Constructive Feedback Only plz! - Page 2

IBSomnifer · 02-23-2006, 01:05 AM

No don't thank him for his post....its a BS PR response. This is something that should have been tested on test....not "looked" at or watched on LIVE. I'm so sick of your Sh** SoE. You keep boasting how yall are always "doing this for the best of the game and its players"...and how the money isn't the reason behind certain changes. The reason all of the Flawed changes go live is because you didn't care ENOUGH to put the game and its players before your deadline/bottom line. Take the time to make sure its right...you loose plenty of players everytime you do this, and you havn't learned your lesson yet.

Heres some feedback...put more harvesting nodes in some safe areas. For the short time i was able to search between zone crashes...I spied far too many nodes guarded by mobs. Mobs that arn't really soloable now...thanks. Who knows [Removed for Content] you "intend" for the game anymore cause you change it almost daily...but:

-If you want us to kite, or be able to, gear our spell lines more towards that for soloability.(arrows while running, traps that work)

-If you plan on making us solo upclose...increase our melee DPS.

-Our bows you have much higher damage rating then they are since they are considered a 2-handed weapon. a teir 6 rare bow is around 46 damage raiting(same as 1handed mace) while a 2 handed sword or hammer is higher? some of the teir 6 fabled swords were getting up to 70+ damage rating. Its time to start thinking about it.

-We should have a lot more choices for bows than 4 at teir 6. short or long. rare or common. If you are a ranger...then you have 1 bow to choose from lol. This goes for all teirs....its sad.

Message Edited by IBSomnifer on 02-22-200603:41 PM

Blackguard · 02-23-2006, 01:06 AM

Bithnar wrote:
BG I would like to make a suggestion.
Dont use all Adept 3 skills, because not everyone can aford them or find the rares to have them made. Use a few sure because we all try to get a few of our more used skills there, but mix em up a few Adept 3's, Adept 1's and App 4's. Also, not sure how your test character are made, ie where they get their gear, but give yourself coin and then buy poisons and arrows and see how fast you go through the coinage to see what we have to do. Buy your poisons/arrows from a broker/vendor like we do, dont just "create" them out of thin air. Using the summoned arrow line is fine though :smileyvery-happy:

Sorry, the "App III" was a typo and should have read "App II." Everything I give myself is going to be the lower-end tradeskilled gear (i.e. no rares required) or things that can be easily purchased at a merchant. I may mix in Apprentice IV spells as well, but I plan on definitely using nothing Legendary or higher. Poisons, of course, will be Handcrafted quality and I'm only going to use one poison (a DoT). It can be tough to simulate what a character would normally have, which is why I'm going with equipment that anyone could acquire.

SIlly Muffin · 02-23-2006, 01:06 AM

4. I dont want utility. Yep you heard me, if I wanted utility I would have rolled a bard or rogue class. I want DPS and I want to be matching everyother T1 DPS class.

I have to disagree a tad here. I think in part it makes sense magic users are a tad ahead - it makes genre sense. The problem in part isnt that rangers dont do DPS its just that we've turned the issue into number a crunching game thats out of whack with the ideal of role of rangers. I think there IS a role for unique utility in the class that would help it maximize the DPS it does have. I am almost thinking that we dont need super DPS as much as we need "smart DPS" in the way of utility - like more roots, stuns and critical hits (ie knockdowns, ripostes and bows in melee). I dont think any fantasy lore even has portayed rangers as wielders of "brutal" damage; but rather as canny fighters who can defeat an opponent using skills and tricks.

Muffin

xentavius · 02-23-2006, 01:07 AM

Looks like they got rid of craftable ap II's... first 3 levels are Ap III with last being ap IV

A · 02-23-2006, 01:10 AM

Some more feedback :

- The last AA in the agi path reduces casting time of CAs by 35%, does it mean that with this AA our proc rate will be even lower on CAs ?

- I feel with all the others changes there was really no need to make the crippling arrow/debilitating arrow line not work on the move, don't you think enough was done already ?

- With the proc rate change there is really no need to prevent multi attack CAs to have a chance of a proc at every attack....

- Watching the AAs I can see how before the changes ranger damage would have been even higher with KoS ( poison crit rate + 74% for example). However was the right way to fix this to reduce rangers damage overall that much or wouldn't have it been better to modify the AAs ?

Edit : More on AAs

- The 4th Int line AA when maxed is a 74% chance of critical damage on poison. If in average a critical is double damage ( it can be more or less) and considering that before LU 20 poison was roughly 35% of rangers's damage, that single AA would have boosted ranger dps by roughly 26% ( 35*0.75). I can see how that would be an issue.

- The 4th Agi Line AA when maxed is a 22% chance of critical damage on ranged attacks. Ranged attacks are roughly 30% of rangers's damage pre LU 20, once again this would have been a 7% damage increase with one AA. Combining both you over 35% dps increase due to those 2 AAs.

My belief is that AA were not supposed to impact the game that much, instead of modifying AAs so that they have less impact you choose another way, one I believe which was less well thought and creates more issues in the future ( you didn't fix anything regarding to the critical poison AAs, now if you introduce some weapons with a high proc rate so that procs become a high percentage of someone's damage they can once again greatly increase their overall dps by picking that AAs...

The real big issue is your implementation of a few AAs and then yes the fact that rangers damage needed to be tuned down a little, sadly you failed to see this....

Message Edited by Ail on 02-22-200612:59 PM

Runewind · 02-23-2006, 01:13 AM

Since BG does appear to be watching this thread I am going to politely ask a question. If rangers are nerfed more than intended (and I suspect they are) how long do you estimate it will be before things are evened out? Just a rough estimate. I'm just worried is all.Also just a sugestion to help your research but when you test out your ranger try to test him/her out in groups with other T1 DPS classes to make a comparison. I think that would be the best way to get good research.

Message Edited by TwistedRiddles on 02-22-200612:20 PM

IBSomnifer · 02-23-2006, 01:27 AM

Ail wrote:
Some more feedback :
- The last AA in the agi path reduces casting time of CAs by 35%, does it mean that with this AA our proc rate will be even lower on CAs ?

Yea I really had a GOOD HARD laugh at that when i saw it last night. [Removed for Content] would I want to proc LESS? I also think they specified that it would only help long cast and recast timers...not short cast time spells. Things like sniper shot and triple arrow i guess. Things I barely use anyway. I also believe there is one that has to do with reducing casting times of spells...not combat arts...I could be mistaken though. With all the red i'm seeing its hard to focus lol. The AAs were poorly thought out and generally useless to most classes...i'm glad they are put in thought lol. Only a few will be usefull to classes.

Message Edited by IBSomnifer on 02-22-200603:30 PM

tentim · 02-23-2006, 01:38 AM

Blackguard wrote:
Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback. We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will make changes if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out with handcrafted gear and App II spells at every 10 level range to check them out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty much every class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll be discussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not the only one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well.
Message Edited by Blackguard on 02-22-200612:03 PM

How come you can pay close attention to Rangers and you won't listen to, or even visit the class boards of, other classes. Please go read the Wizard forum.

I'm not for Ranger nerfing for the record btw - just annyoed that BG yet again pampers fighter classes and totally ignores pure casters (we got stealth nerfed with KoS on our spells, so because they lied about it they won't discuss it)

klepp · 02-23-2006, 01:39 AM

lol it dont add up like that... and for the record you only get $$ if you get the killshot.. which isnt very often w/ our dps now..

klepp · 02-23-2006, 01:41 AM

nice post valleyboy

Star · 02-23-2006, 01:44 AM

Blackguard wrote:
Sorry, the "App III" was a typo and should have read "App II." Everything I give myself is going to be the lower-end tradeskilled gear (i.e. no rares required) or things that can be easily purchased at a merchant. I may mix in Apprentice IV spells as well, but I plan on definitely using nothing Legendary or higher. Poisons, of course, will be Handcrafted quality and I'm only going to use one poison (a DoT). It can be tough to simulate what a character would normally have, which is why I'm going with equipment that anyone could acquire.

This sounds like a good test though BG, maybe earing a bit on the side of under powered compared to the average player. I think it's better to stay on that side and if you maybe can get some of your partners there to make some other classes to grp with and parse. I kid not when I say I was regularly out DPSed by what I whought were Tier 2 classes last night. :smileysad:

Drevva · 02-23-2006, 01:44 AM

I have only been playing my ranger solo since the changes. So will keep my comments constrained to that area.I have no desire to be able to solo ^^^ heroics. But I do want to solo the solo content well and as a dps we should be able to.The changes have force us into a gimpy melee role when soloing if some of our long recast arts aren't up, and we get the crap beat out of us.Give us the ability to shoot in close range, or give us the ability to root. I want to be using my bow at least 70% of the fight. Our combat arts need faster recasts now. We need an ability to stun a single up ^ for more than 2 secs.Or up our dmg. If upping our dmg messes up our group /raid dmg then give us point blank shooting ability. This won't change group/raid parses but will give us some soloing ability, some faster recasts would help to...If we are going to be forced to pay for our dmg, it should be worth it. This area does cause some contention. Should our dmg be better because we pay for it? my thought would be at least a little.I'm disappointed these changes went in with so light thought to solo/small group play. My confidence in the devs is a bit shaken, but I'm hopefull this gets worked out quickly.

Guard_Ra · 02-23-2006, 01:45 AM

The game in whole and more specifically Rangers have become way too reliant on poisons and procs for dmg. IMO both do way more dmg then they should and should be reduced to give minor benefits or dmg boosts. However, as many have pointed out our DPS has been reduced dramatically. To bring us back inline where we should be, you should be looking at modifying our CA's raw dmg output, as well in reducing cast and re-use times or both where applicable.

In the couple hours i was able to play last night, it was a button smash fest hoping i did enough dmg with my opening bow shot so i could grind the mob down.

TwistedFaith · 02-23-2006, 01:50 AM

Blackguard wrote:
Bithnar wrote:
BG I would like to make a suggestion.
Dontuse all Adept 3 skills, because not everyone can aford them or find therares to have them made. Use a few sure because we all try to geta few of our more used skills there, but mix em up a few Adept 3's,Adept 1's and App 4's. Also, not sure how your test character aremade, ie where they get their gear, but give yourself coin and then buypoisons and arrows and see how fast you go through the coinage to seewhat we have to do. Buy your poisons/arrows from a broker/vendorlike we do, dont just "create" them out of thin air. Using thesummoned arrow line is fine though :smileyvery-happy:
Sorry,the "App III" was a typo and should have read "App II." Everything Igive myself is going to be the lower-end tradeskilled gear (i.e. norares required) or things that can be easily purchased at a merchant. Imay mix in Apprentice IV spells as well, but I plan on definitely usingnothing Legendary or higher. Poisons, of course, will be Handcraftedquality and I'm only going to use one poison (a DoT). It can be toughto simulate what a character would normally have, which is why I'mgoing with equipment that anyone could acquire.

[Removed for Content] good luck with that, I wanna see a fraps video of you taking out some white con mobs...hehe

kitcabood · 02-23-2006, 01:52 AM

My suggestion would be for a soloing stance. One that made at least one or two of the ranged attacks castable on the move & added a breakable root/stun that gave us at least a chance of success if we do some fancy footwork!

I solo 99.9% of the time & I really can't do so effectively now post up-date at L51.

I have been running round The Sinking sands since around L48, I'm a regular harvester (i.e., if I see it & no-one else is harvesting it then I do) & I have only found one rare that I could craft an adept out of. I can't afford to fully up-grade all my equipment to suit turning L50, I just up-graded my chest slot/bow and primary weapon slots to legendary crafted. T5 poisons but handcrafted & with de-buffs & a stat boosting potion. I have all skills at at least app IV since I'm a jeweler but I really, really, struggled just now - one green up arrow add when fighting a blue or green regular mob meant possible death.

Soloing Rangers (as opposed to Rangers doing some soloing) generally can't afford a lot of the more expensive gear or upgrades & don't tend to come by fabled. having a stance that would drop if the Ranger tried to group or PvP (for balance) would help when it comes to making changes that make soloing possible without over-powering potential in a group.

Of course - from what I hear, the group stuff needs improvement as well but we soloers are really struggling. I'm not even going to try going to the eye of Anuk for the soloing writs like this!

Oh yes - and imbued rings? Broken beyond usability. I get a rare brief stat boost that starts at the end of a fight and ends before I've healed enough to take on anything else and make use of it! Pretty little flashing icon to watch while I'm healing back from the red after fighting a blue mob though. :smileywink:

Whytefoxxe · 02-23-2006, 02:09 AM

Can we please get some sort of affirmation as to what our envisioned role is "supposed" to be? The most frustrating part of this change, and the last ones, is how our class seems to be continually redeisgned, not tweaked or refined. Are we DPS? Are we utility? I don't know, but it is tiresome to continually have to rethink my gear, my CAs, and my group/fighting strategy every 6 months.. much moreso when an expansion comes out and I want to be playing, not relearning a new class.

What is the vision for classes, or is this all ad hoc adjustment born out of afternoon roundtable discussions? Is there any modeling or analysis of data used to calculate damage tiers, or is this try and see?

I may be oversimplifying, but the principle weapon that rangers had prior to this patch was the ability to do a significant amount of damage quickly. The duels that I won were done so only if I could get the stun off and drop a lot of damage. The mobs I soloed or duoed were the ones that I could significantly damage before they ran to me, at which point my rapdily dropping life and meager point-blank dps are all I had to rely upon.

I don't think you can categorize a change in DPS without factoring in time and clustering of damage within that timeframe. For example, a mob that gets "on me" with 50%-40% more life crosses distinctly into the non-killable category. In large groups, DPS clustering isn't as critical (except for aggro management), but it make a dramatic difference in smaller groups or solo. This is every bit as critical as ward vs. immediate heal. Both do the same amounts over time, but the timeframe in which they occur makes all the difference. If healers can be skewed, why can't we?

Adding a flat 30% to all my CAs won't help, since it will be 30% more damage I'll never do becuase I'll already be dead. This is the crux of my point, and in my opinion, the biggest problem with every change in this update: no more moving shots, reduced procs / snares / stream. All of these changes DID reduce our DPS, but more importantly, resulted in mobs with many more HPs getting on top of us because the reduction flattened our DPS curve from high to rapidly low, to a flat line. We cannot tank long enough to kill, nor can we melee fast enough to tank, and since we can't heal or root effectively or hurt significantly with our bow, we are left with no viable strategy. This is one of the big problems that I hope I have managed to explain in a way that it can be understood.

Peronally, I saw our class as defined by the ability to do a lot of damage in a spurt: the triple shot, the stream of arrows (which certainly seems to be slower now too?), the big stealth attacks. Now we just feel luke warm, without direction. If our DPS was too high, please consider lowering it as an aggregate rather than leveling our DPS curve.

Zendy · 02-23-2006, 03:00 AM

Oops, sorry for multple posts. IE glitch

Message Edited by Zendy on 02-22-200602:04 PM

Zendy · 02-23-2006, 03:00 AM

Message Edited by Zendy on 02-22-200602:03 PM

Zendy · 02-23-2006, 03:02 AM

Once again, it's good to know BG is reading and watching. As others have stated, please evaluate both group and solo situations. A lot of rangers I know solo, and that is where the issues lie. Just try to knock out a few solo writs at each level and you will see the issues.

1.) Let me use my bow more. A root and/or point blank bowshot ability would be very helpful.

2.) We have to be able to shoot on the move.

Thanks!

Jay · 02-23-2006, 03:06 AM

Blackguard wrote:
Sorry, the "App III" was a typo and should have read "App II." Everything I give myself is going to be the lower-end tradeskilled gear (i.e. no rares required) or things that can be easily purchased at a merchant. I may mix in Apprentice IV spells as well, but I plan on definitely using nothing Legendary or higher. Poisons, of course, will be Handcrafted quality and I'm only going to use one poison (a DoT). It can be tough to simulate what a character would normally have, which is why I'm going with equipment that anyone could acquire.

Thanks for looking into this and taking some time to investigate the situation firsthand from direct experience. Right now, sadly, rangers don't seem to be much fun - even for those of us who are dedicated to the class and aren't looking to be the best DPS in town. Yes, some of it is the inevitable letdown of coming off such a high pedestal, but I don't even feel like adequate T1 DPS right now. While you're testing with your own ranger, do us a favor and spend plenty of timing soloing, grouping, and raiding, so you get a picture of how our class performs in each context.

Is it too much to expect that we might hear back from you after you've spent some time on this? I know a lot of us just want some indication about where our future lies. If this is it, and after testing you determine that we shouldn't require any further changes, people will want to know that so they can make their choices accordingly. If, on the other hand, you conclude that the changes reduced us too far and you plan to give us some help restoring our DPS, please tell us that. You have a lot of people right now who are debating leaving the game, and having some indication that there's a light at the end of the tunnel could motivate them to stick it out.

A couple suggestions:

1. Poisons should proc more often than they are currently. We're not seeing the 25% number on standard damage poison; it's looking much less frequent. Can you check into this and verify if that frequency should be increased? Poisons alone (not other procs, just poisons) figured in to about a third of our total damage, pre-LU20. We depend on purchased goods to attain the same DPS as a sorceror of comprable level, so we'd at least like to know that the money we have to spend isn't wasted.

2. Were the changes to our recast timers intentional? We have several skills with 1-1.5 sec cast timers that are now casting much more slowly, including Stream of Arrows. This change, combined with the proc rate changes, the mult-attack CA changes, the reduction in bow damage, with the reduction in Thorny Trap, and the faster runspeed on all mobs means we have VERY little chance to use our ranged attacks in a solo capacity. We can't have our primary skills be relegated to one shot on the pull before we're stuck in frontal melee. We're predators, we rely on ranged attacks, and the aggregate affect of these changes is forcing us way outside our role.

3. Are Quick Shot procs still able to proc poison or Gleaming Strike? If not, why not? I thought the whole point of Quick Shot was adding an extra arrow attack b/w other ranged shots.

4. The overall design changes seem to suggest that we're supposed to rely on ranged autoattack more frequently, but we can't summon tier-appropriate arrows. We're now stuck in a situation where we really NEED to buy top of the line poison, so having to purchase crafted or vendor arrows on top of that is real insult to injury. No other class is stuck in a situation of having to repeatedly pay for their damage.

Thanks for listening, I really hope you'll keep us posted. Communication is very rarely a bad thing, and it will head off a lot of angst and frustration if you just tell us what you find, and what you have planned as a result. Thanks again.

curtlewis · 02-23-2006, 03:11 AM

Blackguard,Thanks for taking a look at Rangers. Once you're done with that, could you do some raiding as a Wizard and Warlock and have the mechanics team look into our inferior damage capability? I know all us frustrated Sorcerors would appreciate the attention.I know you guys are swamped with a million things to do, especially with the new expansion (which is really cool, btw), but we've been underpowered since last September and it sure would be nice to be doing the Tier 1 DPS level of damage that we're intended to do.Thanks!

Sapperlight · 02-23-2006, 03:15 AM

Some thoughts based on beta and Live play with the changes:

-DPS was noticeably lower. I didn't parse the data, since most of my effective parses come from single target raid mobs.

-When using Natural Selection or Storm of Arrows on a group of 5 mobs, I could count on poison proc'ing on 3-5. Now, I get 0-2, usually 1. In four hours of play last night, I used less than 100 proc's on my poison, when normally in that time I would have used 2-3 charges (400-600).

-I can kill no or down arrow solo mobs solo, even up to yellow if I use traps and debilitating or snaring shot. However, this requires ample room and no adds. However, I have the advantage of a good guild in which I have all adept IIIs or masters for ranged CAs and most melee CAs. My gear is legendary-equivalent or fabled, with fabled melee weapons. This is NOT a typical setup, especially for a soloer.

-I only remember my imbued ring proc'ing twice in about two hours, after which I just replaced it.

-I'm unsure as to the reason for the drop in effectiveness for Primal Agility. With lower DPS, though, it may not be an issue...

-I could still shoot on the move with Storm of Arrows and Natural Selection, but the loss of Debilitating is tough.

My recommendations mirror those mentioned above, namely, increased damage on CAs, a point blank bow CA, and a return of the old stun length.

Message Edited by Sapperlight on 02-22-200605:19 PM

Carna · 02-23-2006, 03:28 AM

Please investigate the parry rate of ranged CAs, I think they might be significantly higher than the parry rate of melee CAs... parrying of ranged CAs have a massive bearing now on soloing viability of Rangers. If a Rangers opening salvo of CAs land as the mob rushes in, the fight is viable. If these opening shots don't land he's looking at straight up meleeing or kiting.... the class is not tuned to be meleeing, and kiting is not an activity the design team build around, moreso it's an activity actively combated by the design team. If they are going to continue to do so, they must make viable the Rangers other options.

Phidget · 02-23-2006, 03:50 AM

Blackguard,

If you plan to test rangers with real world items, why not clone copies of existing characters to play, that way you do have the same spells/items that someone would have.

StealthM0 · 02-23-2006, 04:21 AM

valleyboy1 wrote:Please dont ask for more melee skills We're rangers bro, if people want to do T1 DPS with a sword then go a Assasin.

I'd like to ask who this is directed to?

If it is myself, I am not asking for melee skills. I am asking for a review of imbued rings, summon arrow lines, moving bow ca's (non-existent post lu20 presently), and quiver stats. I agree we are not intended as a melee class.

StealthM0 · 02-23-2006, 04:22 AM

Sirlutt wrote:
SIlly Muffin wrote:
Ranger Proposals (to get us back to T1 DPS) – Rough suggestions ONLY
2. If we have to pay for DPS allow us some sort of monetary compensation elsewhere. Perhaps the ability to forage half-decent foods in the wild. Again, not on par with the provisioner foods, but again, tear appropriate functional foods. Perhaps the ability to use raws, in part, as a food substitute
your first AA does that for you.. gives you 2-8 silver every 5 mins while fighting... it add sup

Erm, and to those that don't own KoS? What of them? Leave them in the dust with no AA's?

smoody · 02-23-2006, 04:30 AM

Blackguard wrote:
Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback. We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will make changes if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out with handcrafted gear and App II spells at every 10 level range to check them out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty much every class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll be discussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not the only one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well.
Message Edited by Blackguard on 02-22-200612:03 PM

It's good you guys are looking at them. Please look at the parses from last night! I was consistently outperformed by a similarly equiped Swashbuckler who shouldn't even be close to me and I have a much better equipped toon than what you are describing. I lost 5 out of every 7 DPS races last night.

From examining the logs with the Advanced Combat Tracker, the biggest difference I see is the number of misses for ranged compared to melee skills.

Poison damage seemed to be inline with that of the swashi which I would expect. However, my CA damage and auto-attack damage needs improving to keep me in T1 DPS.

Thorny trap breaks on any damage so it is only moderately useful for soloing. Could this possibly be changed so that poison DoT's don't break it? That would help a little with the grouped mobs which are difficult for us anyway while still letting us use our AoE's for openers since they provide a lot of damage.

Fredethel

AfflictedOne · 02-23-2006, 05:00 AM

Blackguard wrote:
Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback. We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will make changes if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out with handcrafted gear and App II spells at every 10 level range to check them out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty much every class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll be discussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not the only one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well.
Message Edited by Blackguard on 02-22-200612:03 PM

Thanks for looking into this. One thing I want to put out there tho. Right now I can still solo mobs that are meant to be soloed. Sure it's a bit slower than before but can do it fairly easy. The real problem comes from the fact that our dps is very low. It really doesn't matter how well we solo if we still do T3-4 damage in groups and raids. I think if you do some serious parsing you will find that in groups/raids most of the T1 dps classes are overshadowed by the T2 classes in dps now. Heck I was consistantly being beated by T3-4 classes in the last days of beta and more than doubled by some of the T2 classes. So you really need to look at this from all sides and not just say that as a class rangers can solo cause there's much more to the game than soloing.Some ideas to put us back up where we are sup'd to be.1. Increase in combat art damage.2. Slightly shorter recast on a few of the ranged arts.3. The makeshift arrow line needs to give at least 99 arrows at M1. The 60 would have been really nice before ranger was made almost entirely ranged but now can go through way more than 60 every 10 mins. I've actually came out of 2-3 hour raids and used almost 30 stacks.4. Bow arts that can be used point-blank would be very nice as well.5. Focus Aim line - something really needs to be done with this line. It's a ranged autoattack buff. But only lasts 10 seconds. Best case it works for two autoattacks which usually one or both miss. Either make it 60 secs or make it concentration and lower damage increase or something. Well really almost anything would be better than what it currently is.6. Imbued strength rings. Currently ranger is the only scout class that gets zero use from the proc on these. A nice fix would be changing them to proc also on ranged attack. Even if the proc rate for ranged has to be reduced from what it is for melee at least then we'd have a chance of getting a proc whereas currently we don't.

theshaneman9 · 02-23-2006, 05:02 AM

Dear Developers,I understand we had to be nerfed. It was inevitable. However I do think the nerf was extreme. Through my parser looking at before and after, i had my DPS cut by 50%!!!That being said, lets get to work on re balancing the ranger class. While I understand that the nerf on poisons was logical - after all it is kind of impossible to poison something 4 times in a row, if a rattlesnake bites you 4 times in a row, you dont get re poisoned each time - There needs to be a fix on the nerf of our offensive stance. This stance should be able to proc multiple times, as if you look at it, quick shot is getting in another shot, that can be done more than once per CA.Secondly, in an effort to even out or DPS situation, melee weapon procs should be brought back. that only accounted for 10% of our damage before it was nerfed, and i our dps definately needs to be brough back by more than 10%.The bottom line is our DPS was cut to half of what it was, and needs to be re balanced. While we did need to be nerfed, this is very extreme, and I have talked to a few rangers who are quitting the game because of it , and will not come back until it is fixed. IHaving said that, lets take a look at some alternatives to bring rangers back to at least a top 4 DPS class, where they rightly should be due to their lack of group utility.Thanks for reading.

Zaviur · 02-23-2006, 05:06 AM

You know it's the procs that SoE can't seem to get a handle on. They are trying to balance this game according to what a few well geared raiders can do. If they want to tone down the proc damage that we do then up the Skill damage to put us back in T1 where we belong.

02-23-2006, 01:05 AM	#31
IBSomnifer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 206	No don't thank him for his post....its a BS PR response. This is something that should have been tested on test....not "looked" at or watched on LIVE. I'm so sick of your Sh SoE. You keep boasting how yall are always "doing this for the best of the game and its players"...and how the money isn't the reason behind certain changes. The reason all of the Flawed changes go live is because you didn't care ENOUGH to put the game and its players before your deadline/bottom line. Take the time to make sure its right...you loose plenty of players everytime you do this, and you havn't learned your lesson yet. Heres some feedback...put more harvesting nodes in some safe areas. For the short time i was able to search between zone crashes...I spied far too many nodes guarded by mobs. Mobs that arn't really soloable now...thanks. Who knows [Removed for Content] you "intend" for the game anymore cause you change it almost daily...but: -If you want us to kite, or be able to, gear our spell lines more towards that for soloability.(arrows while running, traps that work) -If you plan on making us solo upclose...increase our melee DPS. -Our bows you have much higher damage rating then they are since they are considered a 2-handed weapon. a teir 6 rare bow is around 46 damage raiting(same as 1handed mace) while a 2 handed sword or hammer is higher? some of the teir 6 fabled swords were getting up to 70+ damage rating. Its time to start thinking about it. -We should have a lot more choices for bows than 4 at teir 6. short or long. rare or common. If you are a ranger...then you have 1 bow to choose from lol. This goes for all teirs....its sad**. Message Edited by IBSomnifer on 02-22-200603:41 PM __________________ 70ranger/70alch - 61SK/63provi- AB server

02-23-2006, 01:06 AM	#32
Blackguard Developer Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 686	Bithnar wrote: BG I would like to make a suggestion. Dont use all Adept 3 skills, because not everyone can aford them or find the rares to have them made. Use a few sure because we all try to get a few of our more used skills there, but mix em up a few Adept 3's, Adept 1's and App 4's. Also, not sure how your test character are made, ie where they get their gear, but give yourself coin and then buy poisons and arrows and see how fast you go through the coinage to see what we have to do. Buy your poisons/arrows from a broker/vendor like we do, dont just "create" them out of thin air. Using the summoned arrow line is fine though :smileyvery-happy: Sorry, the "App III" was a typo and should have read "App II." Everything I give myself is going to be the lower-end tradeskilled gear (i.e. no rares required) or things that can be easily purchased at a merchant. I may mix in Apprentice IV spells as well, but I plan on definitely using nothing Legendary or higher. Poisons, of course, will be Handcrafted quality and I'm only going to use one poison (a DoT). It can be tough to simulate what a character would normally have, which is why I'm going with equipment that anyone could acquire. __________________ Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder Community Relations Manager Custodian of the Nerfbat

02-23-2006, 01:13 AM	#36
Runewind Fansite Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 341	Since BG does appear to be watching this thread I am going to politely ask a question. If rangers are nerfed more than intended (and I suspect they are) how long do you estimate it will be before things are evened out? Just a rough estimate. I'm just worried is all.Also just a sugestion to help your research but when you test out your ranger try to test him/her out in groups with other T1 DPS classes to make a comparison. I think that would be the best way to get good research. Message Edited by TwistedRiddles on 02-22-200612:20 PM __________________

02-23-2006, 01:27 AM	#37
IBSomnifer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 206	Ail wrote: Some more feedback : - The last AA in the agi path reduces casting time of CAs by 35%, does it mean that with this AA our proc rate will be even lower on CAs ? Yea I really had a GOOD HARD laugh at that when i saw it last night. [Removed for Content] would I want to proc LESS? I also think they specified that it would only help long cast and recast timers...not short cast time spells. Things like sniper shot and triple arrow i guess. Things I barely use anyway. I also believe there is one that has to do with reducing casting times of spells...not combat arts...I could be mistaken though. With all the red i'm seeing its hard to focus lol. The AAs were poorly thought out and generally useless to most classes...i'm glad they are put in thought lol. Only a few will be usefull to classes. Message Edited by IBSomnifer on 02-22-200603:30 PM __________________ 70ranger/70alch - 61SK/63provi- AB server

02-23-2006, 01:38 AM	#38
tentim General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 72	Blackguard wrote: Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback. We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will make changes if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out with handcrafted gear and App II spells at every 10 level range to check them out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty much every class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll be discussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not the only one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well. Message Edited by Blackguard on 02-22-200612:03 PM How come you can pay close attention to Rangers and you won't listen to, or even visit the class boards of, other classes. Please go read the Wizard forum. I'm not for Ranger nerfing for the record btw - just annyoed that BG yet again pampers fighter classes and totally ignores pure casters (we got stealth nerfed with KoS on our spells, so because they lied about it they won't discuss it) __________________

02-23-2006, 01:06 AM	#33
SIlly Muffin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 38	4. I dont want utility. Yep you heard me, if I wanted utility I would have rolled a bard or rogue class. I want DPS and I want to be matching everyother T1 DPS class. I have to disagree a tad here. I think in part it makes sense magic users are a tad ahead - it makes genre sense. The problem in part isnt that rangers dont do DPS its just that we've turned the issue into number a crunching game thats out of whack with the ideal of role of rangers. I think there IS a role for unique utility in the class that would help it maximize the DPS it does have. I am almost thinking that we dont need super DPS as much as we need "smart DPS" in the way of utility - like more roots, stuns and critical hits (ie knockdowns, ripostes and bows in melee). I dont think any fantasy lore even has portayed rangers as wielders of "brutal" damage; but rather as canny fighters who can defeat an opponent using skills and tricks. Muffin

02-23-2006, 01:07 AM	#34
xentavius Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 55	Looks like they got rid of craftable ap II's... first 3 levels are Ap III with last being ap IV

02-23-2006, 01:10 AM	#35
A Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 165	Some more feedback : - The last AA in the agi path reduces casting time of CAs by 35%, does it mean that with this AA our proc rate will be even lower on CAs ? - I feel with all the others changes there was really no need to make the crippling arrow/debilitating arrow line not work on the move, don't you think enough was done already ? - With the proc rate change there is really no need to prevent multi attack CAs to have a chance of a proc at every attack.... - Watching the AAs I can see how before the changes ranger damage would have been even higher with KoS ( poison crit rate + 74% for example). However was the right way to fix this to reduce rangers damage overall that much or wouldn't have it been better to modify the AAs ? Edit : More on AAs - The 4th Int line AA when maxed is a 74% chance of critical damage on poison. If in average a critical is double damage ( it can be more or less) and considering that before LU 20 poison was roughly 35% of rangers's damage, that single AA would have boosted ranger dps by roughly 26% ( 35*0.75). I can see how that would be an issue. - The 4th Agi Line AA when maxed is a 22% chance of critical damage on ranged attacks. Ranged attacks are roughly 30% of rangers's damage pre LU 20, once again this would have been a 7% damage increase with one AA. Combining both you over 35% dps increase due to those 2 AAs. My belief is that AA were not supposed to impact the game that much, instead of modifying AAs so that they have less impact you choose another way, one I believe which was less well thought and creates more issues in the future ( you didn't fix anything regarding to the critical poison AAs, now if you introduce some weapons with a high proc rate so that procs become a high percentage of someone's damage they can once again greatly increase their overall dps by picking that AAs... The real big issue is your implementation of a few AAs and then yes the fact that rangers damage needed to be tuned down a little, sadly you failed to see this.... Message Edited by Ail on 02-22-200612:59 PM

02-23-2006, 01:39 AM	#39
klepp Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 236	lol it dont add up like that... and for the record you only get $$ if you get the killshot.. which isnt very often w/ our dps now..

02-23-2006, 01:41 AM	#40
klepp Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 236	nice post valleyboy

02-23-2006, 01:44 AM	#41
Star Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 481	Blackguard wrote: Sorry, the "App III" was a typo and should have read "App II." Everything I give myself is going to be the lower-end tradeskilled gear (i.e. no rares required) or things that can be easily purchased at a merchant. I may mix in Apprentice IV spells as well, but I plan on definitely using nothing Legendary or higher. Poisons, of course, will be Handcrafted quality and I'm only going to use one poison (a DoT). It can be tough to simulate what a character would normally have, which is why I'm going with equipment that anyone could acquire. This sounds like a good test though BG, maybe earing a bit on the side of under powered compared to the average player. I think it's better to stay on that side and if you maybe can get some of your partners there to make some other classes to grp with and parse. I kid not when I say I was regularly out DPSed by what I whought were Tier 2 classes last night. :smileysad: __________________

02-23-2006, 01:44 AM	#42
Drevva Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 197	I have only been playing my ranger solo since the changes. So will keep my comments constrained to that area.I have no desire to be able to solo ^^^ heroics. But I do want to solo the solo content well and as a dps we should be able to.The changes have force us into a gimpy melee role when soloing if some of our long recast arts aren't up, and we get the crap beat out of us.Give us the ability to shoot in close range, or give us the ability to root. I want to be using my bow at least 70% of the fight. Our combat arts need faster recasts now. We need an ability to stun a single up ^ for more than 2 secs.Or up our dmg. If upping our dmg messes up our group /raid dmg then give us point blank shooting ability. This won't change group/raid parses but will give us some soloing ability, some faster recasts would help to...If we are going to be forced to pay for our dmg, it should be worth it. This area does cause some contention. Should our dmg be better because we pay for it? my thought would be at least a little.I'm disappointed these changes went in with so light thought to solo/small group play. My confidence in the devs is a bit shaken, but I'm hopefull this gets worked out quickly. __________________ (chars of note) Tyval lvl 80 Swashy Lucan Drevva lvl 73 Fury Lucan Drayus lvl 70 Mystic Lucan Tyvus lvl 70 Templar Drenna lvl 70 Dirge Lucan Brystan lvl 63 conjuror Lucan (yes I have an issue with alts)

02-23-2006, 01:45 AM	#43
Guard_Ra General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 73	The game in whole and more specifically Rangers have become way too reliant on poisons and procs for dmg. IMO both do way more dmg then they should and should be reduced to give minor benefits or dmg boosts. However, as many have pointed out our DPS has been reduced dramatically. To bring us back inline where we should be, you should be looking at modifying our CA's raw dmg output, as well in reducing cast and re-use times or both where applicable. In the couple hours i was able to play last night, it was a button smash fest hoping i did enough dmg with my opening bow shot so i could grind the mob down. __________________

02-23-2006, 01:50 AM	#44
TwistedFaith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 892	Blackguard wrote: Bithnar wrote: BG I would like to make a suggestion. Dontuse all Adept 3 skills, because not everyone can aford them or find therares to have them made. Use a few sure because we all try to geta few of our more used skills there, but mix em up a few Adept 3's,Adept 1's and App 4's. Also, not sure how your test character aremade, ie where they get their gear, but give yourself coin and then buypoisons and arrows and see how fast you go through the coinage to seewhat we have to do. Buy your poisons/arrows from a broker/vendorlike we do, dont just "create" them out of thin air. Using thesummoned arrow line is fine though :smileyvery-happy: Sorry,the "App III" was a typo and should have read "App II." Everything Igive myself is going to be the lower-end tradeskilled gear (i.e. norares required) or things that can be easily purchased at a merchant. Imay mix in Apprentice IV spells as well, but I plan on definitely usingnothing Legendary or higher. Poisons, of course, will be Handcraftedquality and I'm only going to use one poison (a DoT). It can be toughto simulate what a character would normally have, which is why I'mgoing with equipment that anyone could acquire. [Removed for Content] good luck with that, I wanna see a fraps video of you taking out some white con mobs...hehe

02-23-2006, 01:52 AM	#45
kitcabood Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 12	My suggestion would be for a soloing stance. One that made at least one or two of the ranged attacks castable on the move & added a breakable root/stun that gave us at least a chance of success if we do some fancy footwork! I solo 99.9% of the time & I really can't do so effectively now post up-date at L51. I have been running round The Sinking sands since around L48, I'm a regular harvester (i.e., if I see it & no-one else is harvesting it then I do) & I have only found one rare that I could craft an adept out of. I can't afford to fully up-grade all my equipment to suit turning L50, I just up-graded my chest slot/bow and primary weapon slots to legendary crafted. T5 poisons but handcrafted & with de-buffs & a stat boosting potion. I have all skills at at least app IV since I'm a jeweler but I really, really, struggled just now - one green up arrow add when fighting a blue or green regular mob meant possible death. Soloing Rangers (as opposed to Rangers doing some soloing) generally can't afford a lot of the more expensive gear or upgrades & don't tend to come by fabled. having a stance that would drop if the Ranger tried to group or PvP (for balance) would help when it comes to making changes that make soloing possible without over-powering potential in a group. Of course - from what I hear, the group stuff needs improvement as well but we soloers are really struggling. I'm not even going to try going to the eye of Anuk for the soloing writs like this! Oh yes - and imbued rings? Broken beyond usability. I get a rare brief stat boost that starts at the end of a fight and ends before I've healed enough to take on anything else and make use of it! Pretty little flashing icon to watch while I'm healing back from the red after fighting a blue mob though. :smileywink:

02-23-2006, 02:09 AM	#46
Whytefoxxe Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	Can we please get some sort of affirmation as to what our envisioned role is "supposed" to be? The most frustrating part of this change, and the last ones, is how our class seems to be continually redeisgned, not tweaked or refined. Are we DPS? Are we utility? I don't know, but it is tiresome to continually have to rethink my gear, my CAs, and my group/fighting strategy every 6 months.. much moreso when an expansion comes out and I want to be playing, not relearning a new class. What is the vision for classes, or is this all ad hoc adjustment born out of afternoon roundtable discussions? Is there any modeling or analysis of data used to calculate damage tiers, or is this try and see? I may be oversimplifying, but the principle weapon that rangers had prior to this patch was the ability to do a significant amount of damage quickly. The duels that I won were done so only if I could get the stun off and drop a lot of damage. The mobs I soloed or duoed were the ones that I could significantly damage before they ran to me, at which point my rapdily dropping life and meager point-blank dps are all I had to rely upon. I don't think you can categorize a change in DPS without factoring in time and clustering of damage within that timeframe. For example, a mob that gets "on me" with 50%-40% more life crosses distinctly into the non-killable category. In large groups, DPS clustering isn't as critical (except for aggro management), but it make a dramatic difference in smaller groups or solo. This is every bit as critical as ward vs. immediate heal. Both do the same amounts over time, but the timeframe in which they occur makes all the difference. If healers can be skewed, why can't we? Adding a flat 30% to all my CAs won't help, since it will be 30% more damage I'll never do becuase I'll already be dead. This is the crux of my point, and in my opinion, the biggest problem with every change in this update: no more moving shots, reduced procs / snares / stream. All of these changes DID reduce our DPS, but more importantly, resulted in mobs with many more HPs getting on top of us because the reduction flattened our DPS curve from high to rapidly low, to a flat line. We cannot tank long enough to kill, nor can we melee fast enough to tank, and since we can't heal or root effectively or hurt significantly with our bow, we are left with no viable strategy. This is one of the big problems that I hope I have managed to explain in a way that it can be understood. Peronally, I saw our class as defined by the ability to do a lot of damage in a spurt: the triple shot, the stream of arrows (which certainly seems to be slower now too?), the big stealth attacks. Now we just feel luke warm, without direction. If our DPS was too high, please consider lowering it as an aggregate rather than leveling our DPS curve.

02-23-2006, 03:00 AM	#47
Zendy Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4	Oops, sorry for multple posts. IE glitch Message Edited by Zendy on 02-22-200602:04 PM __________________

02-23-2006, 03:02 AM	#49
Zendy Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4	Once again, it's good to know BG is reading and watching. As others have stated, please evaluate both group and solo situations. A lot of rangers I know solo, and that is where the issues lie. Just try to knock out a few solo writs at each level and you will see the issues. 1.) Let me use my bow more. A root and/or point blank bowshot ability would be very helpful. 2.) We have to be able to shoot on the move. Thanks! __________________

02-23-2006, 03:06 AM	#50
Jay General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,137	Blackguard wrote: Sorry, the "App III" was a typo and should have read "App II." Everything I give myself is going to be the lower-end tradeskilled gear (i.e. no rares required) or things that can be easily purchased at a merchant. I may mix in Apprentice IV spells as well, but I plan on definitely using nothing Legendary or higher. Poisons, of course, will be Handcrafted quality and I'm only going to use one poison (a DoT). It can be tough to simulate what a character would normally have, which is why I'm going with equipment that anyone could acquire. Thanks for looking into this and taking some time to investigate the situation firsthand from direct experience. Right now, sadly, rangers don't seem to be much fun - even for those of us who are dedicated to the class and aren't looking to be the best DPS in town. Yes, some of it is the inevitable letdown of coming off such a high pedestal, but I don't even feel like adequate T1 DPS right now. While you're testing with your own ranger, do us a favor and spend plenty of timing soloing, grouping, and raiding, so you get a picture of how our class performs in each context. Is it too much to expect that we might hear back from you after you've spent some time on this? I know a lot of us just want some indication about where our future lies. If this is it, and after testing you determine that we shouldn't require any further changes, people will want to know that so they can make their choices accordingly. If, on the other hand, you conclude that the changes reduced us too far and you plan to give us some help restoring our DPS, please tell us that. You have a lot of people right now who are debating leaving the game, and having some indication that there's a light at the end of the tunnel could motivate them to stick it out. A couple suggestions: 1. Poisons should proc more often than they are currently. We're not seeing the 25% number on standard damage poison; it's looking much less frequent. Can you check into this and verify if that frequency should be increased? Poisons alone (not other procs, just poisons) figured in to about a third of our total damage, pre-LU20. We depend on purchased goods to attain the same DPS as a sorceror of comprable level, so we'd at least like to know that the money we have to spend isn't wasted. 2. Were the changes to our recast timers intentional? We have several skills with 1-1.5 sec cast timers that are now casting much more slowly, including Stream of Arrows. This change, combined with the proc rate changes, the mult-attack CA changes, the reduction in bow damage, with the reduction in Thorny Trap, and the faster runspeed on all mobs means we have VERY little chance to use our ranged attacks in a solo capacity. We can't have our primary skills be relegated to one shot on the pull before we're stuck in frontal melee. We're predators, we rely on ranged attacks, and the aggregate affect of these changes is forcing us way outside our role. 3. Are Quick Shot procs still able to proc poison or Gleaming Strike? If not, why not? I thought the whole point of Quick Shot was adding an extra arrow attack b/w other ranged shots. 4. The overall design changes seem to suggest that we're supposed to rely on ranged autoattack more frequently, but we can't summon tier-appropriate arrows. We're now stuck in a situation where we really NEED to buy top of the line poison, so having to purchase crafted or vendor arrows on top of that is real insult to injury. No other class is stuck in a situation of having to repeatedly pay for their damage. Thanks for listening, I really hope you'll keep us posted. Communication is very rarely a bad thing, and it will head off a lot of angst and frustration if you just tell us what you find, and what you have planned as a result. Thanks again. __________________

02-23-2006, 03:11 AM	#51
curtlewis Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 246	Blackguard,Thanks for taking a look at Rangers. Once you're done with that, could you do some raiding as a Wizard and Warlock and have the mechanics team look into our inferior damage capability? I know all us frustrated Sorcerors would appreciate the attention.I know you guys are swamped with a million things to do, especially with the new expansion (which is really cool, btw), but we've been underpowered since last September and it sure would be nice to be doing the Tier 1 DPS level of damage that we're intended to do.Thanks!

02-23-2006, 03:15 AM	#52
Sapperlight Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 59	Some thoughts based on beta and Live play with the changes: -DPS was noticeably lower. I didn't parse the data, since most of my effective parses come from single target raid mobs. -When using Natural Selection or Storm of Arrows on a group of 5 mobs, I could count on poison proc'ing on 3-5. Now, I get 0-2, usually 1. In four hours of play last night, I used less than 100 proc's on my poison, when normally in that time I would have used 2-3 charges (400-600). -I can kill no or down arrow solo mobs solo, even up to yellow if I use traps and debilitating or snaring shot. However, this requires ample room and no adds. However, I have the advantage of a good guild in which I have all adept IIIs or masters for ranged CAs and most melee CAs. My gear is legendary-equivalent or fabled, with fabled melee weapons. This is NOT a typical setup, especially for a soloer. -I only remember my imbued ring proc'ing twice in about two hours, after which I just replaced it. -I'm unsure as to the reason for the drop in effectiveness for Primal Agility. With lower DPS, though, it may not be an issue... -I could still shoot on the move with Storm of Arrows and Natural Selection, but the loss of Debilitating is tough. My recommendations mirror those mentioned above, namely, increased damage on CAs, a point blank bow CA, and a return of the old stun length. Message Edited by Sapperlight on 02-22-200605:19 PM

02-23-2006, 03:28 AM	#53
Carna Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 515	Please investigate the parry rate of ranged CAs, I think they might be significantly higher than the parry rate of melee CAs... parrying of ranged CAs have a massive bearing now on soloing viability of Rangers. If a Rangers opening salvo of CAs land as the mob rushes in, the fight is viable. If these opening shots don't land he's looking at straight up meleeing or kiting.... the class is not tuned to be meleeing, and kiting is not an activity the design team build around, moreso it's an activity actively combated by the design team. If they are going to continue to do so, they must make viable the Rangers other options.

02-23-2006, 03:50 AM	#54
Phidget Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	Blackguard, If you plan to test rangers with real world items, why not clone copies of existing characters to play, that way you do have the same spells/items that someone would have. __________________

02-23-2006, 04:21 AM	#55
StealthM0 General Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Baltimore, Md Posts: 375	valleyboy1 wrote:Please dont ask for more melee skills We're rangers bro, if people want to do T1 DPS with a sword then go a Assasin. I'd like to ask who this is directed to? If it is myself, I am not asking for melee skills. I am asking for a review of imbued rings, summon arrow lines, moving bow ca's (non-existent post lu20 presently), and quiver stats. I agree we are not intended as a melee class. __________________ FIX THE RANGER MYTHICAL IN 09! DEVZ KNOW ITS BROKE, GMs KNOW ITS BROKE, SO WHY IS IT STILL BROKE?!? FIX REPEATING ARROWS, AND OUR OTHER BROKEN CA'S! AND READD BY PRODUCT INGOTS, OR REMOVE BY PRODUCT DUSTS!

02-23-2006, 04:22 AM	#56
StealthM0 General Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Baltimore, Md Posts: 375	Sirlutt wrote: SIlly Muffin wrote: Ranger Proposals (to get us back to T1 DPS) – Rough suggestions ONLY 2. If we have to pay for DPS allow us some sort of monetary compensation elsewhere. Perhaps the ability to forage half-decent foods in the wild. Again, not on par with the provisioner foods, but again, tear appropriate functional foods. Perhaps the ability to use raws, in part, as a food substitute your first AA does that for you.. gives you 2-8 silver every 5 mins while fighting... it add sup Erm, and to those that don't own KoS? What of them? Leave them in the dust with no AA's? __________________ FIX THE RANGER MYTHICAL IN 09! DEVZ KNOW ITS BROKE, GMs KNOW ITS BROKE, SO WHY IS IT STILL BROKE?!? FIX REPEATING ARROWS, AND OUR OTHER BROKEN CA'S! AND READD BY PRODUCT INGOTS, OR REMOVE BY PRODUCT DUSTS!

02-23-2006, 04:30 AM	#57
smoody Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 41	Blackguard wrote: Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback. We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will make changes if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out with handcrafted gear and App II spells at every 10 level range to check them out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty much every class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll be discussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not the only one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well. Message Edited by Blackguard on 02-22-200612:03 PM It's good you guys are looking at them. Please look at the parses from last night! I was consistently outperformed by a similarly equiped Swashbuckler who shouldn't even be close to me and I have a much better equipped toon than what you are describing. I lost 5 out of every 7 DPS races last night. From examining the logs with the Advanced Combat Tracker, the biggest difference I see is the number of misses for ranged compared to melee skills. Poison damage seemed to be inline with that of the swashi which I would expect. However, my CA damage and auto-attack damage needs improving to keep me in T1 DPS. Thorny trap breaks on any damage so it is only moderately useful for soloing. Could this possibly be changed so that poison DoT's don't break it? That would help a little with the grouped mobs which are difficult for us anyway while still letting us use our AoE's for openers since they provide a lot of damage. Fredethel __________________ 62 Ranger / 64 Provisioner - Nektulos (Vengeance) 65 Alchemist 61 Carpenter

02-23-2006, 05:00 AM	#58
AfflictedOne Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 76	Blackguard wrote: Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback. We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will make changes if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out with handcrafted gear and App II spells at every 10 level range to check them out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty much every class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll be discussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not the only one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well. Message Edited by Blackguard on 02-22-200612:03 PM Thanks for looking into this. One thing I want to put out there tho. Right now I can still solo mobs that are meant to be soloed. Sure it's a bit slower than before but can do it fairly easy. The real problem comes from the fact that our dps is very low. It really doesn't matter how well we solo if we still do T3-4 damage in groups and raids. I think if you do some serious parsing you will find that in groups/raids most of the T1 dps classes are overshadowed by the T2 classes in dps now. Heck I was consistantly being beated by T3-4 classes in the last days of beta and more than doubled by some of the T2 classes. So you really need to look at this from all sides and not just say that as a class rangers can solo cause there's much more to the game than soloing.Some ideas to put us back up where we are sup'd to be.1. Increase in combat art damage.2. Slightly shorter recast on a few of the ranged arts.3. The makeshift arrow line needs to give at least 99 arrows at M1. The 60 would have been really nice before ranger was made almost entirely ranged but now can go through way more than 60 every 10 mins. I've actually came out of 2-3 hour raids and used almost 30 stacks.4. Bow arts that can be used point-blank would be very nice as well.5. Focus Aim line - something really needs to be done with this line. It's a ranged autoattack buff. But only lasts 10 seconds. Best case it works for two autoattacks which usually one or both miss. Either make it 60 secs or make it concentration and lower damage increase or something. Well really almost anything would be better than what it currently is.6. Imbued strength rings. Currently ranger is the only scout class that gets zero use from the proc on these. A nice fix would be changing them to proc also on ranged attack. Even if the proc rate for ranged has to be reduced from what it is for melee at least then we'd have a chance of getting a proc whereas currently we don't.

02-23-2006, 05:02 AM	#59
theshaneman9 Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3	Dear Developers,I understand we had to be nerfed. It was inevitable. However I do think the nerf was extreme. Through my parser looking at before and after, i had my DPS cut by 50%!!!That being said, lets get to work on re balancing the ranger class. While I understand that the nerf on poisons was logical - after all it is kind of impossible to poison something 4 times in a row, if a rattlesnake bites you 4 times in a row, you dont get re poisoned each time - There needs to be a fix on the nerf of our offensive stance. This stance should be able to proc multiple times, as if you look at it, quick shot is getting in another shot, that can be done more than once per CA.Secondly, in an effort to even out or DPS situation, melee weapon procs should be brought back. that only accounted for 10% of our damage before it was nerfed, and i our dps definately needs to be brough back by more than 10%.The bottom line is our DPS was cut to half of what it was, and needs to be re balanced. While we did need to be nerfed, this is very extreme, and I have talked to a few rangers who are quitting the game because of it , and will not come back until it is fixed. IHaving said that, lets take a look at some alternatives to bring rangers back to at least a top 4 DPS class, where they rightly should be due to their lack of group utility.Thanks for reading.

02-23-2006, 05:06 AM	#60
Zaviur Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 146	You know it's the procs that SoE can't seem to get a handle on. They are trying to balance this game according to what a few well geared raiders can do. If they want to tone down the proc damage that we do then up the Skill damage to put us back in T1 where we belong.