When will they finaly remove full plated berserkers

thark · 02-20-2006, 05:51 AM

I hope they will remove the silly full plate and shield on the berserker class, I didnt choose a zerk to run around in full plate,..Right now the Berserk class renders guardians totally useless...Why in the world did SOE come to the conclusion berserkers needed vanguard aswell..

I like to play a REAL berserker..not a tank..

/Rigge

Khal · 02-20-2006, 06:03 AM

You picked the wrong class, blame yourself, not sony.

Ignore the names of the classes sony uses, they are just an offensive warrior and defensive warrior named berserker and guardian. Both tank well, guardian better. Both myself and our Guardian tank alot. Can he tank things that I can't? No. Does he have an easyer time on some mobs? Ya sometimes, he gets a few more defensive abilities.

Thinking they are gonna radically change the berserker is nuts. Want to be DPS play a scout.

Wolfmon · 02-20-2006, 06:26 AM

Sry bud, you picked the wrong class.

I love my full plate berserker, hope that never changes.

thark · 02-20-2006, 06:44 AM

Khalad wrote:
You picked the wrong class, blame yourself, not sony.

Ignore the names of the classes sony uses, they are just an offensive warrior and defensive warrior named berserker and guardian. Both tank well, guardian better. Both myself and our Guardian tank alot. Can he tank things that I can't? No. Does he have an easyer time on some mobs? Ya sometimes, he gets a few more defensive abilities.

Thinking they are gonna radically change the berserker is nuts. Want to be DPS play a scout.

Well, If you think guardian tanks that much better why do you think guardians is almost extinct.? Berserkers tank aswell as guardians in it's current version and that is wrong...Berzerkers should not be tanks..

And NO i didnt choose the wrong class, I just feel bad for all the guardians out there, Why would anyone choose a guardian when you can choose a berserker that does more DPS and tanks aswell(or close)

I love some of the abillities of the zerker like rampage and open wounds, those are berzerker in a nutshell, but a tank, no. Yes when I first rolled my zerker I didnt expect to ever tank(only in rare occassions maybe)..But I do it all the time..Guardians even get's shafted out there in raids because zerkers has more dps, may aswell use the zerker..Multiple friends has stopped playing their guardians because of this..We need a real tank in EQ2, thats my opinion atleast..

/Rigge

Kule · 02-20-2006, 07:28 AM

thark wrote: Well, If you think guardian tanks that much better why do you think guardians is almost extinct.?

MistmooreSunday February 19, 20069:12 PM, EST98 Gaurdians online78 Berserkers online thark wrote: I love some of the abillities of the zerker like rampage and open wounds, those are berzerker in a nutshell, but a tank, no. Yes when I first rolled my zerker I didnt expect to ever tank(only in rare occassions maybe)..But I do it all the time..Did you read the EQ2 Manual before making you're Zerk? Did you notice it said you wear vanguard? Oh wait, you didn't.. but decided to change classes once you reached 20 a realized you have the ability to wear plate? Look, nobody is forcing you to tank. With our STR buff, outfitted decently you can surpass STR soft-cap easily if you aren't worried about mitigation. Instead of upgrading you're defense stuff, go offensive. Learn to play Zerk as DPS and you will... demolish. thark wrote: Guardians even get's shafted out there in raids because zerkers has more dps, may aswell use the zerker..Multiple friends has stopped playing their guardians because of this..If whoever is running your Raids is choosing a Zerk over Guard as MT because they can DPS more than them, they need to learn a little about class roles. Zerk DPS is half of our aggro management. What does having a Zerk MT or not have anything to do with a Guards ability? Different tanks, different situations. Which brings me to my next point. thark wrote: We need a real tank in EQ2, thats my opinion atleast..We have 6 "real" tanks. They excel in some similar and dissimilar ways. They all have strengths.

Khal · 02-20-2006, 08:02 AM

"Well, If you think guardian tanks that much better why do you think guardians is almost extinct.? Berserkers tank aswell as guardians in it's current version and that is wrong...Berzerkers should not be tanks.."

Group mobs? Ya sure. Raiding, guardian is better. Still, berserkers and crusaders can tank raid mobs and tank them well, but guardian will always be the top. If i was picking a tank for non raiding, just grouping would never go guardian, thats just how the class is.

Message Edited by Khalad on 02-19-200607:04 PM

Message Edited by Khalad on 06-03-2006 09:46 AM

firewolf · 02-20-2006, 12:10 PM

I've played in a trio group of guardian, warden and berserker, around level 40 going in Runnyeye. As berserker, I went fully offensive and unleashing all the AE on group of 4-6 heroic mobs that are banging on the guardian. Only drew agro once in the 2 hours sessions there. We were practically unstoppable, killing everything in there. There are already enough dps classes in the game. No need to add berserker to the list. Berserker is just nice the way it is. A unique tank that excel at doing respectable AE damage. Just the way I like it. If you play berserker as a pure dps class, you'll be very dissappointed. Like others have said, play a mage or scout. I've no idea why someone would choose a plate wearing class and think it is a dps class. Asking for berserker to be turned into dps class is even worst. There are 4 scount classes for you to choose from if you want that dps. If you like to wear leather so much, there are 2 brawler classes that happens to have solid dps too. So why on earth would a berserker need to be changed to wearing leather and have more dps?

thark · 02-20-2006, 01:05 PM

firewolf wrote:I've played in a trio group of guardian, warden and berserker, around level 40 going in Runnyeye. As berserker, I went fully offensive and unleashing all the AE on group of 4-6 heroic mobs that are banging on the guardian. Only drew agro once in the 2 hours sessions there. We were practically unstoppable, killing everything in there. There are already enough dps classes in the game. No need to add berserker to the list. Berserker is just nice the way it is. A unique tank that excel at doing respectable AE damage. Just the way I like it. If you play berserker as a pure dps class, you'll be very dissappointed. Like others have said, play a mage or scout. I've no idea why someone would choose a plate wearing class and think it is a dps class. Asking for berserker to be turned into dps class is even worst. There are 4 scount classes for you to choose from if you want that dps. If you like to wear leather so much, there are 2 brawler classes that happens to have solid dps too. So why on earth would a berserker need to be changed to wearing leather and have more dps?

I didnt say I want berserkers to switch to a pure DPS class, I said they need to make guardians a viable choice when you make your characther, right now there is no real need to choose a guardian over berserker..and finaly yes Guardian is somewhat better in tanking but not as much as it should be, there should be a huge diffrence between these 2, and that isn't the case..

PS: BTW the manual sais heavy plate for berserker and heavy plate and vanguard for guardian..this was changed during beta, maybe this is the diffrence I seek..

/Rigge

Message Edited by thark on 02-20-200612:13 AM

Renzai · 02-20-2006, 06:39 PM

I fail to see how people who may decide not to select a guardian at creation affects your gameplay.

uux · 02-20-2006, 07:03 PM

thark wrote:I didnt say I want berserkers to switch to a pure DPS class, I said they need to make guardians a viable choice when you make your characther, right now there is no real need to choose a guardian over berserker..and finaly yes Guardian is somewhat better in tanking but not as much as it should be, there should be a huge diffrence between these 2, and that isn't the case..

The manual also states that Guardians are defensive tanks. Maybe all the zerkers should rally to have your weapons removed. All your combat arts should be replaced with shield blocking techniques as well (that do not do any damage). No, I'm not serious. This is basically my way of telling you to get real.

PS: BTW the manual sais heavy plate for berserker and heavy plate and vanguard for guardian..this was changed during beta, maybe this is the diffrence I seek..

What crafted plate armor exists in addition to vanguard? What dropped plate armor is vanguard? There appears to be no distinction in plate armor and "vanguard" is nothing more than part of the name. You're asking for a huge change in itemization. Either way, it doesn't belong here.I've seen enough calls to nerf other classes in the Guardian forums. Please do not start bringing them here.

Grimve · 02-20-2006, 07:56 PM

I didnt choose a zerk to run around in full plate

No one is forcing you to run around in full plate. By all means, feel free to wear leather if that's what you really want...

Message Edited by Grimveld on 02-20-200606:59 AM

lstead · 02-20-2006, 08:19 PM

I think what you're looking for is a bruiser. And yes, I wish they had made one of the two avoidance tanks more weapons based rather than hand to hand. (And I mean classic medieval weapons, not bo-sticks or staves.)But I started my berserker specifically because I wanted an offensive dual wielding plate class. No, I can't say I want that taken away.

JNewby · 02-20-2006, 08:20 PM

thark wrote:
I hope they will remove the silly full plate and shield on the berserker class, I didnt choose a zerk to run around in full plate,..Right now the Berserk class renders guardians totally useless...Why in the world did SOE come to the conclusion berserkers needed vanguard aswell..

I like to play a REAL berserker..not a tank..

/Rigge

on end game content Ithink it would actually help the bezerker class to lose they plate armor and rack up some more dps... beingthat 2 and very very rarely 3 tanks are used on raids... msot of the time just one... it kinda means either they will be stuck with the guardian curse togetting into guilds... which is uhh no thanks we are good dont need guards atm.

JNewby · 02-20-2006, 08:24 PM

thark wrote:

PS: BTW the manual sais heavy plate for berserker and heavy plate and vanguard for guardian..this was changed during beta, maybe this is the diffrence I seek..
/Rigge
Message Edited by thark on 02-20-200612:13 AM

hah powend

thark · 02-20-2006, 09:06 PM

uux wrote:
I've seen enough calls to nerf other classes in the Guardian forums. Please do not start bringing them here.

Well, Why not, Im a berserker myself, and can see that everyone in my guild has stopped playing the guardian class that is supposed to be a key figure in many situations,and the reason they stopped playing is the berserker class, and the fact that the guardian is somewhat boring to play

If they don't do something about this then they need to up the power of the Guardian class..

/Rigge

Khal · 02-20-2006, 09:27 PM

thark, does your guild raid? If so, what zones/mobs do you hit?

Message Edited by Khalad on 02-20-200608:44 AM

infernus006 · 02-20-2006, 10:12 PM

Wow I am so sick of this dumb arguement."yes Guardian is somewhat better in tanking but not as much as it should be, there should be a huge diffrence between these 2, and that isn't the case.."Why should there be a huge difference between the two subclasses? None of the other subclasses in the game have a huge desparity between them. Why should ours? Take Paladins and Shadow Knights. They both wear plate/Vanguard armor. They both have about the same tanking ability. Shadow Knights have more DPS than Paladin's though because Paladins are more defensive in nature. Monks and Bruisers can be compared the same way. Just as Berserkers and Guardians. What you are asking is for them to rewrite the whole game and for no good reason at all."Berzerkers should not be tanks.."Says who?"Why would anyone choose a guardian when you can choose a berserker that does more DPS and tanks aswell(or close)"Because Guardians get more/better taunts and more/better defensive capabilities than we do.

uux · 02-20-2006, 10:58 PM

thark wrote:
uux wrote:
I've seen enough calls to nerf other classes in the Guardian forums. Please do not start bringing them here.
Well, Why not, Im a berserker myself, and can see that everyone in my guild has stopped playing the guardian class that is supposed to be a key figure in many situations,and the reason they stopped playing is the berserker class, and the fact that the guardian is somewhat boring to play
If they don't do something about this then they need to up the power of the Guardian class..

Bingo. They need to fix the guardian class or make it fun. Do not change the berserker class so it less desirable than a guardian, but instead make the guardian class more desirable. However, I doubt guardians are any less desirable now. If someone isn't having fun playing a guardian, then the class just wasn't for them. I really don't see a swarm of people on my server dropping their guards in favor of rolling a zerker instead. There might be issues with that class, but then again that just puts guardians in the same boat as everyone else. This also isn't the forum for guardian issues.

uux · 02-20-2006, 11:12 PM

infernus006 wrote:Wow I am so sick of this dumb arguement.

Me too.

"Why would anyone choose a guardian when you can choose a berserker that does more DPS and tanks aswell(or close)"Because Guardians get more/better taunts and more/better defensive capabilities than we do.

I find it funny how often that is overlooked. I hope those that switch to berserkers from guardians find what they are looking for, but I think most are not going to be any happier after they find out all the rumors about the berserker class being so much uber just isn't true. (Despite what Guardians read in the Guardian forum, we do not really get self heals, group heals, evac, wards, self invis, lifetaps, awesome debuffs, super unresistable taunts, and ranger or mage DPS)

Ep · 02-20-2006, 11:14 PM

someone thought, "oh goody a MMO game and there's a berserker option, well judging from my vast knowledge of viking lore and my immense amount of time based playing D&D, a berserker can ONLY be how i envision it to be"your playing a game, not make your fantasy come true.really, others are correct, you sound like your better off re rolling a brusier, a leather only wearing fighter who can do dps...

Message Edited by Epyx on 02-20-200601:15 PM

Buggrit · 02-21-2006, 12:32 AM

Guardians have always be "The raid tank" so to speak when i started playing about 3 months after Eq2s realise i couldn't decide what class i got told if i want to tank raids then guardian because thats all they really are raid tanks for group im better off picking a berserker or crusader /shrugand no guardians are not totally useless i know alot of guardians that still play just because 20-30 people on the board say that guards not (not even 1% of the guardians population) does not mean they suckIts the people like that, that just rolled a guard because they were uber unmatched tank and now they don't like it because there the same as everyone elsethe same people that switched to zerkers when we had are god mode period and the same people now playing bruisers/rangersa true zerker sticks it out no matter i may not be that high lvl but i like my berserkeralthough for the moment i've stuck him into retirement while i play my Assassin SMILEY

thark · 02-21-2006, 12:58 AM

Epyx wrote:
someone thought, "oh goody a MMO game and there's a berserker option, well judging from my vast knowledge of viking lore and my immense amount of time based playing D&D, a berserker can ONLY be how i envision it to be"your playing a game, not make your fantasy come true.really, others are correct, you sound like your better off re rolling a brusier, a leather only wearing fighter who can do dps...
Message Edited by Epyx on 02-20-200601:15 PM

hehe, well..It seems you misunderstood me a bit based on my initial post, I like my zerker and don't wan't to trade it with some other class like a bruiser ..What I do like is get Guardians up to par, so that my guild will start to use them again...and if it boils down to loosing my shield and plate in the process I would gladly sacrifice it for a good cause..But if there is other things that could solve this problem i'm all ears SMILEY

Again..Do some of you honestly feel Guardians have that much better defensive capabilities than the berserkers?

/Rigge

infernus006 · 02-21-2006, 01:56 AM

I will never understand how some people actually expect them to change the entire look, feel, role, and function of a class more than a year after it's creation in an MMO just beause it's not exactly the way they envisioned it when they picked up the game last week or because it's not exactly the same as it was in other games that they've played in the past. Especially when there is no need for such a change. There are already plenty of other DPS classes in this game to choose from as it is (8 of them to be exact) and there are only 4 plate tanks. And a lot of people still consider Brawlers to be more DPS than tank since they can only wear leather. They can still tank when they need to of course but they are not usually preferred for it and they do get more DPS than us, or at least they are supposed to.Also, as it has been pointed out many times by myself and others here, no one is stopping any Berserker in this game from wearing leather armor if they really want to. If that's the way you want to look then go for it. Unless you actually tank at all like you're supposed to then it's not going to really hurt you at all to sell your plate to the vendor and get yourself a nice set of leather gear. You can get leather armor that has just as good of stats on it as plate, it just doesn't have the same mitigation. But don't forget, the lighter your armor is the more avoidance you will have. That goes for all classes nowdays, not just Brawlers. Yeah, it would still be kind of dumb to sacrifice all that extra mitigation you could have if you wore plate like you are supposed to but then if all you care about is the looks of your character rather than it's actual abilities then it should be no big deal to you, right? Oh wait, the problem is you don't actually care if you can wear leather or not, you just don't want any Berserkers having the option to wear any kind of plate.The fact of the matter is that the whole idea that SOE has for this class is to be a mean main tank that can deal out a significant amount of damage at the same time that we are taking a good beating. Our class-defining skill, the Berserk proc, has a much greater chance to go off when the Berserker is taking hits rather than just dishing them out. So the more hits we take the more damage we are capable of doing. When tanking grouped mobs we can literally be in a state of Berserk the whole fight that way. And we have to be wearing plate to be able to do that. Leather-wearing fighters have to rely on high avoidance to stay alive while tanking rather than mitigation which allows you to take more hits and withstand the damage from it. And let's face it, Berserkers were just not meant to stand behind the mobs and hit them in the back like scouts, we are meant to be right in the mob's face cussing them out. This class is all about rage. How can you display your immense rage to an enemy and not expect to draw their attention? That would be rather insulting to me. Scouts use evasion tactics and deaggro spells to perform their sneaky attacks from behind without drawing attention. That's their job, not ours. And mages use powerful ranged attacks to hit the enemies from a disance. It is our job to keep the attention of the mobs away from our physically weaker companions. Once agian, accept it or reroll.

Message Edited by infernus006 on 02-20-200604:07 PM

Khal · 02-21-2006, 01:58 AM

thark, does your guild raid? If so, what zones/mobs do you hit?

infernus006 · 02-21-2006, 02:44 AM

thark,

"What I do like is get Guardians up to par, so that my guild will start to use them again...and if it boils down to loosing my shield and plate in the process I would gladly sacrifice it for a good cause."

I find it hilarous that you come here to the Berserker forum to try and get support for the idea of nerfing our class just so the whiny Guardians can feel better about themselves. FYI they are not half as broken as they claim to be. What happened was before LU13 they were way too overpowered so they got nerfed down a little in the CU to be more in line with other tanking classes instead of being far superior to all the other fighters in the game like they were before. SOE said they never intended for Guardians to be that way in the first place and they needed to be fixed so they got fixed. Because of a bug with the way their buffs stacked before the change Guardians could make themselves literally invincible to taking any damage. Because of that bug no one wanted any other class to be their MT for anything, and that includes normal groups as well as raids. We would still get to tank sometimes but only if there wasn't any Guardians around. Now they got that taken away from them and they are crying just like little babies that had a lollipop snatched away and it makes me sick, especially when they try to take it out on us. Because lots of people still don't like Crusaders or Brawlers to be their MT even though they are supposed to be just as good at it as we are now. Berserkers are still the only real competitioin that Guardians have in the MT department right now, especially for raids, and they resent the hell out of us for it. And they act like they are the only ones that got any kind of nerfs in the CU as well, which isn't true at all. Before LU13, Berserkers were the aggro kings of the game. We couldn't take as many hits as Guardians but we sure as hell could keep aggro better than them and anyone else, including all the DPS classes. No one could steal aggro from us no matter what they did if we were paying any kind of attention at all. That got fixed in LU13 as well. Paladins can keep aggro better than us now with their Amends spell. Anyways, my whole main point is don't be listening to those whiny Guardians who try to make you feel bad for being a non-Guardian that actually as some chance at being just as good of a tank as them, because they are really just big selfish crybabies that want every class in the game to be totally gimped compared to them and they can't stand to play the game any other way with any kind of fairness or equality at all. I say be happy with what you got and quit trying to get your own class nerfed. That's just silly. We need to be standing up for ourselves around here and not be letting people of other classes dictate what we should and should not be able to do in this game. Guardians are just going to have to suck it up and learn to accept the fact that they aren't the be all and end all of tanking in this game any longer and learn to deal with some competition just like all the other classes in this game are forced to do.

Message Edited by infernus006 on 02-20-200604:59 PM

BraveSma · 02-21-2006, 02:49 AM

Berserkers and Guardians are both good tanks. Guardians are the better raid/main tanks, as their defensive buffs and almost completely defensive-oriented ability set enables them to absorb alot of damage and protect their group//raidmates.

Berserkers have better hate management because a) their taunts are better and b) they do more damage, however, their offensive buffs (obviously) dont have the defensive impact of a Guardian's. The fact that they can wear vanguard doesn't change the fact that they are very offense-based. With all their buffs up and with berserker state procced, they can attack many times as fast and do loads of damage. They're good off tanks.

So... they're still good damage dealers, they're still "REAL berserkers". And They don't make Guardians obsolete. If you don't like the vanguard, don't wear it. No one is forcing you to.

Message Edited by BraveSmart on 02-20-200601:50 PM

thark · 02-21-2006, 04:43 AM

Khalad wrote:
thark, does your guild raid? If so, what zones/mobs do you hit?

Well, last time we raided we took Lookjaw and Barakah and the SilverDragon in Majdul

Khal · 02-21-2006, 05:26 AM

If you do zones like courts, fighting mobs like sunchild and blackqueen will show you the differences between guardian and berserker, contested barakah in POF, djinn master, pedistal of sky

terrified kill · 02-21-2006, 06:06 AM

he's prolly thinking of eq1 as there berserkers wore chain and was a dps class that only had the ability to wield 2h weapons.

Khalad wrote:
You picked the wrong class, blame yourself, not sony.

Ignore the names of the classes sony uses, they are just an offensive warrior and defensive warrior named berserker and guardian. Both tank well, guardian better. Both myself and our Guardian tank alot. Can he tank things that I can't? No. Does he have an easyer time on some mobs? Ya sometimes, he gets a few more defensive abilities.

Thinking they are gonna radically change the berserker is nuts. Want to be DPS play a scout.

Bremer · 02-21-2006, 06:07 AM

Khalad schrieb:
If you do zones like courts, fighting mobs like sunchild and blackqueen will show you the differences between guardian and berserker, contested barakah in POF, djinn master, pedistal of sky

I allready (tried to) tank blackqueen, because our guardian would die in seconds after his tower of stone was used up. I stood a lot better than him, only problem was the queen nuking for up to 9k heat dmg. Same with sunchild which also deals heat damage. It really sucks that most high end raid mobs do heat damage so that guardians are automatically the better (and in this case only) choice.

02-20-2006, 06:26 AM	#3
Wolfmon Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 35	Sry bud, you picked the wrong class. I love my full plate berserker, hope that never changes. __________________ Nevik 70 Berserker The Arcane Order, Grobb

02-20-2006, 06:44 AM	#4
thark Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 105	Khalad wrote: You picked the wrong class, blame yourself, not sony. Ignore the names of the classes sony uses, they are just an offensive warrior and defensive warrior named berserker and guardian. Both tank well, guardian better. Both myself and our Guardian tank alot. Can he tank things that I can't? No. Does he have an easyer time on some mobs? Ya sometimes, he gets a few more defensive abilities. Thinking they are gonna radically change the berserker is nuts. Want to be DPS play a scout. Well, If you think guardian tanks that much better why do you think guardians is almost extinct.? Berserkers tank aswell as guardians in it's current version and that is wrong...Berzerkers should not be tanks.. And NO i didnt choose the wrong class, I just feel bad for all the guardians out there, Why would anyone choose a guardian when you can choose a berserker that does more DPS and tanks aswell(or close) I love some of the abillities of the zerker like rampage and open wounds, those are berzerker in a nutshell, but a tank, no. Yes when I first rolled my zerker I didnt expect to ever tank(only in rare occassions maybe)..But I do it all the time..Guardians even get's shafted out there in raids because zerkers has more dps, may aswell use the zerker..Multiple friends has stopped playing their guardians because of this..We need a real tank in EQ2, thats my opinion atleast.. /Rigge

02-20-2006, 07:28 AM	#5
Kule General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 91	thark wrote: Well, If you think guardian tanks that much better why do you think guardians is almost extinct.? MistmooreSunday February 19, 20069:12 PM, EST98 Gaurdians online78 Berserkers online thark wrote: I love some of the abillities of the zerker like rampage and open wounds, those are berzerker in a nutshell, but a tank, no. Yes when I first rolled my zerker I didnt expect to ever tank(only in rare occassions maybe)..But I do it all the time..Did you read the EQ2 Manual before making you're Zerk? Did you notice it said you wear vanguard? Oh wait, you didn't.. but decided to change classes once you reached 20 a realized you have the ability to wear plate? Look, nobody is forcing you to tank. With our STR buff, outfitted decently you can surpass STR soft-cap easily if you aren't worried about mitigation. Instead of upgrading you're defense stuff, go offensive. Learn to play Zerk as DPS and you will... demolish. thark wrote: Guardians even get's shafted out there in raids because zerkers has more dps, may aswell use the zerker..Multiple friends has stopped playing their guardians because of this..If whoever is running your Raids is choosing a Zerk over Guard as MT because they can DPS more than them, they need to learn a little about class roles. Zerk DPS is half of our aggro management. What does having a Zerk MT or not have anything to do with a Guards ability? Different tanks, different situations. Which brings me to my next point. thark wrote: We need a real tank in EQ2, thats my opinion atleast..We have 6 "real" tanks. They excel in some similar and dissimilar ways. They all have strengths. __________________

02-20-2006, 06:39 PM	#9
Renzai Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 65	I fail to see how people who may decide not to select a guardian at creation affects your gameplay. __________________ Foxbat - Berzerker Fride Rice - Bruiser Madsen Mc'Mad - Warlock

02-20-2006, 07:03 PM	#10
uux Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 486	thark wrote:I didnt say I want berserkers to switch to a pure DPS class, I said they need to make guardians a viable choice when you make your characther, right now there is no real need to choose a guardian over berserker..and finaly yes Guardian is somewhat better in tanking but not as much as it should be, there should be a huge diffrence between these 2, and that isn't the case.. The manual also states that Guardians are defensive tanks. Maybe all the zerkers should rally to have your weapons removed. All your combat arts should be replaced with shield blocking techniques as well (that do not do any damage). No, I'm not serious. This is basically my way of telling you to get real. PS: BTW the manual sais heavy plate for berserker and heavy plate and vanguard for guardian..this was changed during beta, maybe this is the diffrence I seek.. What crafted plate armor exists in addition to vanguard? What dropped plate armor is vanguard? There appears to be no distinction in plate armor and "vanguard" is nothing more than part of the name. You're asking for a huge change in itemization. Either way, it doesn't belong here.I've seen enough calls to nerf other classes in the Guardian forums. Please do not start bringing them here.

02-20-2006, 05:51 AM	#1
thark Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 105	I hope they will remove the silly full plate and shield on the berserker class, I didnt choose a zerk to run around in full plate,..Right now the Berserk class renders guardians totally useless...Why in the world did SOE come to the conclusion berserkers needed vanguard aswell.. I like to play a REAL berserker..not a tank.. /Rigge

02-20-2006, 06:03 AM	#2
Khal Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 649	You picked the wrong class, blame yourself, not sony. Ignore the names of the classes sony uses, they are just an offensive warrior and defensive warrior named berserker and guardian. Both tank well, guardian better. Both myself and our Guardian tank alot. Can he tank things that I can't? No. Does he have an easyer time on some mobs? Ya sometimes, he gets a few more defensive abilities. Thinking they are gonna radically change the berserker is nuts. Want to be DPS play a scout.

02-20-2006, 08:02 AM	#6
Khal Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 649	"Well, If you think guardian tanks that much better why do you think guardians is almost extinct.? Berserkers tank aswell as guardians in it's current version and that is wrong...Berzerkers should not be tanks.." Group mobs? Ya sure. Raiding, guardian is better. Still, berserkers and crusaders can tank raid mobs and tank them well, but guardian will always be the top. If i was picking a tank for non raiding, just grouping would never go guardian, thats just how the class is. Message Edited by Khalad on 02-19-200607:04 PM Message Edited by Khalad on 06-03-2006 09:46 AM

02-20-2006, 12:10 PM	#7
firewolf Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 181	I've played in a trio group of guardian, warden and berserker, around level 40 going in Runnyeye. As berserker, I went fully offensive and unleashing all the AE on group of 4-6 heroic mobs that are banging on the guardian. Only drew agro once in the 2 hours sessions there. We were practically unstoppable, killing everything in there. There are already enough dps classes in the game. No need to add berserker to the list. Berserker is just nice the way it is. A unique tank that excel at doing respectable AE damage. Just the way I like it. If you play berserker as a pure dps class, you'll be very dissappointed. Like others have said, play a mage or scout. I've no idea why someone would choose a plate wearing class and think it is a dps class. Asking for berserker to be turned into dps class is even worst. There are 4 scount classes for you to choose from if you want that dps. If you like to wear leather so much, there are 2 brawler classes that happens to have solid dps too. So why on earth would a berserker need to be changed to wearing leather and have more dps?

02-20-2006, 01:05 PM	#8
thark Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 105	firewolf wrote:I've played in a trio group of guardian, warden and berserker, around level 40 going in Runnyeye. As berserker, I went fully offensive and unleashing all the AE on group of 4-6 heroic mobs that are banging on the guardian. Only drew agro once in the 2 hours sessions there. We were practically unstoppable, killing everything in there. There are already enough dps classes in the game. No need to add berserker to the list. Berserker is just nice the way it is. A unique tank that excel at doing respectable AE damage. Just the way I like it. If you play berserker as a pure dps class, you'll be very dissappointed. Like others have said, play a mage or scout. I've no idea why someone would choose a plate wearing class and think it is a dps class. Asking for berserker to be turned into dps class is even worst. There are 4 scount classes for you to choose from if you want that dps. If you like to wear leather so much, there are 2 brawler classes that happens to have solid dps too. So why on earth would a berserker need to be changed to wearing leather and have more dps? I didnt say I want berserkers to switch to a pure DPS class, I said they need to make guardians a viable choice when you make your characther, right now there is no real need to choose a guardian over berserker..and finaly yes Guardian is somewhat better in tanking but not as much as it should be, there should be a huge diffrence between these 2, and that isn't the case.. PS: BTW the manual sais heavy plate for berserker and heavy plate and vanguard for guardian..this was changed during beta, maybe this is the diffrence I seek.. /Rigge Message Edited by thark on 02-20-200612:13 AM

02-20-2006, 07:56 PM	#11
Grimve Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 86	I didnt choose a zerk to run around in full plate No one is forcing you to run around in full plate. By all means, feel free to wear leather if that's what you really want... Message Edited by Grimveld on 02-20-200606:59 AM __________________ Grimveld 41 Berserker of Grobb

02-20-2006, 08:19 PM	#12
lstead Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 183	I think what you're looking for is a bruiser. And yes, I wish they had made one of the two avoidance tanks more weapons based rather than hand to hand. (And I mean classic medieval weapons, not bo-sticks or staves.)But I started my berserker specifically because I wanted an offensive dual wielding plate class. No, I can't say I want that taken away. __________________ Kathy, Gnome Mystic Antonia Bayle

02-20-2006, 08:20 PM	#13
JNewby Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 644	thark wrote: I hope they will remove the silly full plate and shield on the berserker class, I didnt choose a zerk to run around in full plate,..Right now the Berserk class renders guardians totally useless...Why in the world did SOE come to the conclusion berserkers needed vanguard aswell.. I like to play a REAL berserker..not a tank.. /Rigge on end game content Ithink it would actually help the bezerker class to lose they plate armor and rack up some more dps... beingthat 2 and very very rarely 3 tanks are used on raids... msot of the time just one... it kinda means either they will be stuck with the guardian curse togetting into guilds... which is uhh no thanks we are good dont need guards atm.

02-20-2006, 08:24 PM	#14
JNewby Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 644	thark wrote: PS: BTW the manual sais heavy plate for berserker and heavy plate and vanguard for guardian..this was changed during beta, maybe this is the diffrence I seek.. /Rigge Message Edited by thark on 02-20-200612:13 AM hah powend

02-20-2006, 09:06 PM	#15
thark Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 105	uux wrote: I've seen enough calls to nerf other classes in the Guardian forums. Please do not start bringing them here. Well, Why not, Im a berserker myself, and can see that everyone in my guild has stopped playing the guardian class that is supposed to be a key figure in many situations,and the reason they stopped playing is the berserker class, and the fact that the guardian is somewhat boring to play If they don't do something about this then they need to up the power of the Guardian class.. /Rigge

02-20-2006, 09:27 PM	#16
Khal Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 649	thark, does your guild raid? If so, what zones/mobs do you hit? Message Edited by Khalad on 02-20-200608:44 AM

02-20-2006, 10:12 PM	#17
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	Wow I am so sick of this dumb arguement."yes Guardian is somewhat better in tanking but not as much as it should be, there should be a huge diffrence between these 2, and that isn't the case.."Why should there be a huge difference between the two subclasses? None of the other subclasses in the game have a huge desparity between them. Why should ours? Take Paladins and Shadow Knights. They both wear plate/Vanguard armor. They both have about the same tanking ability. Shadow Knights have more DPS than Paladin's though because Paladins are more defensive in nature. Monks and Bruisers can be compared the same way. Just as Berserkers and Guardians. What you are asking is for them to rewrite the whole game and for no good reason at all."Berzerkers should not be tanks.."Says who?"Why would anyone choose a guardian when you can choose a berserker that does more DPS and tanks aswell(or close)"Because Guardians get more/better taunts and more/better defensive capabilities than we do.

02-20-2006, 10:58 PM	#18
uux Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 486	thark wrote: uux wrote: I've seen enough calls to nerf other classes in the Guardian forums. Please do not start bringing them here. Well, Why not, Im a berserker myself, and can see that everyone in my guild has stopped playing the guardian class that is supposed to be a key figure in many situations,and the reason they stopped playing is the berserker class, and the fact that the guardian is somewhat boring to play If they don't do something about this then they need to up the power of the Guardian class.. Bingo. They need to fix the guardian class or make it fun. Do not change the berserker class so it less desirable than a guardian, but instead make the guardian class more desirable. However, I doubt guardians are any less desirable now. If someone isn't having fun playing a guardian, then the class just wasn't for them. I really don't see a swarm of people on my server dropping their guards in favor of rolling a zerker instead. There might be issues with that class, but then again that just puts guardians in the same boat as everyone else. This also isn't the forum for guardian issues.

02-20-2006, 11:12 PM	#19
uux Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 486	infernus006 wrote:Wow I am so sick of this dumb arguement. Me too. "Why would anyone choose a guardian when you can choose a berserker that does more DPS and tanks aswell(or close)"Because Guardians get more/better taunts and more/better defensive capabilities than we do. I find it funny how often that is overlooked. I hope those that switch to berserkers from guardians find what they are looking for, but I think most are not going to be any happier after they find out all the rumors about the berserker class being so much uber just isn't true. (Despite what Guardians read in the Guardian forum, we do not really get self heals, group heals, evac, wards, self invis, lifetaps, awesome debuffs, super unresistable taunts, and ranger or mage DPS)

02-20-2006, 11:14 PM	#20
Ep General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 435	someone thought, "oh goody a MMO game and there's a berserker option, well judging from my vast knowledge of viking lore and my immense amount of time based playing D&D, a berserker can ONLY be how i envision it to be"your playing a game, not make your fantasy come true.really, others are correct, you sound like your better off re rolling a brusier, a leather only wearing fighter who can do dps... Message Edited by Epyx on 02-20-200601:15 PM __________________ --- Sir Auron

02-21-2006, 12:32 AM	#21
Buggrit Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 171	Guardians have always be "The raid tank" so to speak when i started playing about 3 months after Eq2s realise i couldn't decide what class i got told if i want to tank raids then guardian because thats all they really are raid tanks for group im better off picking a berserker or crusader /shrugand no guardians are not totally useless i know alot of guardians that still play just because 20-30 people on the board say that guards not (not even 1% of the guardians population) does not mean they suckIts the people like that, that just rolled a guard because they were uber unmatched tank and now they don't like it because there the same as everyone elsethe same people that switched to zerkers when we had are god mode period and the same people now playing bruisers/rangersa true zerker sticks it out no matter i may not be that high lvl but i like my berserkeralthough for the moment i've stuck him into retirement while i play my Assassin __________________

02-21-2006, 12:58 AM	#22
thark Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 105	Epyx wrote: someone thought, "oh goody a MMO game and there's a berserker option, well judging from my vast knowledge of viking lore and my immense amount of time based playing D&D, a berserker can ONLY be how i envision it to be"your playing a game, not make your fantasy come true.really, others are correct, you sound like your better off re rolling a brusier, a leather only wearing fighter who can do dps... Message Edited by Epyx on 02-20-200601:15 PM hehe, well..It seems you misunderstood me a bit based on my initial post, I like my zerker and don't wan't to trade it with some other class like a bruiser ..What I do like is get Guardians up to par, so that my guild will start to use them again...and if it boils down to loosing my shield and plate in the process I would gladly sacrifice it for a good cause..But if there is other things that could solve this problem i'm all ears Again..Do some of you honestly feel Guardians have that much better defensive capabilities than the berserkers? /Rigge

02-21-2006, 01:56 AM	#23
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	I will never understand how some people actually expect them to change the entire look, feel, role, and function of a class more than a year after it's creation in an MMO just beause it's not exactly the way they envisioned it when they picked up the game last week or because it's not exactly the same as it was in other games that they've played in the past. Especially when there is no need for such a change. There are already plenty of other DPS classes in this game to choose from as it is (8 of them to be exact) and there are only 4 plate tanks. And a lot of people still consider Brawlers to be more DPS than tank since they can only wear leather. They can still tank when they need to of course but they are not usually preferred for it and they do get more DPS than us, or at least they are supposed to.Also, as it has been pointed out many times by myself and others here, no one is stopping any Berserker in this game from wearing leather armor if they really want to. If that's the way you want to look then go for it. Unless you actually tank at all like you're supposed to then it's not going to really hurt you at all to sell your plate to the vendor and get yourself a nice set of leather gear. You can get leather armor that has just as good of stats on it as plate, it just doesn't have the same mitigation. But don't forget, the lighter your armor is the more avoidance you will have. That goes for all classes nowdays, not just Brawlers. Yeah, it would still be kind of dumb to sacrifice all that extra mitigation you could have if you wore plate like you are supposed to but then if all you care about is the looks of your character rather than it's actual abilities then it should be no big deal to you, right? Oh wait, the problem is you don't actually care if you can wear leather or not, you just don't want any Berserkers having the option to wear any kind of plate.The fact of the matter is that the whole idea that SOE has for this class is to be a mean main tank that can deal out a significant amount of damage at the same time that we are taking a good beating. Our class-defining skill, the Berserk proc, has a much greater chance to go off when the Berserker is taking hits rather than just dishing them out. So the more hits we take the more damage we are capable of doing. When tanking grouped mobs we can literally be in a state of Berserk the whole fight that way. And we have to be wearing plate to be able to do that. Leather-wearing fighters have to rely on high avoidance to stay alive while tanking rather than mitigation which allows you to take more hits and withstand the damage from it. And let's face it, Berserkers were just not meant to stand behind the mobs and hit them in the back like scouts, we are meant to be right in the mob's face cussing them out. This class is all about rage. How can you display your immense rage to an enemy and not expect to draw their attention? That would be rather insulting to me. Scouts use evasion tactics and deaggro spells to perform their sneaky attacks from behind without drawing attention. That's their job, not ours. And mages use powerful ranged attacks to hit the enemies from a disance. It is our job to keep the attention of the mobs away from our physically weaker companions. Once agian, accept it or reroll. Message Edited by infernus006 on 02-20-200604:07 PM

02-21-2006, 01:58 AM	#24
Khal Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 649	thark, does your guild raid? If so, what zones/mobs do you hit?

02-21-2006, 02:44 AM	#25
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	thark, "What I do like is get Guardians up to par, so that my guild will start to use them again...and if it boils down to loosing my shield and plate in the process I would gladly sacrifice it for a good cause." I find it hilarous that you come here to the Berserker forum to try and get support for the idea of nerfing our class just so the whiny Guardians can feel better about themselves. FYI they are not half as broken as they claim to be. What happened was before LU13 they were way too overpowered so they got nerfed down a little in the CU to be more in line with other tanking classes instead of being far superior to all the other fighters in the game like they were before. SOE said they never intended for Guardians to be that way in the first place and they needed to be fixed so they got fixed. Because of a bug with the way their buffs stacked before the change Guardians could make themselves literally invincible to taking any damage. Because of that bug no one wanted any other class to be their MT for anything, and that includes normal groups as well as raids. We would still get to tank sometimes but only if there wasn't any Guardians around. Now they got that taken away from them and they are crying just like little babies that had a lollipop snatched away and it makes me sick, especially when they try to take it out on us. Because lots of people still don't like Crusaders or Brawlers to be their MT even though they are supposed to be just as good at it as we are now. Berserkers are still the only real competitioin that Guardians have in the MT department right now, especially for raids, and they resent the hell out of us for it. And they act like they are the only ones that got any kind of nerfs in the CU as well, which isn't true at all. Before LU13, Berserkers were the aggro kings of the game. We couldn't take as many hits as Guardians but we sure as hell could keep aggro better than them and anyone else, including all the DPS classes. No one could steal aggro from us no matter what they did if we were paying any kind of attention at all. That got fixed in LU13 as well. Paladins can keep aggro better than us now with their Amends spell. Anyways, my whole main point is don't be listening to those whiny Guardians who try to make you feel bad for being a non-Guardian that actually as some chance at being just as good of a tank as them, because they are really just big selfish crybabies that want every class in the game to be totally gimped compared to them and they can't stand to play the game any other way with any kind of fairness or equality at all. I say be happy with what you got and quit trying to get your own class nerfed. That's just silly. We need to be standing up for ourselves around here and not be letting people of other classes dictate what we should and should not be able to do in this game. Guardians are just going to have to suck it up and learn to accept the fact that they aren't the be all and end all of tanking in this game any longer and learn to deal with some competition just like all the other classes in this game are forced to do. Message Edited by infernus006 on 02-20-200604:59 PM

02-21-2006, 02:49 AM	#26
BraveSma Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 50	Berserkers and Guardians are both good tanks. Guardians are the better raid/main tanks, as their defensive buffs and almost completely defensive-oriented ability set enables them to absorb alot of damage and protect their group//raidmates. Berserkers have better hate management because a) their taunts are better and b) they do more damage, however, their offensive buffs (obviously) dont have the defensive impact of a Guardian's. The fact that they can wear vanguard doesn't change the fact that they are very offense-based. With all their buffs up and with berserker state procced, they can attack many times as fast and do loads of damage. They're good off tanks. So... they're still good damage dealers, they're still "REAL berserkers". And They don't make Guardians obsolete. If you don't like the vanguard, don't wear it. No one is forcing you to. Message Edited by BraveSmart on 02-20-200601:50 PM __________________ --- Cryostorm Ragemuffin, Level 45 Ratonga Berserker of Qeynos, Lavastorm(Now Nektulos) The Fury Council

02-21-2006, 04:43 AM	#27
thark Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 105	Khalad wrote: thark, does your guild raid? If so, what zones/mobs do you hit? Well, last time we raided we took Lookjaw and Barakah and the SilverDragon in Majdul

02-21-2006, 05:26 AM	#28
Khal Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 649	If you do zones like courts, fighting mobs like sunchild and blackqueen will show you the differences between guardian and berserker, contested barakah in POF, djinn master, pedistal of sky

02-21-2006, 06:06 AM	#29
terrified kill General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 46	he's prolly thinking of eq1 as there berserkers wore chain and was a dps class that only had the ability to wield 2h weapons. Khalad wrote: You picked the wrong class, blame yourself, not sony. Ignore the names of the classes sony uses, they are just an offensive warrior and defensive warrior named berserker and guardian. Both tank well, guardian better. Both myself and our Guardian tank alot. Can he tank things that I can't? No. Does he have an easyer time on some mobs? Ya sometimes, he gets a few more defensive abilities. Thinking they are gonna radically change the berserker is nuts. Want to be DPS play a scout.

02-21-2006, 06:07 AM	#30
Bremer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,902	Khalad schrieb: If you do zones like courts, fighting mobs like sunchild and blackqueen will show you the differences between guardian and berserker, contested barakah in POF, djinn master, pedistal of sky I allready (tried to) tank blackqueen, because our guardian would die in seconds after his tower of stone was used up. I stood a lot better than him, only problem was the queen nuking for up to 9k heat dmg. Same with sunchild which also deals heat damage. It really sucks that most high end raid mobs do heat damage so that guardians are automatically the better (and in this case only) choice.