Why are we addressing class balance by altering a Troubs JC???

[Arieva]

Why in gods green earth would you guys choose to adjust class balance by selectively making a bards ability effect some classes more than others?? This is fairly ridiculous. First of all as a conjuror I like the damage applied by Jester's ruse. I could care less about the fervor but with the most recent update notes:

Troubador

• Rank 5 of Enhance: Jester's Cap will now grant fervor if Jester's Cap is cast on an Assassin, Ranger, Warlock, or Wizard.

Every predator and sorcerer now have a compelling argument to basically take everyone but them out of the Jcap rotation. Most troubs only pick two targets to Jcap to start with...

Fix predators and sorcerers by addressing their own abilities, not my Troub's. You're putting bards in a crossfire here and its not fair considering the class is already one of the hardest to find folks willing to play/have fun on.

Or if you have to keep this ridiculousness make the fervor apply to all and give dirges a similar ability to keep the scouts in their groups happy.

Arieva said: ↑

“Why in gods green earth would you guys choose to adjust class balance by selectively making a bards ability effect some classes more than others?? This is fairly ridiculous. First of all as a conjuror I like the damage applied by Jester's ruse. I could care less about the fervor but with the most recent update notes:

Troubador

• Rank 5 of Enhance: Jester's Cap will now grant fervor if Jester's Cap is cast on an Assassin, Ranger, Warlock, or Wizard.

Every predator and sorcerer now have a compelling argument to basically take everyone but them out of the Jcap rotation. Most troubs only pick two targets to Jcap to start with...


Fix predators and sorcerers by addressing their own abilities, not my Troub's. You're putting bards in a crossfire here and its not fair considering the class is already one of the hardest to find folks willing to play/have fun on.

Or if you have to keep this ridiculousness make the fervor apply to all and give dirges a similar ability to keep the scouts in their groups happy.”

are you sad that youre gonna actually work in a support role like bards are intended rather than padding your own parse?

on a sidenote....how much fervor is it giving?

[duckster]

From memory troubs buff slightly less fervor on their group buffs in terms of fervor but i do find this approach rather strange.

If anything the fervor granted should be based on the person its cast on(statwise). There are likely some non predator/sorcs with better stats/gear than the targets they are intending this spell to be used on.

Failing the above being poorly implemented - make it groupwide shared fervor and return a portion to the bard so they can feel like they aren't there to buff everyone but themselves(bards need love too for raid dps - RO charges for example and their combat abilities are dire outside of miracles).

This is the 1st of the class changes so i dont believe this will remain as is. Bards are support but they are not buffbots or least should not be. Give them some loving with buffs too.

Lets not forget heartbound giving 30 fervor(remove that and give it to the utility classes imo).

So is the argument here that you shouldn't cast Jcap on yourself anymore and now you choose a pred/sorc to cast it on instead?

All i agree with is remove the heartbound buff, so sick of wasteing raid time trying to get everyone HB.

[Arieva]

No the argument I'm making has nothing to do with Jcapping the troub themselves. Its taking Summoners, BL's, Chanters, even the occasional rogue out of the rotation because they aren't cool enough to get fervor on the effect. I understand maybe Devs feel that predators and sorcerers are falling behind but why would they adjust a bards ability to reflect that? Why wouldn't they adjust the predators and sorcerers and leave the bard out of it. Or if they feel this is somehow supposed to make bards more playable, they apply the same sort of effect to dirges as well so 1-2 troubs in a raid aren't trying to cover every dps with a desireable effect.

First of all Predators get the ability to have a 100% fervor proc and while its not obviously always up..why would a troub that conventionally buffs mages want to go cross raid and Jcap an assassin/ranger just for fervor. But now that they've done this change the predators will expect it and if the troub doesn't feel like doing so its going to turn into a fight.

For those that want to argue about the bard always jcapping themselves over a dps, while my own group troub (I'm a conjuror in case you guys didn't notice above) doesn't make a habit of it, have you ever stopped to ask why they do? Could it be that all their abilities are so anemic at this point that Jcap is a huge parser for them. Chanters got temporal mimicry and while its not a perfect solution for their class dps, at least its something. Bards never got afforded the same type of ability and it seems they are really feeling it at this point.

I'm a raid leader and my husband plays a troub for us in raids so I know how he operates. He generally takes his two t1 dps in his group and Jcaps them, only jcapping himself before an RO. Often times the 2 dps in his group are a conji and a BL. The other troub group runs a sorcerer and a summoner. So at the moment those classes are used to getting JCapped and the associated Jesters ruse. DB has just told the 3/4 folks in those groups they aren't cool enough to get that because they don't benefit from the associated fervor, and burdened the troub to either set up macro's or go cross raid through the raid window to jcap predators who are often in dirge groups.

Jesters ruse did 4-5% of my parse on the last kill of Chel'drak and Psionists on live. So yes, I'm a little upset that DB has opened up the can of worms that says a Troub should be putting that effect on a predator over a fast casting mage in his group like a summoner or hell even a chanter (illy's with class cloaks are t1 dps now in case you didn't get the memo). I'd rather them put whatever fervor buff they want to see go to the sorcerers and predators on those classes and make meaningful changes to the bard classes to bring them up to a point where people actually like and want to play them in groups/raids.

Well said

Arieva said: ↑

“I'd rather them put whatever fervor buff they want to see go to the sorcerers and predators on those classes and make meaningful changes to the bard classes to bring them up to a point where people actually like and want to play them in groups/raids.”

Seconded. Buff those classes by buffing those classes, rather than putting unnecessary restrictions on Troubs, please.

Should all the dps buff always be cast on T1 dps, only to make them happy by increasing their dps ? Or should the dps buff be cast on the class / person that make the most use of it ?

We will soon see people make tantrums and request those buff because they are of the right class, when someone else in the group could do two of three time more damage with it even without the fervor buff.

If you don't want troub to cast it on themself add a component that prevent it, but let them do their job and cast it on the group/raid member that will use it to its full potencial.

That applies to any change that will be coming. It's nor because someone is playing a T1 classes that he knows how to play it the correct way, and have the right equipment to be the best dps in a group setup.

I dont care about this change as my guild have no any sorcs or predators in raid and dont plan recruit them, so this change for jcap give me free 5 aa's and dont affect my jcap rotation. But both bards utility now is joke and its cant be fixed by giving sinergy with **** t1 dpsers.
Only one thing keep me playing troub instead swashbuckler or assassin as raid utility class is "Abhorrent Verse" AA combined with myth hammer that give permanent 50% group aggro transfer which is absolutely must have with beaslords and summoners that deal 800m+ solo target damage.

Just make it a group buff. There, fixed.

[Errrorr]

+1 to not understanding this change or intention. Of all troub stuff that could be changed, Jcap was bottom of list.

Don't feel too bad, they're fixing clerics by giving them abilities to make shamans wards work better!


Templar

• Reverence: Reduces the damage that bleeds through wards on the target.

Inquisitor

• Deny now reduces the target's ability to bleed through wards.

[Diveris]

kluxor said: ↑

“are you sad that youre gonna actually work in a support role like bards are intended rather than padding your own parse?

on a sidenote....how much fervor is it giving?”

Troubs usually choose the two best targets for ruse proc; and have always worked in a support role. Only time any bard I know is concerned with padding their parse is when it comes time for RO recording.

The problem with this many have is having the classes chosen for them. Any bard can choose who they would like to buff, and most choose the player who will benefit from them most.

Neiloch said: ↑

“Specific Inter class dependency = bad. This is like if Dispatch only boosted sorcerer DPS.

Balancing specific classes by making changes to another is just a flat out bad idea. utility classes giving out buffs to EVERYONE is one thing, one handful of classes only benefiting another handful of classes is just a recipe for disaster.”

it really isnt much different than "increases noxious dmg done to target by X%" except instead of limiting by the dmg type its limited by class. Lets be honest too, predators and sorcerers need the increase a whole hell of a lot more than summoners and beastlords

[Diveris]

kluxor said: ↑

“it really isnt much different than "increases noxious dmg done to target by X%" except instead of limiting by the dmg type its limited by class. Lets be honest too, predators and sorcerers need the increase a whole hell of a lot more than summoners and beastlords”

Honestly, the person who procs it more needs it more. You are worried about bards padding their parse, but you want to pad a sorcerer or preds? It's about the benefit to the raid or group to a good bard. And whoever makes the most of the proc is adding more to the raid wide/zone wide.

[Arieva]

If predators and sorcerers need it more than give it to them in their aa's. What sense does it make to remove 4-5% of another classes parse by taking jesters ruse out of the equation for them. Basically its an indirect nerf to anyone that isn't a sorcerer or predator that was previously getting it..assuming of course the bard chooses to alter their rotation away from those players due to this aa

I'd rather see meaningful changes made to assassin abilities / equipment. For example:

1. Increase the duration of concealment and IPS from 7 to 10 seconds to account for raid lag.
2. Increase the replicated damage of Shadow from 30% to 40-50% w/ the same duration (the ranger version of this ability is currently superior because of ethereal onslaught + aura of immolation).
3. Allow dumbfire pets in general to automatically switch to other encounter members if the primary target is killed before the spell expires naturally.
4. Modify dexterous attacks (heroic alternate advancement) to instead increase the base damage (before other modifiers) of affected abilities by 100%.
5. Add mortal blade to the list of abilities affected by dexterous attacks - the base damage of this ability is currently too low for its recast time.
6. Add a significant amount of combat art double attack to KA equipment - if you want scouts to gear like mages, make us fight like them.
7. Improve the base damage of Exemplar's Caustic Poison / Hemotoxin / Vitality Breach -- this change would be beneficial for both rogues and predators. I want it to be one of the top 3-5 abilities in my ACT breakdown at all times.

Make j-cap a group temp buff.

Yards said: ↑

“Make j-cap a group temp buff.”

As bards player i can say jcap is fine in current state and dont need changes.
At this moment there's no point to have dirges in guild raid roster, and troubs only needed for charm adds on Kraletus and transfer aggro from t1 dps classes.
Both bards need full rewamp their utility.
For dev's i can suggest next changes for made this classes viable and fun:
1. Remove from focus effects "Focus:Aria of Magic(trigger chance)" and "Focus: Dead Calm", add half of this effect to EoF aa's enhances. Then add "Focus:Sinister strike" that will work same as old "Understanding the Weak Spots" prock: Allows mastery attack to be used on any target and increases the base damage by 300%. Most bard using outdated jewelry with this prock.
2. Rewamp "Perfection of Maestro" and "Cacofony of Blades" for it gives limited ammount of trigers but every next trigger deal increased ammount of damage, same as rogue's "Dance of Metal". This key bards ablities dont give enough raid utility now with their low damage.
3. Remove scale with fervor from "Victorious Concerto" and add fervor scale to "Rhythmic Overture".
Most bards at encounter pull start their RO chain with prebuffed "Requiem" and have fervor prock from rune orand myth hammer during effect of RO, then they need to wait "Requiem" and rune cd for make good VC, for this time most mobs already dead. If bard starts RO chain without "Requiem" and prebuff it for VC, DPS classes will sent their high damage abilities on cooldown with out bard's fervor boost, and players cant control first eth.runehammer prock.
4. Remove flurry from dirge myth buff, and add same ammount of double cast or base potency instead. Or better unnerf it as was during RoKTsO era, with max hit prock. This class havent anything good or unique that other classes can bring to raid so its be nice satisfaction for dirges.

[Neiloch]

Specific Inter class dependency = bad. This is like if Dispatch only boosted sorcerer DPS.

Balancing specific classes by making changes to another is just a flat out bad idea. utility classes giving out buffs to EVERYONE is one thing, one handful of classes only benefiting another handful of classes is just a recipe for disaster.

Honestly, concerning Jcap, I had this conversation with a predator in my raid force. He was upset that he was no longer getting Jcap. The argument that I had with him was the fact that, as a mage with 3k CB and 10k potency, the damage I proc on Jcap is almost double what the output would be if cast on him, as a predator with 2k CB and 9k Potency. Through trials, we confirmed my argument. Of course he loved having the buff, because it bloated his parse a little bit, but the difference in raid wide DPS from 30-50 million to 70-100 million isn't small. At some point it's about what's good for the raid and not what's good for the ego. A troub casting Jcap on themselves because "Chanters get mimicry and it's just not fair for the bard's parse that they didn't get something cool, so I Jcap myself for the 20-30 million I can gain from ruse instead of casting it on the proper people in my raid who would get 100 million from it" is a stupid argument, from a raid standpoint. As far as PUG grouping goes, carry on.

All you're crying got it removed... LOL

[Errrorr]

Rather it be removed, and attention given to a troub ability that could actually use fine tuning. Jcap in current form is more than adequate.

ABILITIES

• Removed fervor bonus from Enhance: Jester's Cap

Good job on the whine troubs (well, the non-predators/sorcerers that are /sadfaced they'd stop getting their parse padded by jcap really) and got this removed. This was like how my kids were crying cause they wanted two pieces of candy instead of just one bonus piece before dinner, instead of them getting their way, they lost it all. Congrats! Now you can continue whining about your low dps and lack of utility you provide

Ykysh said: ↑

“As bards player i can say jcap is fine in current state and dont need changes.
At this moment there's no point to have dirges in guild raid roster, and troubs only needed for charm adds on Kraletus and transfer aggro from t1 dps classes.
Both bards need full rewamp their utility.
For dev's i can suggest next changes for made this classes viable and fun:
1. Remove from focus effects "Focus:Aria of Magic(trigger chance)" and "Focus: Dead Calm", add half of this effect to EoF aa's enhances. Then add "Focus:Sinister strike" that will work same as old "Understanding the Weak Spots" prock: Allows mastery attack to be used on any target and increases the base damage by 300%. Most bard using outdated jewelry with this prock.
2. Rewamp "Perfection of Maestro" and "Cacofony of Blades" for it gives limited ammount of trigers but every next trigger deal increased ammount of damage, same as rogue's "Dance of Metal". This key bards ablities dont give enough raid utility now with their low damage.
3. Remove scale with fervor from "Victorious Concerto" and add fervor scale to "Rhythmic Overture".
Most bards at encounter pull start their RO chain with prebuffed "Requiem" and have fervor prock from rune orand myth hammer during effect of RO, then they need to wait "Requiem" and rune cd for make good VC, for this time most mobs already dead. If bard starts RO chain without "Requiem" and prebuff it for VC, DPS classes will sent their high damage abilities on cooldown with out bard's fervor boost, and players cant control first eth.runehammer prock.
4. Remove flurry from dirge myth buff, and add same ammount of double cast or base potency instead. Or better unnerf it as was during RoKTsO era, with max hit prock. This class havent anything good or unique that other classes can bring to raid so its be nice satisfaction for dirges.”

I disagree. You may say you play bard, but i think you are forgetting some things.
Dirges provide BC (almost 500 potency to the right t1 dps) , increased trigger chance (this is big), amp damage on the mob (upwards of 5% total), group wide fervor (almost 23, if grand mastered), % damage increase to all combat arts, group wide mitigation, avoidance, stoneskin procs, decrease combat mitigation on the mob (this will be MASSIVE) , not to mention BILLIONS of added damage with VC, all added that we can put out pretty good dps while providing all of these things. (i sustain ~250m-350m single target).
Perfection of the Maestro and Cacophony of Blades are not meant to do a lot of damage. They are just bonus dps, with some stat increase.
The fervor scale with VC/RO is exactly where it needs to be. This way it accounts for each individual players' fervor.
Base potency wouldn't be too bad on the myth buff, but the flurry portion needs to stay.
Dirges are currently in a very good state. Don't mess with them too much.

Increased trigger chance.
Yes i forget about this thing and its good utility.
Dirges provide BC (almost 500 potency to the right t1 dps).
While troub provide UT, wich give 40-70m dps if placed on good geared beastlord. After expack its will be buffed.
Group wide fervor (almost 23, if grand mastered).
Both bards have this, but troub 2 fervor lesser its not big difference.
Stoneskin procs.
That give absorb versus physical damage only, while 23 of encounters have mobs with non phys auto attack and all raid dots hit with non phys damage. And troub have stoneskin that absorb non phys damage, and this buff also give 7% incoming heal to every group member.
Group wide mitigation, avoidance.
Both bards have this while troub also have max hp and stamina buff.
Perfection of the Maestro and Cacophony of Blades are not meant to do a lot of damage. They are just bonus dps, with some stat increase.
But they deal x3 less raidwide damage then swash's "Pirate's Perciption" and sin's "Shared Poison" which is suposted to be same just bonus dps abilities.

[Arieva]

Glad this was reversed...this was the wrong way to address class balance. Thanks for listening

kluxor said: ↑

“are you sad that youre gonna actually work in a support role like bards are intended rather than padding your own parse?

on a sidenote....how much fervor is it giving?”

Badly misdirected; how are Conj a 'support' class?

Conj would be sat if it fell behind dps wise that's how much utility we bring to the table.