Paladin Feedback Thread

[Boli32]

Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:

I don't want more DPS or more sustained aggro. I want the suriviability to be either on par as to what a defensive tank should have and proper tooling for mem wiping adds. (A related note: I don't want our class to be radically redesigned to achieve these two points)

If I wanted to DPS, I would be playing my wizard. I want to tank and I want to have the right tools to do so, as a Paladin. Not as any other class.

Edit: I don't really care what other classes get. I just want to be able to do my job well.

I honeslty think that a re-design is needed but only to our heals

There is NO REASON why the paladin class should have so many direct heals; tweaking and changing our flurry of heals into tanking abilities rather than just set direct heals is the way forwards.

We have been told time and again that a pally class should be a highly defensive tank with heals making up the difference between us and guardians. roblem is giving us lots of heals only makes us better solo-ers and not better tanks. Even just changing Holy Aid into a single trigger reactive is a much better idea than our current "yet another heal".

We have 12 (13) buttons on our hot bars which heal usWe can also have 4 different methods to cure ourselves not counting potionsMost healers don't get that much.....

[Bruener]

Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Wow, I have a lot to read and catch up on. One note though.

ADD STONESKIN TRIGGERS TO OUR REZ TARGET. That way we don't need to move, or risk them dying instantly when we rez. Bonus range does nothing when we still have to move before they accept.. which often defeats the purpose of rezzing them faster.

EDIT: After reading:

Duele, you're kind of just trolling man.

You came into an elaborate thread, insulted everyone by saying we were basically overcomplicating the situation (Which you personally have not experienced) and turned it into a Tank feedback thread, instead of a Paladin feedback thread.

You're yelling for brawler nerfs, rolling DPS changes, and SK buffs.

TRUTH: Paladins are worse off than Shadowknights in every department. You're probably just not very good.

EVERY PALADIN IN THIS THREAD AGREEING can't be "not very good", because we're all that's left, lol. That's not how comparisons work.

There are less than 10 competitive Paladins left in the game, and all of them are extraordinarily good players. There are still a huge amount of average shadowknights left over from the overpowered TSO days. You're comparing mediocrity to excellence. Your entire argument is invalid, because there are SKs that do much better than you do with the same.

They don't have these issues you're conjuring up just to be overpowered again.

There's a reason this thread is so robust, because there isn't a single educated person not willing to support paladin-only improvements before making any drastic changes to every other tank.

Here is the problem.  You guys are comparing yourselves to Fighters that are known to be OP'd right now.  Bringing you up to their stupid level of being able to negate 1 shots constantly while having np with agro due to great sustained agro PLUS awesome snap ability is not the way to go.  If you could step back and look at it from a mechanics stand point and balancing Fighters better as a whole what I said makes perfect sense.  Crusaders should not get the snaps that Brawlers get.  Brawlers were given their great snap agro capability along with awesome short term survivability buffs for one simple reason...pick mobs up easily and hold them for a short time without much support.

I agree that Paladins need more in the way of handling the incoming spike 1 shots.  An additional ability on a pretty fast reuse that they can use for those 1 shot AEs and maybe even the addition of an ability on a longer reuse.

Sustained agro is fine.  The DPS argument I put up though is for Fighter mechanics as a whole.  Hate is getting stupid this xpac and tbh T1 DPS numbers are way out of whack from where they should be.  20-30% higher than T2 makes sense...not 100%.  I would expect this gap to start to close with the next xpac.  Scouts for example are going to hit their MA cap while Fighters will still climb.  Closing that huge gap with do a few things.....make self hate generation more reliable which allows for more flexibility in raids and allow for more flexible raid set ups instead of every open spot possible going to T1 DPS classes and even dropping other utility to just fill in with T1 like it is now.

As for me personally.  The fact is I could have your spot in the guild you are in at any time I wanted.  Personally attacking me when you really don't have a clue how I play is really getting old and is a Gungo/Blanka tactic.  Its really quite pathetic and desperate but does provide for a good chuckle for anybody that has actually seen me in action.

[Gungo]

Bruener wrote:

Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Wow, I have a lot to read and catch up on. One note though.

ADD STONESKIN TRIGGERS TO OUR REZ TARGET. That way we don't need to move, or risk them dying instantly when we rez. Bonus range does nothing when we still have to move before they accept.. which often defeats the purpose of rezzing them faster.

EDIT: After reading:

Duele, you're kind of just trolling man.

You came into an elaborate thread, insulted everyone by saying we were basically overcomplicating the situation (Which you personally have not experienced) and turned it into a Tank feedback thread, instead of a Paladin feedback thread.

You're yelling for brawler nerfs, rolling DPS changes, and SK buffs.

TRUTH: Paladins are worse off than Shadowknights in every department. You're probably just not very good.

EVERY PALADIN IN THIS THREAD AGREEING can't be "not very good", because we're all that's left, lol. That's not how comparisons work.

There are less than 10 competitive Paladins left in the game, and all of them are extraordinarily good players. There are still a huge amount of average shadowknights left over from the overpowered TSO days. You're comparing mediocrity to excellence. Your entire argument is invalid, because there are SKs that do much better than you do with the same.

They don't have these issues you're conjuring up just to be overpowered again.

There's a reason this thread is so robust, because there isn't a single educated person not willing to support paladin-only improvements before making any drastic changes to every other tank.

Here is the problem.  You guys are comparing yourselves to Fighters that are known to be OP'd right now.  Bringing you up to their stupid level of being able to negate 1 shots constantly while having np with agro due to great sustained agro PLUS awesome snap ability is not the way to go.  If you could step back and look at it from a mechanics stand point and balancing Fighters better as a whole what I said makes perfect sense.  Crusaders should not get the snaps that Brawlers get.  Brawlers were given their great snap agro capability along with awesome short term survivability buffs for one simple reason...pick mobs up easily and hold them for a short time without much support.

I agree that Paladins need more in the way of handling the incoming spike 1 shots.  An additional ability on a pretty fast reuse that they can use for those 1 shot AEs and maybe even the addition of an ability on a longer reuse.

Sustained agro is fine.  The DPS argument I put up though is for Fighter mechanics as a whole.  Hate is getting stupid this xpac and tbh T1 DPS numbers are way out of whack from where they should be.  20-30% higher than T2 makes sense...not 100%.  I would expect this gap to start to close with the next xpac.  Scouts for example are going to hit their MA cap while Fighters will still climb.  Closing that huge gap with do a few things.....make self hate generation more reliable which allows for more flexibility in raids and allow for more flexible raid set ups instead of every open spot possible going to T1 DPS classes and even dropping other utility to just fill in with T1 like it is now.

As for me personally.  The fact is I could have your spot in the guild you are in at any time I wanted.  Personally attacking me when you really don't have a clue how I play is really getting old and is a Gungo/Blanka tactic.  Its really quite pathetic and desperate but does provide for a good chuckle for anybody that has actually seen me in action.

First the content dictates the tools needed to survive the fact guardians and brawlers have those tools does not negate the fact paladins DO NOT HAVE THOSE TOOLS. I havent seen many posts saying guardians are overpowered and paladins should be comparable to guardians.

Right now in game adds mem wipe alot and have coop strike which requires them to be snapped back ASAP. Right now in game named npcs have extremely large mostly physical damage insta kill mechanics. Attacks that do 125% of your health in damage that can only be prevented by stone skins or death prevents or in rarer cases VERY HIGH damage reduction/wards.

These mechanics exist regardless if guards or brawlers have better tools to handle these situations or not. Paladins are the defensive crusader they need the tools to survive in game named npcs who have extremely large damage spikes.

Sustained agro is NOT an issue. Self hate generation is not an issue. Seriously get yourself hate adorns. Darkonx still raids and maintanks most content. He has no issue with sustained hate. Fighters do not need more dps to hold agro. The gap may close a bit because of the MA cap and likely more when they introduce reforging but the developers have no intention of making fighter gear any more comparable to scout gear. Scouts will always have a significant advantage in dps as they SHOULD. Rogues will still out dps fighters and bards will still beat fighters in most situations. The devs do KNOW this hence why they just revamped all gear and still left fighter gear with significantly less dps.

I find it funny you scold maergoth for questioning your ability after you question his. The fact is equillibrium (gaige in particular) has posted maergoth is a very good paladin and while jael has been the best he has seen maergoth is very close. I doubt you could take his spot away considering your constant crying on how every fighter is a better class then you. That simple shows that at some point every fighter class has outplayed you.

Once again sinc eyou have a hard time understanding. Fighters DO NOT need sustained agro. Fighters do not need more dps. PALADINS need a reliable stone skin ability. PALADINS need a reliable amount of single target snaps. There is other suggestions such as removing the 1 hate position on holy ground and some other form of ontrolable hate position on thier aoe taunts but the two prior suggestions are the two biggest issues PALADINS deal with in this expac.

[Maergoth]

@Duele

You're missing what we're saying. You're expecting us to want to be on par with shadowknights. That's completely unacceptable. You guys are the offensive tank. If we can't do the DPS you do or have the utility you do, we need to have the survivability THEY do.

Since we're not hailed as defensive as guardians, I'd expect us to get some utility and aggro benefits over them as well.. that's how it works.

A tank is boiled down to three different things.

Survivability

Aggro

Utility

Utility and DPS are synonymous. 100%. They have nothing to do with aggro, as aggro needs to stand up on its own. If I have a button I can click that makes my group hit for 1k each, or a combat art that hits for 6k, they both kill the mob as fast. Obviously there will be little differences in application, but I don't need to show up on the parse if it means I can do enable that DPS, survive and hold aggro.

There's no reason every class should have everything top notch, I agree. But there's even less reason for Paladins and Shadowknights to be even, since you're SUPPOSED to be a more offensive tank.

We should get the survivability edge, the same aggro potential, and a little less utility. Right now we have less survivability, less aggro, and much less utility. How can you disagree with that, beyond ignorance?

Nobody cares how good you think you are, but the fact of the matter is, you're making this a topic about you. You're bringing your personal experience and your class into a thread where it doesn't belong, and getting upset because people aren't agreeing with you.

[Buzzing]

Really the bickering and pointing fingers in here degrades the entire thread. I would really like to see where all of this is going.

I was asked by my guild to roll as a monk. I will always have my Paladin and countinue to drive for the changes needed. It's just that they were needed a long time ago and really I'm raiding now.

[Bruener]

Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:

Really the bickering and pointing fingers in here degrades the entire thread. I would really like to see where all of this is going.

I was asked by my guild to roll as a monk. I will always have my Paladin and countinue to drive for the changes needed. It's just that they were needed a long time ago and really I'm raiding now.

Give it a month or 2 and you will be back on the Paladin.

[Buzzing]

Bruener wrote:

Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:

Really the bickering and pointing fingers in here degrades the entire thread. I would really like to see where all of this is going.

I was asked by my guild to roll as a monk. I will always have my Paladin and countinue to drive for the changes needed. It's just that they were needed a long time ago and really I'm raiding now.

Give it a month or 2 and you will be back on the Paladin.

I hope so tbh. A monk is fun but I love my pali.

[Anurra]

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:

I don't want more DPS or more sustained aggro. I want the suriviability to be either on par as to what a defensive tank should have and proper tooling for mem wiping adds. (A related note: I don't want our class to be radically redesigned to achieve these two points)

If I wanted to DPS, I would be playing my wizard. I want to tank and I want to have the right tools to do so, as a Paladin. Not as any other class.

Edit: I don't really care what other classes get. I just want to be able to do my job well.

I honeslty think that a re-design is needed but only to our heals

There is NO REASON why the paladin class should have so many direct heals; tweaking and changing our flurry of heals into tanking abilities rather than just set direct heals is the way forwards.

We have been told time and again that a pally class should be a highly defensive tank with heals making up the difference between us and guardians. roblem is giving us lots of heals only makes us better solo-ers and not better tanks. Even just changing Holy Aid into a single trigger reactive is a much better idea than our current "yet another heal".

We have 12 (13) buttons on our hot bars which heal usWe can also have 4 different methods to cure ourselves not counting potionsMost healers don't get that much.....

I don't mind things like this, but I don't want to wake up one day and feel like I'm playing a totally different class You know, the scrapped fighter revamp and all.

[Anurra]

Bruener wrote:

Maergoth@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Wow, I have a lot to read and catch up on. One note though.

ADD STONESKIN TRIGGERS TO OUR REZ TARGET. That way we don't need to move, or risk them dying instantly when we rez. Bonus range does nothing when we still have to move before they accept.. which often defeats the purpose of rezzing them faster.

EDIT: After reading:

Duele, you're kind of just trolling man.

You came into an elaborate thread, insulted everyone by saying we were basically overcomplicating the situation (Which you personally have not experienced) and turned it into a Tank feedback thread, instead of a Paladin feedback thread.

You're yelling for brawler nerfs, rolling DPS changes, and SK buffs.

TRUTH: Paladins are worse off than Shadowknights in every department. You're probably just not very good.

EVERY PALADIN IN THIS THREAD AGREEING can't be "not very good", because we're all that's left, lol. That's not how comparisons work.

There are less than 10 competitive Paladins left in the game, and all of them are extraordinarily good players. There are still a huge amount of average shadowknights left over from the overpowered TSO days. You're comparing mediocrity to excellence. Your entire argument is invalid, because there are SKs that do much better than you do with the same.

They don't have these issues you're conjuring up just to be overpowered again.

There's a reason this thread is so robust, because there isn't a single educated person not willing to support paladin-only improvements before making any drastic changes to every other tank.

Here is the problem.  You guys are comparing yourselves to Fighters that are known to be OP'd right now.  Bringing you up to their stupid level of being able to negate 1 shots constantly while having np with agro due to great sustained agro PLUS awesome snap ability is not the way to go.  If you could step back and look at it from a mechanics stand point and balancing Fighters better as a whole what I said makes perfect sense.  Crusaders should not get the snaps that Brawlers get.  Brawlers were given their great snap agro capability along with awesome short term survivability buffs for one simple reason...pick mobs up easily and hold them for a short time without much support.

I agree that Paladins need more in the way of handling the incoming spike 1 shots.  An additional ability on a pretty fast reuse that they can use for those 1 shot AEs and maybe even the addition of an ability on a longer reuse.

Sustained agro is fine.  The DPS argument I put up though is for Fighter mechanics as a whole.  Hate is getting stupid this xpac and tbh T1 DPS numbers are way out of whack from where they should be.  20-30% higher than T2 makes sense...not 100%.  I would expect this gap to start to close with the next xpac.  Scouts for example are going to hit their MA cap while Fighters will still climb.  Closing that huge gap with do a few things.....make self hate generation more reliable which allows for more flexibility in raids and allow for more flexible raid set ups instead of every open spot possible going to T1 DPS classes and even dropping other utility to just fill in with T1 like it is now.

As for me personally.  The fact is I could have your spot in the guild you are in at any time I wanted.  Personally attacking me when you really don't have a clue how I play is really getting old and is a Gungo/Blanka tactic.  Its really quite pathetic and desperate but does provide for a good chuckle for anybody that has actually seen me in action.

Just about every post you make seems to talk about general mechanics, this-that and the other thing. Go make a new thread about that and post there. I'm not saying there are issues. What I'm trying to say: This is not the place for your input. Find the right place for it.

I don't care if the current content summons a battalion of rangers to shoot up the tank. If we can't handle it and others can, then there are issues. They should be fixed. OR the developers should tell us what we are (which they won't since "classes are always in a state of flux").

[Maergoth]

Funny you should mention that..

*COUGH* VALLON ZEK *COUGH*

[Buzzing]

an army of rangers would be kind of fun. We would get to kill them on the apposing side instead of them always being dead in the raid window!

[tsunewolf]

Killing rangers is fun, come join nagafen n' I'll show yah

[Anurra]

I did not know that a battalion of mobs actually gets summoned in that raid, pretty funny haha. We are still in launch EM.

BUT, with the recent update and the BP issues, I'm sure we all have high hopes for the future of Paladins.

[Controlor]

Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:

I did not know that a battalion of mobs actually gets summoned in that raid, pretty funny haha. We are still in launch EM.

BUT, with the recent update and the BP issues, I'm sure we all have high hopes for the future of Paladins.

I have attempted Vallon a couple times (still stuck at him down to about 50%). But yah every min or so spawns bunch of rangers yah got to beat down. They can pile up hard if your dps is lacking (or fail at other things in the raid).

[Boli32]

Controlor wrote:

Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:

I did not know that a battalion of mobs actually gets summoned in that raid, pretty funny haha. We are still in launch EM.

BUT, with the recent update and the BP issues, I'm sure we all have high hopes for the future of Paladins.

I have attempted Vallon a couple times (still stuck at him down to about 50%). But yah every min or so spawns bunch of rangers yah got to beat down. They can pile up hard if your dps is lacking (or fail at other things in the raid).

There os a trick with them.... shame we can't do it

[tsunewolf]

No updates from any devs yet??

[Anurra]

Against@Nagafen wrote:

No updates from any devs yet??

Nope, they are too busy fixing the BPs from the latest update

[tsunewolf]

They need to fix this stuff soon...

[Maergoth]

I had to move the thread off my bookmarks toolbar folder, because it was depressing to check it every day :/ Still no changes.

Died last night through reflect on hardmode generals.. it's not a frequent occurrence, but it did prevent us from killing it that pull.

Note: I was tertiary tank, on the easiest mob of the bunch and not even capable of reliably living through the AOE.

30s timer. Reflect the first one, ward/stonewall the second one (usually doesn't work), manawall the 3rd, ward/stonewall the the 4th.. ask for a DI if mine isn't already down, reflect the next, manawall the next. At this point, one of my saves has failed, or my DI is down anyway from running out of stuff. It's entirely possible that either reflect or stonewall or manawall failed to save me, and my DI went down on any of the early AOEs. This happens pretty frequently. If it does, I can't use my ward/block combo and hope to live, because chances are, I won't. I have to exhaust all my priest DIs in sequence until reflect is up, or manawall, and hope they don't get me killed.

And that's all in the first 3 minutes or so, and the extent of me being able to "control" my survivability. After that, it all goes to hell. Not including the possibility of multi attacks and stuff which, if timed properly, can wreck me as well.

Very few pulls where I actually manage to live the whole way through (And by few, I mean, none so far.) Thankfully, the undergeared monk app just facerolls the keyboard and does just fine.

[LivelyHound]

I followed this thread from the beginning and havn't re-read it for a while, but I don't ever recall seeing a red name post in it... 24 pages long and not a single response... /facepalm Of course if I missed the red name sorry Oh and you know this is not getting fixed with the next expansion in november because if it was something would have been said in here to shut the discussion down. Guess we can look at at least another 7 months of mediocrity.

[Controlor]

Isulith wrote:

Thank you for your feedback, everyone! I will forward your suggestions to the devs and see what they say about this.

^^^ Was one of i think 2 red named posts here. This was on page 19 and before that there was 0. So yah not hapening for a while for sure sadly enough.

[Boli32]

Controlor wrote:

Isulith wrote:

Thank you for your feedback, everyone! I will forward your suggestions to the devs and see what they say about this.

^^^ Was one of i think 2 red named posts here. This was on page 19 and before that there was 0. So yah not hapening for a while for sure sadly enough.

At least we got *a* response even if it will be "workign as intended" once the devs read through this - truefully its the complete lack of repsonce/feedback resolution about pallys which has me most concerned b/c either they "don't care" or are "planning something".... or worse case... they are "plannign something" but for 2012/13 adjustments!

One thing is clear however there will be ZERO raiding pallys in 2012 if something is not changed and the content continues along the same lines it has been building from since TSO. (large AoEs/Frontals which can regually kill the MT/OT). Guilds will choose the tanks which can regually survive such attacks.

Oh and seriously.... what is with the "unavoidable deaths" to force tank swapping etc... they've been around for like ever and its very annoying to have to DIE consiatantly in the script...

[Controlor]

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

At least we got *a* response even if it will be "workign as intended" once the devs read through this - truefully its the complete lack of repsonce/feedback resolution about pallys which has me most concerned b/c either they "don't care" or are "planning something".... or worse case... they are "plannign something" but for 2012/13 adjustments!

One thing is clear however there will be ZERO raiding pallys in 2012 if something is not changed and the content continues along the same lines it has been building from since TSO. (large AoEs/Frontals which can regually kill the MT/OT). Guilds will choose the tanks which can regually survive such attacks.

Oh and seriously.... what is with the "unavoidable deaths" to force tank swapping etc... they've been around for like ever and its very annoying to have to DIE consiatantly in the script...

I do not disagree with this one but, was just saying there was "a" red named response in this thread. Took 19 pages, and that was 3 weeks ago..... *sad face*

[Boli32]

Controlor wrote:

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

At least we got *a* response even if it will be "workign as intended" once the devs read through this - truefully its the complete lack of repsonce/feedback resolution about pallys which has me most concerned b/c either they "don't care" or are "planning something".... or worse case... they are "plannign something" but for 2012/13 adjustments!

One thing is clear however there will be ZERO raiding pallys in 2012 if something is not changed and the content continues along the same lines it has been building from since TSO. (large AoEs/Frontals which can regually kill the MT/OT). Guilds will choose the tanks which can regually survive such attacks.

Oh and seriously.... what is with the "unavoidable deaths" to force tank swapping etc... they've been around for like ever and its very annoying to have to DIE consiatantly in the script...

I do not disagree with this one but, was just saying there was "a" red named response in this thread. Took 19 pages, and that was 3 weeks ago..... *sad face*

red name != dev.

And they only said they will pass it on not if anythgn would happen about it.

[Controlor]

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

red name != dev.

And they only said they will pass it on not if anythgn would happen about it.

Where have i said anything different? Each post was that a red named responded. Never stated a dev responded, or even a dev looked at this page after the red named supposidly passed it on. My original quote of that they would be passing it along to the dev team was to livelyhood asking if a red named posted in the thread.

As i also said i agree with your statements that IF a dev has looked at this thread it is either "dont care" or "planning something". When they plan to do something I am betting is going to be 2012 MAYBE Jan / Feb at the earliest. This and next month is the new expac (doubt our fixes will be there). Dec/Jan will be fixing BL and broken mechanics the expansion creates (I highly doubt that BL will not be broken in some way whether its being OP or under power). Late Jan / Feb is where they MAY come out with something for us. If not than possibly early spring.

[Maergoth]

Well, troub changes go live tomorrow. Maybe we're the next class balance project? Who knows. Not us, because regardless of whether it has been "passed on" or not, we've been "passed up" enough times that I'm not getting my hopes up.

Also, about the "tank swapping" death touches.. that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the line of text under every unintentionally fatal effect that says

Kills target

->If Paladin

If every tank was dying to this stuff, and swapping tanks or rotating saves was proper, than that's fine. But it isn't, unless one of those tanks involved is a Paladin. Then it's a necessity.

[Boli32]

No other class archetype has got to swap or physcially be killed as much as tanks; one or two cases per expansion... kind of annoying after a point.

[tsunewolf]

I give up; it's obvious they don't care about paladins.

[Controlor]

Against@Nagafen wrote:

I give up; it's obvious they don't care about paladins.

As i said i would be truely shocked if we see ANY type of update for paladins before late jan / early feb. If not April 2012.

[Mangano]

After checking once more the aa options, adornments in hopes to squeeze more out of my paladin,

I /shrug and sign this post.

/sign

Lupuos

Paladin on Splitpaw