Mages and ranged weapons - Page 2

Gisallo · 01-05-2009, 12:55 AM

Lethe5683 wrote:

Well autoattack is very overpowered. But autoattack needs to be nerfed, mages don't need to get ranged attacks.

Oh yeah so lets nerf the one thing that makes some classes ALMOST the T1 dps they should be (namely rangers). Would you like to please explain to me HOW autoattack itself is OP? Not "well my class..." or "their class..." but actual hard numbers and parses that show that Autoattack dependant classes with similar tiered gear, positive group make up etc. are somehow blowing away the casters.

Does it make some classes harder to play because they have to time Autoattacks more than others? Yes, but in so far as the damage its not an issue. Nerf Autoattack and you will effectively KILL classes because we know that SOE is not going to up the damage on a ranger's ranged CA's to make up the difference and around 70-75% of their dps is based off their autoattack (as only one example). Right now there is arguably a minor imbalance, which also arguably effects Summoners more than most caster classes because of resists, but even in reading this thread there is far from a concensus even among the casters as to whether this really is a problem, simply an annoyance or even a complete non-issue.

Noaani · 01-05-2009, 01:38 AM

Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:

Oh yeah so lets nerf the one thing that makes some classes ALMOST the T1 dps they should be (namely rangers). Would you like to please explain to me HOW autoattack itself is OP? Not "well my class..." or "their class..." but actual hard numbers and parses that show that Autoattack dependant classes with similar tiered gear, positive group make up etc. are somehow blowing away the casters.

A well geared ranger in the right group is the only person that should be able to beat a MT group assassin on the parse with any regularity. They are able to parse so high due to having haste, DA and ranged crit capped, thus getting 2*8 - 16k auto attack hits in every 4 seconds or so. Add procs to that (such as offensive stance and poisons) and rangers rangers get ~65 - 70% of their DPS from auto attack and the procs it fires.

Auto attack is OP because it the scaling of buffs that only affect auto attack as well as the much higher damage rating on mythical weapons have caused it to deal a higher amount of damage in proportion to what it was doing earlier in the game.

Auto attack is not OP until you are mythical equipped.

Pins · 01-05-2009, 02:09 AM

Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:

Lethe5683 wrote:
Well autoattack is very overpowered. But autoattack needs to be nerfed, mages don't need to get ranged attacks.
Oh yeah so lets nerf the one thing that makes some classes ALMOST the T1 dps they should be (namely rangers). Would you like to please explain to me HOW autoattack itself is OP? Not "well my class..." or "their class..." but actual hard numbers and parses that show that Autoattack dependant classes with similar tiered gear, positive group make up etc. are somehow blowing away the casters.

Because nerfing auto attack without buffing CAs to compensate is exactly what they would do..... Autoattack damage has been spiraling out of control since EoF, CAs barely mean anything for most weapon-based classes, yet you don't see that as a problem? Then you are very ignorant.

Gisallo · 01-05-2009, 11:37 AM

Pinski wrote:

Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:
Lethe5683 wrote:
Well autoattack is very overpowered. But autoattack needs to be nerfed, mages don't need to get ranged attacks.
Oh yeah so lets nerf the one thing that makes some classes ALMOST the T1 dps they should be (namely rangers). Would you like to please explain to me HOW autoattack itself is OP? Not "well my class..." or "their class..." but actual hard numbers and parses that show that Autoattack dependant classes with similar tiered gear, positive group make up etc. are somehow blowing away the casters.
Because nerfing auto attack without buffing CAs to compensate is exactly what they would do..... Autoattack damage has been spiraling out of control since EoF, CAs barely mean anything for most weapon-based classes, yet you don't see that as a problem? Then you are very ignorant.

I see it as a problem believe me. I just LOVE sitting in a raid on my ranger and being a little bot behind my computer waiting to hear ACT go DING before I fire my next CA. Yeah that makes this game so gosh darn fun.... NOT

But I also KNOW that they would not buff CA's. How? When they went to fix the arrow mechanic they effectively nerfed ranged attacks for all the tiers prior to t8. Did they up the CA's to match it? No they did not. If they did not do it here why would they elsewhere? This game has never been one to nerf something and give you compensation in return...ever.

Also as has been noted, the AA problem really isn't a problem untyil you are in mythical land. I think it safe to say 1-5% of the population has mythicals. Do you change a mechanic that will mess up the game for 95% of the pop simply because the minority at the highest end percieve a problem? Especially when this means altering and thus trying to rebalance one of the core mechanics of the game? I would say it makes no business sense messing with a core mechanic, which could potentially cause a bigger problem, when it really only effects such a minority.

I mean seriously when you look at non-mythical raid and group parses casters are doing fine for the most part if they know what they are doing. When you look at mythical parses some types of casters are doing fine, it appears Summoners are the main issue. Summoners however have ALWAYS had issues and have for sometime been seen as the red headed step children among the casters. Trying to nerf a core mechanic is not the way to fix a specific classes problem though.

There are plenty of little buffs you could give to casters that would accomplish the same thing. I just hate it when the first thing anyone says is BIG NERF!!!! when a series of small buffs would likely accomplish the same thing

Noaani · 01-05-2009, 11:43 AM

Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:

This game has never been one to nerf something and give you compensation in return...ever.

That is because when they directly nerf a class ability, it is because that class is overpowered. Its common sense to most, but if they remove something from an overpowered class, and then give them something in return, we still end up with an overpowered class.

The best example of your statement here being outright WRONG was the recient fix to Overloaded Heal. It was counting anyone in the group as a potential to trigger its proc on a group heal, but a group heal should have only counted as a single proc. When the code was written for this to work the way it should, and was implemented on all Overloaded Heal gear, the proc rate of the effect was increased to compensate.

Zin`Car · 01-05-2009, 02:03 PM

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:

Seriously, mages should be able to use a crossbow, short bow or throwing knives.

Seriously, some people need to be given both a common sense test as well as an intelligence test before being allowed to create a toon. Sure, they can buy the software, install it, even pay for the account... but if you can't pass both exams, you simply get to stare at the login screen.

tantric · 01-05-2009, 03:31 PM

Actually as a Wizard you have a spell in your AA line that acts as a ranged melee attack. What I would Like to see is items to put in that vacant ammo box that add stats. All other classes have bags that fit in that slot that have stats on them. I currently have a single Deathfist burning arrow in there because it adds +1 str.

Every other class in the game has that slot availiable to them for Stat increases. Perhaps a bag to hold Caltrops or magic dust or something. At the very least allow us to place one of the tradeskill raws bags there. It's a totaly worthless spot as it currently stands.

Just my 2 coppers

Gisallo · 01-05-2009, 04:40 PM

Noaani wrote:

Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:
This game has never been one to nerf something and give you compensation in return...ever.
That is because when they directly nerf a class ability, it is because that class is overpowered. Its common sense to most, but if they remove something from an overpowered class, and then give them something in return, we still end up with an overpowered class.
The best example of your statement here being outright WRONG was the recient fix to Overloaded Heal. It was counting anyone in the group as a potential to trigger its proc on a group heal, but a group heal should have only counted as a single proc. When the code was written for this to work the way it should, and was implemented on all Overloaded Heal gear, the proc rate of the effect was increased to compensate.

Now for the sake of argument I will temporarily say there is a problem, I think the jury is still clearly out on this though as I continue. In the example you provided we are talking about gear, something that is very easy to do as here we are talking about itemization. Cut and paste a fix a fix across different gear, not to hard. This is a far cry from messing with a core game mechanic. I actually had to reread your post be sure I was looking at an apples and oranges comparison, an ideed I was.

If there is a fix needed messing with Autoattack is NOT the way to do it. A minimum of 12 classes are tied to the Autoattack mechanic for a large portion of their dps, aggro management, whatever. If you include melee speced healers then you are looking at at least 14. Even if they did decide to change the mechanic do you actually think that they will go and design, test and then implement changes for 12-14 different classes in order to accomodate a change to a basic game mechanic? Heck no.

I've been looking carefully at parses lately, groups and raids. I see differences between classes yeah, but these can be put down to what kind of group they were in more often than not. If all things are equal (player skill, gear, buffage etc) I really haven't seen that much in the way of differences lately. Do specifc classes have issues? Yes, but I do not see anything that says there is a problem for casters in general that would lead to a change in central mechanics to the game rather than changes to specific classes (whether it be buffing some casters or their gear or nerfing some scouts and their gear).

liveja · 01-05-2009, 06:36 PM

tantric wrote:

What I would Like to see is items to put in that vacant ammo box that add stats. All other classes have bags that fit in that slot that have stats on them. I currently have a single Deathfist burning arrow in there because it adds +1 str.

This suggestion I endorse heartily ... I hate having useless inventory slots.

Yimway · 01-05-2009, 06:49 PM

I would fully endorse more mages getting aa lines that increase auto-attack effectiveness and/or range.

When I play my mage, I'm certainly not 'ranged' as others here suggest. I'm up on the mob with auto-attack on so that I'm getting free dps swings between my spell casts, any mage that doesn't is just ignoring free dps.

I can sympathize with the OP's desire to have those auto swings with more range. As if the mob keeps repositioning, staying in autoattack range while not interupting the constant stream of casting is combersome.

For those that don't know, shift-r for walk mode and if you have decent focus you can move around and not interupt yourself. With lower focus, you'll need to 'crouch' as well, but you can find a movement rate to adjust position for autoattack swings without slowing down your spell casting. It's just annoying is all.

Necrotherian · 01-05-2009, 09:40 PM

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

tantric wrote:
What I would Like to see is items to put in that vacant ammo box that add stats. All other classes have bags that fit in that slot that have stats on them. I currently have a single Deathfist burning arrow in there because it adds +1 str.
This suggestion I endorse heartily ... I hate having useless inventory slots.

That is basically what I was suggesting on page 2, but it got buried in all the "My DPS is better than yours" chatter.

Noaani · 01-05-2009, 10:39 PM

tantric wrote:

Every other class in the game has that slot availiable to them for Stat increases. Perhaps a bag to hold Caltrops or magic dust or something. At the very least allow us to place one of the tradeskill raws bags there. It's a totaly worthless spot as it currently stands.

What stat increasing items are there for the ammo slot other than deathfist arrows?

Nerphon · 01-06-2009, 01:34 AM

Well im only level 63 so far but my conjuror usually has more than enough spells to cast to keep me busy, granted I dont always want to use all of them as much as some but I can even spam my fast nuke pretty efficiently without using anything else and still be busy without using much power at all.

Plus I got a pet to do the auto attacking for me when im not attacking. Guess id have to be a sorcerer to understand. But isnt that kind of the point of sorcerers? Burst damage? Long cool down and burst damage. I mean...id like to be able to kill short fight mobs as fast as a wizard but I cant oh well...long fights I can really shine though and I can usually take out 5 or 6 mobs just as fast as i can do 1 or 2 but every class has its pros and cons i guess right?

I've never been much of a number cruncher on MMOs... I play a class I think is fun and often theyre gimped but I dont care cause I dont sit there measuring my DPS and comparing it to everyone else...try it some time its fun! Its almost like...playing a game ya know?

Yimway · 01-06-2009, 01:38 PM

Nerphon wrote:

Well im only level 63 so far but my conjuror usually has more than enough spells to cast to keep me busy, granted I dont always want to use all of them as much as some but I can even spam my fast nuke pretty efficiently without using anything else and still be busy without using much power at all.

Right...

And you understand there is a spell recovery delay built in that is a forced pause between each spell cast. It isn't much, like .25s but it is a delay.

And you realize that if you have autoattack on and in range, that if the weapon is 'available' to swing when the recovery delay fires that you'll get a free swing in between casts that will not slow your casting down one bit but will add additional dps / proc's for you?

Now, if you had an aa line that let you hit auto attack from 10 meters lets say, and another ability that increased you're to-hit chance by a base %, you'd start to see some serious portion of your dps from 'melee' that happens from 'free' swings between casts. Which in fact, some of your mage counterparts already have. Others have special combat attacks they can use WHILE casting a spell providing they are in range.

You shouldn't ignore melee just cause you're a caster.

Illine · 01-06-2009, 02:01 PM

as a mage, in groups or raid you chain cast spells and You try to reduce your casting reuse timersto cast more often. As a coercer I never stop casting in a fight unless I move or talk. Then what would be the point of having a crossbow?

you could, but it's not like in D&D where you have limited spells per day so you can't spam them in one fight. Here, it's mana based, so as long as you have mana you cast. If you don't have mana, you're useless.

bows for a mage in EQ2 would be just for fun, not for dps.

liveja · 01-06-2009, 02:20 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

You shouldn't ignore melee just cause you're a caster.

Sure, if you're in a group. When I'm soloing, I don't want to be anywhere near melee range.

However, we're talking about ranged weapons here, not melee. I can't see any point whatsoever to ranged weapons, because I'm already casting at range, & I'm not going to stop casting just to get a few measly, largely unskilled shots off.

As others have said, Mages with crossbows makes perfect sense in D&D or other games where you only have a limited amount of "spells per day" you can cast. With EQ2, it's pointless, because you can cast any spell you want as many times as you have the mana to power it.

Yimway · 01-06-2009, 02:20 PM

Illine@Storms wrote:

as a mage, in groups or raid you chain cast spells and You try to reduce your casting reuse timersto cast more often. As a coercer I never stop casting in a fight unless I move or talk. Then what would be the point of having a crossbow?

My coercer parses 6-8k on VP trash as an alt. Around 12% of that dps is attributed to autoattack going off while doing the same things you're doing to reduce casting and reuse times. In fact, I never stop spamming spells.

That doesn't change the fact that autoattack still triggers between those spell casts if it is available, no mater how fast I click spells, there is SOME recovery period and if there is ANY recovery period an autoattack swing will fire if it is up. When you've got group/raid buffs going with 100% proc rates on melee attacks, why in the world would you not position in the fight close enough to get the free swings and additional procs?

The OP I believe was asking for a ranged attack method of getting those autoattack swings mainly because of how combersome melee positioning is as a caster.

I know i find having to toggle walk mode on and off repeatedly to adjust melee positioning while keeping my spam cast going is a bit akin to oldschool song weaving. Impossible? Hardly. A fun task to have to do repeatedly? Not remotely.

Valdaglerion · 01-06-2009, 06:22 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

[SNIP]
The OP I believe was asking for a ranged attack method of getting those autoattack swings mainly because of how combersome melee positioning is as a caster.
[SNIP]

Precisely. Casters are ranged DPS. Repositioning to melee to gain auto attack is cumbersome and in many cases unwise. In longer fights where mana can at times become a problem this would be a nice addition as well. The scout DPS due to auto attack is ludicrous comparitively. Given the NERF bat SOE likes to use, I would not become a proponent for anyone being hit with it, instead I merely suggested we be given the ability to use currently unused slots to gain a ranged auto attack to play into the mage fight style.

tantric · 01-06-2009, 06:30 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Nerphon wrote:
You shouldn't ignore melee just cause you're a caster.

I agree that in certain situations this is advisable. However as a Wizard, I basicly Play with Fire in a gas soaked paper dress. Being in range to melee more times than not puts me at risk of getting hit by Aoe, Refect or Damage shields. Net result is I need to stop smelling urine off the floor and mix rebuffing in with popping power tricks and tring to get back into the cast order. Net result is a major loss of DPS. So for the most part I stay in the rear with the gear and Lob in the Arty. I do dash in to drop forge of ro or time it so I can be in range for Fission to strike and Bail out before the next AoE hits.

I Know you are saying to yourself Thats what healers are for but trust me More often than Not it's a one shot and I'm down.

Yimway · 01-06-2009, 06:50 PM

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:

Precisely. Casters are ranged DPS. Repositioning to melee to gain auto attack is cumbersome and in many cases unwise. In longer fights where mana can at times become a problem this would be a nice addition as well. The scout DPS due to auto attack is ludicrous comparitively. Given the NERF bat SOE likes to use, I would not become a proponent for anyone being hit with it, instead I merely suggested we be given the ability to use currently unused slots to gain a ranged auto attack to play into the mage fight style.

Problem is, these are not 'unused' slots. Sure, you probably don't have anything in your ammo slot, but there isn't much as far as stat increasing items for that slot. To use ranged autoattack, you'd have to sacrafice one of your 2 symbols for that ranged weapon.

I'd prefer an aa path in the basic mage tree that allowed you to add 20% autoattack range per rank, 5 ranks. That I believe will get your autoattack from your primary weapon out to 10m, far enough to avoid many short range barrage, but not so far that you can simply ignore other hazards.

Regarding the other post about the wizard being too squishy to be in melee range... I doubt my coercer is any less squishy. There are some mobs / zones that I stay range, but 99% of the content in game I'll go in on rear/flank and melee while casting. I might add a piece or two of dispersion gear for some areas, but certainly not going to nerf my output unless I absolutely must.

Lethe5683 · 01-06-2009, 09:23 PM

If they do increase mage dps with some item it sure better not be equippable by enchanters.

tantric · 01-06-2009, 10:04 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:
Regarding the other post about the wizard being too squishy to be in melee range... I doubt my coercer is any less squishy. There are some mobs / zones that I stay range, but 99% of the content in game I'll go in on rear/flank and melee while casting. I might add a piece or two of dispersion gear for some areas, but certainly not going to nerf my output unless I absolutely must.

Coercers are no less squshie than Wizards, But I fear you do not suffer the effects from Burst damage. 25-40k single spell damage tends to turn the mobs heads, If I am in his reach he just sharpend my heels and uses me as a tent stake and it's over before any being has a chance to react. If I'm at range I can detect the shift and Pop Bewilderment, concussive and Blip and shoot a quick Prayer that the Tank's rescue is up..lol Besides even with my Epic and my Crushing maxed @ 400 the melee damage is a drop in the ocean.

simpwrx02 · 01-07-2009, 12:02 AM

tantric wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:
Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:
Regarding the other post about the wizard being too squishy to be in melee range... I doubt my coercer is any less squishy. There are some mobs / zones that I stay range, but 99% of the content in game I'll go in on rear/flank and melee while casting. I might add a piece or two of dispersion gear for some areas, but certainly not going to nerf my output unless I absolutely must.
Coercers are no less squshie than Wizards, But I fear you do not suffer the effects from Burst damage. 25-40k single spell damage tends to turn the mobs heads, If I am in his reach he just sharpend my heels and uses me as a tent stake and it's over before any being has a chance to react. If I'm at range I can detect the shift and Pop Bewilderment, concussive and Blip and shoot a quick Prayer that the Tank's rescue is up..lol Besides even with my Epic and my Crushing maxed @ 400 the melee damage is a drop in the ocean.

Also what makes coercers less squishy is the fact they are normally in the MT group and have ~4k+ more health than other mages do simply from group buffs. Health is still one of the best resists/mitigaton devices out there and 50% more health will deffinately increase survivability.

Yimway · 01-07-2009, 11:48 AM

tantric wrote:

If I'm at range I can detect the shift and Pop Bewilderment, concussive and Blip and shoot a quick Prayer that the Tank's rescue is up..lol Besides even with my Epic and my Crushing maxed @ 400 the melee damage is a drop in the ocean.

It's far more about the proc's from melee damage than the hit itself. Looking at logs, there is on most swings 2 proc's going off in addition to the melee swing itself. You talk about staying at range so you have enough reaction time to blip/concussive. My advice is to stop passive targeting actuall /assist tankname and fire these when the target switches off the MT. Beyond that, add a piece of dispersion gear to give you a 'free hit' to get these off with. And lastly, standing at range means you've just pealed that target OUT of rescue taunt range of the MT, again not helping your chances for survival.

I still contend ignoring melee attack is just ignoring dps potential, but perhaps if you truely have no melee proc's available to you the free damage isn't worth your gamble. I just find generally there are more and more proc's being made available on melee only.

Illine · 01-07-2009, 02:09 PM

They want us to range? then why not make mage staves with a range?

like you get a poison staff, each time you swing you deal a bit of poison damage to the mob with a range of 25 m or 20m. that way it's more a mage range type of attack, we don't use bows, we use a magical staff.

it would be even more obvious. When I see my mythical, eye of the siren, I don't undrestand how it can deal as much melee damage when it looks so fragile. it would be more obvious to deal mental damages. Mage staves are used to chanel the power of the mage, it's not a weapon. if you want a weapon you should use a boo.

but anyway, let things how they are right now. As a mage I don't care about physical damage. I know it can improve my dps a bit, but it doesn't feel right. If i want to melee dps I take a melee class.

SOE did things that way. But if we get bows, scouts will also complain and will get something then we will and so on.

in this game, mages a just mages. we don't know how to kick nor how to use a bow, even with 1200 int. that's it.

01-05-2009, 12:55 AM	#31
Gisallo Server: Lucan DLere Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,910	Lethe5683 wrote: Well autoattack is very overpowered. But autoattack needs to be nerfed, mages don't need to get ranged attacks. Oh yeah so lets nerf the one thing that makes some classes ALMOST the T1 dps they should be (namely rangers). Would you like to please explain to me HOW autoattack itself is OP? Not "well my class..." or "their class..." but actual hard numbers and parses that show that Autoattack dependant classes with similar tiered gear, positive group make up etc. are somehow blowing away the casters. Does it make some classes harder to play because they have to time Autoattacks more than others? Yes, but in so far as the damage its not an issue. Nerf Autoattack and you will effectively KILL classes because we know that SOE is not going to up the damage on a ranger's ranged CA's to make up the difference and around 70-75% of their dps is based off their autoattack (as only one example). Right now there is arguably a minor imbalance, which also arguably effects Summoners more than most caster classes because of resists, but even in reading this thread there is far from a concensus even among the casters as to whether this really is a problem, simply an annoyance or even a complete non-issue. __________________

01-05-2009, 01:38 AM	#32
Noaani Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 6,077	Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote: Oh yeah so lets nerf the one thing that makes some classes ALMOST the T1 dps they should be (namely rangers). Would you like to please explain to me HOW autoattack itself is OP? Not "well my class..." or "their class..." but actual hard numbers and parses that show that Autoattack dependant classes with similar tiered gear, positive group make up etc. are somehow blowing away the casters. A well geared ranger in the right group is the only person that should be able to beat a MT group assassin on the parse with any regularity. They are able to parse so high due to having haste, DA and ranged crit capped, thus getting 28 - 16k auto attack hits in every 4 seconds or so. Add procs to that (such as offensive stance and poisons) and rangers rangers get ~65 - 70% of their DPS from auto attack and the procs it fires. Auto attack is OP because it the scaling of buffs that only affect auto attack as well as the much higher damage rating on mythical weapons have caused it to deal a higher amount of damage in proportion to what it was doing earlier in the game. Auto attack is not OP until you are mythical equipped. __________________ The superior man knows what is right.* The inferior man knows what will sell. Confucius

01-05-2009, 02:09 AM	#33
Pins General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,040	Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote: Lethe5683 wrote: Well autoattack is very overpowered. But autoattack needs to be nerfed, mages don't need to get ranged attacks. Oh yeah so lets nerf the one thing that makes some classes ALMOST the T1 dps they should be (namely rangers). Would you like to please explain to me HOW autoattack itself is OP? Not "well my class..." or "their class..." but actual hard numbers and parses that show that Autoattack dependant classes with similar tiered gear, positive group make up etc. are somehow blowing away the casters. Because nerfing auto attack without buffing CAs to compensate is exactly what they would do..... Autoattack damage has been spiraling out of control since EoF, CAs barely mean anything for most weapon-based classes, yet you don't see that as a problem? Then you are very ignorant. __________________ Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Dissolution on Nektulos Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Confirmed on Unrest

01-05-2009, 11:37 AM	#34
Gisallo Server: Lucan DLere Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,910	Pinski wrote: Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote: Lethe5683 wrote: Well autoattack is very overpowered. But autoattack needs to be nerfed, mages don't need to get ranged attacks. Oh yeah so lets nerf the one thing that makes some classes ALMOST the T1 dps they should be (namely rangers). Would you like to please explain to me HOW autoattack itself is OP? Not "well my class..." or "their class..." but actual hard numbers and parses that show that Autoattack dependant classes with similar tiered gear, positive group make up etc. are somehow blowing away the casters. Because nerfing auto attack without buffing CAs to compensate is exactly what they would do..... Autoattack damage has been spiraling out of control since EoF, CAs barely mean anything for most weapon-based classes, yet you don't see that as a problem? Then you are very ignorant. I see it as a problem believe me. I just LOVE sitting in a raid on my ranger and being a little bot behind my computer waiting to hear ACT go DING before I fire my next CA. Yeah that makes this game so gosh darn fun.... NOT But I also KNOW that they would not buff CA's. How? When they went to fix the arrow mechanic they effectively nerfed ranged attacks for all the tiers prior to t8. Did they up the CA's to match it? No they did not. If they did not do it here why would they elsewhere? This game has never been one to nerf something and give you compensation in return...ever. Also as has been noted, the AA problem really isn't a problem untyil you are in mythical land. I think it safe to say 1-5% of the population has mythicals. Do you change a mechanic that will mess up the game for 95% of the pop simply because the minority at the highest end percieve a problem? Especially when this means altering and thus trying to rebalance one of the core mechanics of the game? I would say it makes no business sense messing with a core mechanic, which could potentially cause a bigger problem, when it really only effects such a minority. I mean seriously when you look at non-mythical raid and group parses casters are doing fine for the most part if they know what they are doing. When you look at mythical parses some types of casters are doing fine, it appears Summoners are the main issue. Summoners however have ALWAYS had issues and have for sometime been seen as the red headed step children among the casters. Trying to nerf a core mechanic is not the way to fix a specific classes problem though. There are plenty of little buffs you could give to casters that would accomplish the same thing. I just hate it when the first thing anyone says is BIG NERF!!!! when a series of small buffs would likely accomplish the same thing __________________

01-05-2009, 11:43 AM	#35
Noaani Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 6,077	Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote: This game has never been one to nerf something and give you compensation in return...ever. That is because when they directly nerf a class ability, it is because that class is overpowered. Its common sense to most, but if they remove something from an overpowered class, and then give them something in return, we still end up with an overpowered class. The best example of your statement here being outright WRONG was the recient fix to Overloaded Heal. It was counting anyone in the group as a potential to trigger its proc on a group heal, but a group heal should have only counted as a single proc. When the code was written for this to work the way it should, and was implemented on all Overloaded Heal gear, the proc rate of the effect was increased to compensate. __________________ The superior man knows what is right. The inferior man knows what will sell. Confucius

01-05-2009, 02:03 PM	#36
Zin`Car General Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Neriak - Third Gate Posts: 612	Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote: Seriously, mages should be able to use a crossbow, short bow or throwing knives. Seriously, some people need to be given both a common sense test as well as an intelligence test before being allowed to create a toon. Sure, they can buy the software, install it, even pay for the account... but if you can't pass both exams, you simply get to stare at the login screen. __________________ The problem with humanity is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

01-05-2009, 03:31 PM	#37
tantric Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 35	Actually as a Wizard you have a spell in your AA line that acts as a ranged melee attack. What I would Like to see is items to put in that vacant ammo box that add stats. All other classes have bags that fit in that slot that have stats on them. I currently have a single Deathfist burning arrow in there because it adds +1 str. Every other class in the game has that slot availiable to them for Stat increases. Perhaps a bag to hold Caltrops or magic dust or something. At the very least allow us to place one of the tradeskill raws bags there. It's a totaly worthless spot as it currently stands. Just my 2 coppers

01-05-2009, 04:40 PM	#38
Gisallo Server: Lucan DLere Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,910	Noaani wrote: Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote: This game has never been one to nerf something and give you compensation in return...ever. That is because when they directly nerf a class ability, it is because that class is overpowered. Its common sense to most, but if they remove something from an overpowered class, and then give them something in return, we still end up with an overpowered class. The best example of your statement here being outright WRONG was the recient fix to Overloaded Heal. It was counting anyone in the group as a potential to trigger its proc on a group heal, but a group heal should have only counted as a single proc. When the code was written for this to work the way it should, and was implemented on all Overloaded Heal gear, the proc rate of the effect was increased to compensate. Now for the sake of argument I will temporarily say there is a problem, I think the jury is still clearly out on this though as I continue. In the example you provided we are talking about gear, something that is very easy to do as here we are talking about itemization. Cut and paste a fix a fix across different gear, not to hard. This is a far cry from messing with a core game mechanic. I actually had to reread your post be sure I was looking at an apples and oranges comparison, an ideed I was. If there is a fix needed messing with Autoattack is NOT the way to do it. A minimum of 12 classes are tied to the Autoattack mechanic for a large portion of their dps, aggro management, whatever. If you include melee speced healers then you are looking at at least 14. Even if they did decide to change the mechanic do you actually think that they will go and design, test and then implement changes for 12-14 different classes in order to accomodate a change to a basic game mechanic? Heck no. I've been looking carefully at parses lately, groups and raids. I see differences between classes yeah, but these can be put down to what kind of group they were in more often than not. If all things are equal (player skill, gear, buffage etc) I really haven't seen that much in the way of differences lately. Do specifc classes have issues? Yes, but I do not see anything that says there is a problem for casters in general that would lead to a change in central mechanics to the game rather than changes to specific classes (whether it be buffing some casters or their gear or nerfing some scouts and their gear). __________________

01-05-2009, 06:36 PM	#39
liveja General Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends Posts: 4,793	tantric wrote: What I would Like to see is items to put in that vacant ammo box that add stats. All other classes have bags that fit in that slot that have stats on them. I currently have a single Deathfist burning arrow in there because it adds +1 str. This suggestion I endorse heartily ... I hate having useless inventory slots. __________________

01-05-2009, 06:49 PM	#40
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	I would fully endorse more mages getting aa lines that increase auto-attack effectiveness and/or range. When I play my mage, I'm certainly not 'ranged' as others here suggest. I'm up on the mob with auto-attack on so that I'm getting free dps swings between my spell casts, any mage that doesn't is just ignoring free dps. I can sympathize with the OP's desire to have those auto swings with more range. As if the mob keeps repositioning, staying in autoattack range while not interupting the constant stream of casting is combersome. For those that don't know, shift-r for walk mode and if you have decent focus you can move around and not interupt yourself. With lower focus, you'll need to 'crouch' as well, but you can find a movement rate to adjust position for autoattack swings without slowing down your spell casting. It's just annoying is all. __________________

01-05-2009, 09:40 PM	#41
Necrotherian Server: Najena Guild: Forgotten Abyss Rank: Member Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 144	Flaye@Mistmoore wrote: tantric wrote: What I would Like to see is items to put in that vacant ammo box that add stats. All other classes have bags that fit in that slot that have stats on them. I currently have a single Deathfist burning arrow in there because it adds +1 str. This suggestion I endorse heartily ... I hate having useless inventory slots. That is basically what I was suggesting on page 2, but it got buried in all the "My DPS is better than yours" chatter.

01-05-2009, 10:39 PM	#42
Noaani Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 6,077	tantric wrote: Every other class in the game has that slot availiable to them for Stat increases. Perhaps a bag to hold Caltrops or magic dust or something. At the very least allow us to place one of the tradeskill raws bags there. It's a totaly worthless spot as it currently stands. What stat increasing items are there for the ammo slot other than deathfist arrows? __________________ The superior man knows what is right. The inferior man knows what will sell. Confucius

01-06-2009, 01:34 AM	#43
Nerphon Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 51	Well im only level 63 so far but my conjuror usually has more than enough spells to cast to keep me busy, granted I dont always want to use all of them as much as some but I can even spam my fast nuke pretty efficiently without using anything else and still be busy without using much power at all. Plus I got a pet to do the auto attacking for me when im not attacking. Guess id have to be a sorcerer to understand. But isnt that kind of the point of sorcerers? Burst damage? Long cool down and burst damage. I mean...id like to be able to kill short fight mobs as fast as a wizard but I cant oh well...long fights I can really shine though and I can usually take out 5 or 6 mobs just as fast as i can do 1 or 2 but every class has its pros and cons i guess right? I've never been much of a number cruncher on MMOs... I play a class I think is fun and often theyre gimped but I dont care cause I dont sit there measuring my DPS and comparing it to everyone else...try it some time its fun! Its almost like...playing a game ya know?

01-06-2009, 01:38 PM	#44
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Nerphon wrote: Well im only level 63 so far but my conjuror usually has more than enough spells to cast to keep me busy, granted I dont always want to use all of them as much as some but I can even spam my fast nuke pretty efficiently without using anything else and still be busy without using much power at all. Right... And you understand there is a spell recovery delay built in that is a forced pause between each spell cast. It isn't much, like .25s but it is a delay. And you realize that if you have autoattack on and in range, that if the weapon is 'available' to swing when the recovery delay fires that you'll get a free swing in between casts that will not slow your casting down one bit but will add additional dps / proc's for you? Now, if you had an aa line that let you hit auto attack from 10 meters lets say, and another ability that increased you're to-hit chance by a base %, you'd start to see some serious portion of your dps from 'melee' that happens from 'free' swings between casts. Which in fact, some of your mage counterparts already have. Others have special combat attacks they can use WHILE casting a spell providing they are in range. You shouldn't ignore melee just cause you're a caster. __________________

01-06-2009, 02:01 PM	#45
Illine Server: Storms Guild: Apocalypse Rank: Honorifique Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: storms Posts: 870	as a mage, in groups or raid you chain cast spells and You try to reduce your casting reuse timersto cast more often. As a coercer I never stop casting in a fight unless I move or talk. Then what would be the point of having a crossbow? you could, but it's not like in D&D where you have limited spells per day so you can't spam them in one fight. Here, it's mana based, so as long as you have mana you cast. If you don't have mana, you're useless. bows for a mage in EQ2 would be just for fun, not for dps.

01-06-2009, 02:20 PM	#46
liveja General Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends Posts: 4,793	Atan@Unrest wrote: You shouldn't ignore melee just cause you're a caster. Sure, if you're in a group. When I'm soloing, I don't want to be anywhere near melee range. However, we're talking about ranged weapons here, not melee. I can't see any point whatsoever to ranged weapons, because I'm already casting at range, & I'm not going to stop casting just to get a few measly, largely unskilled shots off. As others have said, Mages with crossbows makes perfect sense in D&D or other games where you only have a limited amount of "spells per day" you can cast. With EQ2, it's pointless, because you can cast any spell you want as many times as you have the mana to power it. __________________

01-06-2009, 02:20 PM	#47
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Illine@Storms wrote: as a mage, in groups or raid you chain cast spells and You try to reduce your casting reuse timersto cast more often. As a coercer I never stop casting in a fight unless I move or talk. Then what would be the point of having a crossbow? My coercer parses 6-8k on VP trash as an alt. Around 12% of that dps is attributed to autoattack going off while doing the same things you're doing to reduce casting and reuse times. In fact, I never stop spamming spells. That doesn't change the fact that autoattack still triggers between those spell casts if it is available, no mater how fast I click spells, there is SOME recovery period and if there is ANY recovery period an autoattack swing will fire if it is up. When you've got group/raid buffs going with 100% proc rates on melee attacks, why in the world would you not position in the fight close enough to get the free swings and additional procs? The OP I believe was asking for a ranged attack method of getting those autoattack swings mainly because of how combersome melee positioning is as a caster. I know i find having to toggle walk mode on and off repeatedly to adjust melee positioning while keeping my spam cast going is a bit akin to oldschool song weaving. Impossible? Hardly. A fun task to have to do repeatedly? Not remotely. __________________

01-06-2009, 06:22 PM	#48
Valdaglerion Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,870	Atan@Unrest wrote: [SNIP] The OP I believe was asking for a ranged attack method of getting those autoattack swings mainly because of how combersome melee positioning is as a caster. [SNIP] Precisely. Casters are ranged DPS. Repositioning to melee to gain auto attack is cumbersome and in many cases unwise. In longer fights where mana can at times become a problem this would be a nice addition as well. The scout DPS due to auto attack is ludicrous comparitively. Given the NERF bat SOE likes to use, I would not become a proponent for anyone being hit with it, instead I merely suggested we be given the ability to use currently unused slots to gain a ranged auto attack to play into the mage fight style.

01-06-2009, 06:30 PM	#49
tantric Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 35	Atan@Unrest wrote: Nerphon wrote: You shouldn't ignore melee just cause you're a caster. I agree that in certain situations this is advisable. However as a Wizard, I basicly Play with Fire in a gas soaked paper dress. Being in range to melee more times than not puts me at risk of getting hit by Aoe, Refect or Damage shields. Net result is I need to stop smelling urine off the floor and mix rebuffing in with popping power tricks and tring to get back into the cast order. Net result is a major loss of DPS. So for the most part I stay in the rear with the gear and Lob in the Arty. I do dash in to drop forge of ro or time it so I can be in range for Fission to strike and Bail out before the next AoE hits. I Know you are saying to yourself Thats what healers are for but trust me More often than Not it's a one shot and I'm down.

01-06-2009, 06:50 PM	#50
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote: Precisely. Casters are ranged DPS. Repositioning to melee to gain auto attack is cumbersome and in many cases unwise. In longer fights where mana can at times become a problem this would be a nice addition as well. The scout DPS due to auto attack is ludicrous comparitively. Given the NERF bat SOE likes to use, I would not become a proponent for anyone being hit with it, instead I merely suggested we be given the ability to use currently unused slots to gain a ranged auto attack to play into the mage fight style. Problem is, these are not 'unused' slots. Sure, you probably don't have anything in your ammo slot, but there isn't much as far as stat increasing items for that slot. To use ranged autoattack, you'd have to sacrafice one of your 2 symbols for that ranged weapon. I'd prefer an aa path in the basic mage tree that allowed you to add 20% autoattack range per rank, 5 ranks. That I believe will get your autoattack from your primary weapon out to 10m, far enough to avoid many short range barrage, but not so far that you can simply ignore other hazards. Regarding the other post about the wizard being too squishy to be in melee range... I doubt my coercer is any less squishy. There are some mobs / zones that I stay range, but 99% of the content in game I'll go in on rear/flank and melee while casting. I might add a piece or two of dispersion gear for some areas, but certainly not going to nerf my output unless I absolutely must. __________________

01-06-2009, 09:23 PM	#51
Lethe5683 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,351	If they do increase mage dps with some item it sure better not be equippable by enchanters.

01-06-2009, 10:04 PM	#52
tantric Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 35	Atan@Unrest wrote: Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote: Regarding the other post about the wizard being too squishy to be in melee range... I doubt my coercer is any less squishy. There are some mobs / zones that I stay range, but 99% of the content in game I'll go in on rear/flank and melee while casting. I might add a piece or two of dispersion gear for some areas, but certainly not going to nerf my output unless I absolutely must. Coercers are no less squshie than Wizards, But I fear you do not suffer the effects from Burst damage. 25-40k single spell damage tends to turn the mobs heads, If I am in his reach he just sharpend my heels and uses me as a tent stake and it's over before any being has a chance to react. If I'm at range I can detect the shift and Pop Bewilderment, concussive and Blip and shoot a quick Prayer that the Tank's rescue is up..lol Besides even with my Epic and my Crushing maxed @ 400 the melee damage is a drop in the ocean.

01-07-2009, 12:02 AM	#53
simpwrx02 Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 919	tantric wrote: Atan@Unrest wrote: Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote: Regarding the other post about the wizard being too squishy to be in melee range... I doubt my coercer is any less squishy. There are some mobs / zones that I stay range, but 99% of the content in game I'll go in on rear/flank and melee while casting. I might add a piece or two of dispersion gear for some areas, but certainly not going to nerf my output unless I absolutely must. Coercers are no less squshie than Wizards, But I fear you do not suffer the effects from Burst damage. 25-40k single spell damage tends to turn the mobs heads, If I am in his reach he just sharpend my heels and uses me as a tent stake and it's over before any being has a chance to react. If I'm at range I can detect the shift and Pop Bewilderment, concussive and Blip and shoot a quick Prayer that the Tank's rescue is up..lol Besides even with my Epic and my Crushing maxed @ 400 the melee damage is a drop in the ocean. Also what makes coercers less squishy is the fact they are normally in the MT group and have ~4k+ more health than other mages do simply from group buffs. Health is still one of the best resists/mitigaton devices out there and 50% more health will deffinately increase survivability.

01-07-2009, 11:48 AM	#54
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	tantric wrote: If I'm at range I can detect the shift and Pop Bewilderment, concussive and Blip and shoot a quick Prayer that the Tank's rescue is up..lol Besides even with my Epic and my Crushing maxed @ 400 the melee damage is a drop in the ocean. It's far more about the proc's from melee damage than the hit itself. Looking at logs, there is on most swings 2 proc's going off in addition to the melee swing itself. You talk about staying at range so you have enough reaction time to blip/concussive. My advice is to stop passive targeting actuall /assist tankname and fire these when the target switches off the MT. Beyond that, add a piece of dispersion gear to give you a 'free hit' to get these off with. And lastly, standing at range means you've just pealed that target OUT of rescue taunt range of the MT, again not helping your chances for survival. I still contend ignoring melee attack is just ignoring dps potential, but perhaps if you truely have no melee proc's available to you the free damage isn't worth your gamble. I just find generally there are more and more proc's being made available on melee only. __________________

01-07-2009, 02:09 PM	#55
Illine Server: Storms Guild: Apocalypse Rank: Honorifique Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: storms Posts: 870	They want us to range? then why not make mage staves with a range? like you get a poison staff, each time you swing you deal a bit of poison damage to the mob with a range of 25 m or 20m. that way it's more a mage range type of attack, we don't use bows, we use a magical staff. it would be even more obvious. When I see my mythical, eye of the siren, I don't undrestand how it can deal as much melee damage when it looks so fragile. it would be more obvious to deal mental damages. Mage staves are used to chanel the power of the mage, it's not a weapon. if you want a weapon you should use a boo. but anyway, let things how they are right now. As a mage I don't care about physical damage. I know it can improve my dps a bit, but it doesn't feel right. If i want to melee dps I take a melee class. SOE did things that way. But if we get bows, scouts will also complain and will get something then we will and so on. in this game, mages a just mages. we don't know how to kick nor how to use a bow, even with 1200 int. that's it.