Epic Weapon changes in GU47.

[Lord Hackenslash]

Although there are some positive changes to the SK epic I would like to point out one major disparity for this being an end game tank weapon. The Weapon has absolutley no defensive quality whatsoever. Please review the 6 tanking epics and see if this is an issue you might consider fixing.Brief recap of tank epic defensive qualitiesGuardian:    Procs a 10% damage reduction.                     Has 8% riposte (buckler line bonus with tower shields)                   Has 5% shield effectiveness bonus                   Has 10 defense                   Has Immune to RipostePaladin:        10% damage reduction                     10% of damage taken converted to heals                   (I was unable to find a scrrenshot of the mythical to confirm any other defensive features)Berzerker:  Has 5% shield effectiveness                   Has 10 defenseBruiser:      Reduces all physical damage taken by 10%                   +5% minimum deflection chance                   +10 deflectionMonk:         Increases mitigation of Leather armor to be equivalent of Chain armor (no hard number on this effect)                   +5% minimum deflection chance                    +8 deflectionShadowknight: No damage reduction                         No Shield modifier                         No defense                          No Parry                         No heal effect                         No riposte immunity                         No bonus Riposte %I hope this clarifies this issue with the Shadowknight epic. I understand my information is not perfect and i had left out the click effects of the mythicals as they are used for short durations and have relatively long refresh times. Thank you.                        

[Xenobe]

Melina@Splitpaw wrote:

Monk:         Increases mitigation of Leather armor to be equivalent of Chain armor (no hard number on this effect)                   +5% minimum deflection chance                    +18 deflection                        

Dunno where you got 18 deflection from but the monk epic has 8 and the chain effect equals to about 600 mit which is really meh.

[samejima]

CawtiDawnflower wrote:

Razieh@Unrest wrote:

With that being said the 6% spell crit to heal crit an alright change but I personally already sit at 90%+ heal crit on raids. The addition of 8% spell damage brings up the question what is this for? Defilers will hardly ever be put in a mage dps group, unless the raid leader is letting us have some fun. So then really its only for us and the enchanter(if we have one in the group) just seems really useless.

Whoa... that's something I missed.  Does the defiler epic proc really affect the group?  Ie. if a defiler casts a group heal is there a chance to give that 8% bonus to heals (and proposed spell damage) to any of the people healed?  The way I read the proc it only affects the defiler, and not the targets of the heal.Otherwise, that buff proc (with spell damage) would be a very nice counterpoint to the mystic double attack buff.  And there certainly would be a case for using a defiler in a mage group, if you had a second talented one in your guild.  Already, I think a properly geared defiler would do a great job of healing mages this would make them an excellent fit for the group.Does the proc really work that way, though?  Or is it self-only?

Yes the proc is group wide.

[Noaani]

Elyssa@Najena wrote:

I think the huge white elephant in the room is the fact that templars are so overpowered that their inq counterparts feel [Removed for Content] in comparison. If an inq cannot keep a group healed with all the overloaded heal items out there, not to mention the water sprinklers from SoH, then the problem is between the seat and the keyboard, not the class itself. Inq still bring more buffs to the raid table than druids, and it's only when you try to stack them up against a templar that the class starts to pale in comparison.

Define overpowered.

Templars are better than an inquisitor in the main tank group on a raid, this is a given, is common knowledge, and has been this way since the game launched.

Inquisitors are better than a templar in a non main tank group, this is a given, is common knowledge, and has been this way since the game was launched.

If you are talking about healers for the MT group, then yes, compaired to a templar, an inquisitor pales in comparison.

If you aer talking about a healer for a DPS group, then complired to an inquisitor, a templar pales in comparison.

Seems reasonably balanced to me... different classes, different roles, whats the issue here again?

[Noaani]

Melina@Splitpaw wrote:

Brief recap of tank epic defensive qualities                 

If your going to look at it like that, the guardian epic is the only tank epic that forces the wielder into a specific achievement line in order to gain the benefits. Rather than 8% riposte, it would be more accurate to say the guardian gains the differance in protection and block between virtues guard and a tower shield.

[samejima]

Noaani wrote:

Elyssa@Najena wrote:

I think the huge white elephant in the room is the fact that templars are so overpowered that their inq counterparts feel [Removed for Content] in comparison. If an inq cannot keep a group healed with all the overloaded heal items out there, not to mention the water sprinklers from SoH, then the problem is between the seat and the keyboard, not the class itself. Inq still bring more buffs to the raid table than druids, and it's only when you try to stack them up against a templar that the class starts to pale in comparison.

Define overpowered.

Templars are better than an inquisitor in the main tank group on a raid, this is a given, is common knowledge, and has been this way since the game launched.

Inquisitors are better than a templar in a non main tank group, this is a given, is common knowledge, and has been this way since the game was launched.

If you are talking about healers for the MT group, then yes, compaired to a templar, an inquisitor pales in comparison.

If you aer talking about a healer for a DPS group, then complired to an inquisitor, a templar pales in comparison.

Seems reasonably balanced to me... different classes, different roles, whats the issue here again?

This should be the case though sadly its not. Templars are one of the most overpowered classes and definitely are the most overpowered healer. They are better in a DPS group than an inquisitor and better in a tank group than an inquisitor.

[Mr. Dawki]

Noaani wrote:

Elyssa@Najena wrote:

I think the huge white elephant in the room is the fact that templars are so overpowered that their inq counterparts feel [Removed for Content] in comparison. If an inq cannot keep a group healed with all the overloaded heal items out there, not to mention the water sprinklers from SoH, then the problem is between the seat and the keyboard, not the class itself. Inq still bring more buffs to the raid table than druids, and it's only when you try to stack them up against a templar that the class starts to pale in comparison.

Define overpowered.

Templars are better than an inquisitor in the main tank group on a raid, this is a given, is common knowledge, and has been this way since the game launched.

Inquisitors are better than a templar in a non main tank group, this is a given, is common knowledge, and has been this way since the game was launched.

If you are talking about healers for the MT group, then yes, compaired to a templar, an inquisitor pales in comparison.

If you aer talking about a healer for a DPS group, then complired to an inquisitor, a templar pales in comparison.

Seems reasonably balanced to me... different classes, different roles, whats the issue here again?

DPS mods come from a coercer and dirge. An inquisitor is a healer first meaning they are in game to keep you and the others around you alive. If they cannot do that they do not get a spot on the raid. A templar will keep anyone alive far better than any inquis can ever hope to. A templar will crush any inquisitor on any heal parse. An inquis gives a dps group a small dmg proc and a dps mod, compared with what a templar gives defensivly and inquis still fails. As said before several guilds do not even concider inviting an inquisitor into their ranks because of these reasons. If it were my chioce I would never have one either. To me an inquis is the lowest form of healer, any other healer can do an inquis job better and give more to the raid at the same time.

[AegisCrown]

Aeralik wrote:

Geothe wrote:

A) AAs are all about giving characters choice in how they want to spec themselves.  and with the swashie mythical bonus you FORCE swashies to max out the Str line to be able to make use of their mythical bonus.NO OTHER class is forced to do this (yes, most do that spec anyways.. but that is asside from the point).

B) T-Swipe doesnt stack, So the bonus effect can be removed.

Swashbucklers and Brigands are well known for using swipe.  Any raiding rogue who can obtain a mythical is probably required by the guild to have this skill.  Since the skill is used to lengthen the reuse time of many ae abilities it kinda fits in to the design of the skill by reducing the ae damage done to the raids.  The idea was to give the swashbucklers bonuses to damage, debuffing and hate transfer which is what is done.  The debuff one is just something thats is a bit more unique.Also you can have multiple swipes up on the mob at one time.  Second swipes will disable the reuse time effect but the brigand swipe will not disable the additional damage amount effect.

while this is a small response it doesnt clarify what we want or really defend the decision to not change our mythical.  And while yes traumatic lengthens the the reuse of aoes on a mob, it doesnt not target the damage directly,  flashy strike does as it decreases int.  Also the problem with the DoT proc is that we do not have any other DoTs as a class and we have a mez, if we try to use it we are [Removed for Content] due to it having a dot.  if there is anyway to address out weapon even a little we would be thank ful

[Lord Hackenslash]

Noaani wrote:

Melina@Splitpaw wrote:

Brief recap of tank epic defensive qualities                 

If your going to look at it like that, the guardian epic is the only tank epic that forces the wielder into a specific achievement line in order to gain the benefits. Rather than 8% riposte, it would be more accurate to say the guardian gains the differance in protection and block between virtues guard and a tower shield.

Specificly I wrote "Has 8% riposte (buckler line bonus with tower shields)"Yes the buckler line is required for this bonus. I am not saying anything about their epic other than pointing out the benefits the weapon can give please judge for yourself on the power of the respective epics and how likely a particular class is to use any given AA spec.Thank you.

[LardLord]

Elyssa@Najena wrote:

I think the huge white elephant in the room is the fact that templars are so overpowered that their inq counterparts feel [Removed for Content] in comparison. If an inq cannot keep a group healed with all the overloaded heal items out there, not to mention the water sprinklers from SoH, then the problem is between the seat and the keyboard, not the class itself. Inq still bring more buffs to the raid table than druids, and it's only when you try to stack them up against a templar that the class starts to pale in comparison.

Honestly, Elyssa is probably right.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but most guilds probably run with one of each Druid, one Inquisitor, two Templars, and two or three Shaman (at least one of each type).  In some cases, people just have a Templar where most guilds have their Inquisitor since they hardly lose anything with the switch and they gain better healing/survivability (and sometimes even have a net gain in offensive buffs).  That's what kinda makes us Inquisitors feel [Removed for Content], but if Templars weren't so powerful and versatile, we wouldn't really be in much worse shape than Druids, I guess.  /shrug...just thinking as I type.

Really though, I would just like the Inquisitor mythical to be as good as the Templar one.  Templars get about as much of a benefit to their healing by being able to run an extra Glory proc due to E:Aegolism saving conc slots as we get from our Aftershocks effect (That should tell Templars how worthless Aftershocks is ).  Our stilfe/daze immunity on successful attack proc is completely useless, while their proc has a nice situational use (stun immunity) and something that helps on every fight (cast haste).  This comparison has been made over and over, and yes, I understand the new Inquisitor clicky is going to be awesome on some fights, but it's kinda sad that the only thing the mythical has going for it at all is something that is so situational.

I'm beating a dead horse, I know.  Sorry, heh.

[Sorano]

There are 2 things wrong with the priest classes at the moment in regards to end game raiding. The buff spread is incredibly skewed, making some classes, templars in particular, insanely overpowered, and leaving others, druids and wardens in particular out in the cold. A simple fix to the problem is to remove shield ally from the cleric class and give it to wardens, and remove Blessings from templars and give it to both druid classes.  That will give both druid classes desired buffs where they can slot into an offensive or defensive group, while toning down the templar class.

The other thing wrong with the priests is heal mechanics, which make wards totally overpowered in comparison to other heal types. Heal mechanics need to be reworked and wards have to leak to put it simply. Something along the lines of a ward will only absorb a maximum of 50% of any incoming hit. So a mob hits for 3k damage, a ward will only absorb 1.5k, the rest leaks through. Obviously 50% is an arbitary number, and it would have to be balanced against a number of factors, but for the longterm health of the game, the issue needs to be addressed.

[krrr]

Elyssa@Najena wrote:

There are 2 things wrong with the priest classes at the moment in regards to end game raiding. The buff spread is incredibly skewed, making some classes, templars in particular, insanely overpowered, and leaving others, druids and wardens in particular out in the cold. A simple fix to the problem is to remove shield ally from the cleric class and give it to wardens, and remove Blessings from templars and give it to both druid classes.  That will give both druid classes desired buffs where they can slot into an offensive or defensive group, while toning down the templar class.

The other thing wrong with the priests is heal mechanics, which make wards totally overpowered in comparison to other heal types. Heal mechanics need to be reworked and wards have to leak to put it simply. Something along the lines of a ward will only absorb a maximum of 50% of any incoming hit. So a mob hits for 3k damage, a ward will only absorb 1.5k, the rest leaks through. Obviously 50% is an arbitary number, and it would have to be balanced against a number of factors, but for the longterm health of the game, the issue needs to be addressed.

1: How about buffing druids without nerfing someone else?

2: Lets also dont forget that such change will require revamp of ALL raid encounters. Again, maybe its more productive to fix things without nerfs? For example: making HoTs better will make you happy?

From top of my head: Specific damage DoTs (on top of normal damage) that 100% gets through wards and deals significant damage. Most effective way to heal it will be using HoTs.

Another idea: Make wards act as temporal HP buffs that can be healed. (not realy showing as HP, maybe add another pull that is called "ward"?). But this will call for major encounters revamp again, b/c it will make most of encounters too easy imo.

[Sorano]

If a class is overpowered it needs to be nerfed. You can't buff up other classes to the same level, without severely impacting on game mechanics and trivializing encounters. Templars are at that stage at the moment. They are overpowered in comparison to other healer classes and need to be adjusted accordingly.

The same thing applies to wards. You can't change a HoT to heal damage that is being blocked by a ward, not without trivializing encounters. There is no other way to balance game mechanics other than nerfing how wards currently work.

I won't hold my breath on any of this occurring though. SOE seem to be fairly happy with preserving the status quo and leaving overpowered classes as they are.

[hisawat]

Elyssa@Najena wrote:

There are 2 things wrong with the priest classes at the moment in regards to end game raiding. The buff spread is incredibly skewed, making some classes, templars in particular, insanely overpowered, and leaving others, druids and wardens in particular out in the cold. A simple fix to the problem is to remove shield ally from the cleric class and give it to wardens, and remove Blessings from templars and give it to both druid classes.  That will give both druid classes desired buffs where they can slot into an offensive or defensive group, while toning down the templar class.

The other thing wrong with the priests is heal mechanics, which make wards totally overpowered in comparison to other heal types. Heal mechanics need to be reworked and wards have to leak to put it simply. Something along the lines of a ward will only absorb a maximum of 50% of any incoming hit. So a mob hits for 3k damage, a ward will only absorb 1.5k, the rest leaks through. Obviously 50% is an arbitary number, and it would have to be balanced against a number of factors, but for the longterm health of the game, the issue needs to be addressed.

I know you want to make your class super cool, but you should stop saying nerf other classes.  You should just ask buffing your class instead.  No other class will support your idea.  If you really want to heal like a templar, you should make a templar alt.  I have never expected inquisitors to heal like a templar.  Inquisitor is good for soloing, but templar sucks for it.  Templar is super for group and raid and inq is ok for them.  Most of the inquisitors here just want to make our epic a little better because it sucks so bad now.  You druids can do a lot of things that other healers can't do.  You guys have one of the most powerful spells in the game, Portal.  You guys also have evac/ invisi.  Furthermore, you guys can heal a group much faster and easier than any other healing classes.   Balancing one aspect of the healing mechanics is not fair.  If you want to heal like shaman and templar, you should also think those classes should heal a group and have poprtal spells like druids.

[Sorano]

You obviously don't understand raiding mechanics so there is no point in arguing further with you.

[hisawat]

Elyssa@Najena wrote:

You obviously don't understand raiding mechanics so there is no point in arguing further with you.

Fine, but you obviously don't understand SOE can't balance all classes just for raiding so there is no point in arguing further with you.

[Sorano]

The updates are for mythicals which are acquired during RAIDING. If you don't raid or understand the game mechanics or balance issues involved, don't post on this thread.

[Sorano]

Double post

[hisawat]

Elyssa@Najena wrote:

The updates are for mythicals which are acquired during RAIDING. If you don't raid or understand the game mechanics or balance issues involved, don't post on this thread.

Then you should just talk about epic weapons, not class balancing for RAIDING.  This thread is for EPIC WEAPONS.  It includes not only mythicals, but also fabled version.  If you want to talk about class balancing, you should post in the warden forum and don't post on this thread.

[RogueSpideyChick]

actually...it's about the changes to the MYTHICAL versions of the weapons. mythicals are gotten by raiding & the changes they are doing could possibly help balance the classes in a raid environment. so this ENTIRE thread is about raiding...if u don't raid, then buh-bye

[Oh]

Arica@Kithicor wrote:

 so this ENTIRE thread is about raiding...if u don't raid, then buh-bye

Actually it's about both fabled and mythical, sorry to hurt your feelings but the other folks can also post too.

[RogueSpideyChick]

the changes are being made to the mythicals. read the notes that have been posted about the changes that they are doing. they are all in reference to changes being made to the MYTHICAL versions. if any changes at all are done to the fabled, they will be extremely minute & not really matter because they have no effects at all in comparison to the mythical versions

[hisawat]

Arica@Kithicor wrote:

actually...it's about the changes to the MYTHICAL versions of the weapons. mythicals are gotten by raiding & the changes they are doing could possibly help balance the classes in a raid environment. so this ENTIRE thread is about raiding...if u don't raid, then buh-bye

Yeah a lot of changes to mythical versions, but there are some changes for fabled versions too.  As I wrote before, balancing classes and balancing epic should be separate things.  Otherwise, everyone would have to have mythical to balance classes, which would be unfair to a lot of people.  I agree SOE needs to balance classes, but they should do it without mythical epics.  Oh by the way, I do raid.

[Kyom]

hisawat wrote:

Elyssa@Najena wrote:

The updates are for mythicals which are acquired during RAIDING. If you don't raid or understand the game mechanics or balance issues involved, don't post on this thread.

Then you should just talk about epic weapons, not class balancing for RAIDING.  This thread is for EPIC WEAPONS.  It includes not only mythicals, but also fabled version.  If you want to talk about class balancing, you should post in the warden forum and don't post on this thread.

QFT - you either cry: nerf templar epic, nerf templar overall, or nerf that one plate healer item. Take shield ally away, take blessing away.FFS why the hell don't you make a freaking templar and play one up to 80. See what all the downside are to actually level up one. Yes, at 80 we are quite powerful in a mt group but there are downsides to every class out there. Why can't you get this into your thick head?Also, I stand by my point that the changes to the templar version is to the fabled one not the mythical. Aeralik never mentioned mythical version on that part in the writeup.I also still don't see the freaking point of class envy. Every class helps in raid for the overall survivability in their own way. And if you druids want to whine about how owerpowered templars are then take it to the templar forums and we can show you a few things you guys always nicely overlook while comparing our class to yours...

[Kyom]

Arica@Kithicor wrote:

the changes are being made to the mythicals. read the notes that have been posted about the changes that they are doing. they are all in reference to changes being made to the MYTHICAL versions. if any changes at all are done to the fabled, they will be extremely minute & not really matter because they have no effects at all in comparison to the mythical versions

Where exactly do you base this from? The thread is titled EPIC not MYTHICAL. He explicitely mentions mythical versions in some of the notes but not in others in the overview. This still makes me think that changes are sometimes done to both sometimes only to the mythical version and sometimes only to the fabled (like templar one).I am asking a third time now for Aeralik to please clarify if the changes are for mythical only or not.

[hisawat]

Kandra@Venekor wrote:

hisawat wrote:

Elyssa@Najena wrote:

The updates are for mythicals which are acquired during RAIDING. If you don't raid or understand the game mechanics or balance issues involved, don't post on this thread.

Then you should just talk about epic weapons, not class balancing for RAIDING.  This thread is for EPIC WEAPONS.  It includes not only mythicals, but also fabled version.  If you want to talk about class balancing, you should post in the warden forum and don't post on this thread.

QFT - you either cry: nerf templar epic, nerf templar overall, or nerf that one plate healer item. Take shield ally away, take blessing away.FFS why the hell don't you make a freaking templar and play one up to 80. See what all the downside are to actually level up one. Yes, at 80 we are quite powerful in a mt group but there are downsides to every class out there. Why can't you get this into your thick head?Also, I stand by my point that the changes to the templar version is to the fabled one not the mythical. Aeralik never mentioned mythical version on that part in the writeup.I also still don't see the freaking point of class envy. Every class helps in raid for the overall survivability in their own way. And if you druids want to whine about how owerpowered templars are then take it to the templar forums and we can show you a few things you guys always nicely overlook while comparing our class to yours...

I am not a druid and I didn't cry for nerfing templar at all by the way.

[Kyom]

I think the person I was referring to know who he/she is Sorry for the confusion. I quoted you because I agreed with your part.

[SnAke19]

I can understand the people crying about the templers - to say you the truth our templars are laughing about their second boost through the changes hereif you have one healing class totally overpowered at the moment than that are the templars - sry but thats the truth - if only gamelogg would be changed that avoided dmg would in future be counted to healing in act a templar at the moment would easily heal 2x or 3x the numbers of each other healing class -you can raid without each but not without a templar atmand next to this fact they´ve the fewest problems with any effects @having sanctuary and being stifleimun while other healers are knocked out sometimes about half the timebut after all I´m not calling for a nerve to them because the over all mechanic like its now is working and a change could be more fatal than any balance in between the classes would benefit raiding -thats my point of view - but what could be done is to look that in future times and expansion these differences will be minimized - it couldn´t be that everything depends on one classa start would be to grant immunities and selfcures to all healing classes and not only to some or reduce the stifle/stun amount of some content - there is nothing more annoying for a healer than seeing your group dying being unable to do anything against it

[Tames]

hisawat wrote:

Arica@Kithicor wrote:

actually...it's about the changes to the MYTHICAL versions of the weapons. mythicals are gotten by raiding & the changes they are doing could possibly help balance the classes in a raid environment. so this ENTIRE thread is about raiding...if u don't raid, then buh-bye

Yeah a lot of changes to mythical versions, but there are some changes for fabled versions too.  As I wrote before, balancing classes and balancing epic should be separate things.  Otherwise, everyone would have to have mythical to balance classes, which would be unfair to a lot of people.  I agree SOE needs to balance classes, but they should do it without mythical epics.  Oh by the way, I do raid.

Hmm if you read the first post carefully it refers to some generic changes and others that refer to mythical changes, presumably the non specifically mythical changes apply to both fabled and mythical and the mythical specific changes apply to mythicals only?

The Truth of Marr ( Paladin )

• The delay is now 6 seconds.
• Added a damage proc to the weapon.
• Should now give both spell and combat art damage bonuses

This should apply to both Fabled and Mythical.

Wrath of Nature ( Fury )

• Now gives out damage and heal amount bonuses
• Mythical now improves healing and damage spells based upon a percentage of your wisdom and intelligence respectively.  This has replaced the Savage Feast effect.

The second dot point for Fury only applies to the Mythical and the first to both Fabled and Mythical.

So unless I am corrected then this thread applies to Fabled and Mythical Epics and raiders and non raiders alike?

Certainly the Paladin Fabled can equally gain from more avoidance, as its not used for DPS where 2h are used and not used for tanking as the soulfire gladius is used in preference.

BTW far more people use Fabled Epics and they should not be left out of fixing the Epic problems.

[Verrie77]

Aeralik wrote:

Cudgel of Obviation ( Mystic )

• The mythical version’s Spirit Tap will only trigger by the mystic’s group members.  Also the heal and power bonuses have been reduced.

---

Cudgel of Obviation ( Mystic )

• The mythical version's Spirit Tap will only trigger by the mystic's group members.  Also the heal and power bonuses have been reduced.
• The reusetimer of Sprit Tap has been lowered to 2 min 30 sec. to compensate the lower HP / PWR regen.
• Spirit Tap will not get resisted that easy anymore.
• Now makes Runic Armor raidwide.