Is our class really that broken or are the majority of Coercers just bad players?

RatWithGun · 03-10-2006, 10:03 AM

The first point i would like to make is the coercer is a very well designed and powerful single group class, we have a vast number of effective and helpful spells which allow groups to exp fast and to make named encounters alot easier.

Now onto raids, now SoE must make Raid encounters tough enough so they are not easily beaten and become trival and open to farming, this would also make the game easy to finish and would have hordes of players quitting through boredom unless SoE release an expansion every 2 months.

Unfortunately if SoE allowed all our very effective single group spells usable on Epics then raids would be instantly trival as i will explain below.

Stifle - Now if we are allowed to stifle raid encounters then they would be effectively pointless having spells so SoE would be stuck in having pure melee mobs, so out goes any tactics in dealing with AE's or Magical Attacks or even the need for resists, its just meatshield + heal spam

Stuns - If raid encounters are stunable with our numerious stuns then add that to the above point a group of chanters could keep a raid encounter almost permenatly stunned so now the encounter isnt much of a melee challenge

Mezz - Having problems? too many healers down? lost your maintank? Mezz the encounter and get everyone up and rebuffed and lets continue = encounter trival

So we see that the 3 main abilties of a Coercer would unbalance a raid so we come to the issue which drives nearly every coercer "what can we do on a raid then?"

Reactive *Melee* Damage Spell

x2 Reactive *Spell* Damage Spell

Agi/Int Buff

Power/Magic/Divine/Mental Buff

Auto Attack DPS Buff (effects ranged attacks now also)

Debuff vs all Arcane Resists

Hate Gain Buff

x2 Mana Regen

x2 Minor Nukes (Ego Torrent at Master 1 is 1k+ damage with a resonable recast)

x1 Large Nuke (Sonic boom can still be used as a 2k+ nuke if the encounter is not a ranged fight)

Mezz (Yes some encounters have mezzable adds which can inflict alot of damage)

x2 Minor DoT's (One which allows the Coercer to regain power)

Manacloak

Channel

Memwipe

+% to Group Critical Heal chance (AP)

-% Hate Gain to non fighters in group (AP)

For such a useless class with nothing to bring to a raid thats a pretty long list, im not saying that the Enchanter is perfect far from it, i would personally like to see large increases to our raid useable buffs and debuffs and maybe a few new types of buffs/debuffs with the expense of some of our single group spell lines like our power drains since that is rather useless.

In my opinon all this negative about our class makes people believe all the rubbish that Coercers are merely ManaBatteries and so we bring our own downfall by making people think were useless, if we were really that useless why do i see nearly every high level raiding guild using or trying to recruit our rare class.

We need tweaking yes but were not broken.

zit · 03-10-2006, 01:03 PM

RatWithGun wrote:
....
Unfortunately if SoE allowed all our very effective single group spells usable on Epics then raids would be instantly trival as i will explain below.

Stifle - Now if we are allowed to stifle raid encounters then they would be effectively pointless having spells so SoE would be stuck in having pure melee mobs, so out goes any tactics in dealing with AE's or Magical Attacks or even the need for resists, its just meatshield + heal spam

Stuns - If raid encounters are stunable with our numerious stuns then add that to the above point a group of chanters could keep a raid encounter almost permenatly stunned so now the encounter isnt much of a melee challenge

Mezz - Having problems? too many healers down? lost your maintank? Mezz the encounter and get everyone up and rebuffed and lets continue = encounter trival

So we see that the 3 main abilties of a Coercer would unbalance a raid so we come to the issue which drives nearly every coercer "what can we do on a raid then?"

....

this only holds true with the supposition that there is only a All-or Nothing-Option.

we are not asking for being able to fully control epics, we are asking for our spells to not be fully unuseable.

its the job of the Devs to be creative and implement and alter spell effects so they wont trivialize raids.

it was the original idea with LU13 that some of our stuns and stifles would be able to affect epics just with a reduced effectivenss. apparently they havent been able to code it correctly and instead of fixing it they just disabled those spells on epics entirely again. this is a cheap and lazy solution and not really acceptable.

Astaroth_PoD · 03-10-2006, 02:16 PM

Up untill yesterday I was reasonably content with my class (66 enchanter)... Then I went to Halls of Fate.Bring a rag doll instead, it'll do the group more good! Mez doesn't work, stuns dont work. And you don't bring a coercer just for the power regen.

Message Edited by Astaroth_PoD on 03-10-200610:17 AM

RatWithGun · 03-10-2006, 02:54 PM

Your doing something seriously wrong then, my mezz works fine on all of the mobs in HoF and also my stuns, cleared the entire zone with no deaths simply because we had CC.

Olondy · 03-10-2006, 06:47 PM

Coercers seem a strong class to me as well and I agree.However, it is easy enough for SOE to make raid mobs have "windows" where they are open to stunz, or mez, or stifle. This makes it much more interesting than just a blanket works/does not work.City of Heroes did this as a solution for controllers who were feeling useless against epic mobs. After the change, if you stacked enough stuns/stifles whatever they could get through, though not for terribly long. This made a good controller able to heavily cut down the damage/mobility of an epic mob, but in no way trivialized the encounter.EQ2 might work for example: An average raid mob might have 30seconds out of every minute where if you stack enough stuns/stifle they could get through for a time. A tough raid mob might have the "vulnerable to stun" window reduced to 15sec out of a minute. Also, make this window random, and give subtle or no hints that it is there, so it will take alot of coercer skill/intuition to use it effectively.100% immunity is just a cheap cop out till they find the time to make it more nuanced and interesting like City of Heroes did.

Dr_Cyr · 03-10-2006, 08:04 PM

Raid utility is the major gripe. You cite mostly grouping stuff. Few have problems there. The main ones are recited below.There are some glaring errors with the class implementation, like ManaFlow AA being the way it is with a power requirement of below 10%, and the bad choices given for our M2 at 64, the 65 level "special" spell thats really not very special at all (I htink they made an error in rage, it shoudl be either longer duration or longer range). Add to that some heroic content has become immune to mez. And the hats are farking UGLY.But you paint a bit of a rosy picture: really there is no need for mez much anywhere anymore (Vaults being the exception) because its faster and more relible to burn them down with AE stuff. The game mechanics favor that solution. And many of the scenarios that you paint are exceptions, not the rule for high level grouped play; there are other more commonly used ways around them. Likewise nearly every one of those spells and abilities is covered well enough by another class that has additional desired utility that we do not. Lets take Dirges for example: can power buff the same as our baseline maintained regen, and they have better MT buffs, can add their own damage, have stuns and charms, and can rez in combat and evac as well (neither of which we can do). On top of that dirges are key for popping the right HO - they (scouts) are required for really leveraging HOs properly, unlike the coercer hat contributes none of these things. Also given the influx in Flowing Thought items, power regen past the baseline that sirge/troub cna provide, its not that big a deal anymore. So for a group where Minds Eye is NOT that much of a big add, dirges are simply better to have around than coercers. Dirges truly are a utility class. We coercers are not, due to design flaws (half our spells offset the other half, reactives vs stuns/mezzes, and what mage want to get hit?), and some odd spell choices made by the developers (Master 2 choices at 64, the aforemetioned messed up level 65 spell, the useless entry AA, etc).Bottom line is: If coercers really were a superior, or even a sufficient answer to the challenges presented by this game and the scenrious the designers have set up, there'd be more demand for us. Then you woudl ahve more coercers instead of the handful that exist at higher levels. There will always be a "least played" class, but the numbers are so dramatically different that the spread in the Mage classes shows there is something broken. The least played class in the game 60+ is coercer. No denying that. Barely more than 400 between ALL servers total (per eq2 census post Ive seen), and does not differentiate retired 60's from botted 60's from ones actually being played as a main, so the actual numbers are probably smaller for "real" active coercers. The number of coercers could be tripled and just barely surpass the next lowest non-chanter class, the Warlock, even as out of favor as they are on raids due to AE instead of single target. And it not just Coercers: add the total number of coercers and illusionists, and you STILL do not have more than the next lowest mage class, Warlocks. There are almost 5 times as many Wizard, about 3 times as many Conjurors and Necromancers. And we lost our only post 60 illusionist to DDO last week, playing that until Vanguard comes out, due to boredom wiht the class and the lack of any active or vital role in most of the end-game. Face it, theres simply no "there" there for chanters in general in the end game, and for Coercers in particular- being a bot is about all you are needed for. I knwo because my coercer is slowly but surely truning into a alt-bot while I play a new main that is much more suited to the game the way it is now.You cannot escape the numbers, the numbers do not lie.Those are the real issues other than raid related stuff.And once you hit 70, raid related stuff is all there is.

Message Edited by Dr_Cyrus on 03-10-200605:39 PM

Flipmode · 03-10-2006, 08:40 PM

Well designed class?!?! Lets see...

Reactive based damage...and stuns out the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...

How much damage will our reactives do when the mob is stunned?

Ricon · 03-10-2006, 09:19 PM

7 of your listed spells are useable against an Epic mob, although I doubtanyone would want to use Memwipe much on a raid SMILEY

I think the key to making Coercers more active in a raid is to lower theresistance rate against our Debuffs, specifically the resistance ratevs our Resistance debuff spell/s.This lets us have more of a chance to effect the Epic with our otherspells, such as Reactives and Nukes etc.At present, the resist rate is such that we effectively become manabatterys/buff bots because most of the rest of the things we can do to themob get resisted and resisted and resisted, including the very spells werely on to reduce the target's resistance to our stuff in the first place.I dont think bringing back stuns or stifles will happen, but maybe a slighttweak to Epic resistance to our debuffs will help keep Coercers aroundfor raids as interested participants, not bored alts?

Mandelbro · 03-10-2006, 10:52 PM

Flipmode wrote:
Well designed class?!?! Lets see...
Reactive based damage...and stuns out the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...
How much damage will our reactives do when the mob is stunned?

You're assuming that we should be using ALL our spells ALL the time. I disagree. I see this as choice. For me, more choice = more fun = well designed. Choice is the reason I'm not playing a Wizard. I don't want to play a one dimensional class.If my group has other classes that do more damage, then I'll let them do damage and cut down on the incoming damage from the mob, thereby increasing the efficiency of our group. If we are heavy on healers, then I'll add my reactive damage to the mix and not stun.I don't think that we're well designed when it comes to raid content, but I'm only addressing your example here.

RatWithGun · 03-10-2006, 10:55 PM

A lot of DoF raid mobs had a memwipe on the MT, A coercer casting Memwipe soon as the mob does in a well controled raid allows the MT to regain instant aggro

Ricon · 03-10-2006, 11:45 PM

Those DoF raids are very situational though, in general peeps dont wantMemwipe used on raids as a badly timed one would see mass deaths resultand a lot of grief for the coercer.Besides which it would be used once, maybe twice, tops on the few RaidEpics that would see it used at all, afterwards we are left standing aroundwatching 'resist' msgs spam like usual SMILEY

I'm looking at things we can do when battling any Epic mob in general.Hence the suggested reduction in resistance rates against our resitance debuff,it helps us land our other spells a bit more without adding in things that trivialisethe Epic mob again?If our spells would stick on Epics a bit more perhaps the image of manabattery and buff bot would fade from the perception held by many Coercers?

Aranieq · 03-11-2006, 12:40 AM

If our stun/stiffle/root/mezz spells were reduced to even 50% the full time as for heroics and singles then we would be far more efective on raids and not become overpowering. we would not be able to chain stun since our refresh times would not change just teh effective durration of our stuns..

To me its really our stuns that need to become effective.. can argue charm and mezz but our bread and butter as to mitigation ability are our stuns.. We don't need more dps ability to be effective we need more ability to controll.. and in an epic capacity the only way i see that is to allow us stun ability.

Tanatus · 03-11-2006, 01:15 AM

Bad look on it this way

Wards and Reactives as well as Stackable Regeneration trivilize encounter in LARGER degree then stuns, stifle could possibly do even in our dreams. There is NO DIFFERENCE between chain warding group and chain stuning mob per se. Lol tell me about mez ... but lets follow your logic shall we? MT down, Healers down ... well [Removed for Content] get second tank in and more healers in raid ..... totaly trivilized encounter no?

Coercer IF our primary skills would work could bring some diversity to current ZERGGGGGGG tactic of killing every single encounter in game. Let me put this blant - as long as you have a lot healers and good geared tank .... you good to go. Jousting AoE and using multiple MT on mobs with agro switch is just a gravy not a tactic ...

Dont make me laugh about our DPS on raid - we suppose to do same DPS as conjurer or necro (with tank pet) or same DPS as bruiser (currently those classes usually in top 6 DPS on raid). Magus M2 on fully debuffed mob (after it stopped do multiple proc on AE) have physical limit around 150DPS, our nukes AND dots could add more like 150-200DPS extra we ending up with 350 susteined DPS which IS below DPS of priests.... This easy to fix - just allow us charm within raid instances good pet easy can bring 500-600DPS susteined on the table placing us on our rightfull place on top of food chain. I dont know about you but then I made coercer I had in mind be ABSOLUTE champion of DPS (situantional albeit) via charmed pet

So I guess what I wanted to say - [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] the buffs, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] the CC - I did not made coercer to do that lol if I want that I'd made illusionist - I want DPS, DPS and a little more DPS

Mandelbro · 03-11-2006, 03:54 AM

Charm in a raid instance might be nice, but due to the way that encounters were locked when you charmed a mob, and the encounter wouldn't give up its loot until your charmed pet died, this is a little dicey. Granted, now your charmed mob no longer counts towards the encounter limit, so this may have been fixed, however I'm not willing to jeopordize bugging the drop from a raid just because I want a chance at some DPS.Letting our stuns/stifles work for 50% of the duration is moot when you consider the fact that if that happens, guilds will recruit Coercers and *insert every class that can stun/stifle* and pack the raid with enough of those classes to chain stun/stifle the raid mob, thereby trivializing. It would be history repeating itself, as all of that has happened already in EQ2's lifetime.Instead of reducing the duration, make it so that we can stun/stifle a raid mob, but then make that mob immune to the effect for x amount of time. They've done it in PvP, it would give us something very useful to do on a raid, and it would make chain stunning/stifling impossible.Granted, some raid mobs are scripted for certain events and abilities to go off at certain times, so there may have to be allowances.Looking at history again, however, shows us that hope for such changes remains only hope. I want to add that I will continue to hope.

Gammelt · 03-11-2006, 04:22 AM

Well I was intrigued with the title of this thread and then the OP missed stated the part that intrigued me.

I played an Enchanter for 6 years in EQ1 and a Coercer from day one in EQ2. I have never claimed, nor will you ever hear me claim that I am a great Enchanter/Coercer. There are plenty of you people out there that have more knowledge and apply that knowledge at a level far greater than I do. That being said, I am a good Coercer and try my best to play the class well.

Re: Is our class really that broken or are the majority of Coercers just bad players?

As I said in another post today, Anyone can play any class in this game. There is a world of difference between playing a class and being a skilled player of that class. It is those players that will not learn how to play a class that complain the loudest. They want everything handed to them on a silver platter - rather than learning how to play a class to it greatest potential. That does not mean Coercers do not have problems, but those of us that have stuck it out are the ones that realize the unique characteristics of our class and enjoy them.

Of all of the classes I think that playing an Enchanter/Coercer/Illusionist is one of the most challenging classes to play well. And I emphasize the PLAYING WELL part. If you want a real challenge, then become a master at playing an Enchanter class.

Just an Old man's Mumblings on our class.

Message Edited by Gammelt on 03-10-200603:23 PM

Anisha · 03-11-2006, 05:09 AM

With the recent nerfing or fixing of procs, our DPS is laughable, a meleeing inq can do more dps then us. Spell whip used to be our saving grace in terms of DPS, it didnt work on all mobs, it wasnt perfect and sometime if you over did it you pulled agro. BUT atleast we werent last in the dps food chain.

You know, i always expected a fix to this spell, i new the dmg output was based on a bugg. But i also expected to get somethign in return for loosing it. guess i was wrong.

Argan · 03-11-2006, 10:23 AM

Astaroth_PoD wrote:
Up untill yesterday I was reasonably content with my class (66 enchanter)... Then I went to Halls of Fate.Bring a rag doll instead, it'll do the group more good! Mez doesn't work, stuns dont work. And you don't bring a coercer just for the power regen.
Message Edited by Astaroth_PoD on 03-10-200610:17 AM

You gota be a complete noob to go in there as a coercer and NOT CHARM THE MOBS .... Seriously those mobs you cant mez/stun/stiffle can be charmed, and they are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]en dps monsters when they are charmed. Can finish the instance in 1hr np with one. Only problem is if it breaks, I live around 50% of the time, with a healer that knows what is what. People beg me to come clear halls cause its so quick with me around. And if you dont like charming the bigger mobs, charm a destroyer they work as good and you live 90% of the time.

Argan · 03-11-2006, 10:28 AM

Anisha wrote:
With the recent nerfing or fixing of procs, our DPS is laughable, a meleeing inq can do more dps then us. Spell whip used to be our saving grace in terms of DPS, it didnt work on all mobs, it wasnt perfect and sometime if you over did it you pulled agro. BUT atleast we werent last in the dps food chain.

You know, i always expected a fix to this spell, i new the dmg output was based on a bugg. But i also expected to get somethign in return for loosing it. guess i was wrong.

We're not a dps class, if you wanna dps charm something. Although most every raid encounter is not gona be charmed sadly. I can still crank out 400-500 dps in a raid, If i'm paying attention and not watching tv. If you really wanna be dps go int line and get crits, since agility is kinda stupid if you ask me, quick cast [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that has 1 sec casting time, not really noticeable upgrade.

Flipmode · 03-11-2006, 10:36 AM

Mandelbrodt wrote:
Flipmode wrote:
Well designed class?!?! Lets see...
Reactive based damage...and stuns out the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...
How much damage will our reactives do when the mob is stunned?
You're assuming that we should be using ALL our spells ALL the time. I disagree. I see this as choice. For me, more choice = more fun = well designed. Choice is the reason I'm not playing a Wizard. I don't want to play a one dimensional class.If my group has other classes that do more damage, then I'll let them do damage and cut down on the incoming damage from the mob, thereby increasing the efficiency of our group. If we are heavy on healers, then I'll add my reactive damage to the mix and not stun.I don't think that we're well designed when it comes to raid content, but I'm only addressing your example here.

Even if we dont use our stuns, stifles, or interrupts...every class in the game has em. So they will be lowering your dps if you choose to go dps mode. Again, the reacive based damage is poor class design. No need to be a fanboy about it. If you can only use one mode of your spell at any one given time...gratz you just became "one dimensional".

Aranieq · 03-11-2006, 09:05 PM

I wouldnt change my reactive damage for a full blown nuke by any means. I wouldnt give up my uber stun capabilities either. I am no fanboi and neither is Mandelbrolt. We are not a straight forward class.. people need to get that. We SHOULD be hard to play. If I wanted to play an easy class my scout would be 65 and coercer would be the passtime. I DON'T want them to make Coercers easy to play. If it's the only class in the game that is so difficult that there are only 13 of us on any server great as long as you give me my reward for being good at it.

Reactive damage is far more complicated to manage than a straight DD.. knowing when is the right time to stun and when is the right time to be DPS and right time to play CC... thats whats makes you a good coercer. We need more raid capability but as a class we can be badass if we KNOW what we are doing. I know I'm a good player and I know there are plenty others out there even better. If I wanted straight forward teir 1 DPS I'd play a ranger/sorcereer ect.. if I wanted to be an indespensible utility class I'd play a healer.. If I wanted easy point and slash I'd play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tank. I WANT my class to be so difficult that the average whiny joe can't do it. That they sit on the side lines and say sour grapes comments, while the rest of the "needed" classes go woah I can't believe we just did that, and i secretly know it's because I was there.

Now as for raids I rarely get that feeling.. the one were I know they NEEDED me over any other class there. Thats what I want for my class. It doesn't have to be over powering it just needs to be that well, "we need another coercer to do this" or "I'd feel heck of a lot more comfortable with another Coercer", just like they do for templars and furies and guardians... SK sorcerers.. ect everyone has something they they bring that no one else does as good as them. We are not the only class who gets gimped by epic invulnerability to stuns/stiffles/roots/ and mez/charms... but those are what we do best unlike any other class. all other classes have smaller versions of theese abilities or on a very scaled back quality/duration, they can't use theirs either.. but they have far more to fall back on since controll is not their primary use. Now if I can't have controll ability for a mob on a raid YES I want more reactive power. I want more DPS but not in the form of a nuke or uber DoT I want it to be tricky and complicated enough that all the bored healers,scouts whatever, out there decide to roll a coercer just to push the nuke in between pages of their favorite "raidtime book". Keep us difficult and frustrating but give us our reward for getting here.

Tanatus · 03-11-2006, 10:40 PM

Ppl you missing the point .... there is NO DIFFERENCE between CHAIN HEALING/WARDING and CHAIN STUNING thus there is no problem with allow coercers stun the mobs and shamans warding tanks

I want to repeat it again and again Coercer IS NOT untility class - NEVER MEANT TO BE that way.... Coercer is a MAGE class and as such it IS DPS class. If I want to make utility class I'd make SCOUT not MAGE

Verdemy · 03-11-2006, 11:49 PM

Tanatus wrote:
Ppl you missing the point .... there is NO DIFFERENCE between CHAIN HEALING/WARDING and CHAIN STUNING thus there is no problem with allow coercers stun the mobs and shamans warding tanks
I want to repeat it again and again Coercer IS NOT untility class - NEVER MEANT TO BE that way.... Coercer is a MAGE class and as such it IS DPS class. If I want to make utility class I'd make SCOUT not MAGE

Tanatus,you know much more then me, not doubting that..but i have read you argue this point ad nauseum..that coercer is dps because is mage. Well, that's your opinion , and you're entitled to it..but over the past 1 1/2 years it has been repeated many times over that coercer's role is subtle, diverse and well, challenging to do well. Asking for significant dps in addition to the many ways we affect group encounters would overpower us and won't happen. I'm satisfied, mostly, with the current group and individual combat dynamics and think if they'd tweak our ability to participate in epic encounters in some way we'd be good to go.I also would like to agree with the poster who stated that coercer's are supposed to be challenging, and thus even when successfully designed won't be a super popular class...what has lacked at times has been rewarding perseverence and skill.

Anachronomicon · 03-12-2006, 12:03 AM

The idea of the window of opportunity for stuns/stifle is a good one. My idea was that if they ever really are concerned about raid usefulness of the enchanter classes they let us- and only us- use our stuns at a very limited rate. Shield bashes, knockdown punches, stunning shots, and secondary stun effects on nukes should still not effect epics. But a class that is so defined by its ability to control creatures should have a chance to do just a little bit of it on a raid. If all the stuns were set to 1/4 of their effectiveness you'd be looking at a maximum of a 3 second stun at any time. If you think that's too powerful make it even less... but make it something. Just that little extra bit could be a key part that would have enchanters everywhere keeping their heads up during a raid for that opportunity to do ANYTHING worthwhile. I think you'd be surprised how little of a difference it would make in terms of trivialization, but how much of a difference it would make in class satisfaction.

Senelin Venelitus

67 Froglok Coercer - EverGrobb

Aranieq · 03-12-2006, 01:44 AM

even if particular stunn line would be accepted then that would be something for example our psychic wail or our primary stun/power drain (10s)

if we even had 1 of those as effective then it would not lead to chain stunning in anymore of a ability than chain runing does.

Yes chain healing is different than chain stunning I don't understand how you can't see the difference ther.

chain healeing allows for mob ability and varation as well as the need for agro controll of the raid.. with chain stunning the mob does nothing except sit there and slowly wait to die.. there is no need for agro buffs or healing or anything except dps... how do you not see that difference?

Nuhus · 03-12-2006, 02:01 AM

Aranieq wrote:
I wouldnt change my reactive damage for a full blown nuke by any means. I wouldnt give up my uber stun capabilities either. I am no fanboi and neither is Mandelbrolt. We are not a straight forward class.. people need to get that. We SHOULD be hard to play. If I wanted to play an easy class my scout would be 65 and coercer would be the passtime. I DON'T want them to make Coercers easy to play. If it's the only class in the game that is so difficult that there are only 13 of us on any server great as long as you give me my reward for being good at it.
Reactive damage is far more complicated to manage than a straight DD.. knowing when is the right time to stun and when is the right time to be DPS and right time to play CC... thats whats makes you a good coercer. We need more raid capability but as a class we can be badass if we KNOW what we are doing. I know I'm a good player and I know there are plenty others out there even better. If I wanted straight forward teir 1 DPS I'd play a ranger/sorcereer ect.. if I wanted to be an indespensible utility class I'd play a healer.. If I wanted easy point and slash I'd play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tank. I WANT my class to be so difficult that the average whiny joe can't do it. That they sit on the side lines and say sour grapes comments, while the rest of the "needed" classes go woah I can't believe we just did that, and i secretly know it's because I was there.
Now as for raids I rarely get that feeling.. the one were I know they NEEDED me over any other class there. Thats what I want for my class. It doesn't have to be over powering it just needs to be that well, "we need another coercer to do this" or "I'd feel heck of a lot more comfortable with another Coercer", just like they do for templars and furies and guardians... SK sorcerers.. ect everyone has something they they bring that no one else does as good as them. We are not the only class who gets gimped by epic invulnerability to stuns/stiffles/roots/ and mez/charms... but those are what we do best unlike any other class. all other classes have smaller versions of theese abilities or on a very scaled back quality/duration, they can't use theirs either.. but they have far more to fall back on since controll is not their primary use. Now if I can't have controll ability for a mob on a raid YES I want more reactive power. I want more DPS but not in the form of a nuke or uber DoT I want it to be tricky and complicated enough that all the bored healers,scouts whatever, out there decide to roll a coercer just to push the nuke in between pages of their favorite "raidtime book". Keep us difficult and frustrating but give us our reward for getting here.

I'll echo that, that's pretty much the same way I feel.

Osswald · 03-12-2006, 05:45 AM

Aranieq wrote:
I wouldnt change my reactive damage for a full blown nuke by any means. I wouldnt give up my uber stun capabilities either. I am no fanboi and neither is Mandelbrolt. We are not a straight forward class.. people need to get that. We SHOULD be hard to play. If I wanted to play an easy class my scout would be 65 and coercer would be the passtime. I DON'T want them to make Coercers easy to play. If it's the only class in the game that is so difficult that there are only 13 of us on any server great as long as you give me my reward for being good at it.
Reactive damage is far more complicated to manage than a straight DD.. knowing when is the right time to stun and when is the right time to be DPS and right time to play CC... thats whats makes you a good coercer. We need more raid capability but as a class we can be badass if we KNOW what we are doing. I know I'm a good player and I know there are plenty others out there even better. If I wanted straight forward teir 1 DPS I'd play a ranger/sorcereer ect.. if I wanted to be an indespensible utility class I'd play a healer.. If I wanted easy point and slash I'd play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tank. I WANT my class to be so difficult that the average whiny joe can't do it. That they sit on the side lines and say sour grapes comments, while the rest of the "needed" classes go woah I can't believe we just did that, and i secretly know it's because I was there.
I would say that any enchanter that is a good player has felt this and desires it. I know when you player with players that play their classes as well as good enchanters you would find people who can push the limits to high end content as opposed to people who think they should be entitled to do it by virtue of gracing us with their presense. We are a solid class for people who can understand the class and play it well. Groups and Soloing.
Now as for raids I rarely get that feeling.. the one were I know they NEEDED me over any other class there. Thats what I want for my class. It doesn't have to be over powering it just needs to be that well, "we need another coercer to do this" or "I'd feel heck of a lot more comfortable with another Coercer", just like they do for templars and furies and guardians... SK sorcerers.. ect everyone has something they they bring that no one else does as good as them. We are not the only class who gets gimped by epic invulnerability to stuns/stiffles/roots/ and mez/charms... but those are what we do best unlike any other class. all other classes have smaller versions of theese abilities or on a very scaled back quality/duration, they can't use theirs either.. but they have far more to fall back on since controll is not their primary use. Now if I can't have controll ability for a mob on a raid YES I want more reactive power. I want more DPS but not in the form of a nuke or uber DoT I want it to be tricky and complicated enough that all the bored healers,scouts whatever, out there decide to roll a coercer just to push the nuke in between pages of their favorite "raidtime book". Keep us difficult and frustrating but give us our reward for getting here.
I like the use of the words tricky and complicated. I did like it when you could cast all the reactives you had and if they proced you had to worry about agro. So you had to produce a stradegy and not over do it. I don't like the fact that people that can't control over excessive button pushing decide the fate of a class rather than ones who play it well.

I love being a coercer and I find it to be a challenging and rewarding class. If a few changes were made in the raiding department I really believe we got something going here. And a clearification on what possesion is good for wouldn't hurt me either.

Message Edited by Osswald on 03-11-200604:46 PM

Tanatus · 03-12-2006, 11:21 PM

Let me chew it one more time

In group coercer is DPS class .... some time THE dps (halls of fate). Atm coercers in grouping and solo department sitting where they should be aka top DPS dogs .... albeit situational and for a price. If you cannt outdamage assasin or conjurer with right pet well you doing something wrong. Our secondary function is disabling mobs - stun, stifle, mez in this order. And problem on raids that we cannt perform neither our primary function as Mage class (DPS) nor our secondary function mob disabling (as a enchanter class). Frankly I can live with just DPS fix on raids - there absolutely no harm to allow coercer charm at least something within raid instances - nobody asking about charming named, epics, ring event mob or something like that - all I want to be able charm some yard trash of my choosing

Aranieq · 03-13-2006, 12:33 AM

you can charm yard trash mobs...

norberg · 03-13-2006, 02:21 PM

Very much agree with most positive posts. Its very fun to play coercer because of our varied play style. If someone has problems with reactives canceling stuns, then well.....eh....nmAnyone know if our achievement spell casting slow/haste (think its the second on agility) affects epics? That would mean more than 20% lower dps if the mob is chain casting spells, thats not a bad debuff.btw, I cant understand what would be so much more fun about frantically hiting the nuke button during raid? raiding is about having fun together as a guild imho i dont mind being the one making sure others are doing their job well.Regarding epic encounters, I like the window of opportunity idea, either there is a message saying i.e. "mob x looks distracted" and you have 1 sec to hit stifle/stun or there could be a heroic opportunity triggered by e.g. a scout that opens up the chance to hit a stun.Anyhow, hope you are all having as good time with your coercer as I amRaukhurThe dark vengeanceSplitpaw

Aranieq · 03-13-2006, 07:22 PM

norberg02 wrote:Very much agree with most positive posts. Its very fun to play coercer because of our varied play style. If someone has problems with reactives canceling stuns, then well.....eh....nmAnyone know if our achievement spell casting slow/haste (think its the second on agility) affects epics? That would mean more than 20% lower dps if the mob is chain casting spells, thats not a bad debuff.btw, I cant understand what would be so much more fun about frantically hiting the nuke button during raid? raiding is about having fun together as a guild imho i dont mind being the one making sure others are doing their job well.Regarding epic encounters, I like the window of opportunity idea, either there is a message saying i.e. "mob x looks distracted" and you have 1 sec to hit stifle/stun or there could be a heroic opportunity triggered by e.g. a scout that opens up the chance to hit a stun.Anyhow, hope you are all having as good time with your coercer as I amRaukhurThe dark vengeanceSplitpaw

It would be cool if they gave rogues or assassin types a skill "distraction" that had a 3-5 min refresh that lasted 10 sec.. that would allow all spells currently not useable on epics to be casted.. It would allow us the chance to get our spells in on that window and alow for a slightly more complicated coordination between classes... maybee even giving another type of class a needed utility on raid they might be asking for .. like an assit type play.

Granted you could synch 2 or 3 right in a row but with the window to LAND the spell being only 10s wide im thinking maybee 3 of that class would be on the raid even if its stacked to put them in (make it a non uber utility class ie no clerics tanks, sorcerers) giving the window for any 5-10 min period being at tops 30s to LAND the spell. even with the longests stun landing at the last moment that still only 40s total of quiet time, wich would have required a bit of coordination to acheive not just poof 2 person hits their button and we win. The reason I say 3 tops is if it were uber stacked with that player then the raid would be low on the classes who could land in the window thus negating or mitigating the perpose for the window in the first place.

I wouldnt like it as a HO since HO's can be so unpredictable. For a good kill I'd like it to come down to major planning and coordination rather than woot we got the rare HO..

Distraction ideas:

an Illusionist doppleganger single target spell 10sec window: cast on tank and mob's agro is wiped and reset to doppleganger.(much like amnesia) Risk vs reward would be ther added coordination needed to reset hate list and get it back on tank meanwhile utilizing the window of oportunity. Would be a bit tricky since you can't just call off attack or you will miss the window

Brigand / Swashy Slight of hand 5sec window : A deck of cards flying through the air graphics with pretty fireworks ect... would cause the mob to loose target as it is focusing on the slight of hand movement. NO taunts or agro enhancing buffs would have effect during the window since the mob cannot focus on his hate list. risk vs reward being the brig having little to no ability to loose agro and the tanks major hit to the hate list during the window. this would have to be a shorter duration window .. perhaps 5s since its basically throwing something pretty in the air and when it lands the mob gets over it.

Coercer project Nightmish vision 10s window: projects a ghastly version of the coercer. The Coercer is unable to move, cast, or speak during the 10s or the nightmare fades as well as if the coercer takes direct mele damge (ie we can concentrate through spell damage due to our arcane prowess but physical damage brings us back to our body). The Mob's hate list would be wipe in the same manner as amnesia but the remaining duration of the image would distract the mob from being immune to other spells during the window. risk vs reward... long window but the coercer isnt able to use it only create it. also the coordination of agro controll. would create need for more than 1 coercer.

Could make it more complicated by having theese special spells with the only perpose being raid of course.. but to only be lit up when in raid group.. and all class spells would be on same timer.. ie the illusionist could only have 1 of them cast it and they would be linked together by timer. The idea of having a window for using theese spells but then taking away something important ie agro, player ability ect during the window would balance the risk vs reward. Could make all the spells castable on raid friend but not group so they could only be used in a raid format. OK just some ideas... hope not too lame haha

03-10-2006, 01:03 PM	#2
zit General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 573	RatWithGun wrote: .... Unfortunately if SoE allowed all our very effective single group spells usable on Epics then raids would be instantly trival as i will explain below. Stifle - Now if we are allowed to stifle raid encounters then they would be effectively pointless having spells so SoE would be stuck in having pure melee mobs, so out goes any tactics in dealing with AE's or Magical Attacks or even the need for resists, its just meatshield + heal spam Stuns - If raid encounters are stunable with our numerious stuns then add that to the above point a group of chanters could keep a raid encounter almost permenatly stunned so now the encounter isnt much of a melee challenge Mezz - Having problems? too many healers down? lost your maintank? Mezz the encounter and get everyone up and rebuffed and lets continue = encounter trival So we see that the 3 main abilties of a Coercer would unbalance a raid so we come to the issue which drives nearly every coercer "what can we do on a raid then?" .... this only holds true with the supposition that there is only a All-or Nothing-Option. we are not asking for being able to fully control epics, we are asking for our spells to not be fully unuseable. its the job of the Devs to be creative and implement and alter spell effects so they wont trivialize raids. it was the original idea with LU13 that some of our stuns and stifles would be able to affect epics just with a reduced effectivenss. apparently they havent been able to code it correctly and instead of fixing it they just disabled those spells on epics entirely again. this is a cheap and lazy solution and not really acceptable.

03-10-2006, 02:16 PM	#3
Astaroth_PoD Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 10	Up untill yesterday I was reasonably content with my class (66 enchanter)... Then I went to Halls of Fate.Bring a rag doll instead, it'll do the group more good! Mez doesn't work, stuns dont work. And you don't bring a coercer just for the power regen. Message Edited by Astaroth_PoD on 03-10-200610:17 AM __________________ Ether Drift Shadowknight Splitpaw

03-10-2006, 09:19 PM	#8
Ricon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 8	7 of your listed spells are useable against an Epic mob, although I doubtanyone would want to use Memwipe much on a raid I think the key to making Coercers more active in a raid is to lower theresistance rate against our Debuffs, specifically the resistance ratevs our Resistance debuff spell/s.This lets us have more of a chance to effect the Epic with our otherspells, such as Reactives and Nukes etc.At present, the resist rate is such that we effectively become manabatterys/buff bots because most of the rest of the things we can do to themob get resisted and resisted and resisted, including the very spells werely on to reduce the target's resistance to our stuff in the first place.I dont think bringing back stuns or stifles will happen, but maybe a slighttweak to Epic resistance to our debuffs will help keep Coercers aroundfor raids as interested participants, not bored alts? __________________ Aerth, Najena Server (from Nektulos) Explicit Coercer.

03-10-2006, 10:52 PM	#9
Mandelbro Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 235	Flipmode wrote: Well designed class?!?! Lets see... Reactive based damage...and stuns out the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]... How much damage will our reactives do when the mob is stunned? You're assuming that we should be using ALL our spells ALL the time. I disagree. I see this as choice. For me, more choice = more fun = well designed. Choice is the reason I'm not playing a Wizard. I don't want to play a one dimensional class.If my group has other classes that do more damage, then I'll let them do damage and cut down on the incoming damage from the mob, thereby increasing the efficiency of our group. If we are heavy on healers, then I'll add my reactive damage to the mix and not stun.I don't think that we're well designed when it comes to raid content, but I'm only addressing your example here.

03-10-2006, 11:45 PM	#11
Ricon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 8	Those DoF raids are very situational though, in general peeps dont wantMemwipe used on raids as a badly timed one would see mass deaths resultand a lot of grief for the coercer.Besides which it would be used once, maybe twice, tops on the few RaidEpics that would see it used at all, afterwards we are left standing aroundwatching 'resist' msgs spam like usual I'm looking at things we can do when battling any Epic mob in general.Hence the suggested reduction in resistance rates against our resitance debuff,it helps us land our other spells a bit more without adding in things that trivialisethe Epic mob again?If our spells would stick on Epics a bit more perhaps the image of manabattery and buff bot would fade from the perception held by many Coercers? __________________ Aerth, Najena Server (from Nektulos) Explicit Coercer.

03-10-2006, 10:03 AM	#1
RatWithGun Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 36	The first point i would like to make is the coercer is a very well designed and powerful single group class, we have a vast number of effective and helpful spells which allow groups to exp fast and to make named encounters alot easier. Now onto raids, now SoE must make Raid encounters tough enough so they are not easily beaten and become trival and open to farming, this would also make the game easy to finish and would have hordes of players quitting through boredom unless SoE release an expansion every 2 months. Unfortunately if SoE allowed all our very effective single group spells usable on Epics then raids would be instantly trival as i will explain below. Stifle - Now if we are allowed to stifle raid encounters then they would be effectively pointless having spells so SoE would be stuck in having pure melee mobs, so out goes any tactics in dealing with AE's or Magical Attacks or even the need for resists, its just meatshield + heal spam Stuns - If raid encounters are stunable with our numerious stuns then add that to the above point a group of chanters could keep a raid encounter almost permenatly stunned so now the encounter isnt much of a melee challenge Mezz - Having problems? too many healers down? lost your maintank? Mezz the encounter and get everyone up and rebuffed and lets continue = encounter trival So we see that the 3 main abilties of a Coercer would unbalance a raid so we come to the issue which drives nearly every coercer "what can we do on a raid then?" Reactive Melee Damage Spell x2 Reactive Spell Damage Spell Agi/Int Buff Power/Magic/Divine/Mental Buff Auto Attack DPS Buff (effects ranged attacks now also) Debuff vs all Arcane Resists Hate Gain Buff x2 Mana Regen x2 Minor Nukes (Ego Torrent at Master 1 is 1k+ damage with a resonable recast) x1 Large Nuke (Sonic boom can still be used as a 2k+ nuke if the encounter is not a ranged fight) Mezz (Yes some encounters have mezzable adds which can inflict alot of damage) x2 Minor DoT's (One which allows the Coercer to regain power) Manacloak Channel Memwipe +% to Group Critical Heal chance (AP) -% Hate Gain to non fighters in group (AP) For such a useless class with nothing to bring to a raid thats a pretty long list, im not saying that the Enchanter is perfect far from it, i would personally like to see large increases to our raid useable buffs and debuffs and maybe a few new types of buffs/debuffs with the expense of some of our single group spell lines like our power drains since that is rather useless. In my opinon all this negative about our class makes people believe all the rubbish that Coercers are merely ManaBatteries and so we bring our own downfall by making people think were useless, if we were really that useless why do i see nearly every high level raiding guild using or trying to recruit our rare class. We need tweaking yes but were not broken.

03-10-2006, 02:54 PM	#4
RatWithGun Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 36	Your doing something seriously wrong then, my mezz works fine on all of the mobs in HoF and also my stuns, cleared the entire zone with no deaths simply because we had CC.

03-10-2006, 06:47 PM	#5
Olondy Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 30	Coercers seem a strong class to me as well and I agree.However, it is easy enough for SOE to make raid mobs have "windows" where they are open to stunz, or mez, or stifle. This makes it much more interesting than just a blanket works/does not work.City of Heroes did this as a solution for controllers who were feeling useless against epic mobs. After the change, if you stacked enough stuns/stifles whatever they could get through, though not for terribly long. This made a good controller able to heavily cut down the damage/mobility of an epic mob, but in no way trivialized the encounter.EQ2 might work for example: An average raid mob might have 30seconds out of every minute where if you stack enough stuns/stifle they could get through for a time. A tough raid mob might have the "vulnerable to stun" window reduced to 15sec out of a minute. Also, make this window random, and give subtle or no hints that it is there, so it will take alot of coercer skill/intuition to use it effectively.100% immunity is just a cheap cop out till they find the time to make it more nuanced and interesting like City of Heroes did.

03-10-2006, 08:04 PM	#6
Dr_Cyr Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 65	Raid utility is the major gripe. You cite mostly grouping stuff. Few have problems there. The main ones are recited below.There are some glaring errors with the class implementation, like ManaFlow AA being the way it is with a power requirement of below 10%, and the bad choices given for our M2 at 64, the 65 level "special" spell thats really not very special at all (I htink they made an error in rage, it shoudl be either longer duration or longer range). Add to that some heroic content has become immune to mez. And the hats are farking UGLY.But you paint a bit of a rosy picture: really there is no need for mez much anywhere anymore (Vaults being the exception) because its faster and more relible to burn them down with AE stuff. The game mechanics favor that solution. And many of the scenarios that you paint are exceptions, not the rule for high level grouped play; there are other more commonly used ways around them. Likewise nearly every one of those spells and abilities is covered well enough by another class that has additional desired utility that we do not. Lets take Dirges for example: can power buff the same as our baseline maintained regen, and they have better MT buffs, can add their own damage, have stuns and charms, and can rez in combat and evac as well (neither of which we can do). On top of that dirges are key for popping the right HO - they (scouts) are required for really leveraging HOs properly, unlike the coercer hat contributes none of these things. Also given the influx in Flowing Thought items, power regen past the baseline that sirge/troub cna provide, its not that big a deal anymore. So for a group where Minds Eye is NOT that much of a big add, dirges are simply better to have around than coercers. Dirges truly are a utility class. We coercers are not, due to design flaws (half our spells offset the other half, reactives vs stuns/mezzes, and what mage want to get hit?), and some odd spell choices made by the developers (Master 2 choices at 64, the aforemetioned messed up level 65 spell, the useless entry AA, etc).Bottom line is: If coercers really were a superior, or even a sufficient answer to the challenges presented by this game and the scenrious the designers have set up, there'd be more demand for us. Then you woudl ahve more coercers instead of the handful that exist at higher levels. There will always be a "least played" class, but the numbers are so dramatically different that the spread in the Mage classes shows there is something broken. The least played class in the game 60+ is coercer. No denying that. Barely more than 400 between ALL servers total (per eq2 census post Ive seen), and does not differentiate retired 60's from botted 60's from ones actually being played as a main, so the actual numbers are probably smaller for "real" active coercers. The number of coercers could be tripled and just barely surpass the next lowest non-chanter class, the Warlock, even as out of favor as they are on raids due to AE instead of single target. And it not just Coercers: add the total number of coercers and illusionists, and you STILL do not have more than the next lowest mage class, Warlocks. There are almost 5 times as many Wizard, about 3 times as many Conjurors and Necromancers. And we lost our only post 60 illusionist to DDO last week, playing that until Vanguard comes out, due to boredom wiht the class and the lack of any active or vital role in most of the end-game. Face it, theres simply no "there" there for chanters in general in the end game, and for Coercers in particular- being a bot is about all you are needed for. I knwo because my coercer is slowly but surely truning into a alt-bot while I play a new main that is much more suited to the game the way it is now.You cannot escape the numbers, the numbers do not lie.Those are the real issues other than raid related stuff.And once you hit 70, raid related stuff is all there is. Message Edited by Dr_Cyrus on 03-10-200605:39 PM

03-10-2006, 08:40 PM	#7
Flipmode Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 301	Well designed class?!?! Lets see... Reactive based damage...and stuns out the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]... How much damage will our reactives do when the mob is stunned?

03-10-2006, 10:55 PM	#10
RatWithGun Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 36	A lot of DoF raid mobs had a memwipe on the MT, A coercer casting Memwipe soon as the mob does in a well controled raid allows the MT to regain instant aggro

03-11-2006, 12:40 AM	#12
Aranieq EQ2BM Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: EST (Boston Area) Posts: 590	If our stun/stiffle/root/mezz spells were reduced to even 50% the full time as for heroics and singles then we would be far more efective on raids and not become overpowering. we would not be able to chain stun since our refresh times would not change just teh effective durration of our stuns.. To me its really our stuns that need to become effective.. can argue charm and mezz but our bread and butter as to mitigation ability are our stuns.. We don't need more dps ability to be effective we need more ability to controll.. and in an epic capacity the only way i see that is to allow us stun ability. __________________

03-11-2006, 01:15 AM	#13
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Bad look on it this way Wards and Reactives as well as Stackable Regeneration trivilize encounter in LARGER degree then stuns, stifle could possibly do even in our dreams. There is NO DIFFERENCE between chain warding group and chain stuning mob per se. Lol tell me about mez ... but lets follow your logic shall we? MT down, Healers down ... well [Removed for Content] get second tank in and more healers in raid ..... totaly trivilized encounter no? Coercer IF our primary skills would work could bring some diversity to current ZERGGGGGGG tactic of killing every single encounter in game. Let me put this blant - as long as you have a lot healers and good geared tank .... you good to go. Jousting AoE and using multiple MT on mobs with agro switch is just a gravy not a tactic ... Dont make me laugh about our DPS on raid - we suppose to do same DPS as conjurer or necro (with tank pet) or same DPS as bruiser (currently those classes usually in top 6 DPS on raid). Magus M2 on fully debuffed mob (after it stopped do multiple proc on AE) have physical limit around 150DPS, our nukes AND dots could add more like 150-200DPS extra we ending up with 350 susteined DPS which IS below DPS of priests.... This easy to fix - just allow us charm within raid instances good pet easy can bring 500-600DPS susteined on the table placing us on our rightfull place on top of food chain. I dont know about you but then I made coercer I had in mind be ABSOLUTE champion of DPS (situantional albeit) via charmed pet So I guess what I wanted to say - [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] the buffs, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] the CC - I did not made coercer to do that lol if I want that I'd made illusionist - I want DPS, DPS and a little more DPS

03-11-2006, 03:54 AM	#14
Mandelbro Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 235	Charm in a raid instance might be nice, but due to the way that encounters were locked when you charmed a mob, and the encounter wouldn't give up its loot until your charmed pet died, this is a little dicey. Granted, now your charmed mob no longer counts towards the encounter limit, so this may have been fixed, however I'm not willing to jeopordize bugging the drop from a raid just because I want a chance at some DPS.Letting our stuns/stifles work for 50% of the duration is moot when you consider the fact that if that happens, guilds will recruit Coercers and insert every class that can stun/stifle and pack the raid with enough of those classes to chain stun/stifle the raid mob, thereby trivializing. It would be history repeating itself, as all of that has happened already in EQ2's lifetime.Instead of reducing the duration, make it so that we can stun/stifle a raid mob, but then make that mob immune to the effect for x amount of time. They've done it in PvP, it would give us something very useful to do on a raid, and it would make chain stunning/stifling impossible.Granted, some raid mobs are scripted for certain events and abilities to go off at certain times, so there may have to be allowances.Looking at history again, however, shows us that hope for such changes remains only hope. I want to add that I will continue to hope.

03-11-2006, 04:22 AM	#15
Gammelt Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 29	Well I was intrigued with the title of this thread and then the OP missed stated the part that intrigued me. I played an Enchanter for 6 years in EQ1 and a Coercer from day one in EQ2. I have never claimed, nor will you ever hear me claim that I am a great Enchanter/Coercer. There are plenty of you people out there that have more knowledge and apply that knowledge at a level far greater than I do. That being said, I am a good Coercer and try my best to play the class well. Re: Is our class really that broken or are the majority of Coercers just bad players? As I said in another post today, Anyone can play any class in this game. There is a world of difference between playing a class and being a skilled player of that class. It is those players that will not learn how to play a class that complain the loudest. They want everything handed to them on a silver platter - rather than learning how to play a class to it greatest potential. That does not mean Coercers do not have problems, but those of us that have stuck it out are the ones that realize the unique characteristics of our class and enjoy them. Of all of the classes I think that playing an Enchanter/Coercer/Illusionist is one of the most challenging classes to play well. And I emphasize the PLAYING WELL part. If you want a real challenge, then become a master at playing an Enchanter class. Just an Old man's Mumblings on our class. Message Edited by Gammelt on 03-10-200603:23 PM __________________ Gammelt Trae, aka The Ancient One 70 Coercer, Crushbone "Nothing is completely fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool."

03-11-2006, 05:09 AM	#16
Anisha Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 11	With the recent nerfing or fixing of procs, our DPS is laughable, a meleeing inq can do more dps then us. Spell whip used to be our saving grace in terms of DPS, it didnt work on all mobs, it wasnt perfect and sometime if you over did it you pulled agro. BUT atleast we werent last in the dps food chain. You know, i always expected a fix to this spell, i new the dmg output was based on a bugg. But i also expected to get somethign in return for loosing it. guess i was wrong. __________________ Aalazan 70 coercer of Najena Second Dawn

03-11-2006, 10:23 AM	#17
Argan Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 47	Astaroth_PoD wrote: Up untill yesterday I was reasonably content with my class (66 enchanter)... Then I went to Halls of Fate.Bring a rag doll instead, it'll do the group more good! Mez doesn't work, stuns dont work. And you don't bring a coercer just for the power regen. Message Edited by Astaroth_PoD on 03-10-200610:17 AM You gota be a complete noob to go in there as a coercer and NOT CHARM THE MOBS .... Seriously those mobs you cant mez/stun/stiffle can be charmed, and they are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]en dps monsters when they are charmed. Can finish the instance in 1hr np with one. Only problem is if it breaks, I live around 50% of the time, with a healer that knows what is what. People beg me to come clear halls cause its so quick with me around. And if you dont like charming the bigger mobs, charm a destroyer they work as good and you live 90% of the time. __________________

03-11-2006, 10:28 AM	#18
Argan Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 47	Anisha wrote: With the recent nerfing or fixing of procs, our DPS is laughable, a meleeing inq can do more dps then us. Spell whip used to be our saving grace in terms of DPS, it didnt work on all mobs, it wasnt perfect and sometime if you over did it you pulled agro. BUT atleast we werent last in the dps food chain. You know, i always expected a fix to this spell, i new the dmg output was based on a bugg. But i also expected to get somethign in return for loosing it. guess i was wrong. We're not a dps class, if you wanna dps charm something. Although most every raid encounter is not gona be charmed sadly. I can still crank out 400-500 dps in a raid, If i'm paying attention and not watching tv. If you really wanna be dps go int line and get crits, since agility is kinda stupid if you ask me, quick cast [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that has 1 sec casting time, not really noticeable upgrade. __________________

03-11-2006, 10:36 AM	#19
Flipmode Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 301	Mandelbrodt wrote: Flipmode wrote: Well designed class?!?! Lets see... Reactive based damage...and stuns out the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]... How much damage will our reactives do when the mob is stunned? You're assuming that we should be using ALL our spells ALL the time. I disagree. I see this as choice. For me, more choice = more fun = well designed. Choice is the reason I'm not playing a Wizard. I don't want to play a one dimensional class.If my group has other classes that do more damage, then I'll let them do damage and cut down on the incoming damage from the mob, thereby increasing the efficiency of our group. If we are heavy on healers, then I'll add my reactive damage to the mix and not stun.I don't think that we're well designed when it comes to raid content, but I'm only addressing your example here. Even if we dont use our stuns, stifles, or interrupts...every class in the game has em. So they will be lowering your dps if you choose to go dps mode. Again, the reacive based damage is poor class design. No need to be a fanboy about it. If you can only use one mode of your spell at any one given time...gratz you just became "one dimensional".

03-11-2006, 09:05 PM	#20
Aranieq EQ2BM Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: EST (Boston Area) Posts: 590	I wouldnt change my reactive damage for a full blown nuke by any means. I wouldnt give up my uber stun capabilities either. I am no fanboi and neither is Mandelbrolt. We are not a straight forward class.. people need to get that. We SHOULD be hard to play. If I wanted to play an easy class my scout would be 65 and coercer would be the passtime. I DON'T want them to make Coercers easy to play. If it's the only class in the game that is so difficult that there are only 13 of us on any server great as long as you give me my reward for being good at it. Reactive damage is far more complicated to manage than a straight DD.. knowing when is the right time to stun and when is the right time to be DPS and right time to play CC... thats whats makes you a good coercer. We need more raid capability but as a class we can be badass if we KNOW what we are doing. I know I'm a good player and I know there are plenty others out there even better. If I wanted straight forward teir 1 DPS I'd play a ranger/sorcereer ect.. if I wanted to be an indespensible utility class I'd play a healer.. If I wanted easy point and slash I'd play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tank. I WANT my class to be so difficult that the average whiny joe can't do it. That they sit on the side lines and say sour grapes comments, while the rest of the "needed" classes go woah I can't believe we just did that, and i secretly know it's because I was there. Now as for raids I rarely get that feeling.. the one were I know they NEEDED me over any other class there. Thats what I want for my class. It doesn't have to be over powering it just needs to be that well, "we need another coercer to do this" or "I'd feel heck of a lot more comfortable with another Coercer", just like they do for templars and furies and guardians... SK sorcerers.. ect everyone has something they they bring that no one else does as good as them. We are not the only class who gets gimped by epic invulnerability to stuns/stiffles/roots/ and mez/charms... but those are what we do best unlike any other class. all other classes have smaller versions of theese abilities or on a very scaled back quality/duration, they can't use theirs either.. but they have far more to fall back on since controll is not their primary use. Now if I can't have controll ability for a mob on a raid YES I want more reactive power. I want more DPS but not in the form of a nuke or uber DoT I want it to be tricky and complicated enough that all the bored healers,scouts whatever, out there decide to roll a coercer just to push the nuke in between pages of their favorite "raidtime book". Keep us difficult and frustrating but give us our reward for getting here. __________________

03-11-2006, 10:40 PM	#21
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Ppl you missing the point .... there is NO DIFFERENCE between CHAIN HEALING/WARDING and CHAIN STUNING thus there is no problem with allow coercers stun the mobs and shamans warding tanks I want to repeat it again and again Coercer IS NOT untility class - NEVER MEANT TO BE that way.... Coercer is a MAGE class and as such it IS DPS class. If I want to make utility class I'd make SCOUT not MAGE

03-11-2006, 11:49 PM	#22
Verdemy Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 59	Tanatus wrote: Ppl you missing the point .... there is NO DIFFERENCE between CHAIN HEALING/WARDING and CHAIN STUNING thus there is no problem with allow coercers stun the mobs and shamans warding tanks I want to repeat it again and again Coercer IS NOT untility class - NEVER MEANT TO BE that way.... Coercer is a MAGE class and as such it IS DPS class. If I want to make utility class I'd make SCOUT not MAGE Tanatus,you know much more then me, not doubting that..but i have read you argue this point ad nauseum..that coercer is dps because is mage. Well, that's your opinion , and you're entitled to it..but over the past 1 1/2 years it has been repeated many times over that coercer's role is subtle, diverse and well, challenging to do well. Asking for significant dps in addition to the many ways we affect group encounters would overpower us and won't happen. I'm satisfied, mostly, with the current group and individual combat dynamics and think if they'd tweak our ability to participate in epic encounters in some way we'd be good to go.I also would like to agree with the poster who stated that coercer's are supposed to be challenging, and thus even when successfully designed won't be a super popular class...what has lacked at times has been rewarding perseverence and skill.

03-12-2006, 12:03 AM	#23
Anachronomicon Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 47	The idea of the window of opportunity for stuns/stifle is a good one. My idea was that if they ever really are concerned about raid usefulness of the enchanter classes they let us- and only us- use our stuns at a very limited rate. Shield bashes, knockdown punches, stunning shots, and secondary stun effects on nukes should still not effect epics. But a class that is so defined by its ability to control creatures should have a chance to do just a little bit of it on a raid. If all the stuns were set to 1/4 of their effectiveness you'd be looking at a maximum of a 3 second stun at any time. If you think that's too powerful make it even less... but make it something. Just that little extra bit could be a key part that would have enchanters everywhere keeping their heads up during a raid for that opportunity to do ANYTHING worthwhile. I think you'd be surprised how little of a difference it would make in terms of trivialization, but how much of a difference it would make in class satisfaction. Senelin Venelitus 67 Froglok Coercer - EverGrobb

03-12-2006, 01:44 AM	#24
Aranieq EQ2BM Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: EST (Boston Area) Posts: 590	even if particular stunn line would be accepted then that would be something for example our psychic wail or our primary stun/power drain (10s) if we even had 1 of those as effective then it would not lead to chain stunning in anymore of a ability than chain runing does. Yes chain healing is different than chain stunning I don't understand how you can't see the difference ther. chain healeing allows for mob ability and varation as well as the need for agro controll of the raid.. with chain stunning the mob does nothing except sit there and slowly wait to die.. there is no need for agro buffs or healing or anything except dps... how do you not see that difference? __________________

03-12-2006, 02:01 AM	#25
Nuhus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,480	Aranieq wrote: I wouldnt change my reactive damage for a full blown nuke by any means. I wouldnt give up my uber stun capabilities either. I am no fanboi and neither is Mandelbrolt. We are not a straight forward class.. people need to get that. We SHOULD be hard to play. If I wanted to play an easy class my scout would be 65 and coercer would be the passtime. I DON'T want them to make Coercers easy to play. If it's the only class in the game that is so difficult that there are only 13 of us on any server great as long as you give me my reward for being good at it. Reactive damage is far more complicated to manage than a straight DD.. knowing when is the right time to stun and when is the right time to be DPS and right time to play CC... thats whats makes you a good coercer. We need more raid capability but as a class we can be badass if we KNOW what we are doing. I know I'm a good player and I know there are plenty others out there even better. If I wanted straight forward teir 1 DPS I'd play a ranger/sorcereer ect.. if I wanted to be an indespensible utility class I'd play a healer.. If I wanted easy point and slash I'd play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tank. I WANT my class to be so difficult that the average whiny joe can't do it. That they sit on the side lines and say sour grapes comments, while the rest of the "needed" classes go woah I can't believe we just did that, and i secretly know it's because I was there. Now as for raids I rarely get that feeling.. the one were I know they NEEDED me over any other class there. Thats what I want for my class. It doesn't have to be over powering it just needs to be that well, "we need another coercer to do this" or "I'd feel heck of a lot more comfortable with another Coercer", just like they do for templars and furies and guardians... SK sorcerers.. ect everyone has something they they bring that no one else does as good as them. We are not the only class who gets gimped by epic invulnerability to stuns/stiffles/roots/ and mez/charms... but those are what we do best unlike any other class. all other classes have smaller versions of theese abilities or on a very scaled back quality/duration, they can't use theirs either.. but they have far more to fall back on since controll is not their primary use. Now if I can't have controll ability for a mob on a raid YES I want more reactive power. I want more DPS but not in the form of a nuke or uber DoT I want it to be tricky and complicated enough that all the bored healers,scouts whatever, out there decide to roll a coercer just to push the nuke in between pages of their favorite "raidtime book". Keep us difficult and frustrating but give us our reward for getting here. I'll echo that, that's pretty much the same way I feel. __________________ SOE will kill off EQ2 before it would naturally die.. 11/10/2004-9/19/2010 - for me

03-12-2006, 05:45 AM	#26
Osswald Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 16	Aranieq wrote: I wouldnt change my reactive damage for a full blown nuke by any means. I wouldnt give up my uber stun capabilities either. I am no fanboi and neither is Mandelbrolt. We are not a straight forward class.. people need to get that. We SHOULD be hard to play. If I wanted to play an easy class my scout would be 65 and coercer would be the passtime. I DON'T want them to make Coercers easy to play. If it's the only class in the game that is so difficult that there are only 13 of us on any server great as long as you give me my reward for being good at it. Reactive damage is far more complicated to manage than a straight DD.. knowing when is the right time to stun and when is the right time to be DPS and right time to play CC... thats whats makes you a good coercer. We need more raid capability but as a class we can be badass if we KNOW what we are doing. I know I'm a good player and I know there are plenty others out there even better. If I wanted straight forward teir 1 DPS I'd play a ranger/sorcereer ect.. if I wanted to be an indespensible utility class I'd play a healer.. If I wanted easy point and slash I'd play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tank. I WANT my class to be so difficult that the average whiny joe can't do it. That they sit on the side lines and say sour grapes comments, while the rest of the "needed" classes go woah I can't believe we just did that, and i secretly know it's because I was there. I would say that any enchanter that is a good player has felt this and desires it. I know when you player with players that play their classes as well as good enchanters you would find people who can push the limits to high end content as opposed to people who think they should be entitled to do it by virtue of gracing us with their presense. We are a solid class for people who can understand the class and play it well. Groups and Soloing. Now as for raids I rarely get that feeling.. the one were I know they NEEDED me over any other class there. Thats what I want for my class. It doesn't have to be over powering it just needs to be that well, "we need another coercer to do this" or "I'd feel heck of a lot more comfortable with another Coercer", just like they do for templars and furies and guardians... SK sorcerers.. ect everyone has something they they bring that no one else does as good as them. We are not the only class who gets gimped by epic invulnerability to stuns/stiffles/roots/ and mez/charms... but those are what we do best unlike any other class. all other classes have smaller versions of theese abilities or on a very scaled back quality/duration, they can't use theirs either.. but they have far more to fall back on since controll is not their primary use. Now if I can't have controll ability for a mob on a raid YES I want more reactive power. I want more DPS but not in the form of a nuke or uber DoT I want it to be tricky and complicated enough that all the bored healers,scouts whatever, out there decide to roll a coercer just to push the nuke in between pages of their favorite "raidtime book". Keep us difficult and frustrating but give us our reward for getting here. I like the use of the words tricky and complicated. I did like it when you could cast all the reactives you had and if they proced you had to worry about agro. So you had to produce a stradegy and not over do it. I don't like the fact that people that can't control over excessive button pushing decide the fate of a class rather than ones who play it well. I love being a coercer and I find it to be a challenging and rewarding class. If a few changes were made in the raiding department I really believe we got something going here. And a clearification on what possesion is good for wouldn't hurt me either. Message Edited by Osswald on 03-11-200604:46 PM

03-12-2006, 11:21 PM	#27
Tanatus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Let me chew it one more time In group coercer is DPS class .... some time THE dps (halls of fate). Atm coercers in grouping and solo department sitting where they should be aka top DPS dogs .... albeit situational and for a price. If you cannt outdamage assasin or conjurer with right pet well you doing something wrong. Our secondary function is disabling mobs - stun, stifle, mez in this order. And problem on raids that we cannt perform neither our primary function as Mage class (DPS) nor our secondary function mob disabling (as a enchanter class). Frankly I can live with just DPS fix on raids - there absolutely no harm to allow coercer charm at least something within raid instances - nobody asking about charming named, epics, ring event mob or something like that - all I want to be able charm some yard trash of my choosing

03-13-2006, 12:33 AM	#28
Aranieq EQ2BM Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: EST (Boston Area) Posts: 590	you can charm yard trash mobs... __________________

03-13-2006, 02:21 PM	#29
norberg Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 53	Very much agree with most positive posts. Its very fun to play coercer because of our varied play style. If someone has problems with reactives canceling stuns, then well.....eh....nmAnyone know if our achievement spell casting slow/haste (think its the second on agility) affects epics? That would mean more than 20% lower dps if the mob is chain casting spells, thats not a bad debuff.btw, I cant understand what would be so much more fun about frantically hiting the nuke button during raid? raiding is about having fun together as a guild imho i dont mind being the one making sure others are doing their job well.Regarding epic encounters, I like the window of opportunity idea, either there is a message saying i.e. "mob x looks distracted" and you have 1 sec to hit stifle/stun or there could be a heroic opportunity triggered by e.g. a scout that opens up the chance to hit a stun.Anyhow, hope you are all having as good time with your coercer as I amRaukhurThe dark vengeanceSplitpaw

03-13-2006, 07:22 PM	#30
Aranieq EQ2BM Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: EST (Boston Area) Posts: 590	norberg02 wrote:Very much agree with most positive posts. Its very fun to play coercer because of our varied play style. If someone has problems with reactives canceling stuns, then well.....eh....nmAnyone know if our achievement spell casting slow/haste (think its the second on agility) affects epics? That would mean more than 20% lower dps if the mob is chain casting spells, thats not a bad debuff.btw, I cant understand what would be so much more fun about frantically hiting the nuke button during raid? raiding is about having fun together as a guild imho i dont mind being the one making sure others are doing their job well.Regarding epic encounters, I like the window of opportunity idea, either there is a message saying i.e. "mob x looks distracted" and you have 1 sec to hit stifle/stun or there could be a heroic opportunity triggered by e.g. a scout that opens up the chance to hit a stun.Anyhow, hope you are all having as good time with your coercer as I amRaukhurThe dark vengeanceSplitpaw It would be cool if they gave rogues or assassin types a skill "distraction" that had a 3-5 min refresh that lasted 10 sec.. that would allow all spells currently not useable on epics to be casted.. It would allow us the chance to get our spells in on that window and alow for a slightly more complicated coordination between classes... maybee even giving another type of class a needed utility on raid they might be asking for .. like an assit type play. Granted you could synch 2 or 3 right in a row but with the window to LAND the spell being only 10s wide im thinking maybee 3 of that class would be on the raid even if its stacked to put them in (make it a non uber utility class ie no clerics tanks, sorcerers) giving the window for any 5-10 min period being at tops 30s to LAND the spell. even with the longests stun landing at the last moment that still only 40s total of quiet time, wich would have required a bit of coordination to acheive not just poof 2 person hits their button and we win. The reason I say 3 tops is if it were uber stacked with that player then the raid would be low on the classes who could land in the window thus negating or mitigating the perpose for the window in the first place. I wouldnt like it as a HO since HO's can be so unpredictable. For a good kill I'd like it to come down to major planning and coordination rather than woot we got the rare HO.. Distraction ideas: an Illusionist doppleganger single target spell 10sec window: cast on tank and mob's agro is wiped and reset to doppleganger.(much like amnesia) Risk vs reward would be ther added coordination needed to reset hate list and get it back on tank meanwhile utilizing the window of oportunity. Would be a bit tricky since you can't just call off attack or you will miss the window Brigand / Swashy Slight of hand 5sec window : A deck of cards flying through the air graphics with pretty fireworks ect... would cause the mob to loose target as it is focusing on the slight of hand movement. NO taunts or agro enhancing buffs would have effect during the window since the mob cannot focus on his hate list. risk vs reward being the brig having little to no ability to loose agro and the tanks major hit to the hate list during the window. this would have to be a shorter duration window .. perhaps 5s since its basically throwing something pretty in the air and when it lands the mob gets over it. Coercer project Nightmish vision 10s window: projects a ghastly version of the coercer. The Coercer is unable to move, cast, or speak during the 10s or the nightmare fades as well as if the coercer takes direct mele damge (ie we can concentrate through spell damage due to our arcane prowess but physical damage brings us back to our body). The Mob's hate list would be wipe in the same manner as amnesia but the remaining duration of the image would distract the mob from being immune to other spells during the window. risk vs reward... long window but the coercer isnt able to use it only create it. also the coordination of agro controll. would create need for more than 1 coercer. Could make it more complicated by having theese special spells with the only perpose being raid of course.. but to only be lit up when in raid group.. and all class spells would be on same timer.. ie the illusionist could only have 1 of them cast it and they would be linked together by timer. The idea of having a window for using theese spells but then taking away something important ie agro, player ability ect during the window would balance the risk vs reward. Could make all the spells castable on raid friend but not group so they could only be used in a raid format. OK just some ideas... hope not too lame haha __________________