PvP changes coming in GU 36

[Amphibia]

Angelyc@Nagafen wrote:

I'm surprised that no one has touched on what really makes predators/rogues unbalanced.  It's the massive DPS combined with TRACK.  They can pick every single fight, and evac away from any fight they don't want to engage in before their enemies get close.  I say let everyone keep what they have EXCEPT either take out PK track or give it to everyone.

Flame away but track as it is is completely overpowered.

That is a class defining ability. Want it? Roll a scout.

[silentpsycho]

CresentBlade wrote:

Ajjantis wrote:

I dont get the whining about Fury or Druid heals in General and noone even mentions powerfull Mystic/Defiler wards.

QFT

I agree with you.

It's because mystic/defiler wards can not be cast in time to make any sort of difference.  In 5 seconds (the cast time of one ward) the fight is usually over.  With the dumb auto recast on interrupt "feature", it can take as long at 15 seconds to fail at getting a single spell off - fight over.  Combine this with any worthwhile or helpful AA ability being tied into a pet that dies if someone sneezes in the wrong direction, defilers are pretty hosed when it comes to pvp.  I guess Mystics get some slightly better AA options's and such, but pretty much in the same boat as far as how effective wards are in PVP.  Also, Fury's and Wardens get something called DPS when combined with solid heals makes them fairly formidable.  If fury dps is all ready getting whacked, I don't think they need to lose healing too.

[Broccoliswo]

CresentBlade wrote:

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

Note to you, the entire point of a scout in a PvP group is to be able to know where others are and the "dangers" around them. If you would like to go out solo on your non-tracking class that is more group oriented, then that is entirely your fault. People like you want to remove every class defining ability and make this a game in which every class has the same abilities, etc. and that's completely ridiculous.

So reducing their damage should not be a problem, they are just around to scout things out not kill stuff, good point

Scouts are also intended to be T1 dps (ranger/assassin), and T2 dps (brig/swash).

[silentpsycho]

Firamas wrote:

The root problem with this entire update is: 1) There wasn't much, if any, imbalance in the first place for GvG (group versus group) PvP. 2) The stated intention of this sweeping change was to slow down fights and encourage people to GvG and use strategy. Do you see how this whole thing just kind of leads itself into a logical corner? There were some minor changes that were needed to make 1v1 PvP more sane (swashies in particular are absolute monsters), but that's easily done by tuning a few CA's here and there.  So, instead: You have a system that is quite balanced for 6v6 PvP, with fights between skilled groups easily lasting 3-5 minutes (under pre-GU36 rules), and then you throw a big sackful of wrenches into the works and expect people to support it? The problem is not the fact that 6v6 PVP doesn't work (it works quite well); the problem is that the current rule set (concerning a variety of things other than class DPS) does not encourage people to form full 6v6 groups.  Change the basic PvP rule set to encourage grouping, don't "tune" classes that for the most part are highly balanced in group PvP. How do you do this?  To start, how about giving a bonus to token drop chance, total status earned, total faction earned, etc, etc if there are 4 or more people in the group.  This is already done with adventure exp in PVE to encourage grouping; it's not hard to program in a scaled 15-50% bonus for PVP kill rewards when in a large group.  (No bonus given for raids.)  Viola!  Right there, you've given people a great reason to go out in a full group of 6 and hunt other full groups, which seems to be the intent of the devs (and the unconscious wish of most players).  You can get creative from there with other rule set changes if you want... but sweeping DPS changes and overall class nerfs aren't going to be well received...

I actually agree with this, but, I have to point out one logical error.  Yes, it encourages people to go out in groups of 6.  However, it does nothing to encourage them to fight other groups of 6.  Getting people to want to go out in large groups is all ready done - its called near certain pvp victory against small groups and solos; and I argue that most people who are successful/titled at pvp are doing this all ready.  For example, I've seen two full groups run across one another a couple of times, with destroyers-generals in each.  They took one look at each other and both ran the other direction.  It wasn't until one group was engaged in a small group ganking that the other one decided to engage.

Since I usually play the role of the token vending machien, I have to ask:  If you play at off times or can't find a full group for other reasons, what are you supposed to do? Sit in the town with your thumb up your anatomy?  Go out and get penalized for playing in "hard mode"?

[tiredang]

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

Note to you, the entire point of a scout in a PvP group is to be able to know where others are and the "dangers" around them. If you would like to go out solo on your non-tracking class that is more group oriented, then that is entirely your fault. People like you want to remove every class defining ability and make this a game in which every class has the same abilities, etc. and that's completely ridiculous.

I'm not the one saying I like to go out solo (I don't like to solo; if I did I would play a solo class), that people should be losing their dps, that people should be losing their in-combat run speed, etc.  If track were really what a rog/pred really only had going for them, there is no way I would feel that other people should get something that warns them.  Track plus high dps is incredibly overpowering.  If it were only the dps, then you'd see more casters with high titles -- and if it were the track, you'd see more bards with high titles.  Truth is, track gives a huge advantage, overpowering, whether or not you'd like to admit it. 

I'm also not saying take out track completely -- but please, being able to track a group, know their approximate levels, or know if they ARE grouped or solo, being able to do massive dps from a distance away or evenat close range and in seconds kill someone and evac away with NO DANGER to themselves IS overpowered.  The reason why most people with high titles are rogs/preds (I'm talking master and overseer and I KNOW there are a few exceptions, I said MOST) is not because the best players choose those classes.  It's because that combination IS a bit too powerful.

[natasha]

Well, if debt xp and AA is changed, my little toons capped in the teens will not be as strong as they are now. I for one enjoy level locking and this will put a huge damper on it as I will level alot faster without debt xp, and not be able to get as many AA points. While I understand there are alot of people who enjoy ganking others, to me the allure of PvP is about competitiveness, and about the challenge of fighting a real player behind their toon, instead of npc mobs. I definitely agree the scout classes and some of the roots need to be balanced a bit for PvP servers. My top two 3 gripes in PvP that I hope will be addressed: 1. Harm Touch. There are way too many Shadowknights that will one hit a player with this spell, seems all classes should have a spell this powerful and not only 2-3 classes in the game. 2. Hook Shot: That a ranger can hook shot a player into the guards and leech fame from it seems like an exploit to me. I think there should be no PvP death or fame from a player who has been snared to a guard. 3. The constant resisting and breaking of roots for all the classes who rely on their roots. I really like that you can get debt xp on the PvP server, and I hope that doesn't really change. Sigh.

[Broccoliswo]

Angelyc@Nagafen wrote:

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

Note to you, the entire point of a scout in a PvP group is to be able to know where others are and the "dangers" around them. If you would like to go out solo on your non-tracking class that is more group oriented, then that is entirely your fault. People like you want to remove every class defining ability and make this a game in which every class has the same abilities, etc. and that's completely ridiculous.

I'm not the one saying I like to go out solo (I don't like to solo; if I did I would play a solo class), that people should be losing their dps, that people should be losing their in-combat run speed, etc.  If track were really what a rog/pred really only had going for them, there is no way I would feel that other people should get something that warns them.  Track plus high dps is incredibly overpowering.  If it were only the dps, then you'd see more casters with high titles -- and if it were the track, you'd see more bards with high titles.  Truth is, track gives a huge advantage, overpowering, whether or not you'd like to admit it. 

I'm also not saying take out track completely -- but please, being able to track a group, know their approximate levels, or know if they ARE grouped or solo, being able to do massive dps from a distance away or evenat close range and in seconds kill someone and evac away with NO DANGER to themselves IS overpowered.  The reason why most people with high titles are rogs/preds (I'm talking master and overseer and I KNOW there are a few exceptions, I said MOST) is not because the best players choose those classes.  It's because that combination IS a bit too powerful.

As stated before, the entire point of a scout is to track opponents and deliver melee T1/T2 dps. It's the definition of their class. As for people of scout classes having the highest titles being related to an absence of skill, explain why there are slayer swashbucklers and general/master ranked tanks? Probably because those people know how to play the game in the setting best suited for their character. Think about it. A large portion of generals and a decent portion of masters are NOT scouts, and there are a lot of dreadnaught casters, as well.

[Broccoliswo]

natashabu wrote:

Well, if debt xp and AA is changed, my little toons capped in the teens will not be as strong as they are now. I for one enjoy level locking and this will put a huge damper on it as I will level alot faster without debt xp, and not be able to get as many AA points. While I understand there are alot of people who enjoy ganking others, to me the allure of PvP is about competitiveness, and about the challenge of fighting a real player behind their toon, instead of npc mobs. I definitely agree the scout classes and some of the roots need to be balanced a bit for PvP servers. My top two 3 gripes in PvP that I hope will be addressed: 1. Harm Touch. There are way too many Shadowknights that will one hit a player with this spell, seems all classes should have a spell this powerful and not only 2-3 classes in the game. 2. Hook Shot: That a ranger can hook shot a player into the guards and leech fame from it seems like an exploit to me. I think there should be no PvP death or fame from a player who has been snared to a guard. 3. The constant resisting and breaking of roots for all the classes who rely on their roots. I really like that you can get debt xp on the PvP server, and I hope that doesn't really change. Sigh.

Here we go with more "lets make all the classes simular/the same" comments. Classes are different for a reason, and chances are whatever class you play has a strength too, be it a high damage spell every 15 minutes or not.

[Luxun]

Honestly I don't see why we needed all these changes. Rangers are fine in t7 or anything lower. From what I see they are even kinda gimped as it is. Only 2 problems with EQ2's pvp system were :

- Spell resists and rouge dps.

Those 2 were the only issues, now I understnd the pvp damage of the few mages like warlocks and wizards should get adjusted because of resist changes, but why the hell go over board and nerf classes like ranger ? (btw before anyone flames me, I play  SK and a brigand not a ranger or anything else)  I totally agree swashies and brigands needed the nerf, but why other classes ? An Assasin is not really overpowered. Sure if someone jumps my SK on their Assasin they can kick my butt ...but that how it is SUPPOSE to be. This is dynamic, now if I see the Assasin first and put a coupleof dots on him ....run around i ncircles if i get stilfed ...you thin kthe assasin will have a easytime killing me ? Or even rangers ...I have even fought rangers that are in 6+ pvp gear and all raid gear ..they are not even close to being overpowered. Do they beat a couple of classes easy ? sure they do ..but live with it. Just like how a mage can eat my SK if they know what they are doing, you don't see me whinnign and yelling for mage nerf.

Bottom line is, this is just going to add more problems to our pvp  ...thats all.

[-Arctura-]

(( i sense a SWG-style downward spiral here with EQ2. Things are just getting more nerfed, and nerfed and nerfed... Like Broccolisword (sp?) said, explain why there are Slayer Swashies and Master Tanks... obviously it all comes down to players skill and their abilities to use the tools at their disposal. PS. IF you remove Assassin's and Ranger's killing abilities, perhaps buff up their defensive abilities before they become completely offense-less and defense-less.

[Mildavyn]

***WARNING***

Huge post incoming!

***WARNING***

stryker268 wrote:

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

  This is just more whining IMO.

  Your log is showing what can happen on an optimal situation for a ranger and you could show the same thing for almost any dps class.  You had 3 procs on 3 attacks and this is far from the norm.  AND YOU GOT AWAY!!  How can you sit there and moan and groan when you didn't even die.  If your class could beat it's way out of a paper bag, once you mezzed the ranger he would have been a dead one. 

  And you sure used alot of stategy in that fight.  You had a building right there by your own admission and you couldn't even get behind it to block the auto-attacks?  Or maybe even closed the distance?  You are complaining about the ranger dps when you clearly had ways of negating it but couldn't figure out how.  Every person that goes up against rangers that is worth their salt in pvp just closes the distance and weathers the storm. Well at close range not really a storm.  More like a shower.

  And why are you only mentioning rangers?   Couldn't an Assassin do the same amount or more damage in that time?  Or a Wizard?  I've seen many, many people die to both of these classes in under 2 seconds.  Have you never seen someone fusioned at the cloud pad by a wizzie?  And I myself have been killed by a Swashbuckler in that same amount of time.

  And why didn't you just evac in the first place.  Instead you sat there and let the ranger attack you, used an ability that took you out of combat, (i'm sure most of us wish we had one of those) and THEN evaced.  Were you just not expecting him to do as much damage as possible as quickly as he could?  If that is the case it makes you sound inexperienced.

  As I said, this is just more whining IMO.

Yes, I had a building there, by my own admission, and I WAS hiding behind it to get the ranger to come into range of MY spells (Rangers have got 25m of ranger more than I do, that's double FYI) when said ranger finally did jump down off his cliff, I started casting my mez so i could debuff without getting turned into a wood elven pin-cushion. By the time my mezz landed (1.87 seconds) I was in the red and looking for a way to [Removed for Content]. So I charmed Ranger_01 and evacced. Reason I didn't just evac in the first place is that I wanted tokens. I can kill some rangers, so i figured I'd give this one a shot. Obviously this is a ranger I cannot kill. Yes I was expecting to take some hits, but I wasn't expecting to be into the red in under 2 seconds.

Yes, an Assasin could do the same damage in the same ammount of time... but the ranger cant do it from half a mile away. By the time my mez landed, an assasin would be able to get near to me... maybe. Assuming it landed, said assasin would be debuffed and I would be nuking him down, instead of the other way around. An Assasin can do that kind of damage, but only if you let them... Ranger's can do it from outside of some people rendering distance... what then?

A wizard can do that sort of damage as well... except wait... mez = 1.87 seconds... fusion =5 seconds? Yeah cos I'm going to stand there and let him get his spell off... not.

Siphar wrote:

I wish my coercer (master of the mind and dominating ppl??) could charm...

Last time I checked a Coercer CAN charm in PvP, ut they have horrendus cast times.

Harry@Venekor wrote:

Exactly.  All those AApoints spent along a single tree, just to achieve a 10% chance of proccing.

I was complimenting your pvp skills Paikis, lol! /golf clap.  Especially if you've attained a majority solo as you say.  And as far as the swash skills go, totally different subject, and has nothing to do with how hard rangers are fixing to be nerfed if these changes go thru.  Maybe I should be pointing at your KVD and saying nerf troubadors, see how much better than rangers they are!

Ahh, you can charm another player! sweet!  I wish rangers could charm players to stay out of melee range!  my confusion was where your parse stated you mezzed the opposing player, putting you into combat, yet it didn't say you were out of combat.  As for my KvD, maybe I'm just one of those players who likes to take risks sometimes, and am willing to die to try and achieve my goals.  It happens ya know?  I play my class for the most part, but I spend alot of time solo or out ahead of the group scouting (my job).

The thing is no one knows how hard rangers are fixing to be nerfed. Last time they gave the bards somethng, it wwas to increase bard auto-attack to be the same as the rogue's... well that increase turned out to be a 2% increase (parsing data in Troub forums) So they're nerfing your 4 second root? Well 2% of 4 seconds is 0.08 seconds. Think you could live with a root that lasts 3.92 seconds? Of course, there was also the nerf to the Troub's charm... went from 8 minutes down to 12 seconds... thats a 97.5% nerf... having a 0.1 second root would  suck wouldnt it?

I actually started typing that last post with the idea that your KvD would be much higher, I was going to say look at your KvD ratio! mine is only 4:1 maybe I was a bit harsh.

Virii@Venekor wrote:

Rangers arn't the only class that does burst damage.  So why does everyone give them such a hard time?  Here are a few things I found going through 800 megs worth of log files.  I bet if I had more time, could even find other classes not listed below with lots of damage in short time.  Didn't put any Brigand or SK's in here because I feel bad for the changes coming up for them.

Assassin (1163565560)[Tue Nov 14 23:39:20 2006] Zoxuf's Freezing Strike hits YOU for 695 slashing damage. (1163565561)[Tue Nov 14 23:39:21 2006] Zoxuf's Jugular hits YOU for 665 slashing damage. (1163565562)[Tue Nov 14 23:39:22 2006] Zoxuf's Decapitate hits YOU for 3804 slashing damage. (1163565563)[Tue Nov 14 23:39:23 2006] Zoxuf's Killing Blade hits YOU for 1753 slashing damage. (1163565563)[Tue Nov 14 23:39:23 2006] Zoxuf has killed you.

Assassin (1178855347)[Thu May 10 23:49:07 2007] Skree's Freezing Strike hits YOU for 460 slashing damage. (117885534[Thu May 10 23:49:08 2007] Skree's Jugular hits YOU for 773 slashing damage. (1178855349)[Thu May 10 23:49:09 2007] Skree's Killing Blade hits YOU for 1316 slashing damage. (1178855351)[Thu May 10 23:49:11 2007] Skree's Decapitate hits YOU for 3038 slashing damage. (1178855351)[Thu May 10 23:49:11 2007] Skree has killed you.

Wizard (1167956884)[Thu Jan 04 19:28:04 2007] Pyriel's Ice Nova critically hits YOU for 5735 cold damage. (1167956887)[Thu Jan 04 19:28:07 2007] Pyriel's Ward of Sages absorbs 69 points of damage from being done to Pyriel. (1167956887)[Thu Jan 04 19:28:07 2007] Pyriel's Frost Ward absorbs 545 points of damage from being done to Pyriel. (1167956887)[Thu Jan 04 19:28:07 2007] YOUR Amazing Shot hits Pyriel but fails to inflict any damage. (1167956887)[Thu Jan 04 19:28:07 2007] YOU try to pierce Pyriel, but miss. (116795688[Thu Jan 04 19:28:08 2007] Pyriel's Ball of Lava hits YOU for 1564 heat damage. (116795688[Thu Jan 04 19:28:08 2007] Pyriel has killed you.

Wizard (117841117[Sat May 05 20:26:18 2007] YOU try to pierce Euphrates, but miss. (1178411179)[Sat May 05 20:26:19 2007] Euphrates' Ice Nova hits YOU for 3188 cold damage. (1178411182)[Sat May 05 20:26:22 2007] Euphrates' Ball of Lava hits YOU for 1229 heat damage. (1178411182)[Sat May 05 20:26:22 2007] Euphrates has killed you.

Wizard (1178849229)[Thu May 10 22:07:09 2007] Alam's Ball of Lava hits YOU for 1923 heat damage. (1178849233)[Thu May 10 22:07:13 2007] Alam's Ice Nova critically hits YOU for 4266 cold damage. (1178849233)[Thu May 10 22:07:13 2007] Alam has killed you.

Berzerker (1170027255)[Sun Jan 28 18:34:15 2007] YOUR Devitalizing Arrow hits Rafacus for 500 piercing damage. (1170027255)[Sun Jan 28 18:34:15 2007] YOUR Quick Shot hits Rafacus for 185 piercing damage. (1170027256)[Sun Jan 28 18:34:16 2007] YOU critically hit Rafacus for 367 piercing damage. (1170027256)[Sun Jan 28 18:34:16 2007] Rafacus' Vengeance hits YOU for 2266 divine damage. (1170027256)[Sun Jan 28 18:34:16 2007] Rafacus' Vengeance hits YOU for 2355 divine damage. (1170027256)[Sun Jan 28 18:34:16 2007] Rafacus has killed you. (1170027256)[Sun Jan 28 18:34:16 2007] Rafacus' Vengeance heals Rafacus for 1594 hit points.

Warlock (1170428159)[Fri Feb 02 09:55:59 2007] YOUR Amazing Shot hits Myrswithe for 436 piercing damage. (1170428159)[Fri Feb 02 09:55:59 2007] Myrswithe's Soul Blister hits YOU for 654 poison damage. (1170428159)[Fri Feb 02 09:55:59 2007] Myrswithe's Aura of Pain hits YOU for 450 disease damage. (1170428161)[Fri Feb 02 09:56:01 2007] YOUR Devitalizing Arrow hits Myrswithe for 579 piercing damage. (1170428163)[Fri Feb 02 09:56:03 2007] Myrswithe's Void Distortion hits YOU for 2362 poison damage. (1170428163)[Fri Feb 02 09:56:03 2007] Myrswithe's Aura of Pain hits YOU for 442 disease damage. (1170428163)[Fri Feb 02 09:56:03 2007] Myrswithe's Magi's Shielding absorbs 226 points of damage from being done to Myrswithe.

The zerker used a miracle, which i beleive only triggers when you  kill them. That doesn't count. The assasin's both had to get into melee range, which I'll admit is easier for an assasin than it is for a Troubador, but still, you could have used your root, you could have used your snares... you have ways of keeping them out of melee range. The Wizard has huge long cast times, same for the warlock. Also, NONE of the above have anything close to 50m range... realistically there should never be a time when a ranger loses a fight against those classes... well maybe the assasins.

Rabbitoh wrote:

Thanks too Devs if this goes live. Getting range on a ranger will be almost impossible. Upgrade our in-close CA's atleast.

You don't know how big/small the nerf is, FFS people, THE SKY IS NOT FALLING!!

Ohnoes wrote: (Can't find the quote)

Let ranger's cast on the run, we're the only ones who can't cast on the run. /quote

Actually lets dispell this fallacy right now. NO ONE can use bow CAs on the run... NO ONE. Get this into your head now rangers, NO ONE, NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN THE ENTIRE GAME can use bow CAs on the run. If an assasin wants to use his bow attacks, guess what? He stands still or he doesn't get to use it. If I want to use my bow attack, guess what? Yup, standing still. People say bards can cast while running. This is true, I can cast debuffs and two of my 4 nukes while running. One of those nukes is a group nuke, which does crap all damage to a single target and takes forever to cast, both of those nukes also have refresh timers over 15 seconds. So really there is only ONE nuke i get that is any good while running, and it has a 15 second recast anyway. Aside from that, if I want to do any kind of damage, I have to root myself.

 

[Broccoliswo]

I thoroughily enjoy EQ2 PvP and if ALL these changes go through, it's just going to become a giant zerg fest. People need to understand that some classes are SUPPOSED to track others, some classes are SUPPOSED to be able to gank and run, some classes are SUPPOSED to do big damage... JUST LIKE some classes are supposed to hold aggro in pvp fights, some classes bring important buffs in group fights, some classes are supposed to heal and keep their group alive, and some classes are supposed to incapacitate other classes. Class differences in DPS and functionality (especially solo) is the way the game is supposed to be. Not every class is supposed to be as good at soloing as a scout, and some are more group oriented. If you run around solo on your wizard and someone walks up to you and kills you when you're "not ready" to pvp, that's the game functioning properly with class differences. UNDERSTAND CLASS DIFFERENCES and KNOW YOUR CLASS'S ROLE. Remove class differences, and sony will have ruined another game.

[Mournblades]

These proposed changes go through and I guarantee you are going to see a lot of people cancelling their subscriptions. 

AA's help every toon that is true, but it is at everyones disposal to earn the same amount.  Capping it and making those who WORKED for it lose their points is rewarding the lazy and wrong.

If you are going to cap it why stop there? Why don't you just make it like World of Warcraft where you get 1 Talent/AA when you level? Instead of making us do XXX amount of quests to get a few extra points?  Not well thought out at all...

Balancing a game is not an easy task, but needs to be done slowly.  Sweeping changes just [Removed for Content] people off and make them leave. 

SOE you are gambling with your customer's loyalty and really need to reconsider these 'ideas'.

[emish]

First of all Nerfs get a lot of people upset, especially when the Nerf hits their own characters. I think that there have been some changes to pvp that were very neccessary (Incombat healing, Evacing in combat, Zoning while in combat) all of the changes have been made to better balance the game. I think that everyone's cry about druids heals is valid (and im a 70 warden). I think the nerf on signate of dark from light is an important and good change even though it hurts my character. I think that against most classes a warden does heal too much for solo pvp, I certainly wouldn't include a swashbuckler or a brigand in that with all the 3 second deaths they have rewarded me with. I dont think the root change matters as everyone allways breaks or resits my roots anyway. But I woudl like to say this "PVP one VS one is fun, group VS group is fun. But a RAID time 2, 3, or 4 wiping a single runner or even a group is not, for either side really." We have balances in the game for a level 70 attacking a level 40, I would like to see a balance restricting RAIDS from wiping out smaller groups that have no prayer in the world of facing them no matter what the class. I think the best you can do to level the playing field is place 2 restrictions: a group cant attack a single target, and a RAID cant attack unless its another RAID. Any person that plays on a PVP server can testify that it isnt fun getting wiped by a RAID times 2 as your out soloing.

[silentpsycho]

emish wrote:

First of all Nerfs get a lot of people upset, especially when the Nerf hits their own characters. I think that there have been some changes to pvp that were very neccessary (Incombat healing, Evacing in combat, Zoning while in combat) all of the changes have been made to better balance the game. I think that everyone's cry about druids heals is valid (and im a 70 warden). I think the nerf on signate of dark from light is an important and good change even though it hurts my character. I think that against most classes a warden does heal too much for solo pvp, I certainly wouldn't include a swashbuckler or a brigand in that with all the 3 second deaths they have rewarded me with. I dont think the root change matters as everyone allways breaks or resits my roots anyway. But I woudl like to say this "PVP one VS one is fun, group VS group is fun. But a RAID time 2, 3, or 4 wiping a single runner or even a group is not, for either side really." We have balances in the game for a level 70 attacking a level 40, I would like to see a balance restricting RAIDS from wiping out smaller groups that have no prayer in the world of facing them no matter what the class. I think the best you can do to level the playing field is place 2 restrictions: a group cant attack a single target, and a RAID cant attack unless its another RAID. Any person that plays on a PVP server can testify that it isnt fun getting wiped by a RAID times 2 as your out soloing.

QFE

One minor problem, though.  Think about this: Are 32 ungrouped solo PVP'ers any less effective agasint a single opponent than an organized raid?  If you want to see what I mean, go hang around the Sinking Sands docks any day after school lets out.  Try to run through there solo when your alignment isn't around.  Heck, just try to get to the carpet before someone pulls you out of immunity...

[Luxun]

silentpsycho wrote:

emish wrote:

First of all Nerfs get a lot of people upset, especially when the Nerf hits their own characters. I think that there have been some changes to pvp that were very neccessary (Incombat healing, Evacing in combat, Zoning while in combat) all of the changes have been made to better balance the game. I think that everyone's cry about druids heals is valid (and im a 70 warden). I think the nerf on signate of dark from light is an important and good change even though it hurts my character. I think that against most classes a warden does heal too much for solo pvp, I certainly wouldn't include a swashbuckler or a brigand in that with all the 3 second deaths they have rewarded me with. I dont think the root change matters as everyone allways breaks or resits my roots anyway. But I woudl like to say this "PVP one VS one is fun, group VS group is fun. But a RAID time 2, 3, or 4 wiping a single runner or even a group is not, for either side really." We have balances in the game for a level 70 attacking a level 40, I would like to see a balance restricting RAIDS from wiping out smaller groups that have no prayer in the world of facing them no matter what the class. I think the best you can do to level the playing field is place 2 restrictions: a group cant attack a single target, and a RAID cant attack unless its another RAID. Any person that plays on a PVP server can testify that it isnt fun getting wiped by a RAID times 2 as your out soloing.

QFE

One minor problem, though.  Think about this: Are 32 ungrouped solo PVP'ers any less effective agasint a single opponent than an organized raid?  If you want to see what I mean, go hang around the Sinking Sands docks any day after school lets out.  Try to run through there solo when your alignment isn't around.  Heck, just try to get to the carpet before someone pulls you out of immunity...

This is the biggest problem i have with the changes. No possible way of escape now, I play a SK and I have never whinned about in combat speed of certain classes. We need means of escape, Evac was too extreme, I agree with the changes, but the rest ? Come on ....you cant possibly expect us to go out in anything less than a x3 if there is no way to escape a fight.

[Xantinya]

Aeralik wrote:

Level locking has also been a hot topic on the forums over the past few months.  It's also a very tricky subject to handle.  Gaining equipment and better quality spells is something we encourage players to do and this is something everyone should still strive to do. 

We lock our characters because its the only way to pvp with our friends and guildies who don't have a higher level character considering we can't pvp when we mentor, it also keeps every zone lively (you really should pay attention to that, new players don't end up in a *dead* zone with no one to play with because of us *level lockers*), why oh why do you listen to whiners and people who are only interested in playing their lvl 70 character?  I have characters locked in every tier, this allows me to play with everyone in my guild, and we are having a blast, what in the world is some people's problem with that????? Achievements on the other hand can be easily obtained and quickly add to the power of your character.  The extreme cases of this, where people end up with an inordinately large number of achievements for their level, yields them to have an unbeatably strong advantage in PvP combat.  In order to mitigate the effects this, characters will be limited to spending 1.5 times their current level within the achievement trees.  You can still gain points above this limit and spend them later on as you level.  Once these changes go live, all characters who are over the new Achievement Per Level cap will be given the opportunity to respec their points on their first login.

This is SAD SAD SAD, you say yourself *Achievements can be easily obtained* ... and then later *yields them to have an "unbeatably* strong advantage* .... when you just said it was easy to obtain AAs ... so how can it be an *unbeatable* advantage if its *easy* to obtain???, why are you, AGAIN, listening to whiners and players who won't take the time to gain achievements points and prefer whining about other people's characters??? I spent hours and hours working on my characters to make them stronger, doing quests, running around for discovery experience, etc .... THIS IS EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING.

[Luxun]

Xantinya wrote:

Aeralik wrote:

Level locking has also been a hot topic on the forums over the past few months.  It's also a very tricky subject to handle.  Gaining equipment and better quality spells is something we encourage players to do and this is something everyone should still strive to do. 

We lock our characters because its the only way to pvp with our friends and guildies who don't have a higher level character considering we can't pvp when we mentor, it also keeps every zone lively (you really should pay attention to that, new players don't end up in a *dead* zone with no one to play with because of us *level lockers*), why oh why do you listen to whiners and people who are only interested in playing their lvl 70 character?  I have characters locked in every tier, this allows me to play with everyone in my guild, and we are having a blast, what in the world is some people's problem with that????? Achievements on the other hand can be easily obtained and quickly add to the power of your character.  The extreme cases of this, where people end up with an inordinately large number of achievements for their level, yields them to have an unbeatably strong advantage in PvP combat.  In order to mitigate the effects this, characters will be limited to spending 1.5 times their current level within the achievement trees.  You can still gain points above this limit and spend them later on as you level.  Once these changes go live, all characters who are over the new Achievement Per Level cap will be given the opportunity to respec their points on their first login.

This is SAD SAD SAD, you say yourself *Achievements can be easily obtained*, why are you, AGAIN, listening to whiners and players who won't take the time to gain achievements points and prefer whining about other people's characters??? I spent hours and hours working on my characters to make them stronger, doing quests, running around for discovery experience, etc .... THIS IS EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING.

lol you kinda made a funny point I have to admit. If it is so easy toi get AA then why are they nerfing it ..because people are lazy ?  Hoesntly the whole fact that the DEVs put this times 1.5 rule in proves the fact that they just dont play this game enough to make changes to it.

At lvl 17 (typical lvl locker) 1.5times 17 is 25.5 ....lets just round it down to 25. You telling me current lvl lockers at lvl 17 have more than 25 points ??? This change makes no sense at all to me lol.

IMO they should just not allow lvl locking until lvl 20 ....if someone hasn't learned the game enough by the time he is 20, then maybe this isn't the right game for him to play.

[CresentBlade]

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

Angelyc@Nagafen wrote:

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

Note to you, the entire point of a scout in a PvP group is to be able to know where others are and the "dangers" around them. If you would like to go out solo on your non-tracking class that is more group oriented, then that is entirely your fault. People like you want to remove every class defining ability and make this a game in which every class has the same abilities, etc. and that's completely ridiculous.

I'm not the one saying I like to go out solo (I don't like to solo; if I did I would play a solo class), that people should be losing their dps, that people should be losing their in-combat run speed, etc.  If track were really what a rog/pred really only had going for them, there is no way I would feel that other people should get something that warns them.  Track plus high dps is incredibly overpowering.  If it were only the dps, then you'd see more casters with high titles -- and if it were the track, you'd see more bards with high titles.  Truth is, track gives a huge advantage, overpowering, whether or not you'd like to admit it. 

I'm also not saying take out track completely -- but please, being able to track a group, know their approximate levels, or know if they ARE grouped or solo, being able to do massive dps from a distance away or evenat close range and in seconds kill someone and evac away with NO DANGER to themselves IS overpowered.  The reason why most people with high titles are rogs/preds (I'm talking master and overseer and I KNOW there are a few exceptions, I said MOST) is not because the best players choose those classes.  It's because that combination IS a bit too powerful.

As stated before, the entire point of a scout is to track opponents and deliver melee T1/T2 dps. It's the definition of their class. As for people of scout classes having the highest titles being related to an absence of skill, explain why there are slayer swashbucklers and general/master ranked tanks? Probably because those people know how to play the game in the setting best suited for their character. Think about it. A large portion of generals and a decent portion of masters are NOT scouts, and there are a lot of dreadnaught casters, as well.

For every titled non scout class theres about 50 titled scouts. You know how easy the class is, you even made videos showing how easy it is. I mean if you really dont see how easy, just watch your video or one of the 100+ other scout videos.

[Luxun]

CresentBlade wrote:

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

Angelyc@Nagafen wrote:

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

Note to you, the entire point of a scout in a PvP group is to be able to know where others are and the "dangers" around them. If you would like to go out solo on your non-tracking class that is more group oriented, then that is entirely your fault. People like you want to remove every class defining ability and make this a game in which every class has the same abilities, etc. and that's completely ridiculous.

I'm not the one saying I like to go out solo (I don't like to solo; if I did I would play a solo class), that people should be losing their dps, that people should be losing their in-combat run speed, etc.  If track were really what a rog/pred really only had going for them, there is no way I would feel that other people should get something that warns them.  Track plus high dps is incredibly overpowering.  If it were only the dps, then you'd see more casters with high titles -- and if it were the track, you'd see more bards with high titles.  Truth is, track gives a huge advantage, overpowering, whether or not you'd like to admit it. 

I'm also not saying take out track completely -- but please, being able to track a group, know their approximate levels, or know if they ARE grouped or solo, being able to do massive dps from a distance away or evenat close range and in seconds kill someone and evac away with NO DANGER to themselves IS overpowered.  The reason why most people with high titles are rogs/preds (I'm talking master and overseer and I KNOW there are a few exceptions, I said MOST) is not because the best players choose those classes.  It's because that combination IS a bit too powerful.

As stated before, the entire point of a scout is to track opponents and deliver melee T1/T2 dps. It's the definition of their class. As for people of scout classes having the highest titles being related to an absence of skill, explain why there are slayer swashbucklers and general/master ranked tanks? Probably because those people know how to play the game in the setting best suited for their character. Think about it. A large portion of generals and a decent portion of masters are NOT scouts, and there are a lot of dreadnaught casters, as well.

For every titled non scout class theres about 50 titled scouts. You know how easy the class is, you even made videos showing how easy it is. I mean if you really dont see how easy, just watch your video or one of the 100+ other scout videos.

I havea 70 SK and a 55 brigand. Both toons have all master 1s and good gear, the SK is in full pvp set.  Hardest thing I did on EQ2 was getting a master title as a brigand at lvl 44. You cannot say they are overpowered at that lvl. HOWEVER once you get passed t5 and enter t6 things get out of hand. Scouts always will have the track advantage, evades, evacs, ect .....half the reason I enjoy playing my SK more in higher tiers is because its more challenging and when I win a fight there is a sense of acomplishment. On my 55 brigand I'm taking out 70 casters ..or any non-scout 70 in bad gear ...kinda pathetic if you ask me.

[Broccoliswo]

CresentBlade wrote:

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

Angelyc@Nagafen wrote:

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

Note to you, the entire point of a scout in a PvP group is to be able to know where others are and the "dangers" around them. If you would like to go out solo on your non-tracking class that is more group oriented, then that is entirely your fault. People like you want to remove every class defining ability and make this a game in which every class has the same abilities, etc. and that's completely ridiculous.

I'm not the one saying I like to go out solo (I don't like to solo; if I did I would play a solo class), that people should be losing their dps, that people should be losing their in-combat run speed, etc.  If track were really what a rog/pred really only had going for them, there is no way I would feel that other people should get something that warns them.  Track plus high dps is incredibly overpowering.  If it were only the dps, then you'd see more casters with high titles -- and if it were the track, you'd see more bards with high titles.  Truth is, track gives a huge advantage, overpowering, whether or not you'd like to admit it. 

I'm also not saying take out track completely -- but please, being able to track a group, know their approximate levels, or know if they ARE grouped or solo, being able to do massive dps from a distance away or evenat close range and in seconds kill someone and evac away with NO DANGER to themselves IS overpowered.  The reason why most people with high titles are rogs/preds (I'm talking master and overseer and I KNOW there are a few exceptions, I said MOST) is not because the best players choose those classes.  It's because that combination IS a bit too powerful.

As stated before, the entire point of a scout is to track opponents and deliver melee T1/T2 dps. It's the definition of their class. As for people of scout classes having the highest titles being related to an absence of skill, explain why there are slayer swashbucklers and general/master ranked tanks? Probably because those people know how to play the game in the setting best suited for their character. Think about it. A large portion of generals and a decent portion of masters are NOT scouts, and there are a lot of dreadnaught casters, as well.

For every titled non scout class theres about 50 titled scouts. You know how easy the class is, you even made videos showing how easy it is. I mean if you really dont see how easy, just watch your video or one of the 100+ other scout videos.

That estimate is grossly inaccurate. If it's as easy as you state, roll a scout and accomplish what I have. Clearly, if there are many scouts with low titles, and who lose to classes they shouldn't lose too, then there's some skill involved. My videos are solo fights, sometimes against multiple people, and I've rarely included a caster unless I was outnumbered. Your class is basically a swashbuckler in plate mail 1 v 1, minus tracking, and with a 5.5 second stifle, if you really play a berserker. You're in no place to talk.

[CresentBlade]

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

CresentBlade wrote:

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

Angelyc@Nagafen wrote:

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

Note to you, the entire point of a scout in a PvP group is to be able to know where others are and the "dangers" around them. If you would like to go out solo on your non-tracking class that is more group oriented, then that is entirely your fault. People like you want to remove every class defining ability and make this a game in which every class has the same abilities, etc. and that's completely ridiculous.

I'm not the one saying I like to go out solo (I don't like to solo; if I did I would play a solo class), that people should be losing their dps, that people should be losing their in-combat run speed, etc.  If track were really what a rog/pred really only had going for them, there is no way I would feel that other people should get something that warns them.  Track plus high dps is incredibly overpowering.  If it were only the dps, then you'd see more casters with high titles -- and if it were the track, you'd see more bards with high titles.  Truth is, track gives a huge advantage, overpowering, whether or not you'd like to admit it. 

I'm also not saying take out track completely -- but please, being able to track a group, know their approximate levels, or know if they ARE grouped or solo, being able to do massive dps from a distance away or evenat close range and in seconds kill someone and evac away with NO DANGER to themselves IS overpowered.  The reason why most people with high titles are rogs/preds (I'm talking master and overseer and I KNOW there are a few exceptions, I said MOST) is not because the best players choose those classes.  It's because that combination IS a bit too powerful.

As stated before, the entire point of a scout is to track opponents and deliver melee T1/T2 dps. It's the definition of their class. As for people of scout classes having the highest titles being related to an absence of skill, explain why there are slayer swashbucklers and general/master ranked tanks? Probably because those people know how to play the game in the setting best suited for their character. Think about it. A large portion of generals and a decent portion of masters are NOT scouts, and there are a lot of dreadnaught casters, as well.

For every titled non scout class theres about 50 titled scouts. You know how easy the class is, you even made videos showing how easy it is. I mean if you really dont see how easy, just watch your video or one of the 100+ other scout videos.

That estimate is grossly inaccurate. If it's as easy as you state, roll a scout and accomplish what I have. Clearly, if there are many scouts with low titles, and who lose to classes they shouldn't lose too, then there's some skill involved.

I have played all the scout classes and they are so sickenly easy its not even funny. If your idea of fun and skill is killing people  before they even have a chance to fight back. Scouts are easy mode in this game an grossly over powered everyone knows it and only people that cant admitt it is the ones playing them now. Say good bye to easy mode, if your half as skilled as you think you are then this GU should not affect you at all. If your so really good with your class you will do just as well after the GU and really should not be here worried about the adjustments to the class.

Besides all the skill is from you and how you play you class, it has nothing to do with the class right? I mean thats what scouts say its not the class its the player. So you should have no trouble at all destroying all classes still after the GU.

Playing a scout is like shooting someone with a BFG in Quake game over...whew man skill pure skill.

[Badaxe Ba]

I think another approach should be taken as far as the AA points go, and that would be to ADD an award upon achieving a certain amount.  This would allow players some control over how they advance their AA lines while rewarding them for their achievements.  Instead of placing a cap, boost their character level!  Certainly this couldn't be seen as a bad thing!

Player A who works hard and manages to accomplish x amount of AA points, gains the ability of that AA bubble, and suddenly their character is matured! Congratulations, that ability proves you are capable of playing at a higher, more complex level, than before!  This would encourage people who work hard for their achievements, while discouraging those who's only purpose is to gain Godlike powers over their lesser opponents.  It would also move them further away from those with lesser abilities, and into a range of more comparative players.  It would also mean that those players who wish to remain at lower levels with their friends, only need to acomplish less to stay with them, instead of trying to accumulate debt as an anchor. It would also encourage them to 'push' their friends to accomplish the same amount in order to stay together as a team.

On an aside, Crescent Blade, your posts don't show anything but contempt and bitterness towards scouts.  For whatever reason this may be, you really need to play a scout, walk a mile in the other man's shoes so to speak, and then come back with reasonable logical well thought out ideas, not insults.  You say you've played scouts, but I honestly don't think you have, or you would know that there are classes that can beat them easily.

[Raidyen]

I really dont understand these changes.  I absolutely agree that there are problems, but after thinking about this for a day or two, what is suggested here is going to fix nothing.  All its going to do is shift the power house class from scouts over to healers.  Casters are completely smoking something if they think this is going to help them.  You can reduce my damage al you want, if i get the jump, which in the current system i will get 99 percent of the time, your 3k hitpoints at level 58, with no Mit, and no way to heal yourself (exception of those baby wards from the sta line) are going to maybe give you an extra 2 or 3 seconds at best.  They would have to cut scout damage by over 50 percent, and not touch caster damage, if casters are looking to win a pvp fight when a scout jumps them.  That is what most people here are looking at, how much damage a scout does when they get the jump.  Thats understandable, since all fights caster vs. scout, the scout starts.

The fix is give casters a way to see whats around them, and give them time to react.  A sentinel type spell like in EQ1, or even a less clunky version of Eye of Zoom.  Give them a reactive buff that will stun anyone for 2 seconds if they attack from stealth.  Give them a mini teleport.  Anything to give them time to even up the playing field with thier skill and spells. 

Tanks the same thing.  Give them a reactive knockback stun if they are hit from stealth, or back attacked, Give them a temporary immunity to range attacks, or immunity to stuns/stifles.  Make them react, like scouts have to on the rare occasions we get surprised. 

This honestly is a lazy fix, and is really going to do little to fix the real problems.  Before you can create a fair pvp rule set, you first have to give every class a chance to retake the intative.  Right now scouts own because we are the only ones with that advantage.  Give that to other classes, or a way to defend it, then balance damage at that point if needed.

[CresentBlade]

Harry@Venekor wrote:

I think another approach should be taken as far as the AA points go, and that would be to ADD an award upon achieving a certain amount.  This would allow players some control over how they advance their AA lines while rewarding them for their achievements.  Instead of placing a cap, boost their character level!  Certainly this couldn't be seen as a bad thing!

Player A who works hard and manages to accomplish x amount of AA points, gains the ability of that AA bubble, and suddenly their character is matured! Congratulations, that ability proves you are capable of playing at a higher, more complex level, than before!  This would encourage people who work hard for their achievements, while discouraging those who's only purpose is to gain Godlike powers over their lesser opponents.  It would also move them further away from those with lesser abilities, and into a range of more comparative players.  It would also mean that those players who wish to remain at lower levels with their friends, only need to acomplish less to stay with them, instead of trying to accumulate debt as an anchor. It would also encourage them to 'push' their friends to accomplish the same amount in order to stay together as a team.

On an aside, Crescent Blade, your posts don't show anything but contempt and bitterness towards scouts.  For whatever reason this may be, you really need to play a scout, walk a mile in the other man's shoes so to speak, and then come back with reasonable logical well thought out ideas, not insults.  You say you've played scouts, but I honestly don't think you have, or you would know that there are classes that can beat them easily.

My contempt is for scouts trying to preach how incredibly hard their class is and how hard they have it in pvp. Scouts are easy and over powered, fact. Wonder why there are so many scouts in pvp hmm it must be all the people that like playing the really tough class that relies on player skill alone. You scouts have been on these forums talking about people whining and crying and been having a blast telling others to learn to play, now its your turn to learn to play and you dont like it at all. You all are being told the same things you scouts took such great delight in telling others on the forums all this time. And now you cant handle it.

If the scout class is based mainly off of a player skill then you will have no problem still doing great and the GU should not affect you at all. Seriously I dont see what the beef is, people who play scouts are super fine players with mad skills you will adapt and continue to excel in the game. Heck since everyone is having their damage reduced its still the same thing just takes a little longer so your combat skills will still enable you to win most fights no problem.

Everyone is having their damage reduced so whats the problem?

If you really know how to play your class you will adapt, whats the problem?

If the scout class excels in pvp just because of player skill, whats the problem?

You all can attack the healing classes and the tank classes and caster classes and heck even the other posters. But it all comes down to the plain simple truth your easy mode of playing is being toned down and you might, maybe, perhaps a slight chance..hmm 50/50...just might have to fight on a little bit more even playing field.

[jw22]

Aeralik wrote:

Brigand

• Double up should only work on spells cast in the last second instead of last 2 seconds.
• Lowered the debuff amount on Devitalize and Dispatch     
• Reduced the stun duration on the Low Blow line.

OK, Heres my 2 cents.. First let me state that i used to have a 70 brigand on nagafen, the toon is gone now.  Personally i think the way they are changing this class is ridiculous, you are completely taking away what makes this class.  Devitalize, and dispatch have already been nerfed once.  Brigands already lost one of their stuns, this is a class that you have to be behind your target to do any serious damage.  A swash with a freedom of mind potion can already kill 95% of the brigands out there.  Reducing double to one second is just ignorant, double up is the true t1 dps brigands have.  It is nearly impossible to kill a well geared warden with the right AA's as it is now, if these changes are implemented, it will be impossible.  As i said i dont even have a brigand anymore, but i feel for the people that spent months of there time grinding their toon to 70 and working hard to get decent gear just to have their class nerfed into uselessness. Ackiles 55 bruiser Nagafen

[Amphibia]

Angelyc@Nagafen wrote:

I'm not the one saying I like to go out solo (I don't like to solo; if I did I would play a solo class), that people should be losing their dps, that people should be losing their in-combat run speed, etc.  If track were really what a rog/pred really only had going for them, there is no way I would feel that other people should get something that warns them.  Track plus high dps is incredibly overpowering.  If it were only the dps, then you'd see more casters with high titles -- and if it were the track, you'd see more bards with high titles.  Truth is, track gives a huge advantage, overpowering, whether or not you'd like to admit it. 

I'm also not saying take out track completely -- but please, being able to track a group, know their approximate levels, or know if they ARE grouped or solo, being able to do massive dps from a distance away or evenat close range and in seconds kill someone and evac away with NO DANGER to themselves IS overpowered.  The reason why most people with high titles are rogs/preds (I'm talking master and overseer and I KNOW there are a few exceptions, I said MOST) is not because the best players choose those classes.  It's because that combination IS a bit too powerful.

No, it really isn't "overpowered", DPS and tracking is what a predators/rouges are supposed to do. There are classes for every taste and playstyle. When you go to character select to create a new character, there is some nice basic information about all the classes there...  for example: Rangers are unrivaled in their ability to hunt foes and scout dangers in the untamed wilds of Norrath. Known for sneaking safely through dangerous territory, Rangers use stealth, perception, and cunning to seek out enemies and fell them from a distance with a deadly volley of arrows. and The Assassin is the master of sinister strikes and opportunistic attacks. Espesially skilled at suprising unwitting opponents, they strike suddenly and inflict massive damage. Assassins are known for using deadly poisons to debilitate their targets before finishing them off. But maybe you want them to be something else, is that it?

[Broccoliswo]

Amphibia wrote:

Angelyc@Nagafen wrote:

I'm not the one saying I like to go out solo (I don't like to solo; if I did I would play a solo class), that people should be losing their dps, that people should be losing their in-combat run speed, etc.  If track were really what a rog/pred really only had going for them, there is no way I would feel that other people should get something that warns them.  Track plus high dps is incredibly overpowering.  If it were only the dps, then you'd see more casters with high titles -- and if it were the track, you'd see more bards with high titles.  Truth is, track gives a huge advantage, overpowering, whether or not you'd like to admit it. 

I'm also not saying take out track completely -- but please, being able to track a group, know their approximate levels, or know if they ARE grouped or solo, being able to do massive dps from a distance away or evenat close range and in seconds kill someone and evac away with NO DANGER to themselves IS overpowered.  The reason why most people with high titles are rogs/preds (I'm talking master and overseer and I KNOW there are a few exceptions, I said MOST) is not because the best players choose those classes.  It's because that combination IS a bit too powerful.

No, it really isn't "overpowered", DPS and tracking is what a predators/rouges are supposed to do. There are classes for every taste and playstyle. When you go to character select to create a new character, there is some nice basic information about all the classes there...  for example: Rangers are unrivaled in their ability to hunt foes and scout dangers in the untamed wilds of Norrath. Known for sneaking safely through dangerous territory, Rangers use stealth, perception, and cunning to seek out enemies and fell them from a distance with a deadly volley of arrows. and The Assassin is the master of sinister strikes and opportunistic attacks. Espesially skilled at suprising unwitting opponents, they strike suddenly and inflict massive damage. Assassins are known for using deadly poisons to debilitate their targets before finishing them off. But maybe you want them to be something else, is that it?

God knows the classes are working as they were intended to work. It's okay, once Sone is done here, perhaps they can save money by removing some of the programming so all the classes have the same description. That's what we're moving towards, after all. People need to learn to deal with class differences, they're supposed to be there, and to stop crying because their class wasn't meant to solo.

[dr4gonUK]

This gu = 1 step closer to class vanillafication.

[sprogn]

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

Um... when WIS/AGI spec fully raid or pvp geared swash = 2700-ish mit in offensive stance, berserker = how much mit?

Talk percentages.  My mage has way more numerical avoidance than my berserker, both are L70.  Yet in percentage terms, the Berserker is higher than the mage.

Mitigation for my Berserker in Defensive stance with 1 PVP item, 3 Relic items, and the rest Doomrage is about 56% - but I can't really hit s... with that.  Offensive my mit is 52.9% (368.  Sure, he doesn't have 7 PVP items, but then I don't have track to farm tokens from the squishies....

With my Avoidance maxed out (STA 448 (INT 44782) I sit at 37.4% avoidance offensive or 48.5% defensive.

Could you give your offensive and defensive mit/avoidance to compare please with a similar tanking AA spec?

Thanks in advance