Paladins in PvP

[Vathranen]

I made this post under another thread but I felt like I wanted to throw it out here for everybody. It's a list of reasons why Paladin's aren't that good in PvP but followed by a list of things I think would help the class be more useful and/or desirable in PvP.

 

I'm 68 and my gear is far from great, but it's serviceable. I'm close to what you all prescribed as necessary to be called "tank". The issue isn't so much class imbalances as is it mechanics of the game. As someone already said - this game wasn't made for PvP. Classes can't be balanced. It was my fault (and yours) for choosing the wrong class for PvP. Here is a list of reasons why Paladin is a poor choice for PvP:

1) Low damage output. This is because Paladins get healing. I've actually been main healer for my group several times as many healers dropped out in the high levels to reroll as scouts. You can't have high defense, decent healing, and high damage in one package. (Though you can have tracking, safe fall, stealth, high defense, and high offense in one package but that's another can of worms)

2) Resist rates in Tier 7. PvP in tier 7 is broken. The gear you start getting at level 60 has such high resists on it that many mages drop out of PvP and reroll as scouts. The one class that a Paladin excells against is a non-pet mage. Sadly I haven't seen one in a very long time. Doubled with this is the fact that half of the Paladin's offense comes in the form of spells. Fortunately nobody bothers with divine resistance because the only classes that use it are the lowest DPS ones.

3) Damage scaling (offense vs. defense). When I played PvE I noticed that at level 50+ the mobs' hitpoints started increasing exponentially (seemed like) but so did the offense of the DPS classes. They tried to tone this down for PvP but it didn't work. The high damage hits didn't get toned down enough and the low damage hits stayed the same. You won't be one-shot by Decapitate, but it'll get you close enough to red that you have no hope of healing back up and winning. My ward at Adept 3 is 1300 and I crit it almost all the time from the INT AA line. 1300 is 1 combat art from an assassin or bruiser and two from any other class. It takes longer to cast than it does to punch through.

4) Heals lowered for PvP. In PvP heals got lowered as well as damage output. However, they overdid it. Heals are reduced by more than 20% (I don't know if ward also got reduced, mine has never lasted long enough to really tell). Two healers can't keep a group alive if the attackers have more than one scout and one mage. And there's always more than one scout. Couple this issue with the long cast times on heals in addition to the huge animation that says, "I'm casting a heal, come interrupt me!" healing in PvP is somewhat of an oxymoron.

4a) Without getting into a Shadowknight vs. Paladin discussion one things needs to be said here. Lay on Hands got toned down. Harm Touch did not. Harm Touch also gets a bonus from INT and says in its description "Very difficult to resist."

5) Interrupts. 2/3 of the Paladin's arts are spells of either healing or damage. Both have animations that are very easy to see and hear and have casting times that are quite long enough to stop. With the new changes to stuns you can be stunned an entire fight, never even getting a single spell off. This happens to me often with the plethora of bruisers out there.

6) Taunting capability. All other fighters' auto-taunt buff works in PvP. Monks can force their target to fight them exclusively with Dragon Stance. Berserkers and Guardians proc a taunt nearly every time they're hit. The Paladin's Amends and the Shadowknight's Tainted Caress line (I think that's what it's called) are both broken for PvP. Tainted Caress does nothing at all and Amends gives the target a 5% chance to proc a taunt from the Paladin when struck in PvP. Worthless. Normal taunts last 3 seconds no matter how upgraded and get resisted terribly in tier 7.

I'm not discussing 1:1 PvP as a Paladin as that's just foolish. But even in a group I'd rather be any other class as I'd feel like I could contribute something other than being an extra target. You'll spend an entire fight just trying in vain to heal yourself and your group but it's really an uphill battle. On one hand you want to taunt and try to save your group but on the other you know it won't last long, and it'll only mean you can't do anything yourself while you get the beatdown. If there's another tank such as a berserker then you're freed up to do a bit more but I honestly feel any other class would be better suited to any role that a Paladin could do.

I think that the source of the problem is that the Paladin is one of the only true hybrid classes and neither tanking nor healing work very well in PvP so when you water both down and put them in one class you've got a lame duck.

Our only saving grace is Doom Judgement. That attack is so good in PvP if it lands.

EDIT: I also want to add that it's not too bad until post 50. Most classes work pretty well until then, but after 50 the damage scales up so fast that there's really no reason to play anything other than a DPS class.

EDIT2: I'd like to throw in here that PvP servers are completely different than dueling on a PvE server. Many rules and CA's change for PvP but primarily in a duel you're in a very small radius and the scouts can't run away and stealth like they can (and do) on PvP servers.

Then here's my follow up post.

I have been told that maybe I focus a little too much on the negative, so here are a few ideas that I think would help make the Paladin a little better in PvP, give the class some individuality, but not overpower the class.

1) The first AA point needs to be changed from +20 focus when under 50% health to immune to stun/interrupt effects when under 50% health. The AA as it is works fine for PvE where the mob's stuns and interrupts are sporadic, but it does nothing at all to help against Cheap Shot or one of the many kicks Bruisers get.

2) The last AA point in the Wisdom line should be a group immunity to Fear effects in a radius around the Paladin. This would emulate the ability that Paladins get in 3rd ed. D&D and certainly fits in well with the class. This would be a very class defining ability as there are many Freeport classes that get fear and would be thwarted with a Paladin in the group. As it is now I don't think anybody has taken or will take the power.

3) Amends needs to be changed to 100% chance to proc a taunt from the Paladin when the target is struck. IE - an Assassin comes up and Decapitates the Mage but then gets taunted onto the Paladin. The mage may still die but if he doesn't then the Assassin is dealing with the Paladin instead and can't finish the job.

4) Give us back our nuke on the run. This ability was in no way overpowered and should never have been taken away. Warriors and Brawlers have a taunt that interrupts, is instant cast, ranged, and can even be used while stunned. All of these classes also get ranged auto attack which is immensely important in PvP when you're trying to chase down a runner. The Grizzfazzle bow does quite a lot of damage just from ranged auto attack; more than Decree/Brimstone.

5) Detect Evil. This is something that Paladins have had in many games throughout the genre. I'm thinking it could be like the racial vision types except it wouldn't alter anything visually. You'd just get a red glowing outline on any Freeporter that you see whether they're in stealth, invis, or just standing around. I'm thinking it would look like players look when stealthed except in red instead of gray. It could be on a 1 minute recast timer with a duration of maybe 20 seconds, or a 5 minute recast with duration 1 minute. This would give Paladins some kind of a use and a defense when out alone and actually fits quite well with the class. Obviously shadowknights would likewise get a Detect Good ability. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't templars get this as a fun spell? Does anyone know if it works in PvP? Templars are more rare than spongy loam on Venekor or I'd ask one myself. I think this would fall under the "PvP Only" category as it wouldn't affect anything in PvE but would be class defining in PvP.

Notice I'm not asking for any extra damage as I don't feel that's what Paladins do. I think we could use a little bump in potency but these issues are far more glaring and preventing the class from performing as well as it should against other classes or when compared to peer classes.

 

EDIT: The reason Doom Judgement is so powerful is because it removes beneficial buffs from targets. I try to use it when my enemies are bunched up at the beginning of the fight to remove as many of their buffs as I can. This can and does turn the tide of a fight because missing some crucial buffs can be crippling to a group. I have mine Adept III and it removes 112 levels of buffs (I think).

[ChopStix]

i agree , paladins need something..

 

 if we dont , this class will be forgotten on the pvp servers!!..

[holypaladin28]

sighs.  as a pvping pally they are great

 

i can solo a scout 4 lvl higher i can win about 75 percent of my encounters with an even con player

 

when you use a pally right they are very very very good.  im on vox and i have no problem finding a group to play

 

first WARDS i have a 700plus ward castable every 24 seconds i have a group heal of about 700 i have a self heal of  600 and1300 i have an instant heal of 2k.  we have i can where some awesome MIT/ resist armor most of my resist when buffed are 2500 and higher.  my mit is at 2400 when buffed. 

 

learn when to use your spells and a pally is very very deadly.  after all someone would have to do almost 2k damage to get pastr my wards and and normal heals befroe i can cast ward again

 

GET good gear and adept three on your spells

 

ps i was a champ but got ganked by a raid 3 times so lost it agian but after tonight it will be mine

Message Edited by holypaladin2819 on 07-31-2006 07:14 PM

[ChopStix]

wait til you get in your mid to upper 50's, and see how you do, every other class's dps goes up and through the roof..  yours doesnt... totally different ballgame..  you better be looking for fabled gear only, because the general items arent going to be of any use to you.. wait until you run into an assasin and shadow knight, or 2 assasins at the same time, you wont get the ward off, sorry to say, and the heals are pretty useless with interupts every 2 seconds, except for the celestial touch just to prolong the fight until you die..

i did see a mid 40's paladin with all fabled gear,must have been you.. but i dont see it helping much in the higher tiers, when every other class's dps/taunts/stuns goes through the roof, and paladins dont.

i have cuirass of protection, heavy platemail helm of valor, chitin gauntlets, rezhirzs bracers of the task,pungent chitin spaulders, xego boots and plate leggings,adjutants belt, vitae immortalis, adorment of profecy, moonstone ring of wisdom, acryia band of strength, fashioned acrylia bangle,zorvs wristguard, secondary is orb or enmity, shield is Cliffbase,  blade of bixies...

all my heals and my ward are masters.. ca's are mostly adept3 and adept1

defensive stance.

mitigation-3400

avoidance 46%

health 6100

power 3632

resists

2985 cold

2675 disease

4585 divine

2500 heat

5988 magic

3086 mental

3380 poison

 

would like to reset my aa's, but dont think i'm going to mess with it at this point, have just about given up on the paladin class..

Message Edited by ChopStix on 07-31-2006 08:19 PM

[ChopStix]

lvl 68 master1 devotion ,- wards target of 1376 of all damage...

 

a lvl70 assasin laughs at that with decapitate doin like 7500-10,000 melee damage, plus thier attack speed and recast times are cut in half with aa points.. and i've ran into sk's and won some and lost some, i just dont like it they get an evac and we dont, and i dont like the sk's life drain, that add's to thier life, might as well be a heal over time while doing damage to you in the process.. seems unbalanced to me..

[ChopStix]

and kalgore, your kill to death ratio arent much different than mine, your at 2.38, i'm at 2.36... you'll see what i'm talking about when you get past lvl 60 ;]

[ChopStix]

the only paladin that impress's me goes by the name Thunder.. evidently he's figured it out..

[Zo]

Grass is always greener syndrome in this post. Reroll if you want an I-win button or you're not a team player. PVP is more in one's group makeup and communication than whether one is a Zerker or a Pally. A class in PVP is more the player than the CAs.

[Vathranen]

While I agree that playstyle is a large factor in a class' performance I completely disagree that Berserker and Paladin are on equal footing in PvP. I've described in great detail why the mechanics support the warrior and brawler classes but punish the Crusader.

 

Also, I haven't soloed since level 22 as a Paladin, and I've been in Ventrilo with my groups since 35. As I said, there is nothing a Paladin offers a group that some other class can offer more of.

 

Lastly, I have gone to where the grass is greener. I rolled a Swashbuckler and now I win all the time whether solo or grouped, just like everybody else. Is this how you want EQ2 to be?

[ChopStix]

thats what ive been saying in this forum for a while, atleast this last month...

if soe doesnt do something to a paladin for pvp they will die out alltogether on the pvp servers.. now in a group pve setting a paladin is pretty good with the buffs and ward on the main tank, and the aggro transfer on the healer, and rescue, and sigil, to emergency pull off casters and healers, in combat rez is nice, but this is mostly useful in pve,and my higher lvl guildmates want me in group, especially the healers and wizzys for some reason,but ,pvp is totally different ,a paladin ranks as so so, or less! and i'll vote less after rolling my ranger...

 

  i rolled a ranger for pvp only , hidden shot adept3 does 500-800 and has actually hit for over 1500 damage, ive one shotted fp's with hidden shot adept3, at lvl 28, if you look at the stats for dandrink ranger, vox server ..... my 69 pally doesnt hit that hard, and thats completely stupid in my opinion.. i've even taken out toons 32 and above with one shot at lvl 28, but if a ranger lets the enemy get to close, its a different ballgame also, thats when they're alot weaker..

[ChopStix]

and zo,

 

 you must be ignorant, can you not read?????

 

do i ever say i want a i win button, i didint think so.... what i have stated many times over, for pvp combat the sk definetly has many advantages over a paladin and something should be done to make them class even!!!! that means balanced!!!  if you can read, but evidently you cant so i'll stop typing to you..

 

why do sk's get an evac??  why doesnt a pally??  wheres the paladins heal over time, like the sk gets heal over time while stealing your life in the process?? wheres the paladins high damage spell such as the sk gets?  paladins dont get one, along with the other things i've mentioned,  seems way unbalanced for pvp, i thought the developers made mention of classes being equal, and or, added the pvp check box so they could make them balanced easier, i see thier working diligently [or i really mean indiligently, haha] on this...

 

[lonethius]

Vathranen I'll let you know the same thing as I let the other guy know. Paladins are THE STRONGEST pvp plate tank. I'm gonna address all your concerns now. 1) our damage output is suposed to be low. However this doesn't mean you cant do good damage. Refusal of conviction, joust, and devout strike do well. palis are ment to do about 250-350 DPS. low damage doesnt mean you cant win though. 2) if anything resists being broken is a strength for the paladin. since our mana pool is from STR and WIS you should have a ridiculously high amount of wisdom anyway, which should give you really really good resists. divine resist in t7 gear is the least common one. so you should feel happy all your damage comes from the divine. #2 is a win win for the paladin.3) Scouts dont woop me that hard. yeah decap hurts but i dont think ive ever been droped into orange by it. at least not since ive been 70. the ward is amazing. i have the same version as you and it is really really good. tanks have trouble busting though it and im sure it annoys scouts/mages and ESPECIALLY healers. I also have never been droped into orange by any spell due to my wis being high (just like yours should be)4) your ward does not get reduced in pvp. It is your best friend and the spell you should be casting. Single target heal can be a waste in a 1v1 fight, unless you are at really really low health. I never use healing other than the cool downs in a drawn out fight. if you get interupted every now and then so what, just keep going. i find a good way to keep this from happening is shield bash before a ward and kick before a heal. 4a) ill take LOH over HT any day. I'd rather fully heal my healer/mage from red health than have a sort of 1 shot. (although you should not ever get one shot) All harmtouch does is spoil SK into thinking they are more powerful than they are. You should be able to resist harm tocuh half the time anyway. LOH = unresistable. lol5) see 4 on how to stop getting interupted on heals. our damage spells are pretty fast cast, cept for the refusal line and brimstone. However i have never been interupted out of brimstone to my knowledge, Ive even been knocked back and it will still keep casting. 6) try out sigil of heroism when your group starts taking damage. They wont take much at all for the next 15 seconds, which should give your healers time to get everyone back up to green. clarion cry taunts initially then taunts THREE MORE TIMES without you even having to do anything! also our encounter taunt lowers divine which is super sweet. so we dont get reactive or interupt taunts? big woop, i can interupt a whole entire group with two different spells. and reactive taunts arent that great in PVP cuz anyone who is good at pvp knows not to waste their CAs on guardians.you are correct about paladins not being a good 1v1 class, but all qeynos classes do better in groups. so dont sweat it. doom judgement sucks at lvl 70 =( removes like... one buff... maybemost of your ideas are waaaay too extreme. although i like them :smileywink: 1) immunity to interupt? dont you think that is a little much? lol 50% i can see.2) my good budy kalath has this and loves it lol. although i do think if it was the way you said it, it would be great. it is consistent with the rest of the wis line.3) 100% chance to switch target? wow that would be amazing. no healer would ever die. that is waaaay to much. although i think 5% is too low, 100% is definatly not the answer. sigil does 33% hate transfer pve and 75% chance switching targets in pvp at adt3. I think if it was scaled to that it would be nice. for example 42% transfer in pvp might equal like... 20% chance in pvp (because it is a lasting buff, sigil only lasts 15 seconds)4) again that is a really neat idea but is too overpowered. it would grant us a complete see stealth/invis at all times. way to overpowered. and i think your local owl/butterfly totem merchant would be pretty [Removed for Content] too :smileytongue: I think this idea might be viable as a self buff that only lastest 30 seconds or so. re-usable every 3 minutes maybe.

Message Edited by lonethius on 08-01-2006 01:43 PM

[Vathranen]

Well you win. I guess I just suck. Or you run with an extremely amazingly good group. I get interrupted and die. That's it. I rarely live through the duration of the stun, let alone have time to cast a ward. I try to kick and then ward but it doesn't work as stuns don't last long enough and then I'm stun-locked afterward.

Ah well I give up. It seems there are a few Paladin who enjoy their class in PvP and I'm willing to let them enjoy it as-is. As for me, I'm retiring the lesson in frustration that playing a Paladin is and turning to my alts.

[ElctSocket]

At lvl 28 I still haven't encountered a SK solo so I haven't been able to analyze but it seems like SK=pally with the healing since they basically have a constant regrowth on them that equals about the same as our heals in the end. The big difference is their dps...I agree though that a lot of classes should be nerfed or pallys need to be made a little better. And btw, when do SK get evac? lvl 44 instead of a rez?

[Vathranen]

Yeah Shadowknights get evac at 44 as counterpart to the Paladin's rez. Another point I'd like to make is that Shadowknight feign death is castable on a group mate - its primary use isn't to save the Shadowknight but to clear aggro from a friend. I believe it's also on a long recast - 5 mins if I recall correctly.

I played a Shadowknight on PvE just to compare the difference with my main Paladin. I got him to 42 I think. The big thing about Shadowknights is their efficiency. Their lifetaps are not quite as potent as the Paladin's heal/ward combo, but it's far more power efficient when soloing and the reactive lifetap can be cast on a group mate for off-tanking. There are a few smaller things to consider as well. Their reactive lifetap has the same cast time as our heal/ward. However, their lesser lifetaps are basic attacks and have faster cast times, some are even instant-cast melee attacks. Furthermore, as said before, their damage from lifetaps benefit from INT. I have also read that Shadowknights only have to do the spell damage crit line for AA to get crits on their lifetap heals. I have not confirmed this.

In a nutshell the Paladin is more versatile in its ability to play a healer class when needed (hybrid) while the Shadowknight is more self-serving and offensive with the lifetaps (kind of fits doesn't it?).

This works great for PvE but the problems start to arise in PvP. We see in PvP that Harm Touch is not reduced in potency while Lay on Hands is, and Harm Touch still gets a bonus from INT. The Shadowknight's CAs are combo damage and heal while the Paladin's CAs are seperated out for offense or healing and as such take much longer to cast. When you throw in evac and snare for the Shadowknight - very powerful PvP tools - the Paladin rez starts to dull by comparison.

[holypaladin28]

and kalgore, your kill to death ratio arent much different than mine, your at 2.38, i'm at 2.36... you'll see what i'm talking about when you get past lvl 60 ;]

 

---

 

 lvl 30 i had 150 pvp kills and 300 pvp deaths........now im at 920 kills 388 deaths.  i have no problem getting nice kill streaks going and seeing how i can hold my own witha  lvl 52 most of the time i dont really worry about it.  IMHO pallys kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]

[holypaladin28]

Vathranen I'll let you know the same thing as I let the other guy know. Paladins are THE STRONGEST pvp plate tank. I'm gonna address all your concerns now.

1) our damage output is suposed to be low. However this doesn't mean you cant do good damage. Refusal of conviction, joust, and devout strike do well. palis are ment to do about 250-350 DPS. low damage doesnt mean you cant win though.

our damage out put is low yes but thats balanced with the foe having to cause huges amount of damage to kill us again wards and heals are very useful

2) if anything resists being broken is a strength for the paladin. since our mana pool is from STR and WIS you should have a ridiculously high amount of wisdom anyway, which should give you really really good resists. divine resist in t7 gear is the least common one. so you should feel happy all your damage comes from the divine. #2 is a win win for the paladin.

also we have the taunts that drop divine resist by quite a bit  so all that damage will be even stronger

3) Scouts dont woop me that hard. yeah decap hurts but i dont think ive ever been droped into orange by it. at least not since ive been 70. the ward is amazing. i have the same version as you and it is really really good. tanks have trouble busting though it and im sure it annoys scouts/mages and ESPECIALLY healers. I also have never been droped into orange by any spell due to my wis being high (just like yours should be)

the ward IMO is used as a buffer throw it up and fire off the heals use it samrt and that 1300 can save you

4) your ward does not get reduced in pvp. It is your best friend and the spell you should be casting. Single target heal can be a waste in a 1v1 fight, unless you are at really really low health. I never use healing other than the cool downs in a drawn out fight. if you get interupted every now and then so what, just keep going. i find a good way to keep this from happening is shield bash before a ward and kick before a heal.

exactly

4a) ill take LOH over HT any day. I'd rather fully heal my healer/mage from red health than have a sort of 1 shot. (although you should not ever get one shot) All harmtouch does is spoil SK into thinking they are more powerful than they are. You should be able to resist harm tocuh half the time anyway. LOH = unresistable. lol

yuppers harm touch cant save an SK's buddy from dying but LOE can nothing like casting it just as a buddy is about to die

5) see 4 on how to stop getting interupted on heals. our damage spells are pretty fast cast, cept for the refusal line and brimstone. However i have never been interupted out of brimstone to my knowledge, Ive even been knocked back and it will still keep casting.

6) try out sigil of heroism when your group starts taking damage. They wont take much at all for the next 15 seconds, which should give your healers time to get everyone back up to green. clarion cry taunts initially then taunts THREE MORE TIMES without you even having to do anything! also our encounter taunt lowers divine which is super sweet. so we dont get reactive or interupt taunts? big woop, i can interupt a whole entire group with two different spells. and reactive taunts arent that great in PVP cuz anyone who is good at pvp knows not to waste their CAs on guardians.

you are correct about paladins not being a good 1v1 class, but all qeynos classes do better in groups. so dont sweat it.

doom judgement sucks at lvl 70 =( removes like... one buff... maybe




very very smart pally posted this everyone should listen to him

Message Edited by holypaladin2819 on 08-02-2006 04:45 PM

[Vathranen]

Just enjoy it while it lasts Kalgore. You're in for a nasty surprise at level 50.

[enjoilab]

dunno about you but at lvl 70 the pvp became so much fun to me. one word lets me kill fps before the kill me resists!!! i can not preach it enough!!!

if you have resists in pvp you will survive!!! 

[Vathranen]

Balios you have to tell me where you're finding all these mage freeps! Do they spawn in Bonemire? Seems like all I keep finding are brigands and bruisers, and you can't resist them.

[enjoilab]

let them get in combat use divine aura heal yourself castigate then spam all your CAs with doom judgement keep warding yourself too...and the mages are raiding dont ya know?

 

rhone how highs your mit and all your resists?

 

have you ever seen a necro before??? theres your mage

Message Edited by enjoilabel on 08-03-2006 02:02 AM

[Vathranen]

I focus primarily on Disease/Poison resists but all of my resists are 60%+.  Mitigation is 50% give or take. I don't have divine aura maybe I should try it out - I'm mainly focused on grouping so I have INT and WIS lines right now. No, I've never seen a necro - only their pets - and I haven't resisted a necro pet spell yet

[Supernova17]

---

ChopStix wrote:

defensive stance.

mitigation-3400

avoidance 46%

health 6100

---

Your mitigation is extremely low for level 70. My alt Pally gets legendary gear from farming instances and some fabled from easy T6 raids: Mitigation: 4408 Avoidance: 46.3% Health: 7283 And raid Paladins equipped in T7 gear can come out with around 5000-5500 self buffed mitigation.

[enjoilab]

well i can have the gear to raise all my resists to a point were they dont hurt me nearly enough to kill me right out

well my mit is at 4.6k

health is 6.9k

avo is crappy with 47%

but it is very good idea to invest in resist jewelery that is player made and divine aura really made me a pvp machine

[Vathranen]

Okay Balios I'm willing to give Divine Aura a shot. I'll look into the player made resist jewelry but most of mine is hard to beat already. I don't get hurt much from magic, but don't fight magic users much anyway. My problem is brigands and bruisers - too many interrupts to fight back. What other AA points have you chosen? I'm starting to think INT line isn't so good for PvP since I can't get any heals off anyway it's sort of wasted.

[Jaycia]

3 words to the OP Poison & Disease resists. They are your freinds. Get those up over 5k and no necro or warlock will be able to touch you and a Scouts poisons will very rarely proc. Not to mention our arch enemy the sk will be helpless against you as every one of their attacks is disease based.

Banthor

64 Paladin - Venekor

 

Message Edited by Jayciann on 08-04-2006 06:36 PM

[Vathranen]

Yeah I've got 70% disease & poison resist. It's the interrupts that kill me.

[Ramglob]

My opinions come from a SK's point of view.  I find the two classes very similiar from a PVP perspective.  I personally like the SK due to its ability to take down Infamy very quickly but both classes can be a nasty matchup for the opposing side if used properlySolo SK's and Pallies have their difficulty.  Very simply if you don't have track.......you can not PVP effectively solo......it just can't happen.  Track enables classes to pick and choose their fights instead of fights choosing them.  Without track you are a sitting duck for higher level classes to simply gank you.Group Pallies and SK's can be awesome.  Although I am not afraid of fighting a Pally 1 VS 1, I am quite respectful when fighting one in a group.  Pally's can keep themselves alive which makes them a very difficult opponenent once buffs are removed and mitigation is lowered.  Pally's have taunts, stuns, do descent damage ( not great but enough), and can heal very effectively and keep group members alive.  In fact I would say that Sk's and Pally's in group PVP are top 5.  I duo 100% of the time with a Brig.  Both of us are Masters and have become very strong at taking on groups of 2 or 3 equal con opponents.  Pally's make bad matchups for us.  We came across a Monk / Pally combo and thought twice about engaging.  Very bad matchup for an SK / Brig.  I just wanted to give your class some props.  Pally's are a good class, but just have to be used intelligently to be effective.  Master Squiggy SK Nagafen"The Kelly Gang"

[Chia_Pet]

People can argue all they want that pallys are just fine, but the proof is in the numbers played.Sorry, they are NOT on par with many other classes at ALL. to Say otherwise is just wishful thinking. facts are facts, and If pallys and other classes were just fine, as some here seem to believe, they would be more numerous and people wouldnt find them so frustrating.The problem here is numbers people, time to cast and time to take damage. the amount of time it takes for many DPS classes to dish out damage as opposed to the pallys and many healers abilities to heal that is Skewed.Add to that the general nerf we have where heals are cut by 20% and you got a real problem.Sorry but a DPS class of the same lvl should DIE to a Tank. just as a mage should DIE to a scout class that gets close, just as a TANK should DIE from a mage if he cant get up close.checks and balances, these are missing currently, which is why there is such a dominating presence of a small amount of classes.

[holypaladin28]

okay im a pvp pally on vox.  im lvl 50 i have 4k life right now.  (need lvl 52 for my next armor) my mit is 2500  all resists are from 2k-4k  my avoid is 45 percent.  16 AA points  used down the INT line  40 % chance for crit damage and 31 % chance for crit heal.

 

when i use my pally i have  ward thats 700 so 4700 damage needs to be done so then i have an 800 group heal and an 500 single target heal.  i also have that nice 3k IH and another self heal for 1300 so with heals and wards the player needs to do about 9800 in damage before i die and thats only using one ward and heal and i use my ward ever 24 seconds.

 

for attack you need to fire off the tuaunt that lowers divine resist.  as it is most people have very little divine resist i fought someon in the arena that had 300 debuffed it to zero and had my spells hitting for great damage.

 

i team witha swashy lvl 47 and we can take done any a single lvl 56 regardless of class 90 percent of the time.  we have yet to lose to another even con duo and have taking out a group of 6 greens and blues like nothing.  the reason the swashy is dps i act as bonus dps and i taunt to take the damage but i can also keep that swashy alive alot longer

 

as far as going solo casters are dead even if 6 lvl s higher then me.  scouts 60 percent chance to kill if they are even or yellow.  ill go after any green or blue and have a great chance of winning 

 

ending this anyone that wants to think different just cant play a pally its alot more then just mashing a few buttons with dps you need to have a system and if you want roll a scout on vox and met me in the arena