Shocked and Dismayed on DoF Launch Day

[Timaarit]

I still need to test these changes more. As it is, it took me (lvl 50 templar) now more time to kill a lvl 46 with one down arrow than it used to take me to kill a lvl 46 solo with the old system. Only thing I noticed was that it did less damage to me than previously. On another combat I engaged a lvl 46 with no arrows, took me 4 times to kill that compared to earlier lvl 46 solos. Amount of damage I took was about the same. A lvl 46 with one up arrow took me the same amount of time to kill as the one with no arrow but I took a lot more damage. My short experience made an impression that I do a lot less damage than previously but also take less damage. In all the time I need to kill something has increased and I must say that I dont like that part, it already took me a long time to kill anything while soloing. But I do need more testing on healing part, though those solo mobs were about the same as before when it comes to healing myself.

[Selene1]

and plus Glory of Combat now takes a Con. spot.

True. However: with 2 group buffs, costing only 1 conc each (unlessed i missed somtething, which, wouldnt surprise me ) that leaves 3 spots to choose between the hp buff and goc (preatorate no longer costs a conc buff). For me this means 1 hp buff on the mt and two goc's out there, which is double the amount of free healing and i have experienced this to be quite great, takes some stress off the healers

Message Edited by Selene1 on 09-14-2005 12:13 PM

[X-R]

I too went into Harclaves and died...Solo'd first mob fine, but then as I pulled the second mob, my phone rang and it was my parents.  Looked up and I had accidently stepped a bit far and went off the edge of the cliff...

 

The only issue I have so far is that I cannot find a skin that I like.  :smileytongue:

[Fivel]

I'm relatively content with the changes so far, my attitude is more "wait and see how it all pans out" Last night me and some friends went to do RoV.  Which we have done many time prior to the patch.  The group was as follows. As for Master II, I picked Both Bestowals. 37 Palladin 33 Scout ( I think swash ) 34 Conjurer 33 templar ( myself ) We mostly spent our time grinding clay guardians.  Tank ran most of the time in offesive stance.    Here are my initial thoughts. The clay guardians are tripple?? up heroics in the range of 30-33. 1.  Mobs seem to die quite a bit faster ( maybe they have less HP... I'm not sure, but we would kill the golems at least 25% faster than before ) 2.  Mobs don't hit as hard. 3.  Reactives are smaller, but they sip mana.  They are so efficient.  If the reactive can keep up, you can cast a 1000 of them. 4.  Reactive heals seem to stay up longer... for whatever reason I'm not sure, but only having one reactive timer seemed to be sufficient, as compared to before.  Pre-DoF I absolutely had to have supplicants praryer and bestowal on seperate timers or there was no chance of keeping the tank standing.  Now having one reactive is enough, although it takes a different timing to guage when it will drop. 5.  Mana regen seemed to be a bit slower ( maybe this is because I have more power? ) 6.  I seemingly can cast more direct heals than before ( maybe because of increased power pool, maybe because of efficiency ) all I know is that I can actually afford to burn a few direct heals on a guy who overnuked and not worry too much about it effecting the outcome of the encounter. 7.  I've seen a relatively decent bump in my DPS, my nukes hit for slighly more, the master strikes for golems and skeletons do enourmous damage considering its a priest casting them. 8.  The Mark of princes and related spells proc ALL THE TIME.  If you find your reactives aren't quite keeping up this helps suppliment it some.  It also serves as a very effective way to heal the group now. 9.  The attonement line saw a sizable upgrade.  If you are cranking through smaller mobs and killing them one after another, this is just an amazing way to keep the group healed for little mana. 10.  Mobs that are green/blue seem to yield a bit more experience than they would have previously. 11.  Mobs grey out later than they used to. This is my observation from one night of grouping and basically grinding on one type of mob. We killed these mobs for about 2 hours.  I gained a whopping 80% of a level.  This was with full vitality and the new adventurer experience bonus.  Even our level 37 tank dinged 38 and was still earning good experience killing level 30-33 mobs.  If this results in killing lower level mobs but the experience reward is still as good, I have no complaints. My guess is that doing even con or higher heroic mobs would quickly become overwhelming, but only 2 nights earlier we wiped on a lvl 34 double up which we were able to do tonight.  I think over all it will take some getting used to, I've read that our reactives will now heal even if a ward is on a person which makes it very viable for grouping with a shaman type ( I haven't confirmed this ) I don't subscribe to the gloom and doom way of looking at things, group tactics will change, group makeups will change, but I can say that our specific group was able to kill blue heroic mobs faster than what we could before.

Message Edited by Fivel on 09-14-2005 06:40 AM

[Selene1]

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Fivel wrote:

5.  Mana regen seemed to be a bit slower ( maybe this is because I have more power? )

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unfortunatly no, in combat power regen has been nerfed. Before it used to be 1% of your max power pool. For me with a 3k self buffed pool thats 30 points per tick. Now its 1 point for every ten levels, or 5 points per tick at my level 50. But as you say, heals are more efficient, and i havent run into problems yet (fighting lvl 55-56 triple ups in a group of 4, not all of which at 50).

[Brutus2]

I play a 50 Templar and have been in DoF beta for the past month.  At first I got killed left and right and was [Removed for Content].  Eventually I learned new strategies and started using spells that I hadn't even bothered  to put on my hotbar in live (like the prostrate stun).

Here are some tips just off the top of my head:

1. Power regen has been drastically reduced for everyone.  This makes the two power regen character traits extremley important.  They both give +5 in-combat regen (for 10 total if you take both) and they help BIG time.  In live I always took the +2.5% power pool, with those I go oop quick.  With the 2 regen traits (and GEB) I can keep healing much longer and dont stay OOP for long.  Add Mannastone in to the mix and I can keep my power up for a long time and therefore heal more.

2. Con colors and group size (x2, x3, etc) is for real now.  Pre-DoF a good group of six would have no trouble with a x2 mob.  Thats not the case anymore.  In beta I have been with solid, experienced groups of six, with good gear and spell upgrades and we always got are [Removed for Content] kicked by x2 mobs.  Another time I joined a x3 raid mob.  We had about 15 players (just a few short of three groups), the first time we lost but there was some confusion.  We tried a second time and had no trouble, the MT held aggro and was never in any danger.  So, regardless of what you could "take" before, if it says x2 or x3 now then thats what you need.

3. You have to use all your spells, not just reactives.  Mark of Kings has a 20% chance to proc a heal regen, and it procs often on top of that it debuffs divine damage.  Also, remember to use your stun.  It has a short recast time and stops the mob from doing any damage for awhile even if it is taking damage so its great to solo with as well.  You can also use Harmony againts group mobs.  Some people think this is just an emergency spell to get aggro off you but it also pacifies the entire group mob.  It only breaks when they take damage.  So, assuming your group is all assisting the MT, you can pacify the rest of the mobs and keep them from pounding on the MT.  I also absolutely LOVE Atoning Fate.  It has really low power and heals your entire group for a good bit.  Use it just before each mob is about to die to get a good cheap heal in when fighting a group.  Soothe is also handy sometimes when you are in an area with high risk of adds.  See that mob walking right at your group? Soothe it and he will leave you alone, no add! 

Overall there is no doubt we have been nerfed.  They took lots of things away and gave very, very little in return but for the most part I think we have stayed the same in solo ability and group healing.  Just takes some time to get used to.

[Truffor]

Actually I fear something. It seems that Templars are quite good PvP wise. I just hope people won't come crying "NERF NERF NERF" and get our class even more nerfed than it is...

I don't like PvP, if it gets us deeper into abysses, I will get mad.

Message Edited by Truffor on 09-14-2005 07:37 AM

[X-R]

Nice post Brutus.  Thanks for the tips and advice!

[Truffor]

Yes, we are quite as good as before concerning solo. After reading fearsome posts of templar owned by blue mobs, I went to Harclave. At first, I was not sure to win against a white con with no arrows mob, but I ended up killing a yellow and a white at the same time (with no arrows, had an add few secs after attacking first one). I ended with 20-25% power and had no stress while fighting. Reactives are cheap, power wise. My stuff is ebon, adept 3 for most of my toolset, not fabled wonderland ubberness. We just have to find a way to heal in teams against hard mobs... And yes, Mark of king is a MUST-HAVE for solo.

[Sinnester]

I played for seven hours hours last night in an experience group with no major difficulties. 

My reactives still heal just as good as they did before.  You must realize that everything has been nerfed.  You don't need the high heals like you had before.  You don't need the mitigation like before.  My direct single cast heal is in fact "amazing".  I see templars still being part of the main tank group just for the "heavy healing".  We have so many different forms of healing that other healer types don't have...Start using them!

The one problem that I saw was with cures.  The main tank was usually the only one that needed curing and the single target cures were not curing.   The single target cures need to be strengthed. 

To be honest with you, the new spell colors annoy me *shrug*.

[AnonymeDiscret]

I understand the new system of armor but still :

Before DOF, self buffed : 57-58% Mitigation, 50% avoidance

After DOF, self buffed : 35% mitigation, 15% avoidance.

 

It is absolutly normal that (wearing plate armor) our avoidance is very low IF our mitigation is high. After all, what kind of armor has better mitigation than plate armor ? None.

Of course, tanks now have buffs to compensate this lack of mitigation on plate armor, but we Clerics do not have any trick of the sort, meaning we are screwed both on avoidance AND mitigation.

[Fivel]

    -----     I understand the new system of armor but still :

    Before DOF, self buffed : 57-58% Mitigation, 50% avoidance

    After DOF, self buffed : 35% mitigation, 15% avoidance.     ----

So your argument is...  "I understand that comparing these numbers means nothing after the revamp... but look at these numbers"  ?

[AnonymeDiscret]

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Fivel wrote:
    -----
    So your argument is...  "I understand that comparing these numbers means nothing after the revamp... but look at these numbers"  ?

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Your comment is stupid : we are talking about percentages. So it means something smarthead...

[Fivel]

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AnonymeDiscret wrote:

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Fivel wrote:    -----    So your argument is...  "I understand that comparing these numbers means nothing after the revamp... but look at these numbers"  ?

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Your comment is stupid : we are talking about percentages. So it means something smarthead...

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Its not stupid.  Its actually quite simple.  I'm just trying to say that those numbers on their own mean very little. If mob A originally would have hit for 100 points of damage, you had 75% mitigation, you would receive 25 points of damage. Now assuming Post DoF has scaled down mobs. Mob A hits your for 50 points of damage and you have 50% mitigation, you would receive 25 points of damage. Strangely, Mob A still hits you for the same amount of damage. All I'm saying is its a complex system of numbers that can't easily be summarized.  Its impossible to really know the impacts of all the changes till after we play it out a bit.  And previous mitigation versus current mitigation means  nothing if lots of other percentage and random based calculations that contribute to the overal amount of imcoming damage have also changed.

[AnonymeDiscret]

I know what you meant (and sorry if I have been a bite impolite - I know I have) but a lvl 50 mob doing 100 points of damage will hit me for more than before DoF. Granted, it will not be the same mob but a harder one.

The thing is, both our mitigation and avoidance are lower, so 100 points of damage taken from a lvl 50 mob before and after DoF are not - by far - gonna have the same result on my HP bar.

[Joos]

48 Inquisitor here,

If it makes you feel any better SoE broke our reactives and consolidated our heal timers.

I came here to see how you all are doing because we are the evil version of you :smileywink:; well any who, we will now be competing for worst healer with you all.

The good news is they fixed some of our spells, the bad news is we suck as healers :smileymad:

All I can say is I wish we had a turbo button for healing.

[wurtin]

Not a Templar but curious of everyones reaction.  One thing I noticed is the first several people in the thread hadn't played yet and were just counting numbers.  Almost everyone lost power and HP's not just Templars.  Mages lost the ability to Parry.  That lowered my avoidance by 14 %.  NPC's lost their mitigation to attacks as well.  Everything was adjusted.

 

One tricky thing about fighting in a group right now (good players or not), is everyone has to relearn their class so if one person is doing something "wrong", the whole group can suffer.  For example, if a necro uses his defensive pet stance, his pet will out taunt the tank of the group.  The pet has 0 mitigation so it gets torn up by the mob and the healer can't keep it alive.  After the mob kills the pet, it's off to bouncy land and wreaking general havoc in the group.

 

Everyone needs to relearn their group mechanics because it's different.  Tanks take longer to gain firm aggro, Everyone else has relearn the aggro line so they dont cross it.  I think it's to the point where tanks will have to call for the assist on exp mobs when it really wasn't necessary before.  Everybody needs to tighten up their playstyle.  Adjusting to the changes will take a little time for everyone. 

 

Last thing, Personally I think harclave is a bad test ground.  That depends on a mega buff that was designed with the old combat system.  I think your results will not be a good representation of what's out there.  But hey, I think the place is as boring as it gets so what do I know. 

[Scil]

Well on that heals share the same timer thing i didnt realize they made it so could use lower versions of spells with higher ones again (originally you could then a month or 2 after launch you were stuck using just the highest) however this change effects every priests so its not a direct templar nerf.

next off added effects on heals once again removed from every class just templars had one of the better effects associated with their healing power to increase mit, so once again not a direct nerf against templars but probably hurts themmore than most classes.

heal values on a temp is definately for more than an inquisitor just casts slower longer recast and costs a bit more power however inquis has to spam heal to keep up with templars single heals (cant compare druid or shaman instant heals at the moment not enough 1st hand info) so overall different yet equal.

point being made as an inquisitor with very comparable healing to that of a templar im having no problem keeping groups alive against mobs up to 54 as only healer several of my templar buddies are not having any problems with it either long as every heal class can heal arent you performing your role and if you can do your job then whats there to complain about