PvP changes coming in GU 36

[Broccoliswo]

Captain Apple Darkberry wrote:

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

Captain Apple Darkberry wrote:

Strums wrote:

I am so tired of people comming to the boards and posting about OP classes etc when they get owned...next thing you know big changes like these happen.  I just wish they would keep the rule set the same...for gods sake quit changing stuff.  The sad thing too, is that alot of people post wine threads simply because they cant play their class well, then all the other's jump on the wagon with um... I hope they have a button to select on the cancelation page of EQ2 asking why you quit, and it says "PvP is way to dumbed down"

Maybe so...   ...I think there was one for Classes are imbalanced...   ...and I guess enough people clicked it.

Not all classes are supposed to have an equal chance in solo PvP. How can you not understand that?

I do understand, and even agree...   ...but there comes a point when the imbalance is a little too much.  [I cannot control my vocabulary] near everyone [I cannot control my vocabulary] at some point about the in-combat run speeds when they were introduced, that they were screwing up PvP.  But peeps just rolled the classes that abused them, and now that they are being nerfed, the thing people knew was going to happen, they are crying. It will still be a game of class archtypes which have their nemesis, but the disparity will be less. The reason people gripe is that it is a ~change~.  If it had been like this from the beginning people wouldn't give two [I cannot control my vocabulary]... How can longer fights be bad...?   ...oh thats right...   ...tougher to gank for infamy and then run before someone else jumps in. Your just [Removed for Content] cause you rolled the most overpowered class and now it is getting nerfed to understandable levels...

Most overused, untrue remark ever. You fail to realize that longer fights in an ideal game are great. This isn't an ideal game. Longer fights will lead to more rez zerging, more people jumping into even fights, among other wonderful things.

[WasFycksir]

First the class balancing.  Some of the changes seem ok, some seem outright ridiculous.  As many have said, without nerfing heals, nerfing damage output just turns healers into gods.  Hopefully the test server will bring out the tweaks needed.  I realize the goal  is to lengthen the duration of battles, which overall is a good thing imo.  But lets be real careful here or we may reap some unintended consequenses.

Secondly, the AA/experience debt ideas are just wrong and should not be implemented at all. 

EVERYONE CAN GAIN THE SAME AA'S IN THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME, THEREFORE THE SYSTEM IS INHERITANTLY BALANCED.  That being said with the knowledge that some classes are better at soloing/grouping of course.  But everyone can do the same quests, kill the same named and loot the same items that give AA points, again it's already equal and fair.

The problem here is that some people just don't want to put in the same effort, yet they want the same rewards.  It's really that simple if they are honest about it.  There are games out there that spawn you into the game all equal, think "Tribes 1/2" type games.  But EQ/EQ2 are games which if you are smart and work at it, you can in fact be superior in many/all ways to your opponent at any given level.  But again, it's because it's earned.

Don't let the slackers rule this game, if they want an uber AA build, then make them go earn it.  Don't bring down the achievers because of them.

Cayman, 47 coercer

Ogizzard, 42 necro

Thuk, tailor

Koercer, 11 fury, was gonna be an uber fury, but now I am not so sure I am going to stick with EQ2, I am going to have to see how all this plays out.  I will let you all know if you can have my stuff at a later date.

All these toons are on Nagafen, none are uber, but all are fun in each of their own ways.  None were started on day one of the server either, so I came in from scratch and took my punishment in stride.  I still get killed, oftentimes I get wailed on badly, but it's still fun.  Other times I deal out the death too, those are better times, especially because I know I earned that kill because of the practice and thought I put into the toon.  Not because some game mechanic made the battle artificially equal because some whiner didn't put the time in that I have.

[Findara]

There are classes that do not stand a chance if the fight is not longer.  I do not understand how they are justifying reducing the damage of conjurer spells.  We have 1 stun, one root, and 2 snares.  Only the stun helps in PVP as a snare, and root does really nothing as every class has the ability to hit you from range.  Yes reduce the tank pet, lower my damage, and make conjurers even worse at PVP.  Sure there are tales of the really good PVP Conj, but yea its one guy.  Mages cant solo PVP an no matter what you do scouts will track us and kill us before we can ramp up enough damage to take them down.  Conjurer need to to have more stuns and stifles stuck on our abilities in PVP and we might stand a chance.  Lowering our already slow damage is only going to make us worse.

[Squishy]

Let's take a moment and see who the AA changes will affect most.  I also have a suggestion about the cap at the bottom.

T2/T3 Lockers ~ Very little for most of them, as only the most hardcore individuals have more than 21 AA at level 14 or even 30 AA at 20.   Even if they lose AA these twinks will still absolutely destroy people.  Why?  Because they will simply have all fabled gear and Master Is.   This AA change will not stop people from perma locking in the lowest tiers and absolutely [Removed for Content] new players.  In fact it will likely promote locking at these levels so you can reach the cap.  It is slowly becoming more and more about those prorated fabled tier 2 drops...like the pestilent javelin which i watched sell yesterday for 25 plat...or the earring of the rat queen another 20 plat seller.

T4/T5 general players ~ Hit the absolute hardest ~ Many of these players in the 30s/40s have worked extremely hard on their characters.  they have adventured far and wide over norrath, completed heritage quests, and killed many a epic mob.   They have earned a great many AA and have learned there class well.    60 AA at level 40 is an absolute joke.   I have 66 AA at lvl 37 as a Guardian.   I have tanked many a named..completed so many quests...and seen many far lands.   Now SoE tells me, sorry man go speed through a few levels to use what you have earned.   I'm not perma locked.  I never massed debt or exploited anything.   These are all quests baby...i wanted to see the world, I think the effort I put into my guard should show off and AA was a great way of showing that. 

 This patch in terms of AA is not going to fix the T2/T3 lockers that it seems to be directed at.   It will only hurt T4/T5 dedicated players, and thus will only promote T2/T3s from staying locked permanately.

 Here is my suggestion, tell me what you guys think.    Heritage quests are only available at certain levels aren't they?  If we have a cap of 1.5X, at least give us a way to work on our characters...and expand this cap a little.  How about for every Heritage Quest completed your cap is expanded by 1 AA?   The quests basically give a whole AA as it is now.   This would make alot of sense, as these quests are suppose to be challenging and rewarding.   Players could complete the HQs and expand there AAs but not to any obscene level.   This would also make the cap a lot less a downer to us T4/T5  because, for example, I've already done 10 HQs.   This would expand my cap from 56 to 66, which is just about the number of AA I have as someone who has worked quite hard on my toon.     This is just a suggestion...i'm really trying to work with this new idea, but the concept of limiting the number of AA usable when they were rightly earned to 30s and 40s seems quite silly.  

[Cogg]

Before I begin, let me tell you I'm a lvl 70 Fury who is specced as much as possible for healing .  All my 94 AAs are spent on buffs,  healing spells and survivability, and all of my adornments are meant to improve my heals and heal crits.  I'm wearing almost full KOS class gear (animist gear, i dont get enough tokens to even have a single piece of PVP gear) and I think my contribution to groups is respectable.  I know how to play my class and I've been thus far able to hold on to my destroyer title even tho I'm regularily solo in T7 zones.  I also know many other furies and have seen how devastating a PVP specced fury can be.  I will tell you this now because a lot of you dont seem to believe it: vs any pvp specced characters, I can only rarely outheal their damage.  I cant begin to tell you how many times I've been caught off guard by a Qeynos stealthy type and had my privates handed to me before I could take 2 steps.  My typical strategy when I get jumped by these types is to use both of my emergency heals on myself and then (depending how much that first barrage hurt) start my heal-over-time or my 'big' heal and then try to close the distance as fast as possible.  I would say that in 1v1 I probably lose more than I win, but I will pretty much always fight until it becomes 2v1 or more vs me.  Realize now that because I'm specced to heal, even against cloth classes any fight is going to take some serious time and a fair bit of luck with my dmg spells not being resisted before I will win.  Also, when the guy i'm fighting has his friends arrive because the fight is going to take longer, my only option is to run away and hopefully I didnt already Pact to catch my target or break a root. Pact of the Cheetah has always been a benefit for me and my groups in PVP.  It enables me to chase down people who sprint or use other runspeed enhancements to get away when things go bad, and it also gives me a sort of 'evac' when a full group of homidarkonyxforce zeroes in on me while i gather pelts.  Now, I should say that it hasn't been clearly stated how this change is going to effect Pact, but I assume that I'll still be able to use it before a fight starts to choose to run.  One of my major concerns is that its use is going to put me in combat if someone has engaged me already (which is generally how I first spot predator classes).  Also, given the poor line of sight issues with spells, its going to be almost impossible to stop a person if they decide to run away mid-fight.  If that person I am 1v1ing has a friend arrive, or someone else shows up (which is so much more likely because the fights are now taking longer), well the fight was just decided.  His friend has out-of-combat runspeed enhancements and so even if i try to run, they'll catch me, probably root me, and I'll get the double team supreme. Every fury I know is upset about this change to Pact, because it is a class defining ability and in many situations it is our best contribution to PvP combat.  Given that the fury is a neutral class, leaving it as it is will not give any faction an advantage.  Also, pact only breaks roots, it does not give players an immunity to root, and as such it is not a guaranteed escape for any fury anyway.  If a fury chooses to stay and fight after they Pact, its pretty easy to dispel the buff away, or root them in place. I am really going to miss my in-combat pact, and also my in-combat AA 10% and my peerless predator upgrade AA.  Its a bit of a triple combo hit straight to the gonads as far as in-combat movement goes for me.  My only hope is that with the dmg reductions, my heals will hopefully be able to keep up with the damage being delivered from range, since i will have no way to close the distance left to me... and that people will stand and fight even when they appear to be losing, because getting away from me will be pretty much cake now.  I suspect the developers have never tried to root someone while chasing them even... with pact i've been able to run along side them and start casting (and thus they're still in-range by the time the casting is complete).

[Raaziell]

Those poor druids! That NERF will kill the class!

/sarcasmoff

Are you [Removed for Content] kidding? Did you guys just came up with that "nerf" just so their names won't be absent from the list?

Class balance man! A druid can heal most classes out of power then finish them off. The only classes with enough damage to give them a bit of pause in healing don't have the stamina to resist too long thanks to the nice damage a druid has. Most classes get a nerf in damage and druids have a reduction on their root effects? Are you insane?

What's next? Nerf their size and give them a track ability.

[shagr1414]

CresentBlade wrote:

shagr1414 wrote:

For now last but not least, I will leave all you scouts with one phrase.....

L2P!!!

You now owe me a new monitor and need to come over my house and clean all the soda off the desk and walls.

The ole' laff'ter loss of soda trick....gets them everytime...

[Lenthar]

Devs:  Instead of eliminating exp debt on pvp servers and taking away the penalty of dying for the pve players who are trying to level up...just take out the "disable combat exp" option on the pvp servers and then you solve the problem of level 16s with 30aa.  That seems to accomplish the same goal and keeps the pve/pvp balanced. I never understood the point of allowing players to disable their own combat exp anyways.   Thanks

[shagr1414]

Magius789 wrote:

I can only comment as a ranger since my main is one.  So our in combat speed increase through the AA line is now what exactly?  other than worthless, having it work out of combat is dumb considering thats what our increased pathfinding does.  Removing the rangers ability to gain distance on their target is only going to result in one thing.  There is going to be a LARGE increase in rangers that sit in places that are not accessible by normal means and picking people off while not being able to be attacked themselves.  Maybe replace that in combat speed increase that is worlthess with an AA ability that reduces the min. distance or else in PvP rangers are now cannon fodder and basically worhtless.

 As for sniper shot I don't care, compared to other classes 15 min. abilities its at the buttom of the list.  Takes to long to cast and ultimately gets more into trouble than it anything else.

It's your job as a Dev to listen to the community and weed out what are the real problems and who are the complainers.  Pretty soon we'll all be playing the same class just like what happened in SWG and we all saw how that turned out.  I'd love these dev's to come sit in on some of my college classes about business; Grade F+.   You got the plus for effort, which is kinder than most of my professors FYI.  They don't give +'s.

rofl ya the result is one thing, either L2P or die.....isnt that what us mages heard for months now from every scout on these forums? l2p l2p l2p??/ well practice now what you preach.... my god scouts getting a slight nerf and all hell breaks loose.  Like I said previously ROL a mage to t7, geared fabled/legendary....when you die in 2 seconds every fight b4 u can even cast a spell, come here and tell us how much we really care about you being able to gain a bit of distance to fire another round at us.

[shagr1414]

HerbertWalker wrote:

Oh I guess being an over-achiever does not pay off in the end.

Thanks for taking away the AA's I earned, without any reasonable justification whatsoever.

Whiners ftw.

Whiners? dude your hiding behind a God mode character and come here WHINING about it.  Lvl up into your AA's and play with the real pvp, this lowbie locking crap needs to go and force people into t7, there isn't nearly enough.  Btw your'e not losing a single AA, you will be required to lvl into them now. Over-achiever isn't what you are btw....your unskilled an require more abilities to kill than others...thats all more Aa has done for your character.  God forbid you are forced to fight vs someone with equal abilites.....WoW needs another mage or Rogue, cancel eq2 and talk to Blizzard....they got what your'e looking for.

[shagr1414]

HerbertWalker wrote:

Unreasonable to me.   If it is easy to achieve lots of AA's, then by T4 it should be no issue.  It's easy for everyone.

Raise the AA caps when it comes to the mid to upper tiers!  This particular change is extremely unfair.

The AA caps should go away starting at level 30 imo.

I lose a ton of AA here, and that is not an across the board change for everyone - just the over achievers.  It took me a dang long time to earn those AA.   Lesson learned - don't get too good at the game.

Ummmm let me clarify somthing for ya then.  A lvl 40ish wiz teamed with a lvl 40is necro can Lifeburn/manaburn a lvl 70 and you do not think having massive AA at lower tiers isn't wrong?

[Luxun]

All these baseless changes are going to do is change the fotm to another class, zerkers anyone ? Aside fro mthe useless changes they are planning to make and unbalance the game even more. What bugs me is this :

                    IS THERE ANY POSSIBLE WAY OF ESCAPING FROM A PVP ENCOUNTER ANYMORE ?

How can you have open enviorment pvp without having any means of escape ? what is the point of having open enviorment pvp if there is going to be no escape ? might as well put us all in arenas insted of zones. What are we goign to do if we are fighting someone suddenly a x4 shows up and rolls on us ? are we suppose to just die ? What happened to people thinking, retreating, ambushing, trying to outthink each other ? does everythign suppose to be straight forward ? Is clicking an attack to engaging in a pvp encounter the crime of murder on eq2 ? once you engage ..thats it, you are dead ?

Seriously ...this is so stupid.

[shagr1414]

sprognak wrote:

I play almost exclusively Qeynos, but have played every class past L20, have a L70 Conjurer and Berserker along with a Troubador, Ranger, Monk and Mystic above L30.  I would consider myself a fairly "neutral" player when looking at the changed from a class perspective.

First the things that have been missed.

1.  Mounts:  Mounts need looking at.  Perhaps limiting the mount runspeed to the players level with a 2xlevel percentage mod on the stat boost.  For example:

L14 player with a 45% mistrunner with the +200 resists.  = 14% runspeed boost, +56 to resists.

L20 player with same horse.  = 20% runspeed boost, +80 to resists

L40 player with same horse = 40% runspeed boost, 160 to resists

L50 player with same horse = 45% runspeed boost, 200 to resists.

That way the horses still give an advantage but are scaled proportionally.

2.  Healing:  Druid healing is going to make them the alpha class.  Shamans and Clerics not as much as their DPS doesn't really allow massive benefits.  I very much doubt a furies PVP dps will be scaled back to a Templars, and if it isn't, their heals need looking at.

3.  Runspeed:  Definately needed nerfing, but this is WAY too much.  Most classes (mage's, scouts and healers) have the +1.3% incombat runspeed mod in the KoS AA line.  I suggest this is LEFT AS IS.  Give Priests, Scouts and Healers the basic 12% incombat runspeed from this AA line.

4.  Wizards:  I don't play a wizard, but this is a kick in the teeth to them.  It depends how it relates to the rest of the nerfs, but this needs scrutiny.

5.  Summoner DPS toning back:  Sorry, what?  I play a 70 Conj fully mastered out and in EoF Legendary set armour with fabled/legendary jewelery.  Granted, in raids I am king of DPS, but in PVP we are the only mage with NO MEANS of reducing damage input (asides from 3 hit stoneskin).  Wizards/Warlocks get manashield, Illusionists get mez (not ideal, but not bad either).  Conjurer's DPS is much lower in PVP than a warlocks - but every single bit we have we NEED!!!

5.  Rangers:  Are you completely off your rocker?  This is just ludicrous.  Lunge root time resists?  Hello?  It's a FOUR SECOND ROOT!!!  How can it possibley get any less?  Snare reduction?  Removal of our 8% incombat runspeed?  Autoattack damage reduction?  Well rangers just became the fame farm for every class...

The rest doesn't look too bad, I'm sure things will show up in testing, but that's my initial views

Well you get a 3 hit stoneskin, necros get nothing.  Our dps requires TIME since its mostly dots, this prolonging pvp is the best news yet.  You have any clue how hard it is to get a spell to land? As a caster im pretty sure u got a good idea....now tack that onto also needing a few moments for any dmg to accumulate.  Now I see nothing but rangers whining on this now....sorry us pet classes and coercers have no sympathy for you. Hopefully now my snares will land on your forcing you to remain 2 inches from my face while my swarms consume you. If i see you attempt to run, fear might now land and you will gain your distance but oooops sorry you have no control, yet my swarms are finally working on you.  Next I simply redot, snare, root if needed or stun/stifle you into submission as your slowly await the inevitable. Your death to a squishy little clothy.   Now thats isn't overpowered, that will never happen with the way things are tuned now.  Now the same scenario with todays settings. 

Snare casted RESIST, yet ive taken 6 Ca's from you in less time it take to even cast this. Go for a fear, nm im stunned, and another 6 ca's are landing.  Cry some more rangers you've had it the broken way for way too long...

[toenukl]

Raaziell wrote:

Those poor druids! That NERF will kill the class!

/sarcasmoff

Are you [I cannot control my vocabulary] kidding? Did you guys just came up with that "nerf" just so their names won't be absent from the list?

Class balance man! A druid can heal most classes out of power then finish them off. The only classes with enough damage to give them a bit of pause in healing don't have the stamina to resist too long thanks to the nice damage a druid has. Most classes get a nerf in damage and druids have a reduction on their root effects? Are you insane?

What's next? Nerf their size and give them a track ability.

In regards to druids they do have some of the larger damage reductions from a class point of view.  Just because they are lacking bullet points doesnt mean they have not been changed.  Their numbers are subject to change as well based off Test PvP feedback so make sure you get your characters copied over and then post your comments or use /feedback. Message edited by Aeralik on 06/07/2007 23:47:28.

---

page 2 of this thread. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I will be first to admit that druids are overpowered(especially in t2-5), but there are at least three more overpowered classes in the game, and I'm glad to see them get their nerfs, along with mine. Anything to better PvP. And, for the record, I rolled Fury day 1 of this server before anyone knew of the overpoweredness. As for PoC, I have no problem with the nerf as long as they make it not throw us into combat as it does now. I never run from a fair fight, and 90% of the time against groups they have a fury w/ PoC as well, or enough snares combined to stop me anyway. So really, not a big loss imo. Now, for the in-combat speed set bonus on our PvP gear, that should either stay in-combat or be changed to something completely different. I agree it makes no sense that our pvp gear can not be used in pvp.... And lastly, for those rangers that are saying L2P and pvp is fine and what not, YES I can heal through your onslaught if a> my instants are up (15mins), b> i am expecting being attacked, and c>you're 1000 flying arrows in 3 seconds do not restart or interrupt my healing, which it usually does. Most of the time a ranger attacks me, in my fabled/legendary w/ all adept3-m2, I am dead before I can get a heal off. I really hope these changes do what the devs are expecting it to, make longer more balanced pvp fights, and not make a new God mode class to replace our current one. I hope to see lots of ppl on PvP Test

[shagr1414]

Virii@Venekor wrote:

Turkish wrote:

I know a lot of people are displeased with the nerfs. I hate to sound insensitive but... I will be renting a luxury sweet at the Palms in Vegas to commemerate the RANGER NERFS!!!! All the Devs who had a hand in these nerfs will be welcome to attend. There will be Krystal, caviar and playboy bunnies. My way of saying thank you for finally taking this insanely overpowered pvp class to a reasonable level. Be careful though, if you nerf them any further, they may have to start using... (gasp)... skill!

Can't Disagree with you more!!!  I'm all for nerfs,  I don't mind if they lower our damage.  But what they are doing to rangers is making them completly useless.  The only way we do ANY damage is to be at ranged.  Melee we do 1/10th of the damage.  Reduce our ablitly to keep you away from us and we are a useless class.

If you want to nerf rangers lower our damage not take away our chance.

Yet caster must subdue to your abilities as they are now? You wanna see uselss sir...roll a mage.

[Echgar]

I sat down to catch up on this thread since my last visit and was pleasantly surprised to see so much good, constructive discussion! It is clear that you all are quite knowledgeable as well as passionate about these changes.  Please keep in mind, however, if you are making an effort to read and reply to the posts of others here that having a different opinion about something will happen and it isn't necessarily wrong.  There is no need to beat each other silly to "win" your argument (and it also happens to be against the forum rules). While I am not a developer, I have been enjoying the good discussion here.  Keep it up!

[Microbolt]

shagr1414 wrote:

Virii@Venekor wrote:

Turkish wrote:

I know a lot of people are displeased with the nerfs. I hate to sound insensitive but... I will be renting a luxury sweet at the Palms in Vegas to commemerate the RANGER NERFS!!!! All the Devs who had a hand in these nerfs will be welcome to attend. There will be Krystal, caviar and playboy bunnies. My way of saying thank you for finally taking this insanely overpowered pvp class to a reasonable level. Be careful though, if you nerf them any further, they may have to start using... (gasp)... skill!

Can't Disagree with you more!!!  I'm all for nerfs,  I don't mind if they lower our damage.  But what they are doing to rangers is making them completly useless.  The only way we do ANY damage is to be at ranged.  Melee we do 1/10th of the damage.  Reduce our ablitly to keep you away from us and we are a useless class.

If you want to nerf rangers lower our damage not take away our chance.

Yet caster must subdue to your abilities as they are now? You wanna see uselss sir...roll a mage.

Casters definatly need some attention.  IMO you shouldn't get as many resists as you do.  But, just because there are broken classes out there doesn't mean they need to add to the list.  They need to work on removing classes from that list.

[Stashe]

even though i'm still just a days-old newb to EQ2, im a years-old veteran of mmo's, going back to EQ1 item/coin loot on Tallon Zek. still, it really doesn't take long to get the picture when it comes to pre-20 pvp. Not like it's gonna last more than another 8 lvls, and not like i can't handle a few gankings during a session. I "grew a set" many moons ago, and all the lvl 14's in blackened iron and max AA's don't mean a gawdamn thing to me. HOWEVER, my thick skin is probably a rarity, and if people hear that pvp in EQ2 sucks because of twinks and whathave you, we're all gonna be missing out on alot of new players to kill and be killed by. There's at least a couple thousand Vanguard pvp refugees (ok, a couple hundred. ok, five.) looking for a good game. I should know. In my relatively uninformed opinion, these changes are a very good thing for the health of the pvp servers, and a definate move in the right direction. Having come directly from Tharridon, i can tell you that a robust population is one of the most crucial factors for a good mmo, ESPECIALLY on a pvp server. I would definately go even further, in the following ways... 1. AA's should scale up only past lvl 20, lets say. Or maybe a better way to put it, the AA cap should be even lower for pre-20's, by a proportional amount based on yer level. Gear, we can deal with, AA's probably shouldn't play as much of a role in low-level pvp as they do now.  If i was good at mathematics, i'd give you a formula, but i think thats pretty clear.  Low level pvp should not be a "sure thing" for farming uber pvp gear. It's contradictory to good game design. 2. If you nerf damage in pvp, you must nerf heals as well. Good luck figuring out the mechanics of that, but it's really necessary. Again i refer to VG, dmg was reduced, but heals were not, and right now, clerics are the most powerful, unbeatable class in the history of any game, anywhere. otherwise, good luck with it on Test server, and here's to having a good PvP setup for once in our [Removed for Content] lives.

[orehn]

I've been thinking quite a bit about these changes, and from my dual perspective of T7 and T3 I think overall this will work towards the ultimate goal of longer fights.  There are countless different factors that can come into play during longer fights, and not just the obvious factor where additional people happen to run by and join in a longer fight.  A few classes have, since day one been of the 'quick kill' variety, and it looks like these classes may have to adapt.  I think it really just comes down to a question of how far is damage going to be scaled down? The changes to debt and AA's in the lower tiers did in fact need to be looked at, and even as one of those dreaded twinked level lockers I can safely say that it's overpowered and isn't skill.  While no one here can convince me that PvP is not fun in tiers other then seven, I just can't bring myself to say that my AA's and gear aren't the root cause for many of my kills.  I chuckle about it, even when I feel bad because I don't see myself as uber-I just see myself as having fun with the few friends who've yet to leave. A few class specific comments, and a suggestion for the problem of level locking and twinking will follow... Clothies in general - I really don't think they need to be hit so hard, let's be honest here; cloth casters are for the most part in sorry shape and have been all along.  The resist rate changes will be good, as long as they are enough to in some ways negate the damage nerf that many of them are about to be hit with.  If you want fights to last longer for all of your subscribers, look into giving the cloth casters some way of increased survivability because even if you take away some of my T7 scout's burst, I am still at an advantage. Rangers and Assassins - All in all, I understand the reason for changing Sniper Shot, Assassinate, and Decapitate but what I don't get are the additional changes.  Let's be honest here, these are the two biggest 'quick kill' classes out there.  They survive outside of a group setting because they are able to quickly turn the tide in their favor with their big attacks.  I'm not saying they'll be unable to adapt, I'm just saying that some of the additional changes to snares and roots might, rather tip the scales out of their favor instead of balancing everything in general. Run Speed - I like this change even if it means many a fury now has wasted points in their AA line.  It's been suggested before so I'll only mention it here but perhaps with all of these changes an overall reset of AA's that might allow redistribution between trees for all characters would be the right way to go.  With changes that are going to be so sweeping, so game-changing, wouldn't it be nice to at least throw us all a bone and give us the chance to move out of those areas that are changing? Twinks and Level-locking - The AA change will not do a thing to stop it, neither will the removal of debt.  Even if you cap AA's at 1/level, I am still going to be heavily advantaged in PvP against anyone not geared as I am.  The only way I can think of to really fix this, what must be the biggest problem in the game if you are to believe other posts on this forum is to spread these damage "nerfs" all the way down.  I am going to be honest here, even if I can only have 25 AA's at level 25, I am still going to kill all of your new players with impunity.  I don't plan on doing that, I want to level up-I just want to do it at my own pace rather then the pace set by the percentage of experience I get per mob killed.  If that is wrong of me then I've never been right. All in all, good changes; and thank you for listening as you've done so far. Awesome, lowbie assassin Leopole, highbie swashbuckler ect, ect

[Eybietie]

all you gotta do vs a brig : pop a freedom of mind potion. that is it. maybe get a trauma cure potion so you can cancel dispatch too. yeah brigs really needed that nerf. of course. swashies still got reach - druids will be the most powerfull class untill the next nerf called by the carebears. soe should check if the complains come of of solo *pvp* ers... warhammer online - i hope they don´t mess that up tbh.

[phil1244]

Well since everyone is talking about how much there class will get hurt and they will lose whats its all about to be a scout, mage, ect.. i thought i'd talk about how it would help out the mystic/defiler ..All I've ever wanted is to make a pvp run and not get watch my dog get killed with half a shot "poor Cujo"  But i guess the devs can't take anything from a class that has nothing.  The worst pvp class  in all the of the game the Shaman.  At any lvl the Shamans have been on the receiving end of the nasty Stuns, stiles, Mezzes and knockbacks delivered by all the big GUNS of the PvP world.  One of my favorite things is when people say over vent look at Pile chasing down that {class}.  Which is a VERY Very rare thing when i'm alone  :p.  With no dps at hand and a constantly intrupted ward or heal due to lack of dps the Shaman poseses fight 1v1.  all the Complaining on the forums won't change what happens on the test server.  so lets just get out there enjoy the game i do even though i die a lot.  It eats me up to see any class tear though my wards before i can even take a shot at them.  over 7k in wards blown in a matter of seconds cause someone smacks my dog with one shot and destorys the wards; then they start working me with there big shots.

If u haven't noticed while playing during PvP some of the best times where the closest fights where ur favorites; i think this will help bring out much more of these close fights.  i know mine are even though i've lost my share of them; its the last second of whats gonna happen and whos gonna pull it out of there...sses.  I am partically speced for PvP and raiding but thats how i choose to play the game.  U win some u loose some. 

                                                                                                                                                    ~Pile ~Reckoning                      

                                                                                                                                             

     

[Mildavyn]

Changed the name to protect the over-powered.

(1181397692)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:32 2007] Ranger_01 critically hits YOU for 1648 crushing damage. (1181397692)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:32 2007] Ranger_01's Quick Shot hits YOU for 223 crushing damage. (1181397692)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:32 2007] Ranger_01 hits YOU for 1200 crushing damage. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] You begin to play an incapacitation song. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] Ranger_01's Triple Volley critically hits YOU for 147 crushing damage. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] Ranger_01's gracelessness afflicts you. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] Ranger_01's Triple Volley critically hits YOU for 334 crushing damage. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] Ranger_01's Triple Volley critically hits YOU for 648 crushing damage. (1181397694)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:34 2007] You have entered into combat by casting Reverie on Ranger_01. (1181397694)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:34 2007] Ranger_01 was interrupted! (1181397694)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:34 2007] An incapacitation song affects Ranger_01.

That is the log of a fight between myself and Ranger_01. That incapacitation song you see landing there is my mez, which was followed by charm and then evac, I had no chance of winning that fight.

Ranger_01 hit me for 4200 damage in the time it took me to cast my Mez (1.87 seconds) and I already had a target and was spamming the mez key so it'd go off as soon as Ranger_01 got into range. In less that 2 seconds, Ranger_01 cut me down to around 20-30%. I sit around 45% mitigation and 50% avoidance, yet Ranger_01 didnt miss once, and that DOUBLE auto attack did 2848 damage. I'm in almost full fabled and as far as I know, only one troubador on the server has better gear.

If i hadn't had track and had Ranger_01t argeted, AND had a building to hide behind, I'd have been dead before i knew what was happening. I laugh at anyone who says rangers will be useless after these nerfs. In that parse, I don't see Sniper shot, i dont see any roots or snares, all I see is Ranger_01 doing massive damage in less than 2 seconds. Now imagine if the poisons had procced as well, or whatever I interupted had landed? I'd have been dead in less than 2 seconds.

Yeah, Ranger's are going to be completely gimped after these changes /sarcasm

[Luxun]

I honestly don't care much for the class changes. It happens in every mmo, what I liek to bring up again in this topic is locking players down in pvp combat and disabling any escape path or method.

I mean lets look at this, we don't battlegrounds or we would be playing wow, we like OPEN enviorment pvp. Now note the word OPEN. In open fields pvp, the player vs player factor isn't just one class vs another. It is the enviorment and the ability to utilize it.  Major part of any battle is defence, retreating and staying alive, basiclly in one word "surviving". Surviving in pvp is no longer possible. If you engage in a pvp combat it is the crime of murder in EQ2, you are locked in combat, all of means of escape or surviving against major odss is dimished, once you engagae in a pvp combat you should burn in hell because ofyour crime to click the CA key and attack another player.

This really bugs me, how can we have battles where there are no means of escape ? I agree some of the in-combat run speeds were over powered, but then there are counter to that ..roots, snares, ect ..what exactly is the point of having snare/root if everyone is ognan be runnign at same speed ? What happens to strategy ? What happened tp trying to draw yourenemy and trap them so they couldn't escape ? Also what yo uare saying is, if im fighting someone and a x4 shows up and rolls on me, I have no way of escaping ? Keeping myself alive ? I have to die ? It really makes no sense to me.

[Strelok7]

Dear Dev's with all respect,

 Why making any changes at all, a some of players who is sending you their whinning about 1 class is better and uber then other class has more damage output then other ------- it's not about what class u playing it's about how u play your class, any class can beat any other class, all good pvp players know to use potions u can take off pretty much anything exept mezz, it's about how careful u are ----- are u looking at your target buffs? it's about how fast u can think in combat situation and calculate before u make a move, it about knowing who u fighting agaist and knowing your own toon.

 Someone will say pvp belt make u unbeatble, u see belt on his run him off, u got mezz --- mezz him , u got fear  -- fear him,stifle --- stifle him, stun ---- stun him, there is many ways to make it easyer in battle.

 Sincerely

70 Swashbuckler  --- Headshot ---- Vox Server Exiled

70 Brig  ---- Suny  --- Nagafen Server

[Badaxe Ba]

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

Changed the name to protect the over-powered.

(1181397692)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:32 2007] Ranger_01 critically hits YOU for 1648 crushing damage. (1181397692)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:32 2007] Ranger_01's Quick Shot hits YOU for 223 crushing damage. (1181397692)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:32 2007] Ranger_01 hits YOU for 1200 crushing damage. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] You begin to play an incapacitation song. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] Ranger_01's Triple Volley critically hits YOU for 147 crushing damage. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] Ranger_01's gracelessness afflicts you. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] Ranger_01's Triple Volley critically hits YOU for 334 crushing damage. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] Ranger_01's Triple Volley critically hits YOU for 648 crushing damage. (1181397694)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:34 2007] You have entered into combat by casting Reverie on Ranger_01. (1181397694)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:34 2007] Ranger_01 was interrupted! (1181397694)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:34 2007] An incapacitation song affects Ranger_01.

That is the log of a fight between myself and Ranger_01. That incapacitation song you see landing there is my mez, which was followed by charm and then evac, I had no chance of winning that fight.

Ranger_01 hit me for 4200 damage in the time it took me to cast my Mez (1.87 seconds) and I already had a target and was spamming the mez key so it'd go off as soon as Ranger_01 got into range. In less that 2 seconds, Ranger_01 cut me down to around 20-30%. I sit around 45% mitigation and 50% avoidance, yet Ranger_01 didnt miss once, and that DOUBLE auto attack did 2848 damage. I'm in almost full fabled and as far as I know, only one troubador on the server has better gear.

If i hadn't had track and had Ranger_01t argeted, AND had a building to hide behind, I'd have been dead before i knew what was happening. I laugh at anyone who says rangers will be useless after these nerfs. In that parse, I don't see Sniper shot, i dont see any roots or snares, all I see is Ranger_01 doing massive damage in less than 2 seconds. Now imagine if the poisons had procced as well, or whatever I interupted had landed? I'd have been dead in less than 2 seconds.

Yeah, Ranger's are going to be completely gimped after these changes /sarcasm

Hey Paikis, I see in your sig you have a 4-1 kill ratio, you don't do so bad yourself.  Lets not forget that a ranger has to fill an AA line in order to achieve double shot, whilst quick shot is a ranger's offensive stance buff, which only has a chance to proc, not guaranteed.  Ranger-01 probably had to use his focus aim buff in order to land that crit hit the first time, and that damage comes from 'strategically' spending AA's in order to achieve those results.  Obviously you don't see any roots or snares, because ranger-01 attacked you from range, knowing his melee damage is practically nonexistant.  Of course rangers aren't going to run up and start swinging! 

On another note, if you went into combat, how exactly did you evac? Hmmm? Could it be a faction based pvp item was used? 

Not that that really matters, but if ranger-01's incombat speed is drastically reduced,  snares and roots lowered to practically nothing,  autoattack damage greatly decreased, a skilled player such as yourself will obviously be able to pawn ranger-01 from now on. 

[Toadley]

The brig nerfs are enough to make me wanna go swash

Nerfing our two best debuffs - I understand if you nerfed one, did ya have to do both?

Nerfing our stun duration - Meh, not a big deal

Turning double up to single up - This will drop my dps to about 1k less every min. I wouldnt really mind it, yet with the other brig nerfs it adds up and seems abit overwelming at the time.

Wont really know for sure untill I have pvped with these new nerfs, but swashbucklers are looking better and better. Reach omgz!

[sprogn]

shagr1414 wrote:

Well you get a 3 hit stoneskin, necros get nothing.  Our dps requires TIME since its mostly dots, this prolonging pvp is the best news yet.  You have any clue how hard it is to get a spell to land? As a caster im pretty sure u got a good idea....now tack that onto also needing a few moments for any dmg to accumulate.  Now I see nothing but rangers whining on this now....sorry us pet classes and coercers have no sympathy for you. Hopefully now my snares will land on your forcing you to remain 2 inches from my face while my swarms consume you. If i see you attempt to run, fear might now land and you will gain your distance but oooops sorry you have no control, yet my swarms are finally working on you.  Next I simply redot, snare, root if needed or stun/stifle you into submission as your slowly await the inevitable. Your death to a squishy little clothy.   Now thats isn't overpowered, that will never happen with the way things are tuned now.  Now the same scenario with todays settings. 

Snare casted RESIST, yet ive taken 6 Ca's from you in less time it take to even cast this. Go for a fear, nm im stunned, and another 6 ca's are landing.  Cry some more rangers you've had it the broken way for way too long...

Agree with most of what you said, but 3 hit stoneskin does absolutely sweet-FA in PVP unless you're playing a very stupid Wizard.  However Necro's do get lifetaps, stifle, stun and fear.

All Conj's get is a daze (oh whoopie) and stun....

And now they want to [Removed for Content] both of us even more....

[sprogn]

phil1244 wrote:

Well since everyone is talking about how much there class will get hurt and they will lose whats its all about to be a scout, mage, ect.. i thought i'd talk about how it would help out the mystic/defiler ..All I've ever wanted is to make a pvp run and not get watch my dog get killed with half a shot "poor Cujo"  But i guess the devs can't take anything from a class that has nothing.  The worst pvp class  in all the of the game the Shaman.  At any lvl the Shamans have been on the receiving end of the nasty Stuns, stiles, Mezzes and knockbacks delivered by all the big GUNS of the PvP world.  One of my favorite things is when people say over vent look at Pile chasing down that {class}.  Which is a VERY Very rare thing when i'm alone  :p.  With no dps at hand and a constantly intrupted ward or heal due to lack of dps the Shaman poseses fight 1v1.  all the Complaining on the forums won't change what happens on the test server.  so lets just get out there enjoy the game i do even though i die a lot.  It eats me up to see any class tear though my wards before i can even take a shot at them.  over 7k in wards blown in a matter of seconds cause someone smacks my dog with one shot and destorys the wards; then they start working me with there big shots.

If u haven't noticed while playing during PvP some of the best times where the closest fights where ur favorites; i think this will help bring out much more of these close fights.  i know mine are even though i've lost my share of them; its the last second of whats gonna happen and whos gonna pull it out of there...sses.  I am partically speced for PvP and raiding but thats how i choose to play the game.  U win some u loose some. 

                                                                                                                                                    ~Pile ~Reckoning                      

                                                                                                                                             

     

I guess you're playing a Defiler?  Because I've seen L70 Mystics stand toe to toe with Brigands/Assassins/Bruisers/Exileds Swashies and Rangers and come out laughing.

I think the fight may be swayed because of the investment of AA's into your pet which isn't exactly a bad thing, but is definately not a PVP spec.

The one class our guild swash absolutely loaths fighting is defilers/mystics because he knows unless they're only playing with one hand, he's gonna die.

[Vydar]

General

• Damage was reduced at the higher levels based on class. Rogues, predators, sorcerers and summoners had the greatest reduction.  Druids, enchanters and brawlers fall in the middle while the others had lower amounts of damage reduction.  The goal being to introduce more strategy in PvP at the high end. How much of a damage cut?  These classes are supposed to, by definition, have superior damage output.  How does this promote more strategy by removing the purpose behind a character's existence?
• In combat run speeds will now suspend during PvP cmbat, except for the bard achievement which grants in-combat run speed to Selo's.  So... what's wrong with running?  That's not strategical? 
• XP debt has been removed from pvp servers.  Excellent.

Assassin

• Reduced the duration of the root effect for the Freezing Strike line.  Why?  We got our stifle nerfed (not too bad, i can see why), now we get our root nerfed?  in combat movement is nerfed, so it won't be as bad, and we can cast most our CA's mid combat... but one way an assassin does business is to kill someone who strayed away from the herd then keep fighting.  This can't happen if we can't hold them.
• Reduced the damage of Assassinate and Decapitate.  Probably not a problem, just depends how much it was cut.  It's already not much more damage than Killing Blade in PvP.  Again, removing what makes a damage dealing class damage dealing...

Brigand

• Double up should only work on spells cast in the last second instead of last 2 seconds. Stupid.  Brigands are also DPS.  Let them remain so.
• Lowered the debuff amount on Devitalize and Dispatch.       So... its been nerfed twice now... and their dps is lowered... gg crippling them.
• Reduced the stun duration on the Low Blow line.  I can understand that... chain stuns are tough... but by how much?

Bruiser

• Reduced the duration of Drag Bad idea.  It's only 5 seconds, and breaks combat, so I can hit evac as soon as a Monk drags me. 

Coercer

• Lowered the damage done by Cataclysmic mind and its associated spells. Right, cuz coercers are regularly running around ganking people.  Come on now.  Of all classes?

Fury

• Reduced the duration of the root line.  By how much?  already furies have a tough time with damage output, now they can't keep their target?

Monk

• The Evade achievement should now cause your target to lose its target like scout evade skills do. Too bad this doesn't work properly?  Even with timing done, it doesn't help too much.  let's say a wizard is casting ice Comet... I hit elude... they're still mid casting... i still get nailed.  What good did that do?

Ranger

• The Hunter's Instinct line will now buff out of combat speed rather than in combat speed.
• Reduced the duration and range of Hook Arrow  Thank the almighty God in heaven.  Hook Shot is one of the most overused cheap kills in the game.
• Reduced the root duration of the Lung line
• Reduced the snare duration on the Leg Shot line.
• Reduced the damage done by the Sniper Shot line. Not sure why... not like it was a great attack in the first place... never one shots anyone, and hard to pull off mid combat.

Necromancer

• Lowered the duration of control effects on the fighter pet. Necro's need buffs.  not nerfs.  make the tank pet actually do its job and taunt. 

Shadowknight

• Reduced the damage to the Harm Touch line. Can they get a lower damage deduction on other attacks then? 

Swashbuckler

• Lowered the damage on Inspired Daring
• Lowered the damage to En Garde.  It will also now use mitigation and can be dodged, blocked, parried and deflected in PvP combat. I can see this... by how much?

 Warden

• Reduced the duration of Root and Snare lines. See fury comment.

Wizard

• Reduced the damage of Ice Comet Rather than remove damage output, remove knockback imo.  Sure, let wizards do huge amounts of damage.  its their job. 
• Reduced the damage of Fusion
• Changed Manashield to 2 points of mana removed for every 1 point of HP.  Why?  12k HP bar if you combine HP and Mana, and now everyone does less damage. 

Items

• Reduced the damage and heal on the Signet of Light From Darkness. Yay for making good gear not so... good...
• Lowered the Malicious Assault bonus on the Brigand Interloper's Coat.
• The effect on the Belt of Gateways has been changed from 100% riposte to 100% parry. Crap.  Has a LONG reuse timer, only lasts for 10 seconds, and it gets a nerf?  Come on now.

In general, what I see is they want all pvp fights to last all night.  This means less deaths, less rewards for deaths (see less tokens), more frustration, etc.  I don't see good strategy changes.  I don't see anything that will really fix problems. Remove titles.  Change immunity rules again.  Change cloud rules.  Fix exploits.  Stop farmers.  Toons that are sold on SE need their titles removed.  Stop making damage classes not so damage classes.  Lame.

[Gaeus]

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

Changed the name to protect the over-powered.

(1181397692)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:32 2007] Ranger_01 critically hits YOU for 1648 crushing damage. (1181397692)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:32 2007] Ranger_01's Quick Shot hits YOU for 223 crushing damage. (1181397692)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:32 2007] Ranger_01 hits YOU for 1200 crushing damage. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] You begin to play an incapacitation song. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] Ranger_01's Triple Volley critically hits YOU for 147 crushing damage. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] Ranger_01's gracelessness afflicts you. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] Ranger_01's Triple Volley critically hits YOU for 334 crushing damage. (1181397693)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:33 2007] Ranger_01's Triple Volley critically hits YOU for 648 crushing damage. (1181397694)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:34 2007] You have entered into combat by casting Reverie on Ranger_01. (1181397694)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:34 2007] Ranger_01 was interrupted! (1181397694)[Sun Jun 10 00:01:34 2007] An incapacitation song affects Ranger_01.

That is the log of a fight between myself and Ranger_01. That incapacitation song you see landing there is my mez, which was followed by charm and then evac, I had no chance of winning that fight.

Ranger_01 hit me for 4200 damage in the time it took me to cast my Mez (1.87 seconds) and I already had a target and was spamming the mez key so it'd go off as soon as Ranger_01 got into range. In less that 2 seconds, Ranger_01 cut me down to around 20-30%. I sit around 45% mitigation and 50% avoidance, yet Ranger_01 didnt miss once, and that DOUBLE auto attack did 2848 damage. I'm in almost full fabled and as far as I know, only one troubador on the server has better gear.

If i hadn't had track and had Ranger_01t argeted, AND had a building to hide behind, I'd have been dead before i knew what was happening. I laugh at anyone who says rangers will be useless after these nerfs. In that parse, I don't see Sniper shot, i dont see any roots or snares, all I see is Ranger_01 doing massive damage in less than 2 seconds. Now imagine if the poisons had procced as well, or whatever I interupted had landed? I'd have been dead in less than 2 seconds.

Yeah, Ranger's are going to be completely gimped after these changes /sarcasm

    It's posts like this that should be seen more often.  If any player, ranger or not doesn't feel this is just a gross show of pure overpowered bullcrap, they are either the lowest form of an idiot or simply delusional on the highest level.  Paikis shows in black and white the numbers you cannot even argue with this.  Rangers, you need nerfed.      Incombat runspeeds, they need nerfed and or adjusted.  For obvious reasons all of us in pvp know why.     I play a warlock now, and worry a little about my damage and just how much it will be diminished, but perhaps with overall scout damage being reduced maybe it will all balance out so I can stand a chance versus an equally geared scout of the same level regardless if my dps is lessened.     Really all the caterwauling and crying about the nerfs is unnecessary simply because, until it goes live we really have no way of knowing exactly how it will impact pvp and the game.  I am just happy to see they are putting effort and thought into trying to even the playing field a bit.  Hopefully it works out for all so all can enjoy the game more, which is what the devs are trying to do here.     Kalu, Warlock of venekor