one or two stats, a slightly bigger damage range, maybe a few resists or two. This situation was fine for quite a while.

Then Velious came out, with the Ancient Velium weapons that had something like +5 to all stats & resists, & a nicer damage range.

Then, Luclin came out, & all of a sudden even the most common stuff had multiple stat & resist bonuses, & proc effects as well. That was the beginning of the end for EQ1 itemization; everthing after that was mudflated out of reason.

EQ2 was fine for a while, too ... until ROK came out, & all of a sudden ROK gear was significantly inflated relative to gear from previous expansion, so much so that eventually SOE went through & updated gear from the older zones.

The point I'm trying to make here is that an item decay system is NOT the only way to deal with gear inflation. A much better way is for the Devs to learn some freekin' itemization discipline, & quit going nutzo with the procs & the inflated stat/resist buffs. But that would require them to change their ways & go back to a more conservative itemization approach ... which I not only don't see happening, but also believe would be wildly unpopular with players who have grown accustomed to mudflation & will whine if they don't get more.

In short: IMO, it's not just the Devs painting themselves into a corner ... the player base is the ones handing them the brushes & paint.

Spyderbite · 04-08-2009, 11:47 AM

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

In short: IMO, it's not just the Devs painting themselves into a corner ... the player base is the ones handing them the brushes & paint.

Heh.. I was waiting for somebody in this thread to finally state the obvious! XD

The devs don't just pull these things out of their arses. People ask for this kind of stuff no matter what aspect of the game it is. The players need to stop pointing fingers exclusively at the development team and instead turn around to the guy/gal standing next to them in game and smack them in the back of the head and scream "Knock it off!".

NardacMM · 04-08-2009, 02:40 PM

I don't think this is "painting themselves into a corner" at all.

With the exception of EQ1's Gates of Discord, few expansions have required top-end gear to progress through the next 10 levels. T8 gear will become inferior. That's just the way it is. I've been comfortable with that throughout my 10-year EQ history. You know that what you obtain now will be obsolete when they increase the level cap every 2 years. But that being said, having top of the line T8 gear will help you progress faster and limit the number of times you die when you mistakenly pull multiple mobs in a new zone. It also allows you to do harder content sooner.

Another 10 levels to progress through will be much better at keeping people interested than keeping the cap at 80.

Regarding epics, I'm sure SOE will improve the epics (or keep new weapons inferior). In addition, I'm sure they'll make epic v1 a pre-req for epic v2.

.....Granted, it will be easier for 90s to obtain epic v1 than it was for everyone else, but that's the price you pay for being an "early adopter" of new technology. Those who bought a plasma tv 5 years ago paid thousands of dollars more than I paid this year (for something better.) But those people HAD to have the new technology as soon as it came out. They knew that it would be easier (cheaper) to get one if they waited 2 years.

I am excited to being levelling again.

Odys · 04-08-2009, 02:55 PM

Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:
In short: IMO, it's not just the Devs painting themselves into a corner ... the player base is the ones handing them the brushes & paint.
Heh.. I was waiting for somebody in this thread to finally state the obvious! XD
The devs don't just pull these things out of their arses. People ask for this kind of stuff no matter what aspect of the game it is. The players need to stop pointing fingers exclusively at the development team and instead turn around to the guy/gal standing next to them in game and smack them in the back of the head and scream "Knock it off!".

I was mentoring down to 52 to help people finishing the two lavastorm HQ when we spotted a ^^ 50ish named monster,

he was easy and dropped ornate chest, in it a no trade shield with level like 50 on it, the shield stat were close to early ROK gear, probably much better than any t7 raid. The shield was indeed close to the mastercrafted shield i use to solo.

The collections also give charms with +55 to a stat, if you compare to t6 dolls giving like 10 you conclude that the dev went mad. We also got a crazy monk belt from a named that is close to the book of tranix, item was 50ish and teh stats close to early t8 items.

Faenril · 04-09-2009, 06:35 AM

Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:
In short: IMO, it's not just the Devs painting themselves into a corner ... the player base is the ones handing them the brushes & paint.
Heh.. I was waiting for somebody in this thread to finally state the obvious! XD
The devs don't just pull these things out of their arses. People ask for this kind of stuff no matter what aspect of the game it is. The players need to stop pointing fingers exclusively at the development team and instead turn around to the guy/gal standing next to them in game and smack them in the back of the head and scream "Knock it off!".

Hehe it is honorable to take the devs defense but I completely disagree on that one.

Players typically come with plenty of silly/unrealistic/non reasonnable requests all the time. Most players do not think in the long term when they query changes, nor do they see the big picture of the game as their scope is limited to their own personnal experience (playstyle, the few classes they play, the tier they play, the content they have access to...).

So I think it is to be expected that players come with plenty of insane requests, while of course some stuff is more enlightened and completely relevant from time to time.

It IS the dev team's job to sort out what is good for the sake of the game from what is not in the long run, to pick the good suggestions, refine them and transform them into safe implementations that improve the game, are consistent with concepts already in place, and can evolve further later.

In software development the typical customer comes with a one liner "I want the software to do this or that". And then it is your job as a dev to figure out what the implications behind the basic idea are and how to fullfill this wish without breaking existing or planned stuff.

It is far too easy to say "it's players fault we only gave them what they ask", because in the end it is the dev staff responsability to ensure that this game is still running and playable 2 years later. Development in this team seems to be driven to catter to the ones crying loudly at a given time, then another segment of the population starts begging for changes as they feel like they got screwed in last update/xpac/revamp. Rince and repeat. Not to mention their own bad ideas that seem disconnected from the game's "reality" that they regularly come with on their own.

There does not seem to be a big picture, a long term plan where they are going, instead it sounds like the game direction changes as the wind blows a different way or as they try to copy the next successfull product. Also the communication between the different teams looks terrible when gear does not fit classes mechanics which in turn do not fit the content and so on and so on...

Let's make a real life analogy, very relevant imo:

Your child likes candy. Several times a day he begs for candy. It IS your responsability as a parent to refuse him what he asks everytime he asks for it, and instead to find the right compromise/balance (oO balance on EQ2 forums zomg). The child does not know what is good for him in the long run, because he does not have the experience or the input elements to decide, let alone his faculty to make reasonnable decisions. He just sees his immediate need, his desire for instant satisfaction, and does not know or care about the long term consequences. If you are weak and mindlessly satisfy your child's desire everytime, your child will end fat and in bad health in the long run. YOU failed as a parent, you can't say your child failed as a child if you see what I mean.

I think it is a safe analogy to say the devs are the parents of this game, and consequently it's their job not to destroy it in order to make a few vocal persons who "want it and want it now" happy.

I'm sorry but since ROK itemization is gone completely [Removed for Content] as Fyreflyte or whoever is making items got crazy with stats and procs and whatnot. The players may have asked for it, I have honnestly no idea, but STILL the devs can only blame themselves when they have to invent new artificial stats like critical mitigation and alternate mechanics significantly or make backward progression every other xpac because they didn't leave enough room in the first place.

I agree it is sometimes cheap to put all blame on the devs, but shifting the blame to the players is even cheaper imo.

Armawk · 04-09-2009, 07:11 AM

Timorous Deep stuff is just silly.. remake of everfrost it got worse.. upgraded MC is crazy good in some tiers and types. Some stuff like dolls is now a total waste of time. Basically its just all out of kilter and messed up, with tier and quality giving literally no hint of how good it will be. Fabled drops from old world are worse than treasured and MUCH worse than MC, and they cant be bothered to fix them (literally).

Someone indeed needs to go through itemisation with a comb (or chainsaw more like) but it aint gonna happen. They dont care what happens to anything pre-cap unless its just been made anyway, if something put in makes you level faster or makes you go to a revamped zone then they are happy.

Brook · 04-09-2009, 10:05 AM

shaunfletcher wrote:

Timorous Deep stuff is just silly.. remake of everfrost it got worse.. upgraded MC is crazy good in some tiers and types. Some stuff like dolls is now a total waste of time. Basically its just all out of kilter and messed up, with tier and quality giving literally no hint of how good it will be. Fabled drops from old world are worse than treasured and MUCH worse than MC, and they cant be bothered to fix them (literally).
Someone indeed needs to go through itemisation with a comb (or chainsaw more like) but it aint gonna happen. They dont care what happens to anything pre-cap unless its just been made anyway, if something put in makes you level faster or makes you go to a revamped zone then they are happy.

QFE

liveja · 04-09-2009, 11:43 AM

Faenril@Nagafen wrote:

It IS the dev team's job to sort out what is good for the sake of the game from what is not in the long run, to pick the good suggestions, refine them and transform them into safe implementations that improve the game, are consistent with concepts already in place, and can evolve further later.

Oddly enough, when they do THAT, they get accused of ignoring the player base. It's a no-win situation for them, made so by the player base.

Gaige · 04-09-2009, 11:45 AM

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

Oddly enough, when they do THAT, they get accused of ignoring the player base. It's a no-win situation for them, made so by the player base.

Sometimes they need to ignore the playerbase. The problem is normally that when they choose to listen and when they choose to ignore should usually be switched.

liveja · 04-09-2009, 11:54 AM

Gage wrote:

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:
Oddly enough, when they do THAT, they get accused of ignoring the player base. It's a no-win situation for them, made so by the player base.
Sometimes they need to ignore the playerbase.

I agree. My point, however, was that it's a lose-lose for them, regardless of what they do. I honestly think it's a LOT more important that the player base wakes up & learns to freekin' play. Too many can't seem to, which is why we get noxious garbage like "if it wasn't for grey shards I'd have no shards at all."

Maybe if more people simply learned how to play, there would be far less complaining for the Devs to ignore.

Faenril · 04-09-2009, 12:00 PM

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

Gage wrote:
Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:
Oddly enough, when they do THAT, they get accused of ignoring the player base. It's a no-win situation for them, made so by the player base.
Sometimes they need to ignore the playerbase.
I agree. My point, however, was that it's a lose-lose for them, regardless of what they do. I honestly think it's a LOT more important that the player base wakes up & learns to freekin' play. Too many can't seem to, which is why we get noxious garbage like "if it wasn't for grey shards I'd have no shards at all."
Maybe if more people simply learned how to play, there would be far less complaining for the Devs to ignore.

Well if they loose anyway, what should matter is to preserve the game in the long run. What ppl cry for is not necessarily what brings or holds more subscribers in the long run.

Xanu · 04-09-2009, 12:07 PM

Why is everyone blaming the devs for the changes?

It's the product team that's out of touch, I'm sure, and not listening much to the players, if that is the case in the first place.

You have to realize that the Development team is a tool. They do what they're told by the product management team. Yes, they have some input but not so far as to make any changes they want willy-nilly. It all goes through the product team.

Why is the product team making these changes? Because it's what the player base wants. Think of how many people complain on this board and then multiply that by at least four and you'll see why. People enjoying the game don't take time out to come to these boards and complain.

I'm enjoying the game still after five years. I haven't had any complaints about the changes because I primarily solo and group with friends and there are many like me.

I'm not saying your complaints aren't valid for your playstyle; I'm just saying that there is a lot more people with different playstyles than you. Product Management can't please everyone, just the majority.

Relax, enjoy the game and, while still enjoying the game, perhaps look at other games. I hear WoW has lots of Raid content, too.

nomatterwhat · 04-09-2009, 12:23 PM

Xanu@Kithicor wrote:

Why is everyone blaming the devs for the changes?
It's the product team that's out of touch, I'm sure, and not listening much to the players, if that is the case in the first place.
You have to realize that the Development team is a tool. They do what they're told by the product management team. Yes, they have some input but not so far as to make any changes they want willy-nilly. It all goes through the product team.
Why is the product team making these changes? Because it's what the player base wants. Think of how many people complain on this board and then multiply that by at least four and you'll see why. People enjoying the game don't take time out to come to these boards and complain.
I'm enjoying the game still after five years. I haven't had any complaints about the changes because I primarily solo and group with friends and there are many like me.
I'm not saying your complaints aren't valid for your playstyle; I'm just saying that there is a lot more people with different playstyles than you. Product Management can't please everyone, just the majority.
Relax, enjoy the game and, while still enjoying the game, perhaps look at other games. I hear WoW has lots of Raid content, too.

as a software developer this always confused me a bit too. But I think when people refer to Devs now, they just mean the entire production/development team at SOE. programmer/artist/project manager, I can see how they can be called devs, they are afterall responsible for the production of the game. It's just a word of convenience; people at SOE know who are responsible for the design decisions for the new expansion. Doesn't mean they'll listen to us. The standards have fallen with their software anyway. 3 Month lavastorm update equates to changing the beach area a little bit and adding in a x2 raid. This expansion will be a smashing success before it's even developed, why? Cause they measure success on knowing that the large majority of active players are going to buy it anyway (and for all their second accounts), it's a foregone conclusion. It'll also provide another chance to pick up new players. TSO was case and point that they don't need to develop expansions with nearly the same effort they used to since no matter how much time they put into it, it'll net about the same revenue... so why bother making anything good anymore, right SoE??? Yeah you know I got your number.

There's no doubt in my mind this new expansion will be an even more total pile of crap than TSO... and you'll see the usual posters defending it.

Faenril · 04-09-2009, 12:39 PM

nomatterwhat wrote:

But I think when people refer to Devs now, they just mean the entire production/development team at SOE.

Indeed it is difficult to tell the difference unless you know how a software company works.

Also historically game development is more technical oriented (the actual dev) than product/concept oriented (the actual marketing/designers).

And I agree regarding the quality and amount of content. They both go regularly downhill. When I started playing this game I had the feeling everything was fitting together, the world was more consistent, performance was decent, bugs were seldom. Now after few xpacs it's more like a patchwork made of pieces that don't fit together that well anymore, they try to put glue to make everything stick but the base seems less and less reliable to build on top. Performance steadily decreases despite upgrades, lag gets worse with every xpac, and content development keeps slowing down with more and more recycling of old models/maps. Sad, but this is relevant for almost any software as it gets older, unless the ones exceptionnally well planned and maintained. This game is not one of them. That's understandable, it's not worth it considering a game's limited lifespan expectation.

04-07-2009, 01:04 PM	#31
krrr Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 197	Tibis_Heartseeker wrote: In EQ1, people thought that equipment was getting 'too powerful' when they saw top-end Velious gear, and top-end Luclin gear, and top-end Planes of Power gear. If the next expansion expands the level cap up to 90, then I'm sure they'll find room for some bigger numbers and maybe even add interesting new effects for old maxed-out numbers (eg, at 81+, double attack chances over 100% might allow for a triple attack, and so on). Massive nerf to everything and everyone is more likely scenario (done through "gear scaling")

04-07-2009, 05:44 PM	#33
therodge Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 824	Gilasil wrote: I can see it now. After two years of blood, sweat and tears I finally get my mythical. The next day the new expansion is released. Within a week I'm able to buy a mastercrafted weapon off the broker which is better then that mythical. this is just going by genral stat progression, a mastercrafted 1 hander will be sitting at a rateing of 100 ish while a good teir 9 legendary 1hander will probobly be sitting at the 120-130 rating range. it should be noted, most mythicals wont be completly shelved till probobly late teir 9 raiding (if at all) i mean just look the healer item from claymore was used forever, and the soulfire reward was used by raid tanks until they got their myth. really what makes mythicals mythical are their effects and to much lesser extent their acual stats

04-07-2009, 05:53 PM	#34
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	therodge wrote: Gilasil wrote: I can see it now. After two years of blood, sweat and tears I finally get my mythical. The next day the new expansion is released. Within a week I'm able to buy a mastercrafted weapon off the broker which is better then that mythical. this is just going by genral stat progression, a mastercrafted 1 hander will be sitting at a rateing of 100 ish while a good teir 9 legendary 1hander will probobly be sitting at the 120-130 rating range. it should be noted, most mythicals wont be completly shelved till probobly late teir 9 raiding (if at all) i mean just look the healer item from claymore was used forever, and the soulfire reward was used by raid tanks until they got their myth. really what makes mythicals mythical are their effects and to much lesser extent their acual stats Um, Mythical 2.0? It's reasonable to believe at some point in T9 you'll actually imbue/augment/upgrade your mythical in some manner. __________________

04-07-2009, 06:05 PM	#35
therodge Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 824	Atan@Unrest wrote: therodge wrote: Gilasil wrote: I can see it now. After two years of blood, sweat and tears I finally get my mythical. The next day the new expansion is released. Within a week I'm able to buy a mastercrafted weapon off the broker which is better then that mythical. this is just going by genral stat progression, a mastercrafted 1 hander will be sitting at a rateing of 100 ish while a good teir 9 legendary 1hander will probobly be sitting at the 120-130 rating range. it should be noted, most mythicals wont be completly shelved till probobly late teir 9 raiding (if at all) i mean just look the healer item from claymore was used forever, and the soulfire reward was used by raid tanks until they got their myth. really what makes mythicals mythical are their effects and to much lesser extent their acual stats Um, Mythical 2.0? It's reasonable to believe at some point in T9 you'll actually imbue/augment/upgrade your mythical in some manner. i agree, but you prorobly arnt going to upgrade a myth until high end raid mob 01 so my point remains valid

04-07-2009, 06:24 PM	#36
ke'la Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 5,445	Atan@Unrest wrote: therodge wrote: Gilasil wrote: I can see it now. After two years of blood, sweat and tears I finally get my mythical. The next day the new expansion is released. Within a week I'm able to buy a mastercrafted weapon off the broker which is better then that mythical. this is just going by genral stat progression, a mastercrafted 1 hander will be sitting at a rateing of 100 ish while a good teir 9 legendary 1hander will probobly be sitting at the 120-130 rating range. it should be noted, most mythicals wont be completly shelved till probobly late teir 9 raiding (if at all) i mean just look the healer item from claymore was used forever, and the soulfire reward was used by raid tanks until they got their myth. really what makes mythicals mythical are their effects and to much lesser extent their acual stats Um, Mythical 2.0? It's reasonable to believe at some point in T9 you'll actually imbue/augment/upgrade your mythical in some manner. Consitering Fyrelight more or less has stated that the Epic is supposed to be the end all be all weopon... I would think it only makes sence for it to be buffed via some new Epic level quests, instead of just getting a replacement. My prefured way to progress it: Fabled v1 required to start Fabled v.2 quest Fabled v2 required to start Mythical v.2 quest Mythical v1 + Mythical v2 = Mythical v2.5(kinda like how the EBBC worked only neither Epic 1 or 2 disapears for apperance) __________________

04-07-2009, 02:30 PM	#32
Gilasil Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 907	I can see it now. After two years of blood, sweat and tears I finally get my mythical. The next day the new expansion is released. Within a week I'm able to buy a mastercrafted weapon off the broker which is better then that mythical.

04-07-2009, 06:29 PM	#37
Kordran Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,484	therodge wrote: i agree, but you prorobly arnt going to upgrade a myth until high end raid mob 01 so my point remains valid Then again, that raid content won't be balanced for having your v2 mythical. It's kind of like VP vs. TSO x4s. VP isn't balanced for players having their mythicals, naturally, since you need to be able to raid VP in order to get the mythical updates (edit: and of course, VP existed before mythicals did). But, TSO is balanced with the idea that players will have their mythicals. Presuming they continue this kind of raid progression, there will be a series of quests that end in raids that will require you have your v1 mythical; completing that, and getting your upgraded v2 mythical, will become a pre-requisite for progressing into the T9 content beyond that point. If they're smart, they'd also provide a heroic path where people could upgrade their v1 fabled to a v2 fabled, to give the non-raiders a progression path for their weapon. __________________

04-07-2009, 06:30 PM	#38
Armawk Server: Everfrost Guild: Nos Es Rutilus Rank: Tirones Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,240	I would predict that the mythical (and even the fabled) will remain better than any non fabled weapon, and in the case of the mythical better than any weapon except the upgraded mythical mentioned above and some exotic raid drops, which will still not be better than the upgraded mythical which will be the best weapon in the game. The creation of the epic has created a structure soe have to stick to if they arent to look stupid. Essentially the epic in the relevant form has to be the best weapon you can have at whatever progression point you are at. This however is not a stifler of creativity but a constraint which forces creativity. Some kind of big quest/raid sequence to upgrade mythicals is hardly going to be a bad thing.

04-08-2009, 05:38 AM	#39
Faenril Server: Nagafen Guild: Purity Rank: Sushi Maker - Alt Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,136	Tibis@Unrest wrote: In EQ1, people thought that equipment was getting 'too powerful' when they saw top-end Velious gear, and top-end Luclin gear, and top-end Planes of Power gear. If the next expansion expands the level cap up to 90, then I'm sure they'll find room for some bigger numbers and maybe even add interesting new effects for old maxed-out numbers (eg, at 81+, double attack chances over 100% might allow for a triple attack, and so on). There is always room for progression as you can invent new stats as needed to expand progression: ppl capped primary stats ? ok let's introduce crits and DA ppl capped crits ? ok let's put more DA gear / CA damage / haste gear ppl capped crits and DA and CA damage ? ok let's put base damage gear, crit bonus and critical mitigation ppl capped base damage and critical mitigation ? ok let's make a new xpac with new gear and change the new hot stat (double spell attack, flurry, double CA ? +AOE attack ?)

04-08-2009, 09:35 AM	#40
Lethe5683 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,351	Faenril@Nagafen wrote: Tibis@Unrest wrote: In EQ1, people thought that equipment was getting 'too powerful' when they saw top-end Velious gear, and top-end Luclin gear, and top-end Planes of Power gear. If the next expansion expands the level cap up to 90, then I'm sure they'll find room for some bigger numbers and maybe even add interesting new effects for old maxed-out numbers (eg, at 81+, double attack chances over 100% might allow for a triple attack, and so on). There is always room for progression as you can invent new stats as needed to expand progression: ppl capped primary stats ? ok let's introduce crits and DA ppl capped crits ? ok let's put more DA gear / CA damage / haste gear ppl capped crits and DA and CA damage ? ok let's put base damage gear, crit bonus and critical mitigation ppl capped base damage and critical mitigation ? ok let's make a new xpac with new gear and change the new hot stat (double spell attack, flurry, double CA ? +AOE attack ?) No please... this game is already getting stupid with all the random stats added simply because they couldn't think of any better way to progress.

04-08-2009, 09:36 AM	#41
Lethe5683 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,351	Bratface wrote: Lethe5683 wrote: I hate the shard sysytem especially due to the fact that it compltly limits each class to a particular playstyle and provides no alternate equipment. Also because there is shard armor they did not bother to put any other reasonably good armor drops in any of the isntances. Now that's funny because I see lots of choices for my toons, my priests have melee options and healer options, in fact I think my toons have a greater number of options since TSO and I don't have to farm zones for drops that don't drop, I can just aquire the currancy of the realm (shards) and BUY what I want instead of killing a mob over and over again hoping it finally drops the drop I want. I often wonder if you even play the same game as the rest of us since your experience is so opposite from most other people. Are you kidding? Ok... healers get two choices.... two is a lot of choices since... when? Most other classes only get one choice of gear.

04-08-2009, 09:54 AM	#42
revren Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 217	Hey Hey What ever replaces the mythical would most likly not require have the mythical now in game, there may be an added quest line if you do not have it , but there would be a workaround. As for the new upgrades + laser guns on sharks Casus my lock needs more laser guns , and sharks would just be a nice casting animation for the people into that sort of thing. Welcome Home Rev

04-08-2009, 10:12 AM	#43
Faenril Server: Nagafen Guild: Purity Rank: Sushi Maker - Alt Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,136	Lethe5683 wrote: Faenril@Nagafen wrote: Tibis@Unrest wrote: In EQ1, people thought that equipment was getting 'too powerful' when they saw top-end Velious gear, and top-end Luclin gear, and top-end Planes of Power gear. If the next expansion expands the level cap up to 90, then I'm sure they'll find room for some bigger numbers and maybe even add interesting new effects for old maxed-out numbers (eg, at 81+, double attack chances over 100% might allow for a triple attack, and so on). There is always room for progression as you can invent new stats as needed to expand progression: ppl capped primary stats ? ok let's introduce crits and DA ppl capped crits ? ok let's put more DA gear / CA damage / haste gear ppl capped crits and DA and CA damage ? ok let's put base damage gear, crit bonus and critical mitigation ppl capped base damage and critical mitigation ? ok let's make a new xpac with new gear and change the new hot stat (double spell attack, flurry, double CA ? +AOE attack ?) No please... this game is already getting stupid with all the random stats added simply because they couldn't think of any better way to progress. I'm not saying this is a good way to achieve progression, or that it makes any sense, even from a business perspective. I don't personnally like the way they "invent" new stats with every xpac just to make room for progression, and I agree it could be done much better with long term progression plans... Why let ppl cap everything in the first place eh ? What's the point having critical hits if every hit is a critical one ? I mean you should be happy when you see a bold number and think "oh I'm so lucky I got a critical hit" instead of "oh crap bad luck I didn't crit on this one what the heck I got 95 crit chance". But still this is most likely the way things will happen...

04-08-2009, 10:19 AM	#44
Lethe5683 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,351	They should really nerf the heck out of equipment and never let it get out of control like it is currently again.

04-08-2009, 10:52 AM	#45
Gisallo Server: Lucan DLere Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,910	Rijacki wrote: erin wrote: Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: you will also have the decay system for tiered gear, after most of you have seen links to the current avatar gear and endgame drops you can understand they have nowhere to go but to nerf that gear and make it undesirable as you get to the new level cap. personally the fact that they overpowered the gear so much and forced the future decay system on the rest of the players is what irks me the most. i hated the thought of the decay system. Link? If this is true I will be seriously looking for a new game fairly quickly. No I'm not rage quitting, but any sort of gear decay system is a massive turn off for me, and generally I don't play games that use it. Only players have speculated about a 'decay' system. In TSO beta and then on Test for a while, the devs were toying with expanding and making more transparent the difference in using, as an example, level 69 gear against a level 82 target vs using level 77 gear vs the same level 82 target. The gear wouldn't "decay" but gear far below the level of the target would be reduced in its effects, sort of like a diminishing returns effect. It would, though, make a level 45 charm utterly worthless vs a level 85 epic target while still being greatly effective vs a level 55 target. However, it, like the fighter changes, has been put back on the drawing board for more redesign since it ended up being more confusing and fed more alarmist responses than any benefits it engendered. Calling it a 'decay' is one such alamist response borne out of a lack of understand for the concept and/or execution. If I am not mistaken on the Beta forums it was stated that decaying gear would be implemented but that its implementation would not occurr until next expansion for various reasons. As far as I can see its really the only way to deal with gear inflation at this point. __________________

04-08-2009, 11:09 AM	#46
liveja General Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends Posts: 4,793	Valkenberg@Lucan DLere wrote: As far as I can see its really the only way to deal with gear inflation at this point. When EQ1 was first released, truly "uber" gear had +5 to one or two stats, a slightly bigger damage range, maybe a few resists or two. This situation was fine for quite a while. Then Velious came out, with the Ancient Velium weapons that had something like +5 to all stats & resists, & a nicer damage range. Then, Luclin came out, & all of a sudden even the most common stuff had multiple stat & resist bonuses, & proc effects as well. That was the beginning of the end for EQ1 itemization; everthing after that was mudflated out of reason. EQ2 was fine for a while, too ... until ROK came out, & all of a sudden ROK gear was significantly inflated relative to gear from previous expansion, so much so that eventually SOE went through & updated gear from the older zones. The point I'm trying to make here is that an item decay system is NOT the only way to deal with gear inflation. A much better way is for the Devs to learn some freekin' itemization discipline, & quit going nutzo with the procs & the inflated stat/resist buffs. But that would require them to change their ways & go back to a more conservative itemization approach ... which I not only don't see happening, but also believe would be wildly unpopular with players who have grown accustomed to mudflation & will whine if they don't get more. In short: IMO, it's not just the Devs painting themselves into a corner ... the player base is the ones handing them the brushes & paint. __________________

04-08-2009, 11:47 AM	#47
Spyderbite Server: Venekor Guild: Dark Vengeance Rank: Member Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Connecticut Posts: 4,262	Flaye@Mistmoore wrote: In short: IMO, it's not just the Devs painting themselves into a corner ... the player base is the ones handing them the brushes & paint. Heh.. I was waiting for somebody in this thread to finally state the obvious! XD The devs don't just pull these things out of their arses. People ask for this kind of stuff no matter what aspect of the game it is. The players need to stop pointing fingers exclusively at the development team and instead turn around to the guy/gal standing next to them in game and smack them in the back of the head and scream "Knock it off!".

04-08-2009, 02:40 PM	#48
NardacMM Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 319	I don't think this is "painting themselves into a corner" at all. With the exception of EQ1's Gates of Discord, few expansions have required top-end gear to progress through the next 10 levels. T8 gear will become inferior. That's just the way it is. I've been comfortable with that throughout my 10-year EQ history. You know that what you obtain now will be obsolete when they increase the level cap every 2 years. But that being said, having top of the line T8 gear will help you progress faster and limit the number of times you die when you mistakenly pull multiple mobs in a new zone. It also allows you to do harder content sooner. Another 10 levels to progress through will be much better at keeping people interested than keeping the cap at 80. Regarding epics, I'm sure SOE will improve the epics (or keep new weapons inferior). In addition, I'm sure they'll make epic v1 a pre-req for epic v2. .....Granted, it will be easier for 90s to obtain epic v1 than it was for everyone else, but that's the price you pay for being an "early adopter" of new technology. Those who bought a plasma tv 5 years ago paid thousands of dollars more than I paid this year (for something better.) But those people HAD to have the new technology as soon as it came out. They knew that it would be easier (cheaper) to get one if they waited 2 years. I am excited to being levelling again. __________________

04-08-2009, 02:55 PM	#49
Odys Server: Storms Guild: Eternitalis Rank: Cavalier Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,422	Spyderbite@Venekor wrote: Flaye@Mistmoore wrote: In short: IMO, it's not just the Devs painting themselves into a corner ... the player base is the ones handing them the brushes & paint. Heh.. I was waiting for somebody in this thread to finally state the obvious! XD The devs don't just pull these things out of their arses. People ask for this kind of stuff no matter what aspect of the game it is. The players need to stop pointing fingers exclusively at the development team and instead turn around to the guy/gal standing next to them in game and smack them in the back of the head and scream "Knock it off!". I was mentoring down to 52 to help people finishing the two lavastorm HQ when we spotted a ^^ 50ish named monster, he was easy and dropped ornate chest, in it a no trade shield with level like 50 on it, the shield stat were close to early ROK gear, probably much better than any t7 raid. The shield was indeed close to the mastercrafted shield i use to solo. The collections also give charms with +55 to a stat, if you compare to t6 dolls giving like 10 you conclude that the dev went mad. We also got a crazy monk belt from a named that is close to the book of tranix, item was 50ish and teh stats close to early t8 items. __________________

04-09-2009, 06:35 AM	#50
Faenril Server: Nagafen Guild: Purity Rank: Sushi Maker - Alt Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,136	Spyderbite@Venekor wrote: Flaye@Mistmoore wrote: In short: IMO, it's not just the Devs painting themselves into a corner ... the player base is the ones handing them the brushes & paint. Heh.. I was waiting for somebody in this thread to finally state the obvious! XD The devs don't just pull these things out of their arses. People ask for this kind of stuff no matter what aspect of the game it is. The players need to stop pointing fingers exclusively at the development team and instead turn around to the guy/gal standing next to them in game and smack them in the back of the head and scream "Knock it off!". Hehe it is honorable to take the devs defense but I completely disagree on that one. Players typically come with plenty of silly/unrealistic/non reasonnable requests all the time. Most players do not think in the long term when they query changes, nor do they see the big picture of the game as their scope is limited to their own personnal experience (playstyle, the few classes they play, the tier they play, the content they have access to...). So I think it is to be expected that players come with plenty of insane requests, while of course some stuff is more enlightened and completely relevant from time to time. It IS the dev team's job to sort out what is good for the sake of the game from what is not in the long run, to pick the good suggestions, refine them and transform them into safe implementations that improve the game, are consistent with concepts already in place, and can evolve further later. In software development the typical customer comes with a one liner "I want the software to do this or that". And then it is your job as a dev to figure out what the implications behind the basic idea are and how to fullfill this wish without breaking existing or planned stuff. It is far too easy to say "it's players fault we only gave them what they ask", because in the end it is the dev staff responsability to ensure that this game is still running and playable 2 years later. Development in this team seems to be driven to catter to the ones crying loudly at a given time, then another segment of the population starts begging for changes as they feel like they got screwed in last update/xpac/revamp. Rince and repeat. Not to mention their own bad ideas that seem disconnected from the game's "reality" that they regularly come with on their own. There does not seem to be a big picture, a long term plan where they are going, instead it sounds like the game direction changes as the wind blows a different way or as they try to copy the next successfull product. Also the communication between the different teams looks terrible when gear does not fit classes mechanics which in turn do not fit the content and so on and so on... Let's make a real life analogy, very relevant imo: Your child likes candy. Several times a day he begs for candy. It IS your responsability as a parent to refuse him what he asks everytime he asks for it, and instead to find the right compromise/balance (oO balance on EQ2 forums zomg). The child does not know what is good for him in the long run, because he does not have the experience or the input elements to decide, let alone his faculty to make reasonnable decisions. He just sees his immediate need, his desire for instant satisfaction, and does not know or care about the long term consequences. If you are weak and mindlessly satisfy your child's desire everytime, your child will end fat and in bad health in the long run. YOU failed as a parent, you can't say your child failed as a child if you see what I mean. I think it is a safe analogy to say the devs are the parents of this game, and consequently it's their job not to destroy it in order to make a few vocal persons who "want it and want it now" happy. I'm sorry but since ROK itemization is gone completely [Removed for Content] as Fyreflyte or whoever is making items got crazy with stats and procs and whatnot. The players may have asked for it, I have honnestly no idea, but STILL the devs can only blame themselves when they have to invent new artificial stats like critical mitigation and alternate mechanics significantly or make backward progression every other xpac because they didn't leave enough room in the first place. I agree it is sometimes cheap to put all blame on the devs, but shifting the blame to the players is even cheaper imo.

04-09-2009, 07:11 AM	#51
Armawk Server: Everfrost Guild: Nos Es Rutilus Rank: Tirones Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,240	Timorous Deep stuff is just silly.. remake of everfrost it got worse.. upgraded MC is crazy good in some tiers and types. Some stuff like dolls is now a total waste of time. Basically its just all out of kilter and messed up, with tier and quality giving literally no hint of how good it will be. Fabled drops from old world are worse than treasured and MUCH worse than MC, and they cant be bothered to fix them (literally). Someone indeed needs to go through itemisation with a comb (or chainsaw more like) but it aint gonna happen. They dont care what happens to anything pre-cap unless its just been made anyway, if something put in makes you level faster or makes you go to a revamped zone then they are happy.

04-09-2009, 10:05 AM	#52
Brook Tester Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,336	shaunfletcher wrote: Timorous Deep stuff is just silly.. remake of everfrost it got worse.. upgraded MC is crazy good in some tiers and types. Some stuff like dolls is now a total waste of time. Basically its just all out of kilter and messed up, with tier and quality giving literally no hint of how good it will be. Fabled drops from old world are worse than treasured and MUCH worse than MC, and they cant be bothered to fix them (literally). Someone indeed needs to go through itemisation with a comb (or chainsaw more like) but it aint gonna happen. They dont care what happens to anything pre-cap unless its just been made anyway, if something put in makes you level faster or makes you go to a revamped zone then they are happy. QFE __________________ But seriously, you're the kind of guy that zones into gears without a healer and spends the whole match talking about the fact there isn't a healer instead of contributing. I hate you, and everyone like you that plays this game. Please spend less time whining and more time winning, it contributes to the general growth of the game and makes gameplay more enjoyable for all.

04-09-2009, 11:43 AM	#53
liveja General Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends Posts: 4,793	Faenril@Nagafen wrote: It IS the dev team's job to sort out what is good for the sake of the game from what is not in the long run, to pick the good suggestions, refine them and transform them into safe implementations that improve the game, are consistent with concepts already in place, and can evolve further later. Oddly enough, when they do THAT, they get accused of ignoring the player base. It's a no-win situation for them, made so by the player base. __________________

04-09-2009, 11:45 AM	#54
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Flaye@Mistmoore wrote: Oddly enough, when they do THAT, they get accused of ignoring the player base. It's a no-win situation for them, made so by the player base. Sometimes they need to ignore the playerbase. The problem is normally that when they choose to listen and when they choose to ignore should usually be switched. __________________

04-09-2009, 11:54 AM	#55
liveja General Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends Posts: 4,793	Gage wrote: Flaye@Mistmoore wrote: Oddly enough, when they do THAT, they get accused of ignoring the player base. It's a no-win situation for them, made so by the player base. Sometimes they need to ignore the playerbase. I agree. My point, however, was that it's a lose-lose for them, regardless of what they do. I honestly think it's a LOT more important that the player base wakes up & learns to freekin' play. Too many can't seem to, which is why we get noxious garbage like "if it wasn't for grey shards I'd have no shards at all." Maybe if more people simply learned how to play, there would be far less complaining for the Devs to ignore. __________________

04-09-2009, 12:00 PM	#56
Faenril Server: Nagafen Guild: Purity Rank: Sushi Maker - Alt Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,136	Flaye@Mistmoore wrote: Gage wrote: Flaye@Mistmoore wrote: Oddly enough, when they do THAT, they get accused of ignoring the player base. It's a no-win situation for them, made so by the player base. Sometimes they need to ignore the playerbase. I agree. My point, however, was that it's a lose-lose for them, regardless of what they do. I honestly think it's a LOT more important that the player base wakes up & learns to freekin' play. Too many can't seem to, which is why we get noxious garbage like "if it wasn't for grey shards I'd have no shards at all." Maybe if more people simply learned how to play, there would be far less complaining for the Devs to ignore. Well if they loose anyway, what should matter is to preserve the game in the long run. What ppl cry for is not necessarily what brings or holds more subscribers in the long run.

04-09-2009, 12:07 PM	#57
Xanu Server: Kithicor Guild: Tres Amigos Rank: Legate Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 89	Why is everyone blaming the devs for the changes? It's the product team that's out of touch, I'm sure, and not listening much to the players, if that is the case in the first place. You have to realize that the Development team is a tool. They do what they're told by the product management team. Yes, they have some input but not so far as to make any changes they want willy-nilly. It all goes through the product team. Why is the product team making these changes? Because it's what the player base wants. Think of how many people complain on this board and then multiply that by at least four and you'll see why. People enjoying the game don't take time out to come to these boards and complain. I'm enjoying the game still after five years. I haven't had any complaints about the changes because I primarily solo and group with friends and there are many like me. I'm not saying your complaints aren't valid for your playstyle; I'm just saying that there is a lot more people with different playstyles than you. Product Management can't please everyone, just the majority. Relax, enjoy the game and, while still enjoying the game, perhaps look at other games. I hear WoW has lots of Raid content, too.

04-09-2009, 12:23 PM	#58
nomatterwhat Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 148	Xanu@Kithicor wrote: Why is everyone blaming the devs for the changes? It's the product team that's out of touch, I'm sure, and not listening much to the players, if that is the case in the first place. You have to realize that the Development team is a tool. They do what they're told by the product management team. Yes, they have some input but not so far as to make any changes they want willy-nilly. It all goes through the product team. Why is the product team making these changes? Because it's what the player base wants. Think of how many people complain on this board and then multiply that by at least four and you'll see why. People enjoying the game don't take time out to come to these boards and complain. I'm enjoying the game still after five years. I haven't had any complaints about the changes because I primarily solo and group with friends and there are many like me. I'm not saying your complaints aren't valid for your playstyle; I'm just saying that there is a lot more people with different playstyles than you. Product Management can't please everyone, just the majority. Relax, enjoy the game and, while still enjoying the game, perhaps look at other games. I hear WoW has lots of Raid content, too. as a software developer this always confused me a bit too. But I think when people refer to Devs now, they just mean the entire production/development team at SOE. programmer/artist/project manager, I can see how they can be called devs, they are afterall responsible for the production of the game. It's just a word of convenience; people at SOE know who are responsible for the design decisions for the new expansion. Doesn't mean they'll listen to us. The standards have fallen with their software anyway. 3 Month lavastorm update equates to changing the beach area a little bit and adding in a x2 raid. This expansion will be a smashing success before it's even developed, why? Cause they measure success on knowing that the large majority of active players are going to buy it anyway (and for all their second accounts), it's a foregone conclusion. It'll also provide another chance to pick up new players. TSO was case and point that they don't need to develop expansions with nearly the same effort they used to since no matter how much time they put into it, it'll net about the same revenue... so why bother making anything good anymore, right SoE??? Yeah you know I got your number. There's no doubt in my mind this new expansion will be an even more total pile of crap than TSO... and you'll see the usual posters defending it.

04-09-2009, 12:39 PM	#59
Faenril Server: Nagafen Guild: Purity Rank: Sushi Maker - Alt Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,136	nomatterwhat wrote: But I think when people refer to Devs now, they just mean the entire production/development team at SOE. Indeed it is difficult to tell the difference unless you know how a software company works. Also historically game development is more technical oriented (the actual dev) than product/concept oriented (the actual marketing/designers). And I agree regarding the quality and amount of content. They both go regularly downhill. When I started playing this game I had the feeling everything was fitting together, the world was more consistent, performance was decent, bugs were seldom. Now after few xpacs it's more like a patchwork made of pieces that don't fit together that well anymore, they try to put glue to make everything stick but the base seems less and less reliable to build on top. Performance steadily decreases despite upgrades, lag gets worse with every xpac, and content development keeps slowing down with more and more recycling of old models/maps. Sad, but this is relevant for almost any software as it gets older, unless the ones exceptionnally well planned and maintained. This game is not one of them. That's understandable, it's not worth it considering a game's limited lifespan expectation.