Dungeon Maker: Play as Self Feedback Thread

[Kuulei]

Well Cy, I ran it on a copy of Kuulei thats about a week old and aside from 1 pc a gear difference than the current Kuu on Everfrost, she is set to what I normally run with, gear and aa spec for her HERE

I cleared the whole dungeon of yours, in 20 minutes, for a total of 155 Marks.

would have been sooner, but I had to read all the books

I finally had to challenge myself and pull 8-12 mobs at a time.

[Cyliena]

Kuulei wrote:

Well Cy, I ran it on a copy of Kuulei thats about a week old and aside from 1 pc a gear difference than the current Kuu on Everfrost, she is set to what I normally run with, gear and aa spec for her HERE

I cleared the whole dungeon of yours, in 20 minutes, for a total of 155 Marks.

would have been sooner, but I had to read all the books

I finally had to challenge myself and pull 8-12 mobs at a time.

So for a 92 in mostly fabled, no problem. I kinda figured it'd be that way, it seems to be that they tuned their level agonostic feature around a decently geared 92. If I made that on live I could probably clear it with an avatar in 20-30 mins tops. I'll have to try it later with a lower level char or an avatar.

[Pixiewrath]

Mobs seem to have a lot of health in the dungeon maker when playing as yourself.I copied my lvl 92 toon, Pixiewrath from Freeport and am running around in the test arena mentioned above. Mobs dont hit for too much, but they take ages to kill compared to using avatars.Is it possible to copy your dungeon from live to test server in some way?All of my dungeons contain various mobs from tiered up, to tiered down, with different effect objects and so on so they feel like real dungeons and are fairly easy with the Duhjalm Sentinel which is more or less the standard people seem to use to balance with.And if not, could a dev copy my dungeons "Delving into the Depths - Part I" and "Delving into the Depths - Part III" from the Freeport server to the test server(s)?The first one should be relatively easy with all avatars, the other is a bit more challenging and with the duhjalm, I usually die once or twice in it.But I have played them tons of times so it would be much easier to compare how it feels like to also try them on test as myself.

[Pixiewrath]

I found the end battle in the previously mentioned arena map challenging against the tiered up mob and it's adds with my 92 warlock. I didnt die, but it required lots of tactical rooting to survive, not just tank and spank. So that worked pretty good.The rest of the dungeon was too easy. Mainly, the mobs didn't deal enough damage to pose a threat. I could just nuke them with my spells and tank them.I did notice one thing I didn't like though. While playing with my own avatar, the slowfall effect from my mount and/or fae floating ability was not disabled.While it is fun to float about mid-air, it is not good to allow this because it will allow people to take shortcuts and reach places in the dungeons that avatars cannot reach, and that allows exploiting and/or can get you stuck in places you are not meant to go. So floating in dungeons should be disabled. For the same reason, speed buffs should be ignored.Another thing is that I could activate invisibility and skip the entire thing. I know Greater Awareness makes mobs see you if stealthing, but that doesn't exist as a single mob buff, only an entire room.Wouldn't it be better to separate it from Greater Awareness, and make it an effect object of it's own instead? Both multi and single.(Or better yet, trash the crate system and let us apply stats to mobs individually through a menu.)

[Corydonn]

Corydonn from Antonia Server level 92 Bruiser, 320AA Dungeon: Cinder's Test by Cindermous

Overall: Was pretty great and spread out so you could single pull the encounters. But that's not what I was testing

Encounter 1: A Full pull of the first room proved to be fairly easy the mobs hit for around 700 which was nothing on a 50k hp player but ok for solo content.

Encounter 2: Three rooms or so, Still not very challenging as an AE and burn everything down. A few spammed control effects did hinder progress a bit but nothing deadly.

Encounter 3:The rest of the dungeon, About 200 mobs or so. Slightly dangerous with stacking control effects but still killable by a single player.

Seems simple enough for the changes. It is a welcome change to play as your character but from what I'm reading the lower levels might nee a bit more buffing up or the higher levels made need a few stat caps or something.

I really enjoyed the fact that illusions and growth/shrink items work while playing as your self so it is very roleplayer friendly. I would like to see more rewards for all playstyles though like better end game items for adventuring and more housing items for decorators such as alternative ways to get building blocks.

Hopefully I can try and get a lower level in or 2 and see how the dungeons run then.

[Granfather]

I have to say this by why is playing as your own toon been made so overyly complicated?.

one Salution: have all player mentor up or down to a nurtal point 50 or example. (

OR allowing players to mentor up when grouped with other player's, while not new, would fit perfact with the DM and not over poer rest of normal play.

Op 3 KEEP IT SIMPLE: Screw lev agnostic Dungens and have MOBS  scale to advage Level of party with a veriens of maybe 1-5 levels

[feldon30]

Granfather wrote:

I have to say this by why is playing as your own toon been made so overyly complicated?.

one Salution: have all player mentor up or down to a nurtal point 50 or example. (

OR allowing players to mentor up when grouped with other player's, while not new, would fit perfact with the DM and not over poer rest of normal play.

Have you tried the mentoring feature in EQ2?

Level 92 mentored down to 50 vs. a natural 50 is like comparing T2-era Arnold Schwartzenegger with Justin Beiber.

Granfather wrote:

Op 3 KEEP IT SIMPLE: Screw lev agnostic Dungens and have MOBS  scale to advage Level of party with a veriens of maybe 1-5 levels

Take the average of a level 92 player and a level 30 player and balance content around that. Um... no.

Also, the whole point of Level Agnostic Play is to make something good enough to roll out to Battlegrounds. Two birds with one stone sorta thing.

[Crothos]

feldon30 wrote:

Granfather wrote:

I have to say this by why is playing as your own toon been made so overyly complicated?.

one Salution: have all player mentor up or down to a nurtal point 50 or example. (

OR allowing players to mentor up when grouped with other player's, while not new, would fit perfact with the DM and not over poer rest of normal play.

Have you tried the mentoring feature in EQ2?

Level 92 mentored down to 50 vs. a natural 50 is like comparing T2-era Arnold Schwartzenegger with Justin Beiber.

Non-mentoring players can sing in SOEmote?! 

[Bronstahd]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the feedback, it's incredibly helpful. EQ2 is so complex that there's no real way we could test every class/level/aa/gear combination so getting your help in testing as many as possible is very much appreciated.

That being said, it looks like we have some drastic problems around level 20-40 and with the DM Avatars, specifically that things are way, way, way too hard. Just wanted to hop in quick and let you know that we heard you and that you should expect changes to those first (and soon)!

Thanks again!

-bron

[Azigon]

Bronstahd wrote:

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the feedback, it's incredibly helpful. EQ2 is so complex that there's no real way we could test every class/level/aa/gear combination so getting your help in testing as many as possible is very much appreciated.

That being said, it looks like we have some drastic problems around level 20-40 and with the DM Avatars, specifically that things are way, way, way too hard. Just wanted to hop in quick and let you know that we heard you and that you should expect changes to those first (and soon)!

Thanks again!

-bron

Glad to hear the feedback is being taken into consideration.There's only one more tuesday left after tomorrow... is it safe to say that this feature won't be going in this week?

Also I am going to hop on test when the update is pushed there. I'll provide feedback with a DM avatar and a 20 poorly geared monk if you want those results.

[Maevianiu]

Thanks for all the feedback! We did some internal playtesting on this so I'm combining my notes. Here is what I have so far, please feel free to comment on any and all of these:

We will turn off mentoring in the dungeon maker dungeons. Along with the pop up you get when you are entering a dungeon as a level 92 while grouped with your level 30 friend.

Spell effects with % based effects (such as % based heals) will be fixed in level agnostic situations.

Fix the bug with the popup to join your play as self friend in a dungeon.

Could I get more details on those who had problems with pets breaking encounters? I could not reproduce it myself.

Level 30s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

No more gear damage for dying! And no res effects!

Level 21s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Someone reported level 94 and 96 monsters conning white. What power up items were used to do this? I think I need to fix those items.

Mercs will be usable in dungeons but they will raise the difficulty just like another player would.

Level 54s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

What would you guys like to see to solve the long down time between fights problem? I cannot make the monsters easier in this case as you guys will just put more into your dungeon until you get to the get down to 20% health after every fight case. Should we even do something for this?

What would you say is the "norm" for current dungeons? The triple stack monsters? We should make it that fighting 3 monsters solo is the ideal case for dungeon maker dungeons? This is to address the "current dungeons will be too hard" issue.

Level 22s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Level 50s (including avatars) will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Do you think the Avatars need a bit of a buff?

Level 24s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

[lebrasier]

Maevianiu wrote:

What would you guys like to see to solve the long down time between fights problem? I cannot make the monsters easier in this case as you guys will just put more into your dungeon until you get to the get down to 20% health after every fight case. Should we even do something for this?

Perhaps one of the following:

- Add a zonewide buff which increases out of combat health and power regeneration, where the amounts differ depending on the real level of your character.

- Add a zonewide buff which increases the out of combat health and power regeneration amounts of equipped food and drink by a fixed percentage.

[Cyliena]

Maevianiu wrote:

Someone reported level 94 and 96 monsters conning white. What power up items were used to do this? I think I need to fix those items.

*blinks* ....

Cyliena wrote:

• Elite and boss mobs, despite being levels 94 and 96, still conned white for some reason.

No power-up items were used--it'd be impossible to get a mob to 94 or 96 with a power-up item. Elite mobs are +2 level, boss mobs are +4 level. That's what I was speaking of. If you make those mobs 92 also, then by default they would just become normal mobs and not special, which kinda defeats the purpose. Not sure what you could do there but their /con is definitely messed up, imo.. they shouldn't be showing as white.

I've noticed that using a level increaser effect on any mob does make that mob yellow, but does not actually increase their numerical level.

Maevianiu wrote:

Level 30s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Level 21s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Level 54s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Level 22s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Level 50s (including avatars) will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Level 24s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Just curious.... why are so many specific levels mentioned? Seems... odd.

Maevianiu wrote:

Could I get more details on those who had problems with pets breaking encounters? I could not reproduce it myself.

Do you think the Avatars need a bit of a buff?

I'll login in a bit here and test these both with my BL and my char that has a lot of avatars... though my opinions on avatars could be off as I'm assuming your "avatars will not get hit so hard by DM monsters" fix has not pushed to Test yet.

Maevianiu wrote:

Fix the bug with the popup to join your play as self friend in a dungeon.

No more gear damage for dying! And no res effects!

Mercs will be usable in dungeons but they will raise the difficulty just like another player would.

Thank you, thank you (could the exp debt also be removed please?), and thank you again.

Maevianiu wrote:

What would you guys like to see to solve the long down time between fights problem? I cannot make the monsters easier in this case as you guys will just put more into your dungeon until you get to the get down to 20% health after every fight case. Should we even do something for this?

Boost out-of-combat health/power regen in dungeons. Avatars have heightened regen so make players have it too in a DM environment. That way people are jumping back into the action quicker, which I think everyone would prefer.

Maevianiu wrote:

What would you say is the "norm" for current dungeons? The triple stack monsters? We should make it that fighting 3 monsters solo is the ideal case for dungeon maker dungeons? This is to address the "current dungeons will be too hard" issue.

Every well-done dungeon I have run has had at least 2-4 mobs grouped wherever spawners are placed (3 is most likely, though) and a lot of the time has at least one effect object going per room, if not more. If a dungeon only has a bunch of single mobs then it's a snooze-fest. I'm sure you guys can pop onto live servers and choose any number of non-grind Hall of Fame dungeons to get actual statistics for this.

[Azigon]

Maevianiu wrote:

Thanks for all the feedback! We did some internal playtesting on this so I'm combining my notes. Here is what I have so far, please feel free to comment on any and all of these:

We will turn off mentoring in the dungeon maker dungeons. Along with the pop up you get when you are entering a dungeon as a level 92 while grouped with your level 30 friend.

This is an excellent, needed change. Less confusion for the player(s).

Spell effects with % based effects (such as % based heals) will be fixed in level agnostic situations.

I haven't tried these myself... but I assume the fix worked. Does this include % chance to hit, %potency/%critbonus buffs?

Fix the bug with the popup to join your play as self friend in a dungeon.

I was only solo testing so no comment.

Could I get more details on those who had problems with pets breaking encounters? I could not reproduce it myself.

I will try and break encounters with a pet on my ranger. I have a feeling it may be dumbfire pets, although I have no way of testing at the moment.

Level 30s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

I copied a level 20 and level 30 over, I will post pre-patch and post patch results.

No more gear damage for dying! And no res effects!

This makes the dungeons in line with the avatars... it makes exp debt the only thing preventing you from zerging them.

Level 21s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

See above on the 20 and 30 I copied over.

Someone reported level 94 and 96 monsters conning white. What power up items were used to do this? I think I need to fix those items.

I have all the station cash ones on my ranger I copied over, I will try various combinations and post results.

Mercs will be usable in dungeons but they will raise the difficulty just like another player would.

I tried a mercenary and they seemed to get hit more harder than players. Perhaps looking into that would be in order?

Level 54s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Haven't tried a 50's character, let alone 54. Maybe a beta buffer on test copy is needed that allows you to select levels?

What would you guys like to see to solve the long down time between fights problem? I cannot make the monsters easier in this case as you guys will just put more into your dungeon until you get to the get down to 20% health after every fight case. Should we even do something for this?

I would like to see out of combat regen while in-combat while in a dungeon maker zone. This allows for the zones to still retain their difficulty (aka you can't overpull) but allows for non-stop clearing as you will be constantly regenerating HP/Power while in combat, thus never missing a tick of power.

This eliminates downtime by making what you do during downtime happen in combat. This could probably work best on avatars that do not rely on power-generating combat as well.

Heck, I think it would actually solve the disparity between players and avatars if enabled as avatars' main issue, in my opinion, is they run out of HP *or* power too fast. In the case of players, this isn't a big of an issue as you have many skills that replenish both power and health, so adding that in would not imbalance players too much, only reduce solo or solo-with-merc players' downtime. (or groups without a healer/enchanter/bard)

What would you say is the "norm" for current dungeons? The triple stack monsters? We should make it that fighting 3 monsters solo is the ideal case for dungeon maker dungeons? This is to address the "current dungeons will be too hard" issue.

The norm for current dungeons varies on what kind of avatar you have, in current dungeons. Typically, yes, 3 solo, non-downtiered, non-deleveled NPCs is the 'limit' for killing as an avatar in *SOLO* play. You can do more with a decent group of avatars. Typically, the rule of thumb is for every 2 avatar added afterwards, add 2 more NPCs. That will result in an ideal challenge as HP on dungeon maker mobs is rather low for avatar play.

Back to the subject of playing as yourself, I ran through as a 92/320 raid geared character and had little issues but was not one-shotting the NPCs with combat arts, only auto attacks. That's to be expected, that's what my character does to the skyshrine solo instances and to be honest it can stay that way.

However, If we were to add more players to the instance that were lower level, the difficulty would go up but the damage output would not stay the same consistantly.

This is where an issue lies; a lower level player should not be useless in dungeon maker zones compared to a higher level. A lower level player will also be constantly upgrading gear where the 92 is not going to be upgrading gear at all.

Though, If you were to run dungeons from 20-40, you should have a decent amount of gear from the /marketplace dungeon maker section, so that may be a non-issue. They should also be able to upgrade their spells via the research reductions. A suggestion would be giving people 1,000 dungeon mark sets of armor (or 250 marks individually) for each 10 levels until 80, along with journeyman (or adept) spells purchaseable for dungeon marks so players are not completely nerfeded while running dungeons compared to a 92. There's some dungeon maker armor, sure, but not entire sets.

Level 22s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

No comment. Haven't ran on a 22.

Level 50s (including avatars) will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

No comment. Haven't ran on a level 50.

Do you think the Avatars need a bit of a buff?

Compared to players? Absolutely. I don't want this to be introduced and then avatar play have no purpose as running it as yourself would be better. I think avatar play should still be viable. It is more efficient at 92 to run as yourself than it is an avatar. That's for sure. I would reccomend increasing the damage output on the avatars. Their HP is fine, it allows for a challenge without allowing overboard pulls. Their damage output could use a huge buff, i'd say maybe a 25-35% buff in damage would put them in line with players. The main thing I hate about avatar play is I don't put out enough damage most of the time and I end up revive-zerging NPCs to even kill them, especially in group play, and that's just not fun.

In a future update, possibly even making it so players and avatars could co-exist in dungeon maker would be a great idea. This would solve the issue of level 20-40 players being nerfed as stated above in a prior question. They could play as themselves if they feel up to the challenge and have adequate gear, of course.

Level 24s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

No comment. Haven't ran on a 22.

That's my feedback on these responses. I'd like constructive criticism on my feedback and would love to hear plausible ideas.

[Azigon]

Second pass:

20 undergeared bruiser did better than a 90 undergeared bard. I think avoidance gives WAYY too much of an advantage in this dungeon. The 20 undergeared bruiser got hit hard when hit, but avoided a lot of the attacks. I'm gonna get act up so you can see actual numbers, but I think avoidance is playing far too much versus mitigation for people.

Something to note, the 90 undergeared bard was in SF gear, the undergeared bruiser was in quested level 10 gear.

Also, something to take into consideration... there is an aa gap at 90 <-> 91. Perhaps 90 and lower characters should scale differently than 91 and 92?

[Cyliena]

Zaigno@Nagafen wrote:

Something to note, the 90 undergeared bard was in SF gear, the undergeared bruiser was in quested level 10 gear.

Also, something to take into consideration... there is an aa gap at 90 <-> 91. Perhaps 90 and lower characters should scale differently than 91 and 92?

Here's a link to the bard in question: http://u.eq2wire.com/soe/character_...il/476742224063

Overall I just couldn't tank anything, they tore me up. I'm not severely under-AA'd, I'm at 255. I am wearing decent gear for a character that's never set foot in DoV content (the one DoV item I have is from my main passing on an heirloom dagger from WL she didn't need). Here's a log from one of the fights (this was just a *single* unbuffed mob), the level 20 monk jumped in halfway through, which was good since I probably wouldn't have survived otherwise:

(1340113243)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:43 2012] Logging to 'logs/Test Copy/eq2log_Trimia.txt' is now *ON*(1340113247)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:47 2012] You start fighting.(1340113248)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:48 2012] YOUR Singing Shot critically hits an infected rat for 2888 mental damage.(1340113248)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:48 2012] YOUR Singing Shot critically hits an infected rat for 2037 mental damage.(1340113248)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:48 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 10073 crushing damage.(1340113248)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:48 2012] YOUR Intoxicating Notes critically hits an infected rat for 2591 magic damage.(1340113248)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:48 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 8693 crushing damage.(1340113249)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:49 2012] an infected rat hits YOU for 1038 crushing damage.(1340113250)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:50 2012] YOUR Ceremonial Blade critically hits an infected rat for 2667 mental damage.(1340113250)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:50 2012] YOUR Ceremonial Blade critically hits an infected rat for 2144 mental damage.(1340113251)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:51 2012] an infected rat tries to crush YOU, but misses.(1340113252)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:52 2012] an infected rat tries to crush YOU, but misses.(1340113252)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:52 2012] YOUR Perfect Shrill critically hits an infected rat for 8380 mental damage.(1340113253)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:53 2012] YOUR Sandra's Deafening Strike critically hits an infected rat for 2986 mental damage.(1340113253)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:53 2012] YOUR Sandra's Deafening Strike confounds an infected rat draining 1 2024 mental of power.(1340113253)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:53 2012] YOUR Sandra's Deafening Strike critically refreshes YOU for 340 mana points.(1340113253)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:53 2012] an infected rat hits YOU for 1393 crushing damage.(1340113253)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:53 2012] YOU try to slash an infected rat, but miss.(1340113253)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:53 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 4901 slashing damage.(1340113253)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:53 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 3816 piercing damage.(1340113253)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:53 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 2662 piercing damage.(1340113254)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:54 2012] YOUR Vexing Verses critically hits an infected rat for 1203 magic damage.(1340113254)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:54 2012] an infected rat hits YOU for 1187 crushing damage.(1340113255)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:55 2012] an infected rat hits YOU for 1573 crushing damage.(1340113257)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:57 2012] an infected rat tries to crush YOU, but misses.(1340113257)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:57 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 2739 slashing damage.(1340113257)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:57 2012] YOUR Intoxicating Notes critically hits an infected rat for 2683 magic damage.(1340113257)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:57 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 3698 slashing damage.(1340113257)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:57 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 3089 piercing damage.(1340113257)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:57 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 4419 piercing damage.(1340113258)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:58 2012] an infected rat tries to crush YOU, but misses.(1340113258)[Tue Jun 19 09:40:58 2012] YOUR Precise Note critically hits an infected rat for 2140 mental damage.(1340113260)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:00 2012] YOUR Dancing Blade critically hits an infected rat for 4630 slashing damage.(1340113261)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:01 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 2739 slashing damage.(1340113261)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:01 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 4240 slashing damage.(1340113261)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:01 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 2551 piercing damage.(1340113261)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:01 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 2551 piercing damage.(1340113262)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:02 2012] Leggz hits an infected rat for 44262 crushing damage.(1340113262)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:02 2012] Leggz hits an infected rat for 14207 crushing damage.(1340113262)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:02 2012] YOUR Precise Note critically hits an infected rat for 2433 mental damage.(1340113262)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:02 2012] YOUR Chaos Anthem critically hits an infected rat for 1340 mental damage.(1340113263)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:03 2012] YOUR Rhythm Blade critically hits an infected rat for 3340 slashing damage.(1340113264)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:04 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 2979 slashing damage.(1340113264)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:04 2012] YOUR Ykeshan Obliteration Smite hits an infected rat for 2299 magic damage.(1340113264)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:04 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 2739 slashing damage.(1340113264)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:04 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 2551 piercing damage.(1340113264)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:04 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 3396 piercing damage.(1340113265)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:05 2012] YOUR Round Bash critically hits an infected rat for 2816 crushing damage.(1340113265)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:05 2012] Leggz hits an infected rat for 35245 crushing damage.(1340113267)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:07 2012] YOUR Vexing Verses critically hits an infected rat for 1695 magic damage.(1340113267)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:07 2012] YOUR Precise Note critically hits an infected rat for 2637 mental damage.(1340113267)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:07 2012] an infected rat tries to crush YOU, but misses.(1340113267)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:07 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 3446 slashing damage.(1340113267)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:07 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 2739 slashing damage.(1340113267)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:07 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 3834 piercing damage.(1340113267)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:07 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 2551 piercing damage.(1340113268)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:08 2012] YOUR Perfect Shrill critically hits an infected rat for 13655 mental damage.(1340113268)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:08 2012] YOUR Precise Note critically hits an infected rat for 2699 mental damage.(1340113268)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:08 2012] an infected rat hits YOU for 1465 crushing damage.(1340113268)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:08 2012] YOUR Chaos Anthem critically hits an infected rat for 1095 mental damage.(1340113268)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:08 2012] Leggz hits an infected rat for 11202 crushing damage.(1340113268)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:08 2012] Leggz's Bloodletting hits an infected rat for 13391 poison damage.(1340113268)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:08 2012] Leggz tries to crush an infected rat, but an infected rat parries.(1340113270)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:10 2012] YOUR Sandra's Deafening Strike critically hits an infected rat for 3383 mental damage.(1340113270)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:10 2012] YOUR Sandra's Deafening Strike confounds an infected rat draining 1 2888 mental of power.(1340113270)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:10 2012] YOUR Sandra's Deafening Strike critically refreshes YOU for 499 mana points.(1340113270)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:10 2012] an infected rat's Rupture hits YOU for 480 crushing damage.(1340113270)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:10 2012] You are struck with a well executed attack.(1340113270)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:10 2012] YOUR Vexing Verses confounds an infected rat draining 1 117 mental of power.(1340113270)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:10 2012] YOUR Vexing Verses critically hits an infected rat for 622 mental damage.(1340113270)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:10 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 2803 slashing damage.(1340113270)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:10 2012] YOUR Intoxicating Notes critically hits an infected rat for 3118 magic damage.(1340113270)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:10 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 3318 slashing damage.(1340113270)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:10 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 2551 piercing damage.(1340113271)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:11 2012] an infected rat tries to crush YOU, but misses.(1340113271)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:11 2012] YOUR Ceremonial Blade critically hits an infected rat for 3285 mental damage.(1340113271)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:11 2012] YOUR Ceremonial Blade critically hits an infected rat for 2713 mental damage.(1340113272)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:12 2012] an infected rat hits YOU for 1234 crushing damage.(1340113272)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:12 2012] Leggz hits an infected rat for 42622 crushing damage.(1340113272)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:12 2012] Leggz tries to crush an infected rat, but misses.(1340113273)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:13 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 2739 slashing damage.(1340113273)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:13 2012] YOUR Intoxicating Notes critically hits an infected rat for 2602 magic damage.(1340113273)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:13 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 4514 slashing damage.(1340113273)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:13 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 2551 piercing damage.(1340113273)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:13 2012] YOU critically multi attack an infected rat for 2551 piercing damage.(1340113273)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:13 2012] an infected rat hits YOU for 1070 crushing damage.(1340113274)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:14 2012] an infected rat hits YOU for 1492 crushing damage.(1340113275)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:15 2012] YOUR Chaos Anthem critically hits an infected rat for 983 mental damage.(1340113275)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:15 2012] YOU critically hit an infected rat for 4514 slashing damage.(1340113275)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:15 2012] You stop fighting.(1340113275)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:15 2012] You have killed an infected rat in The Test Copy Arena (23.52, -1.31, 14.42).(1340113275)[Tue Jun 19 09:41:15 2012] You earned 246 experience to be collected upon completion.

After adding it all together, the rat did 9,698 damage to that character, in a fight where I had a group member participating (ergo, it went faster). I have 19k health total on that character. That was just one mob. I'd probably die to two.

The simple fact is that these dungeons will not be balanced for everyone. Chances are that a lot of the frequent users of them are going to be lower level toons. I really don't foresee extremely well-geared players having any desire to run these unless they want tokens to get some items from the DM store. These dungeons should be tuned to a F2P player who does not own the DoV expansion and has not used unlockers on legendary/fabled gear... which would be a player in Mastercrafted. Or even tune it toward the assumption that the player has, at the least, used unlockers for Legendary solo quest gear. Yes, it will be too easy for people in very high-end group and raid gear (and already is), but there's no avoiding that without making it impossible for everyone else to do.

In short: Lower damage output overall for all levels, up regen. Otherwise you can likely count "play as self" as a dead-on-arrival feature, which I'd really rather not see happen.

[Whilhelmina]

I'll run my tests in my own dungeon, Domino' Sanctuary is under attack, on Test Server.I made the dungeon so it could be finished with the Nightblood Reaver or Duljam with a single death on the boss (Tallonite expedition leader in the altar room).Groups are made of 3 single mobs, 1 elite/2 mobs, with 1 additional mob per group and buffs near the end, mostly in the part that's not supposed to be killed (staircases up after the dining room).Time taken in the dungeon is supposed to be 10 minutes to exit door in straight line, 50 to 60 minutes to clear it solo. Leucosia from Test Server level 92 conjuror, 280AA Dungeon: Domino's sanctuary is under attackGear: WL quested/droped gear, expert/master spellshttp://u.eq2wire.com/soe/character_...il/429497050028Overall: Took me 19 minutes and 3 death to reach the exit in straight line (not going to the bedroom).For whatever reason, none of the heroic is showing yellow, they're all even con.Tallonite expedition leader and High priest of Domino are Tier up but don't show as yellow, despite the High Priest being 96+ for example.My tank pet is DEFINATEDLY NOT assisting me. I took the aggro every single time, mostly when healing my pet. When a mob is on me, pet doesn't switch to aggor it. using my magic leash and arcane bewilderment often didn't help. I have Symbiosis and mininon's intent up.It took me 50 minutes to reach the sanctuary room (the one on the screenshot in DM window) , bypassing the 3 side rooms (bedroom, kitchen and storage room=, so it's definatedly way longer to play as self. I died 6 times in the trip, mostly due to aggro loss. I never pulled several encounters at once.

Encounters

Fist encounter (diaku expedition officer, 94+ with 2 orcs) is WAY harder than intended. Every encounter is harder than intended.Tallonite expedition leader was more or less as hard as usual.Encounters using only regular mobs (and not elite/bosses) are way harder than encounters using elite or bosses.High Priest of Domino (last room, in Domino's sanctuary proper) was probably the easier mob in the zone despite being a boss with several buffs and a tier up.I found that it was definatedly not fun. 50 minutes for 2/3 of the dungeon and for 87 tokens? yuck. That is with oneshoting troublesome mobs with elemental blast all the time.******************************************Yseult from Test Server level 49 paladin, 100AA spentDungeon: Domino's sanctuary is under attackGear: level 40 handcrafted gear, apprentice spells with a couple researched masters (mostly heals)http://u.eq2wire.com/soe/character_...il/429497108528FIRST ROOM (lesser vigor)First encounter (diaku expedition officer, 94+ with 2 orcs): O finally managed to kill the 2 orcs without dying first, casting Lay on Hands... Mobsare hitting like big hangry trucks. Died and killed the elite after regen.Second encounter, I went for the sprites to the left. Killed 2 of them before dying.Third encounter, managed to kill the naiad in the water (boss) + 2 butterflies without dying but with lay on hands and chain healing myself.4th encounter: 2 custodians and a hart of love. Died twice without being able to kill a single custodian. Gave up and went fot the hart first which worked.5th encounter: first group of 3 orcs at the entrance. Didn't wait for lay on hands. Warded myself, managed to kill one orc before dying. Went back to finish up the 2 others.CORRIDOR and SECOND ROOM (no buff)6th encounter, 4 orcs in the corridor. Managed to kill 3 of them before dying (lay on hands, temp buffs, every heal used and so on, as usual)7th encounter (djinn, burynai and erudite templar): close call but was doable.8th encounter (cornered worshipers to the left): same as above9th encounter (orcs in the back of the room): middle orc first, a troubadour. Died quickly without being able to kill him. At that point, all my equipement was broken, I had 5% of debt, had spent nearly half an hour in the **** place, was fed up to death and gave up.

Overall: WAY too hard. Giving up out of frustration is not a good indication of the fun factor of the change.

[Cyliena]

Cyliena wrote:

Maevianiu wrote:

Level 30s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Level 21s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Level 54s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Level 22s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Level 50s (including avatars) will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Level 24s will not get hit so hard by DM monsters.

Just curious.... why are so many specific levels mentioned? Seems... odd.

Maevianiu wrote:

Could I get more details on those who had problems with pets breaking encounters? I could not reproduce it myself.

Do you think the Avatars need a bit of a buff?

I'll login in a bit here and test these both with my BL and my char that has a lot of avatars... though my opinions on avatars could be off as I'm assuming your "avatars will not get hit so hard by DM monsters" fix has not pushed to Test yet.

First off, I'm holding back my opinion of what avatars may need for now until the changes Maevianiu mentioned are pushed to test.

I copied my level 42 Beastlord over (65 AA, equipped so-so for a 40s toon, profile is here). To go back to the first quote above--I'm not sure why only select levels are being mentioned for not getting hit as hard. My level 42, while she could dish out crazy damage, did get hit ridiculously hard (400-600 damage per hit from an unbuffed mob). Don't just band-aid some random levels mentioned here or that you've tested, fix the issue overall.

My warder did not once cause me to see a message about breaking encounters. It's possible that the problem lies with dumbfire pets, so hopefully someone else can try that out.

If you're messing with avatars again, this is still an outstanding issue that's been reported before in-game and on forums:

Cyliena wrote:

Erollisi Day avatars: These avatars still have VERY wrong power costs for their abilities. The abilities are costing as much power as they would on an avatar that builds power, but these avatars do not build power. Please fix this--it makes the avatars virtually useless.

Sister Aalarya: Ardor is fine; Earnestness of Heart and Vital Force cost 1110 and Crashing Warmth costs 821.

Sister Leela Prendyn: Hastened Conviction is fine; Fever of Ferver costs 1110 and Ardency and Strike of Devotion both cost 821.

Sister Thog MacGilly: Touch of Soul is fine; Temperment of Battle and Benevolence of Erollisi cost 1110 and Rage of Compassion costs 821.

Sister Katey Dalwynn: Wrath of Endearment and Salvation of Heart are fine; Healing Light costs 1110 and Will of Erollisi costs 821.

These avatars must've been modified in the original attempt to change all avatars to the building power style, but they were supposed to revert back to their normal state when it was decided to just release new avatars for that. Please put them back to normal, I miss using them!

[Whilhelmina]

Maevianiu wrote:

Someone reported level 94 and 96 monsters conning white. What power up items were used to do this? I think I need to fix those items.

Tier up on some, but not a single elite or boss in my dungeon conned yellow, and there's elite mostly everywhere.The tier up (single) are coupled with lesser vigor or arcane (room-wide).

[Calthine]

removed for null content.

[Neiloch]

lebrasier wrote:

Maevianiu wrote:

What would you guys like to see to solve the long down time between fights problem? I cannot make the monsters easier in this case as you guys will just put more into your dungeon until you get to the get down to 20% health after every fight case. Should we even do something for this?

Perhaps one of the following:

- Add a zonewide buff which increases out of combat health and power regeneration, where the amounts differ depending on the real level of your character.

- Add a zonewide buff which increases the out of combat health and power regeneration amounts of equipped food and drink by a fixed percentage.

This is basically what I was about to post until I saw it posted already hehe.

Perhaps you can make out of combat regens percentage based instead of the current 'value' base?

[Maevianiu]

Cyliena,

The reason for the specific levels is that level agnostic is tuned to a per-level basis. So each level has its own difficulty dial.

In the end, level agnostic is just a power check for your level. So if you are really well geared and AAed out for your level you will be very powerful in a level agnostic situation. If you are undergeared/AAed then you will have a harder time.

Everyone,

Be sure to watch the update notes on the next test server update for what changes we got in.

[Maevianiu]

I also saw some people posting about how lower level characters are hitting really hard. When scaling say a level 20, up to a 92 monster he needs to do comparable total damage per combat round to a level 92 character. A 92 character has multi attack, flurry, procs etc which all result in a spam of combat hits that total up to a large number. The level 20 doesn't have any of that so it will make his single hit, do damage closer to the total of all the spam the 92 does.

Granted, a 92 will still be more powerful than a scaled up 20 in a level agnostic situation. That level 92 spent more time on her character and she will have more abilities, more AAs, more stats etc. The goal is to make the 20 maintain a level of challenge but still be able to play with the higher level character. It is going to take a lot of testing and tuning to find that sweet spot where it is fun for all players involved. We don't want it to be like mentoring where the high level trivializes the content for the low level and the low level does not feel like she is participating, but at the same time not too difficult that it becomes frustrating for the low level.

[Cyliena]

Maevianiu wrote:

Cyliena,

The reason for the specific levels is that level agnostic is tuned to a per-level basis. So each level has its own difficulty dial.

In the end, level agnostic is just a power check for your level. So if you are really well geared and AAed out for your level you will be very powerful in a level agnostic situation. If you are undergeared/AAed then you will have a harder time.

Everyone,

Be sure to watch the update notes on the next test server update for what changes we got in.

Okay, that's fine. Here's the interesting thing about how this ends up working though:

On Live: A boss is level 54 and yellow to a level 50 avatar.On Test: A boss is level 96 and white to everyone.

On Live: A level increase effect object is applied to that boss, making it orange.On Test: A level increase effect object is applied to that boss, making it yellow.

Working as intended there? If it is, then just disregard.

As to the "power check" situation: We all know that you guys have an internal gear score system. Why not use that to determine how level agnostic works against the character, rather than assuming that (for example) a level 90-92 will be decked out in WL/Skyshrine gear?

[Maevianiu]

Whilhelmina@Storms wrote:

Maevianiu wrote:

Someone reported level 94 and 96 monsters conning white. What power up items were used to do this? I think I need to fix those items.

Tier up on some, but not a single elite or boss in my dungeon conned yellow, and there's elite mostly everywhere.The tier up (single) are coupled with lesser vigor or arcane (room-wide).

We found the problem with the Boss and Elite monsters and it is getting fixed! Thanks!

[Azigon]

Maevianiu wrote:

I also saw some people posting about how lower level characters are hitting really hard. When scaling say a level 20, up to a 92 monster he needs to do comparable total damage per combat round to a level 92 character. A 92 character has multi attack, flurry, procs etc which all result in a spam of combat hits that total up to a large number. The level 20 doesn't have any of that so it will make his single hit, do damage closer to the total of all the spam the 92 does.

Granted, a 92 will still be more powerful than a scaled up 20 in a level agnostic situation. That level 92 spent more time on her character and she will have more abilities, more AAs, more stats etc. The goal is to make the 20 maintain a level of challenge but still be able to play with the higher level character. It is going to take a lot of testing and tuning to find that sweet spot where it is fun for all players involved. We don't want it to be like mentoring where the high level trivializes the content for the low level and the low level does not feel like she is participating, but at the same time not too difficult that it becomes frustrating for the low level.

This is actually what I thought you guys were trying to do.

Also,

"We don't want it to be like mentoring where the high level trivializes the content for the low level and the low level does not feel like she is participating, but at the same time not too difficult that it becomes frustrating for the low level."

A Skyshrine/Drunder-level raid geared 92/320 character with an undergeared 20 makes the undergeared 20 feel like they aren't doing much. That being said, it's to be expected as the 92/320 invested more time and thus should feel more powerful.

"The goal is to make the 20 maintain a level of challenge but still be able to play with the higher level character."

and

"The level 20 doesn't have any of that so it will make his single hit, do damage closer to the total of all the spam the 92 does."

Currently, this is happening on the player's outgoing damage scale of things. The player's defenses are far too weak in comparison. I will report back when I have tested with the new test server changes, but currently (as of the original post's date) that is what is happening the most. When we did an undergeared 90 character in a group scenario with a 92, the damage output from the 90 was acceptable but the defenses were lacking. That's probably due to gear expectations of a 90 character being out of whack. I'll refrain from posting more comment on defenses until I see the next update pushed to the test server.

[Maevianiu]

Cyliena wrote:

Maevianiu wrote:

Cyliena,

The reason for the specific levels is that level agnostic is tuned to a per-level basis. So each level has its own difficulty dial.

In the end, level agnostic is just a power check for your level. So if you are really well geared and AAed out for your level you will be very powerful in a level agnostic situation. If you are undergeared/AAed then you will have a harder time.

Everyone,

Be sure to watch the update notes on the next test server update for what changes we got in.

Okay, that's fine. Here's the interesting thing about how this ends up working though:

On Live: A boss is level 54 and yellow to a level 50 avatar.On Test: A boss is level 96 and white to everyone.

On Live: A level increase effect object is applied to that boss, making it orange.On Test: A level increase effect object is applied to that boss, making it yellow.

Working as intended there? If it is, then just disregard.

As to the "power check" situation: We all know that you guys have an internal gear score system. Why not use that to determine how level agnostic works against the character, rather than assuming that (for example) a level 90-92 will be decked out in WL/Skyshrine gear?

For the first thing about the bosses, that is a bug and we just found a fix. Check for it with the next update.

As for the power check, we do use the gear score of the player but it needs tuning. The feedback in this thread has been hugely helpful. Examples that include character/server names are really helpful as we can lookup the character and see the stats/scores etc to help tune it better.

[Azigon]

Maevianiu wrote:

Cyliena wrote:

Maevianiu wrote:

Cyliena,

The reason for the specific levels is that level agnostic is tuned to a per-level basis. So each level has its own difficulty dial.

In the end, level agnostic is just a power check for your level. So if you are really well geared and AAed out for your level you will be very powerful in a level agnostic situation. If you are undergeared/AAed then you will have a harder time.

Everyone,

Be sure to watch the update notes on the next test server update for what changes we got in.

Okay, that's fine. Here's the interesting thing about how this ends up working though:

On Live: A boss is level 54 and yellow to a level 50 avatar.On Test: A boss is level 96 and white to everyone.

On Live: A level increase effect object is applied to that boss, making it orange.On Test: A level increase effect object is applied to that boss, making it yellow.

Working as intended there? If it is, then just disregard.

As to the "power check" situation: We all know that you guys have an internal gear score system. Why not use that to determine how level agnostic works against the character, rather than assuming that (for example) a level 90-92 will be decked out in WL/Skyshrine gear?

For the first thing about the bosses, that is a bug and we just found a fix. Check for it with the next update.

As for the power check, we do use the gear score of the player but it needs tuning. The feedback in this thread has been hugely helpful. Examples that include character/server names are really helpful as we can lookup the character and see the stats/scores etc to help tune it better.

Parsli on Test Copy/Nagafen should show my gear (92/320 Ranger in my examples). I have the datafeeds disabled on my character.

http://u.eq2wire.com/soe/character_...il/476742224063

That is the undergeared 90 bard prior mentioned by Cyliena.

http://u.eq2wire.com/soe/character_...l/2168961788089

That is the undergeared 20 Monk listed prior in my feedback.

[Cyliena]

Maevianiu wrote:

As for the power check, we do use the gear score of the player but it needs tuning. The feedback in this thread has been hugely helpful. Examples that include character/server names are really helpful as we can lookup the character and see the stats/scores etc to help tune it better.

Trimia: Everfrost

[Whilhelmina]

Thanks for the updates and explaining a bit the mechanics. I'll check once more when the patches are on Test, for now it's just frustrating hehe, but I wanted to test "how it was" first, to be able to see the changes.

I'll probably only test on test proper though. I've added the EQ2U links to my chars, just in case.