How do you calculate agro?

[Skorpeo1]

Im just trying to do some calculations, looking at parses etc. and was wondering if 1agro point = 1 damage point. 

 

ie.  If a tank does 20k damage + 10k points of agro via taunt + 20k via agro transfer would he have 50k worth of agro?

 

 

[Ri]

They've never said for that reason.  They don't want people parsing threat.  Leaves some kind of mystery I guess. . .

[Kokus]

I've been playing for the last few months with the thought that 3 points of damage = 1 aggro.  I'm not saying it's right, but it seems to make sense for me in certain situations.

[Mordock of the Highwynd]

On one of the fighter boards, a guy reported his controlled experiments a long time ago.  His experiments were carefully done.  If I remember, he determined that

1 hate agro = 1 damage = 1 heal

I'll try to find that.

[Mordock of the Highwynd]

Here is that link, along with another.

Excellent work by that guy.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=13977#M13977

 

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=95767&query.id=110215#M95767

 

Message Edited by Mordock of the Highwynd on 03-31-200612:14 PM

[Demonskill]

that guy did a very nice job, if 1 dmg = 1 hate, our elude is close to useless, since our mark line do 4k in a proc, etc etc. There are so much variation, but yes, it's a great start of the source

[HellRaiserXX]

A hate degen doesn't have to remove all your hate.  Hate is lvls: If the tank in is holding aggro they are in level 1, but if say an assassin accumulates more hate than the tank they move up to level 1 and the tank moves down to level 2, generally Elude is enough to drop you back down under what the tank is at.

[Hadanelith]

 

I'm pretty sure I can safely say that if an Assassin isn't grouped with either a Troubador or a tank that can dissipate hate (not PLD, they Absorb it), that you're pretty much going to die at some point in the battle if you absolutely balls-out DPS.

 

I say this with some justification: Our Tank had both COE and DRG in his group tonight when we took on the Guardian of Leadership for our 2nd successful run (first was several weeks ago). Meanwhile, I had Grandmaster de-aggro poison going (700-1200 deaggro per proc). Using ADP3 Elude and Surveillance at every opportunity, including leaving time for both to refresh between my "main burn" (Concealment combo) and Decapitate use... I still pulled aggro from the Guardian of Leadership and got myself killed.

 

The mob was at 23% life when I used Decap. My Combo started at about 38%, and ended at about 27%.

 

Our tank has nearly all, if not all, his taunts at MST, and the remaining at ADP3. Did everything I could to control aggro except use my own hate transfer; my killing someone with aggro transfer is no better than dying myself.

 

I think the only people better at getting Hate than Assassins, are Wizards who use Ice Nova every 45 seconds on the dot, and Fusion at the start of an AE battle =p

 

-Hadanelith Raswrolski, 70 Assassin of Kithicor

[blurryfast]

using a MA during raidsusing hate transferall I know is when MT goes down, guess who is next?hehe

[Dragonsviperz]

Well I don't know who to parse aggro but I wish I did or had like an aggro meter or something. And if you are grabbing aggro with master deaggro or adept3 and your tank is taunting like you said, then your tank sucks or you need to learn how to control aggro, or the mob had a mem wipe. But I'll try some experimenting for myself. I do think it could be 1dmg = 1hate point...but I'm leaning towards 1dmg = 2hate. Very good question though, and I like what that guardian did.

[Hadanelith]

 

I can speak only for myself in this matter:

I have Elude and Surveillance both ADP3 (no luck on Master of either yet). I have Concealment ADP3, and I believe its quality affects the hate reduction during its usage. And, I've been making it a point to carry around Grandmaster's Ignorant Bliss.

Between using Elude and Surveillance at every chance possible, having GMIB procs, and using Concealment anytime I plan to do 2 or more Stealth CA's w/o throwing either Elude or Surveillence somewhere inbetween them... I THINK that I have aggro down as tight as I can on my end.

In my humble opinion, if a GRD is getting aggro from BOTH a Dirge and Coercer at the same time... whether or not I'm with a Troubador, doing what I am to control my own aggro, I should never ever ever pull aggro unless I either Decap right off the bat, the tank goes down... or the mob has a memwipe. And to all my knowledge, the Guardian of Leadership does not have a memwipe; he wasn't even at a "convential" health level when he turned aggro on me. (By this I mean, in comparison to something like the Black Queen's deathtouch @ 50%-ish health).

And of course, our Tank gives the typical response when I ask [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is going on: "Well my taunts only refresh so fast you know." At least when he tells me his Healers aren't clearing Stifle fast enough, there's some level of credibility... but seriously... when your aggro is nearly double its base...

*rolls eyes*

-Hadanelith Raswrolski, 70 Assassin of Kithicor

[Dragonsviperz]

*sigh* teach your guard how to play the game..lol..taunts may take time to refresh, doesn't mean he can't try to dps the mob as best he can either...

[blurryfast]

try throwing murderous design on a healer get a paladin in group to use amends on youuse the hate reducing poisonsget the cowl of the villain (700 reduction on proc)above all parse yourself and learn where you are stealingI don't bust off the big #s some others do, but I don't like dying, so I'm happy where I'm atlet the warlocks die is my theory  hehe

[Hadanelith]

 

Blurry,

 

* I use deaggro poison, at Grandmaster level.

* If a Paladin uses Amends on me, he dies. We've been there, I know.

* I'm usually grouped with a Warding healer to dodge AE's; they would hopefully not get aggro even with my transfer, but I don't like risking the death of a healer.

* Read the description on the Cowl of the Villain carefully - it procs when YOU, the wearer, get hit.

 

This last point I haven't personally tested since I have a Nemesis Hood (far better stats) and no real interest in the Cowl UNLESS it works contrary to my belief. But, if you read the description of the item carefully, it's phrased to say that it procs when YOU get hit. Our Brigand has his "de-aggro" hat, and he steals aggro anyway as well; this is practical data if not particularly scientific.

 

I know exactly when I steal aggro without parsing: Almost every single battle, when the MAIN TANK or MAIN ASSIST call "Full Burn," I die 5 seconds later. Yes, I do de-aggros first. Yes, I use Concealment to decrease the aggro I'm getting. Yes, I use the above mentioned Grandmaster Ignorant Bliss. Depending on how quickly I get off my stealth attacks, sometimes I use Decap while Concealment is still active... but if it ISNT, then I wait til at LEAST 1 of my 2 de-agg's has refreshed, and I use it before using Decap.

 

There is nothing more that I can do for myself to control aggro unless I'm wrong about the way the Cowl works. Nobody else in any thread I've posted this same problem has mentioned the Cowl, and I made no indication that I'm using one... so, I am assuming that the Cowl functions in the matter I've interpreted it.

 

(Otherwise, I'd have a lot of Assassins going "GET YOUR COWL U NOOB OMG!!" and that hasn't happened *grin*)

 

 

-Hadanelith Raswrolski, 70 Assassin of Kithicor

[Dragonsviperz]

Don't know how you guys die...I think it may be because you guys might not spread out the bigger hits over a longer fight...use concealment every 1min with the other 1mins and less BS's...then spam Elude/Surveillance skills. I've saved Decap for the end 90% of the time on named mobs that are hard. When the tank or whoever says burn it now, I still put on every attack thats up at that moment even Thermal Shocker ftw and have trouble trying to turn the mob(which I've tried) and still come out with good numbers from the parser.

[blurryfast]

I personally don't have the cowl of the villain either, just throwing out an optionour paladin never has a prob w/ amends and dying, but hey whole different problemI'd luv to know the answer to how aggro works,  damage vs. proximity vs taunts and all thatI'd hope none of us are using the big hits that early, that truly would be newb, but if you are, then you're getting a deserved reward hehereading this makes me think I should use conceal more than I do, tend to use masked attack to reach stealthhope no one took my post as an "i'm right" 'cause I'm constatnly trying to get better and learn, you all help some lol

[Dragonsviperz]

Best combo...my friend uses it too, but I'm better then him *cough* Skratch *cough* Concealment + Evis + Jugular + Cloaked + Pblade or Slaughter Assault, I use every min after my brig says the mob is debuffed, its awesome dmg plus good aggro control...just revealed my awesome dps secret...

[Hadanelith]

Pfft. I do pretty much the exact same thing Dragon, only I change the order up a bit b/c I use Slaughter while Exacting is going. So Ha-ha to you!

I pretty much use Concealment whenever possible w/ the 1-min moves... and I retain BOTH Decap and KB til the Burn call. On a good crit, KB can hit as hard as a "bad" Decapitate so... there's good reason in that. Especially when I have Master of both &gt

Honestly, the only time I really have problems with aggro is at that critical moment that there should NEVER be aggro problems: the Burn Call. 85% of the time, if not more, I will pull aggro after The Burn Call... and The Burn Call isn't even supposed to be made unless the tanks' basically just made sure that nothing short of a nuklear holocaust will pull aggro from him.

I just plain don't understand it at all.

-Hadanelith Raswrolski, 70 Assassin of Kithicor

 

EDITED PS:

Blurry - No, I wasn't taking it as a "you're right" and responding as a "you're wrong," hehe. MOST DPS Scouts misunderstand the way the Cowl of the Villain (or their own hate-redux class-hat) works. The way the Effect is stated, it can be loosely interpreted as either a Reactive (when YOU get hit), or a Proc (when YOU hit SOMETHING).

The proof that it's a Reactive comes in the way it's phrased. Look at a pair of Imbued Leggings, of any tier... or an Imbued Shield, of any tier. The phraseology used on the Cowl is precisly the same as these other items with Reactive Effects.

If I were to try and explain the way I first realized it was a Reactive (and thus decided I didn't want the P.O.S.) it'd probably only confuse people. Basically, IF it were indeed a proc... then they phrased it in the worst way possible. In order to infer that it's a Proc, rather than a Reactive, you have to follow some fairly fuzzy cyclical logic based on the Effect Text.

The long and short of it however, is that De-Aggros are cast ON THE MOB as a rule, from the player. If you try to interperet the Cowl's effect as a Proc, what's happening is this: The "de-aggro" is being cast on YOU, which then lowers your hate with the targetted MOB. That doesn't really make any sense; it'd be as if the MOB cast a spell on you that, in turn, made him hate you less. That's the best explanation I can provide for deciphering that item.

And as an additional footnote, its stats are actually worse than Hoo'Loh's cowl when you get down to it. That's an entirely different dicussion though; if you have Hoo'Lohs, unequip it to see how much Power and HP you actually lose. Do the math for the Stamina, and Hoo'Loh's gives more HP and Power, better skill mods, and about the same stats everywhere else.

Message Edited by Hadanelith on 04-22-2006 03:40 AM

Message Edited by Hadanelith on 04-22-2006 03:40 AM

[Dragonsviperz]

I use Cowl during raids when I already have capped str/agi and other stats, I just use incase I ever pull aggro, and maybe a slight chance when I get hit it will proc...but haven't noticed yet if it has done anything to help with the turning of the mob.