Regardless Of What Most Say, Fury Kicks @ss - Page 2

Bad_Mojo · 01-17-2005, 10:16 PM

AUxero wrote:

Friend of mine and I did a test (hes a 25 Fury and im a 25 Warlock)

I could consistently solo green mobs, occasionally blue if root held and all went well. Problem is root would not hold long enough on higher level mobs so I would get beat down and multiple recasts of root deplenishses power. And yes all spells were adept 1 or better.

So we are talking several levels below 25.

My fury friend could consistently kill red solo mobs up to level 30 with little risk.

Now this was a direct comparison and now we are approaching 30 it hasnt changed. So you can tell me whatever you like about Fury's not being powerful, but I know the truth.

In fact, I was so convinced that I have now created a druid on his way to Fury and my Warlock is back in the library until he figures out how to be competitive.

Well, a couple of things here...

One, he is a better tank than you - The caster classes are the absolute worst at mitigating damage.

Second, when he does get hit, he can heal himself - The caster classes are the absolute worst at healing themselves.

With those things aside, I see you mention absolutely nothing about how much damage each of you were doing, and I'm going to guess you left that out because you were outdamaging him and therefore it didn't further your case. Please, if you are going to come in and compare classes, do it the right way and present all the information.

EDIT: I thought I should mention that Warlocks and other DPS casters are considered broken as they rarely outdamage the scout classes and sometimes even a well equipped tank. That said, just because your friend solo's better than your broken class, doesn't mean he is overpowered, it means you should be posting over in the several "fix wizards" threads going on in the 'spells and abilities' forum as opposed to making flawed comparison's in here.

Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on 01-17-2005 12:20 PM

Katx · 01-18-2005, 01:02 AM

AUxero wrote:

Friend of mine and I did a test (hes a 25 Fury and im a 25 Warlock)

I could consistently solo green mobs, occasionally blue if root held and all went well. Problem is root would not hold long enough on higher level mobs so I would get beat down and multiple recasts of root deplenishses power. And yes all spells were adept 1 or better.

So we are talking several levels below 25.

My fury friend could consistently kill red solo mobs up to level 30 with little risk.

Now this was a direct comparison and now we are approaching 30 it hasnt changed. So you can tell me whatever you like about Fury's not being powerful, but I know the truth.

In fact, I was so convinced that I have now created a druid on his way to Fury and my Warlock is back in the library until he figures out how to be competitive.

Again, this is about soloing. No one who is posting issues with healing scalability is talking about soloing. We want to perform our archetype-central role of healing well. It's not only Furies suffering from this, it is all healers. It's not even the healing archetype that is suffring in this regard, it is all pure casters. Their damage output doesn't scale well to higher levels either.

If all you are concerned about is soloing, fine. But, again, posting and saying that we solo well is totally not the point many people are trying to get across. Our higher level healing abilities are borked. Side effect buffs on many of our spells appear to be broken. Some of the spells outright do not work. No matter how well any of us can solo, these are core issues that need to be addressed!

Ee · 01-18-2005, 01:02 AM

Mage damage is only considered broken post level 40 - or so most of the threads that I have read imply (and it will surely be fixed). If anyone re-rolls a class on the ability to solo higher level mobs they are truely setting themselves up for a disappointment. In a group, the Warlock is a pure dps while the Fury is a healing class. Is this what you want to do? Because post level 30 the large majority of your exp will come from groups.

Axterix · 01-18-2005, 05:43 AM

Twizz wrote:

Not sure they need to be adjusted, solo xp isn't that great and I think there is a penalty for killing red mobs. Most efficient stuff to solo seem to be white-orange mobs.

EL mobs are pretty widely considered to be easy to kill. The xp for a red doesn't matter. What does is that the mobs are easy. If you can kill the reds, then how easy are the whites? Sooner or later they'll adjust them upwards.

ren · 01-18-2005, 02:36 PM

Whelp... it would seem as though we can still pack a bit of a punch afterall =X Tried this a few hours ago:

http://www.unknown-insanity.com/uploader/userfiles/wiesz/MammothVFury01.JPG

http://www.unknown-insanity.com/uploader/userfiles/wiesz/MammothVFury02.JPG

Wooly Mammoth -- 48 ^ ^, Group

Log summary:

Time: 6 minutes and 45 seconds.

Mammoth

DPS: 55.89

DMG: 22,637

Me

DPS: 34.79

DMG: 14,091

Overall Summary:

I'm still kinda boggled that I pulled it off -- I don't even know how I did so well, frankly. I did have to use Feral Pulse and Sylvan Touch (the save me 15min heals) as well as Toxic Quills for a bit more damage and it did take me almost 7 minutes, but it still shows that a Fury has redeeming qualities. I would like to say that this really doesn't change my view on many of our issues, though.

This particular fight was a pure battle of attrition -- I tested it once while dotting and doing HO's and I got close, but I couldn't pull it off. I then re-absorbed my shard, rebuffed, and decided to just do a set of buffs and use the rest to heal and keep my debuffs on.

I still don't think that this absolves SoE from looking at our heals or other spells because I still can't keep up in groups on raids/etc when mobs do normal hits for 1k and aoe for 3-4k+ and chain nuke for 1-2k or more and I'm sure that when more hit 50, this will be addressed. Three minute buffsx2-3 on each melee is ridiculous too as are a lot of my other points, but there is this to look at, at least. Also, whereas my debuffs could chip away at the mobs melee damage, I can't really protect against 3-4K AoEs and 2k nukes, nor can I effecitvely heal them.

Well, I am still a bit baffled, heh... and I was kinda awestruck that I could do this and a little bit more that it goes against what I strongly believe, but I couldn't keep it from you all.

Message Edited by rensu on 01-18-2005 02:33 AM

wan · 01-18-2005, 10:54 PM

I could live with the 3 min timers on the procs if they added another optional line to the group bar showing what current buffs YOU have on another group member (albeit non-conc ones so as not to make it unwieldly looking). This would at least aleviate some of the guess work involved in keeping 2-3 3min procs on more than 2 players haha. Or even if they added another menu altogether where it shows group members and you can expand them by clicking the + (like the quest menu) to see what buffs you currently have running on them. That would make it more reasonable imho -otherwise its just frustrating and stressful

ren · 01-18-2005, 11:02 PM

My problem with 3min buffs isn't that I don't know what is on who, it is that I am buffing again right as I stop doing 1 buff round. Three minutes isn't nearly enough. When people move around, I don't even bother buffing them, too. The buff range is so short that if they move just a little bit, it will tell me that they are out of range. The only way I could live with them is if they were three minutes long and group, or longer duration and more mana cost (or same, whatever =p) Also, they need to increase buff range to the same as "maintain" range.

wan · 01-18-2005, 11:18 PM

Rensu,

We should get a thread stickied suggesting an idea similar to mine wherein all classes get an additional expandable group menu that you can determine what buffs you have on whom within group. I don't understand how they can make some of the game's ideas/interfaces so intuitive and convenient but leave other facets (ie. short timed buffing) so archaic and impossibly frustrating.

edit: I agree fully that if you want to keep the procs on, you are casting them more or less any time you arent currently healing. I don't know what their logic is concerning this.

Message Edited by wan01 on 01-18-2005 10:24 AM

Shat in the H · 01-19-2005, 12:15 AM

You gave up a warlock to play a Fury, your mistake. Our guild has been killing raid mobs in Everfrost + Lavastorm, we have no fury's in our guild, as we have no need for them. However we would gladly take another warlock, as their damage migitation actually makes a difference.

Ver · 01-19-2005, 12:39 AM

Yes, it's true. In an XP group or solo, we are valuble and can contribute very well.

However, in a raid setting there is no point to having a Fury. I'm dissapointed that I did not start a Warden instead.

Verax - 47 Fury - Unrest

Katx · 01-19-2005, 01:36 AM

I just read through the Warden spell list... I guess this is a stupid question, but what is it they have that makes them better on a large scale raid than a Fury? The only thing I see that is much different is the 49.6 spell Tranquilizing Spores.

Sorry for the possible ignorant question.... and thanks.

ren · 01-19-2005, 01:40 AM

Nature's Caress (level 29!), which at Master 1 is an 875 heal +1100hp in 6 or 9 seconds for 117 mana. Hierophantic Genesis at Ap2 is 550-650hps (varies per tick) every 3 seconds for 42 mana every 3 seconds.

Also they have our same regen, the 168/tick. On top of that, they have buffs that can proc HoT's on people when they are hit.... On top of that, they have the same spells that I use (efflo/regrowth/etc). Also, I parsed a Warden and it appears that they also get a spell that gives Predatory Salve proc... so our Salve heal line belongs to them too.

I think there's more, as well...

Message Edited by rensu on 01-18-2005 12:43 PM

Katx · 01-19-2005, 02:00 AM

Blah. I seem to have a talent for picking the borked classes in EverQuest (of all permutations).

Ver · 01-19-2005, 02:11 AM

In addition to those noted by Rensu they get:

A Master 1 spell that heals for 1500 + 256 a tick for 4 ticks

Multiple augmentations that boost reistances for heat and cold

Evac

Slow: Augmentation which grants an ally the chance to replenish Health over-time whenever successfully attacked during combat in addition to slowing the attack speed of the enemy.

It's kind of depressing.

I've already started saving Warden spells and picked up another account. I'll be bringing him to 50 ASAP to replace my Fury. SMILEY

Verax

ren · 01-19-2005, 02:22 AM

Yeah -- I'm even more depressed to see my wasting money buying AD3 40+ spells and seeing other people just get Master1 versions of grey, grey spells that heal more than mine and have a better ratio AND cost them half as much. They need to really redo the whole Ap1-4, AD1-4, M1-4 deal.... Sages/Alchs/Jewelers and their ap3/4 and ad3 upgrades are almost completely useless when compared to very common, easily available, and cheaper alternatives from drops.

ren · 01-19-2005, 02:27 AM

Ah also, worth mentioning -- is that they get +Wisdom and +power regen buffs... but we get +hp regen buffs instead. Neither work in combat, but it doesn't really take a genious to figure out which one is far superior to the other.

AQT70 · 01-19-2005, 02:54 AM

Wow this is depressing, I always knew warden's were better healers. In a post that says Furies rock, which I expected to help support my decision to Fury, I find myself seriously considering rerolling and I am just about 43.

I wanted to be a druid and was really excited that all healers were "suppose" to be equal. Funny part is I chose Fury cuz I thought the name was cooler. *sigh*

01-17-2005, 10:16 PM	#31
Bad_Mojo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 341	AUxero wrote: Friend of mine and I did a test (hes a 25 Fury and im a 25 Warlock) I could consistently solo green mobs, occasionally blue if root held and all went well. Problem is root would not hold long enough on higher level mobs so I would get beat down and multiple recasts of root deplenishses power. And yes all spells were adept 1 or better. So we are talking several levels below 25. My fury friend could consistently kill red solo mobs up to level 30 with little risk. Now this was a direct comparison and now we are approaching 30 it hasnt changed. So you can tell me whatever you like about Fury's not being powerful, but I know the truth. In fact, I was so convinced that I have now created a druid on his way to Fury and my Warlock is back in the library until he figures out how to be competitive. Well, a couple of things here... One, he is a better tank than you - The caster classes are the absolute worst at mitigating damage. Second, when he does get hit, he can heal himself - The caster classes are the absolute worst at healing themselves. With those things aside, I see you mention absolutely nothing about how much damage each of you were doing, and I'm going to guess you left that out because you were outdamaging him and therefore it didn't further your case. Please, if you are going to come in and compare classes, do it the right way and present all the information. EDIT: I thought I should mention that Warlocks and other DPS casters are considered broken as they rarely outdamage the scout classes and sometimes even a well equipped tank. That said, just because your friend solo's better than your broken class, doesn't mean he is overpowered, it means you should be posting over in the several "fix wizards" threads going on in the 'spells and abilities' forum as opposed to making flawed comparison's in here. Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on 01-17-2005 12:20 PM

01-18-2005, 01:02 AM	#32
Katx General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 201	AUxero wrote: Friend of mine and I did a test (hes a 25 Fury and im a 25 Warlock) I could consistently solo green mobs, occasionally blue if root held and all went well. Problem is root would not hold long enough on higher level mobs so I would get beat down and multiple recasts of root deplenishses power. And yes all spells were adept 1 or better. So we are talking several levels below 25. My fury friend could consistently kill red solo mobs up to level 30 with little risk. Now this was a direct comparison and now we are approaching 30 it hasnt changed. So you can tell me whatever you like about Fury's not being powerful, but I know the truth. In fact, I was so convinced that I have now created a druid on his way to Fury and my Warlock is back in the library until he figures out how to be competitive. Again, this is about soloing. No one who is posting issues with healing scalability is talking about soloing. We want to perform our archetype-central role of healing well. It's not only Furies suffering from this, it is all healers. It's not even the healing archetype that is suffring in this regard, it is all pure casters. Their damage output doesn't scale well to higher levels either. If all you are concerned about is soloing, fine. But, again, posting and saying that we solo well is totally not the point many people are trying to get across. Our higher level healing abilities are borked. Side effect buffs on many of our spells appear to be broken. Some of the spells outright do not work. No matter how well any of us can solo, these are core issues that need to be addressed! __________________ Ximeni - 70 Fury Eithne - 70 Swashbuckler Troops of Doom - Master Officer Guk

01-18-2005, 05:43 AM	#34
Axterix Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 183	Twizz wrote: Not sure they need to be adjusted, solo xp isn't that great and I think there is a penalty for killing red mobs. Most efficient stuff to solo seem to be white-orange mobs. EL mobs are pretty widely considered to be easy to kill. The xp for a red doesn't matter. What does is that the mobs are easy. If you can kill the reds, then how easy are the whites? Sooner or later they'll adjust them upwards.

01-19-2005, 01:36 AM	#41
Katx General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 201	I just read through the Warden spell list... I guess this is a stupid question, but what is it they have that makes them better on a large scale raid than a Fury? The only thing I see that is much different is the 49.6 spell Tranquilizing Spores. Sorry for the possible ignorant question.... and thanks. __________________ Ximeni - 70 Fury Eithne - 70 Swashbuckler Troops of Doom - Master Officer Guk

01-19-2005, 02:00 AM	#43
Katx General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 201	Blah. I seem to have a talent for picking the borked classes in EverQuest (of all permutations). __________________ Ximeni - 70 Fury Eithne - 70 Swashbuckler Troops of Doom - Master Officer Guk

01-18-2005, 01:02 AM	#33
Ee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 43	Mage damage is only considered broken post level 40 - or so most of the threads that I have read imply (and it will surely be fixed). If anyone re-rolls a class on the ability to solo higher level mobs they are truely setting themselves up for a disappointment. In a group, the Warlock is a pure dps while the Fury is a healing class. Is this what you want to do? Because post level 30 the large majority of your exp will come from groups.

01-18-2005, 02:36 PM	#35
ren Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 409	Whelp... it would seem as though we can still pack a bit of a punch afterall =X Tried this a few hours ago: http://www.unknown-insanity.com/uploader/userfiles/wiesz/MammothVFury01.JPG http://www.unknown-insanity.com/uploader/userfiles/wiesz/MammothVFury02.JPG Wooly Mammoth -- 48 ^ ^, Group Log summary: Time: 6 minutes and 45 seconds. Mammoth DPS: 55.89 DMG: 22,637 Me DPS: 34.79 DMG: 14,091 Overall Summary: I'm still kinda boggled that I pulled it off -- I don't even know how I did so well, frankly. I did have to use Feral Pulse and Sylvan Touch (the save me 15min heals) as well as Toxic Quills for a bit more damage and it did take me almost 7 minutes, but it still shows that a Fury has redeeming qualities. I would like to say that this really doesn't change my view on many of our issues, though. This particular fight was a pure battle of attrition -- I tested it once while dotting and doing HO's and I got close, but I couldn't pull it off. I then re-absorbed my shard, rebuffed, and decided to just do a set of buffs and use the rest to heal and keep my debuffs on. I still don't think that this absolves SoE from looking at our heals or other spells because I still can't keep up in groups on raids/etc when mobs do normal hits for 1k and aoe for 3-4k+ and chain nuke for 1-2k or more and I'm sure that when more hit 50, this will be addressed. Three minute buffsx2-3 on each melee is ridiculous too as are a lot of my other points, but there is this to look at, at least. Also, whereas my debuffs could chip away at the mobs melee damage, I can't really protect against 3-4K AoEs and 2k nukes, nor can I effecitvely heal them. Well, I am still a bit baffled, heh... and I was kinda awestruck that I could do this and a little bit more that it goes against what I strongly believe, but I couldn't keep it from you all. Message Edited by rensu on 01-18-2005 02:33 AM

01-18-2005, 10:54 PM	#36
wan Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 46	I could live with the 3 min timers on the procs if they added another optional line to the group bar showing what current buffs YOU have on another group member (albeit non-conc ones so as not to make it unwieldly looking). This would at least aleviate some of the guess work involved in keeping 2-3 3min procs on more than 2 players haha. Or even if they added another menu altogether where it shows group members and you can expand them by clicking the + (like the quest menu) to see what buffs you currently have running on them. That would make it more reasonable imho -otherwise its just frustrating and stressful

01-18-2005, 11:02 PM	#37
ren Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 409	My problem with 3min buffs isn't that I don't know what is on who, it is that I am buffing again right as I stop doing 1 buff round. Three minutes isn't nearly enough. When people move around, I don't even bother buffing them, too. The buff range is so short that if they move just a little bit, it will tell me that they are out of range. The only way I could live with them is if they were three minutes long and group, or longer duration and more mana cost (or same, whatever =p) Also, they need to increase buff range to the same as "maintain" range.

01-18-2005, 11:18 PM	#38
wan Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 46	Rensu, We should get a thread stickied suggesting an idea similar to mine wherein all classes get an additional expandable group menu that you can determine what buffs you have on whom within group. I don't understand how they can make some of the game's ideas/interfaces so intuitive and convenient but leave other facets (ie. short timed buffing) so archaic and impossibly frustrating. edit: I agree fully that if you want to keep the procs on, you are casting them more or less any time you arent currently healing. I don't know what their logic is concerning this. Message Edited by wan01 on 01-18-2005 10:24 AM

01-19-2005, 12:15 AM	#39
Shat in the H Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 21	You gave up a warlock to play a Fury, your mistake. Our guild has been killing raid mobs in Everfrost + Lavastorm, we have no fury's in our guild, as we have no need for them. However we would gladly take another warlock, as their damage migitation actually makes a difference.

01-19-2005, 12:39 AM	#40
Ver Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 172	Yes, it's true. In an XP group or solo, we are valuble and can contribute very well. However, in a raid setting there is no point to having a Fury. I'm dissapointed that I did not start a Warden instead. Verax - 47 Fury - Unrest

01-19-2005, 01:40 AM	#42
ren Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 409	Nature's Caress (level 29!), which at Master 1 is an 875 heal +1100hp in 6 or 9 seconds for 117 mana. Hierophantic Genesis at Ap2 is 550-650hps (varies per tick) every 3 seconds for 42 mana every 3 seconds. Also they have our same regen, the 168/tick. On top of that, they have buffs that can proc HoT's on people when they are hit.... On top of that, they have the same spells that I use (efflo/regrowth/etc). Also, I parsed a Warden and it appears that they also get a spell that gives Predatory Salve proc... so our Salve heal line belongs to them too. I think there's more, as well... Message Edited by rensu on 01-18-2005 12:43 PM

01-19-2005, 02:11 AM	#44
Ver Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 172	In addition to those noted by Rensu they get: A Master 1 spell that heals for 1500 + 256 a tick for 4 ticks Multiple augmentations that boost reistances for heat and cold Evac Slow: Augmentation which grants an ally the chance to replenish Health over-time whenever successfully attacked during combat in addition to slowing the attack speed of the enemy. It's kind of depressing. I've already started saving Warden spells and picked up another account. I'll be bringing him to 50 ASAP to replace my Fury. Verax

01-19-2005, 02:22 AM	#45
ren Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 409	Yeah -- I'm even more depressed to see my wasting money buying AD3 40+ spells and seeing other people just get Master1 versions of grey, grey spells that heal more than mine and have a better ratio AND cost them half as much. They need to really redo the whole Ap1-4, AD1-4, M1-4 deal.... Sages/Alchs/Jewelers and their ap3/4 and ad3 upgrades are almost completely useless when compared to very common, easily available, and cheaper alternatives from drops.

01-19-2005, 02:27 AM	#46
ren Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 409	Ah also, worth mentioning -- is that they get +Wisdom and +power regen buffs... but we get +hp regen buffs instead. Neither work in combat, but it doesn't really take a genious to figure out which one is far superior to the other.

01-19-2005, 02:54 AM	#47
AQT70 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	Wow this is depressing, I always knew warden's were better healers. In a post that says Furies rock, which I expected to help support my decision to Fury, I find myself seriously considering rerolling and I am just about 43. I wanted to be a druid and was really excited that all healers were "suppose" to be equal. Funny part is I chose Fury cuz I thought the name was cooler. sigh __________________ ___________________ Pyper - Wood Elf Fury Mistmoore