Brigand - Amazing Reflexes Nerf

[Ki]

BrigandAmazing reflexes can no longer have its trigger percentage modified unless specified explicitly.

I'm completely lost as to why this is necessary.  The original ability has been nerfed down to the point of being unreliable - even with Master I, max AAs and Luck of the Dirge you still couldn't rely on it to proc enough to avoid every AE - if you were skillful and lucky you could avoid most of them - isn't that the point?  The skillful and lucky should be able to maximize this ability.  This nerf just makes it so that the skillful won't bother as they generally can't get lucky enough - especially with almost every epic having consume soul. Honestly I don't understand the point of an ability that's raiding specific that raiders can't rely upon - we are all going to be back to jousting with everyone else.  Does this ability really unbalance the game - make it so that encounters are way easier because one or two brigands - if the raid is setup well, they play really well and are lucky - can avoid a few AEs? My suggestion is that the devs rethink this decision.  I would recommend one of two courses of action:1>  Forget the nerf - leave the ability alone.2>  If they really think it's overpowered and the game can't survive with it cause it's unbalancing to the game, just remove it and either give us another debuff, ranged attack or AE or something else that won't constantly get nerfed to obilivion.  This constant nerf to ancient teachings is just [Removed for Content] off the core of brigands.

[Freliant]

There was a huge thread when this skill was changed to what it was pre-rok. The end argument was: no class deserves permanent immunity to AOEs. Its something that you are just gonna have to deal with. And don't try to play with numbers, its already been decided

[Tomanak]

Freliant wrote:

There was a huge thread when this skill was changed to what it was pre-rok. The end argument was: no class deserves permanent immunity to AOEs. Its something that you are just gonna have to deal with. And don't try to play with numbers, its already been decided " width="15" height="15" />

Then as the OP suggests just get rid of it. In its present incarnation it is practically useless. I rarely if ever even bother casting it as its not reliable enough at the best of times.

[Geothe]

You know the way sony works.They nerfed AR down again, because the brigand epic will have a mod to AR which will bring it back up to where it was prior to this nerf when grouped with a class that buffed the proc chance. heh.

[Ki]

Freliant wrote:

There was a huge thread when this skill was changed to what it was pre-rok. The end argument was: no class deserves permanent immunity to AOEs. Its something that you are just gonna have to deal with. And don't try to play with numbers, its already been decided " />

How is - permanent AE immunity and you need to be both skillful and lucky to avoid most AEs currently the same thing?I'm pretty good at using AR in its current incarnation.  With Epics who run AEs - if I want to maximize DPS, time autoattacks and avoid the AE it's very very hard.  If I just want to avoid AEs that's easier - but even if that's all I decide to do, I still can't avoid every AE.Nothing is already decided - things get posted on Test to get community feedback and that's what I'm providing.  I fail to see the logic in this change and I'm questioning it - providing alternative suggestions and trying to promote healthy discussion.If you push Amazing Reflexes far enough down it becomes a completely useless ability and should just be removed from game; which, if this change goes to live - I would much prefer.

[Ki]

Geothe wrote:

You know the way sony works.They nerfed AR down again, because the brigand epic will have a mod to AR which will bring it back up to where it was prior to this nerf when grouped with a class that buffed the proc chance. heh.

Even if that were true - or that they changed the fabled gear to make AR proc more - why make it so that only a few select players can use the ability?  Why does everyone have to be a member of a top raiding guild in the game to use their standard abilities?I urge the developers to think about this decision and make it so that all raiding players can at least attempt to make use of an ability which makes their class somewhat unique.

[Bakasen]

Personally I think the ablity needs to be rethought... and by that I mean removed and replaced with something else... Back in the day it was a great bit of flavor for the class and really played up the sneaky rat aspect... No offence intened to any ratonga out there..  Anyway, in it's current incarnation I know a lot of brigands don't rely on it at all.. I'm ashamed to admit I'm either not lucky enough, or not good enough to use it properly and end up jousting with the rest already.

It's high time that this ablity be yanked out and replaced with something worth while on my hot bar.. Seriously, I throw it up but it's entirely out of habit by this point, Unless you can comepletely controll when it's going off then why bother with the ablity at all. I know it's a dead horse, and I know I'm just shouting into the wind, but a nerf on an already nearly useless ablity makes for an even more worthless ablity.

Just yank it and make room for something that does something.

[Morrias]

Freliant wrote:

There was a huge thread when this skill was changed to what it was pre-rok. The end argument was: no class deserves permanent immunity to AOEs. Its something that you are just gonna have to deal with. And don't try to play with numbers, its already been decided

 It wasn't permanent before the nerf, even the most skillfully briggies coulkdnt avoid EVERY AE.. unnnerfing it won't change that.. plus other options were suggested..

 As for any decision SoE makes being final/permanent, you haven't been playing all that long have you?

(Yes, I am aware how old you acount is, was more or less pointing out the fact of how much they have done after saying they wern't going too, just so I dont get yelled'd at )

[Slitsaal]

Please, just kill AR already, put it out of it's misery....

Yes it was overpowered in its first incarnation but now it is something so unreliable as to be useless.

 Just end it and give us something else useful in its place , and not another theives guild either thank you very much!

[Freliant]

You guys seriously believe that by asking for the skill to be removed you are gathering any sympathy by those who read these forums? AoE immunity is a very powerfull tool for a raider... dare I say, almost nothing will compare to have a "triggerable" immunity that you can put up aside from the bard one. That is the whole reason Counterspell was nerfed before it came into live. It gave the raid a second aoe prevention at the hands of the troub. Something tells me that AR was not meant to be a raid mandated skill, but rather something nice to have in groups. However, I know many of you will jump at those prior comments.

/agree on the comment about community feedback being the reason why in testing feedback was made, so I retract my prior statement about it being decided upon already.

Do I believe that AR should be changed to be something "usefull"? As long as the rest of the classes get a similar toggleable aoe immunity

[Geothe]

"

Do I believe that AR should be changed to be something "usefull"? As long as the rest of the classes get a similar toggleable aoe immunity " width="15" height="15" />"

You mean.

Like Bards, Druids, Swashies, and Clerics can all have?

[Expres]

Freliant wrote:

You guys seriously believe that by asking for the skill to be removed you are gathering any sympathy by those who read these forums? AoE immunity is a very powerfull tool for a raider... dare I say, almost nothing will compare to have a "triggerable" immunity that you can put up aside from the bard one. That is the whole reason Counterspell was nerfed before it came into live. It gave the raid a second aoe prevention at the hands of the troub. Something tells me that AR was not meant to be a raid mandated skill, but rather something nice to have in groups. However, I know many of you will jump at those prior comments.

/agree on the comment about community feedback being the reason why in testing feedback was made, so I retract my prior statement about it being decided upon already.

Do I believe that AR should be changed to be something "usefull"? As long as the rest of the classes get a similar toggleable aoe immunity " />

Actually, AAs introduced a "toggleable" AoE immunity to several classes.  None of them were Brigands.Brigands however had their AoE immunity changed to a small random chance.  Not "toggleable" by any means.So, since you have shown that you have little to no idea what you are talking about, maybe you should either stop, or educate yourself before offering more opinions based upon misinformation.Obviously the inclusion of a "toggleable" AoE immunity isn't considered too overpowered as many classes (but not Brigands) were given such.

[Morrias]

Freliant wrote:

You guys seriously believe that by asking for the skill to be removed you are gathering any sympathy by those who read these forums? AoE immunity is a very powerfull tool for a raider... dare I say, almost nothing will compare to have a "triggerable" immunity that you can put up aside from the bard one. That is the whole reason Counterspell was nerfed before it came into live. It gave the raid a second aoe prevention at the hands of the troub. Something tells me that AR was not meant to be a raid mandated skill, but rather something nice to have in groups. However, I know many of you will jump at those prior comments.

/agree on the comment about community feedback being the reason why in testing feedback was made, so I retract my prior statement about it being decided upon already.

Do I believe that AR should be changed to be something "usefull"? As long as the rest of the classes get a similar toggleable aoe immunity " width="15" height="15">

 I think you an idiot when it comes to AAs because plenty of other classes have AE blockers.. (Tortoise Shell would be an example I can think of off the top of my head, from the AGI druid tree..)

 and other classes have a 100% your not gonna get hit by this [I cannot control my vocabulary] AE, spell from AAs or not, whats so overpowered about a random proc? o.O

[Klaktar]

Yeah this makes absolutely no sense. When AR first got changed to a %-based proc I was [Removed for Content], but I got over it, because it made sense. This nerf is just [Removed for Content], especially since the brigand epic is apparently going to reverse the nerf to AR. What is the [Removed for Content] point of that? Is SoE too [Removed for Content] lazy to give us original abilities on the epics? There is seriously, honestly, absolutely NO [Removed for Content] REASON to alter Amazing Reflexes. Period.

[Bakasen]

I never said I wanted an at will AE immunity.. not that I would mind.... did kinda feel like grand theft when we lost ours and lots of classes picked up one..

No I mean.. obviously they don't want us to relyably, or even semi relieably dodge AEs.. so give us another Debuff attack, or a second AE, or a second ranged art, or something that does something we care about. Not that I don't Care about AR, it's just been so very nerfed and then ignored or insulted that I just am tired of it.... Lets have NO AE Imunity at all... then no one can gripe about us haveing such an awesome ablity..

And to the above poster as was so nicely pointed out... We don't have the ablity to controll it... if we are very very lucky it will proc for the 5 seconds we need it... otherwise.. it does nothing.. Any of the other AE immunitys, includeing the ones that necros can get for their pets work better. They might be short duration, or eat health or power.. but they work when you want them too... AR works when the RNG gods decide to let the brigand live..

It's a joke of an ablity, pretty much end of story.

[Aule]

Kivy wrote:

Geothe wrote:

You know the way sony works.They nerfed AR down again, because the brigand epic will have a mod to AR which will bring it back up to where it was prior to this nerf when grouped with a class that buffed the proc chance. heh.

Even if that were true - or that they changed the fabled gear to make AR proc more - why make it so that only a few select players can use the ability?  Why does everyone have to be a member of a top raiding guild in the game to use their standard abilities?I urge the developers to think about this decision and make it so that all raiding players can at least attempt to make use of an ability which makes their class somewhat unique.

/point coercer posession, charm, puppetmaster, pow drains, mindbend

Sony has a long track record of not letting raiders make use of abilities which make their class somewhat unique.  I feel bad for you guys getting nerfed.  I can't say I ever looked at the brigands and thought there was something overpowered about the way AR stands now.

[Trie]

 This just really sucks for all your brigs. The skill was already nerfed down and I thought that it was perfectly fine before the original change, a class defining ability and fun.  Swashies get Hurricane and its really powerful, why cant brigs have something to make up for AR if your making it almost totally useless. Just take it out and replace it with another brig only ability.  Its bad enough 3 or 4 other classes get an AOE blocker that they can timely activate. Why was AR so wrong in the first place. I encourage all brigs to /feedback in game and oppose the change and heck tell them to restore it to normal.

[Morrias]

 Ive just noticed I havent really posted my stance on the subject, just tried to get someone else to understand that AR didn't make briggies overpowered.. so.. " width="15" height="15" />

  I feel that the spell needs reversed, now ive heard tons of places that the briggy epic is gonna be another version of AR, but that STILL screws over non hardcore raiders, who could use that spell a lot more..

 Also, if we are getting another version of AR or an enchancement on AR, What the hell is the point of having the spell at all if its just getting nerfed like that..?

[Dajaan]

the really sad thing: the change has been announced three days ago, and we are on top of page two in this thread.looks like people just stopped caring about their class oh no wait - this the official forums right? the dev responsible for the change already posted his "up yours" comment on eq2flames and blatantly showed his non existent respect and sense of balance for our class there.i really hope that the management takes notice and releases him from his duties....read  on:

• his first comment
• his second comment

• the whole thread

[Leafkiller]

Just remove AR. Its so unreliable now that I don't use it on any AoE raid mob that has an AoE that can drop me. I joust with everyone else because I can't trust AR and this will make it worse.

Quit nerfing it because its so 'overpowered' and give us something useful. Give us another ranged CA - the reason we are so weak at range is because we are supposed to stay IN, but thats less and less feasible. Or give us another AoE.

Even without a nerf AR can barely be used anyway, especially with the number of mobs that get healed with each player death. Nerf it and its not worth bothering with...

Put it out of our collective misery already.

[TheFitz]

Dajaan wrote:

the really sad thing: the change has been announced three days ago, and we are on top of page two in this thread.looks like people just stopped caring about their class " width="15" height="15" />oh no wait - this the official forums right? the dev responsible for the change already posted his "up yours" comment on eq2flames and blatantly showed his non existent respect and sense of balance for our class there.i really hope that the management takes notice and releases him from his duties....read  on:

• his first comment
• his second comment

• the whole thread

Reading the thread the second comment was a little ridiculous especially from a professional.

[Quda]

What is going on, just got time to read about this, and I am amazed about some of the comments that SOE has posted about this nerf.

This spell has been nerfed so bad already it is no longer reliable, not even used.  As a raiding brig, I have to joust anyways because of this poorly badly beaten and bloody spell.

Now it is being beat some more?

So lets see, for almost 3 years, it was ok, now it isn't, but they give the reliable AOE immunity to other classes through AA, and continue to nerf this spell.

And a SOE employee makes a comment like that, come on!

[Bryarfo]

This skill is near useless, as anyone can plainly see by the endless string of brigands posting on the subject on various boards. It was never overpowered in the first place, it gave a scout-type class the ability to continue beating on a mob just like every ranged caster does.

But people complained and then they nerfed it. Id like to know who was complaining that our useless nerfed AR was still overpowered, since most brigands dont even know when its proc'ed in the first place. Seems an easy fix to just make it an activated skill that we could use once every few minutes so that at least OCCASIONALLY we could count on avoiding an AE attack. On no...that would be almost useful, nm.

[Morrias]

 seems like the devs are stuck in an endless loop, nerf this, oh but that makes that class too powerfull, lets nerf them, oh but look what that did to that class, nerf them now, ooh but that class actualy hits now! nerf them!!! oh and a little tiny lifeburn nerf for the necros..

 Seriously though, id like to see Aeraliks actual reason for nerfing this, and saying dirges make brigands overpowered isn't an excuse to nerf Brigands, or any other class, thats like saying tanks make healers overpowered 

[Ki]

I'd like to see ANY justification as to why this is overpowered.

If AR was overpowered to a point that it actually mattered - why doesn't every guild run with 6+ brigands?  Because it obviously isn't.

C'mon Aeralik or whomever on SOE - tell us why you are really doing this?  Cause noone has believed anything you've said so far.

[TheLopper]

Kivy wrote:

Geothe wrote:

You know the way sony works.They nerfed AR down again, because the brigand epic will have a mod to AR which will bring it back up to where it was prior to this nerf when grouped with a class that buffed the proc chance. heh.

Even if that were true - or that they changed the fabled gear to make AR proc more - why make it so that only a few select players can use the ability?  Why does everyone have to be a member of a top raiding guild in the game to use their standard abilities?I urge the developers to think about this decision and make it so that all raiding players can at least attempt to make use of an ability which makes their class somewhat unique.

AR is an AE avoidance related ability, no?  Alright, well you don;t really need much of that in your standard groups...so why should non-raiders even need the ability?  They don't, which is why it would be very logical if they implemented an enchancement on certain pieces of raid gear that would make the abilitiy useful.

If you don't like the ability, don't use it.  Other classes have useless abilities, we just don't bother with them.

[TheLopper]

Bryarfoot wrote:

This skill is near useless, as anyone can plainly see by the endless string of brigands posting on the subject on various boards. It was never overpowered in the first place, it gave a scout-type class the ability to continue beating on a mob just like every ranged caster does.

First of all, don't use obnoxious colors, such as bright-yellow, for your font.

Anyway, why do you need to keep hitting the mob for so long?  You DRAW-BACK is that you're melee...you already out DPS almost every other class, why should you be able to DPS even more!?!?!? 

Brigands- you all need to take your heads out of your ***es.  You're the second most OP'd class in the game...not being able to avoid AE's so easily isn't going to break the class.  You're still OP'd, relax.

[Klaktar]

TheLopper wrote:

Kivy wrote:

Geothe wrote:

You know the way sony works.They nerfed AR down again, because the brigand epic will have a mod to AR which will bring it back up to where it was prior to this nerf when grouped with a class that buffed the proc chance. heh.

Even if that were true - or that they changed the fabled gear to make AR proc more - why make it so that only a few select players can use the ability?  Why does everyone have to be a member of a top raiding guild in the game to use their standard abilities?I urge the developers to think about this decision and make it so that all raiding players can at least attempt to make use of an ability which makes their class somewhat unique.

AR is an AE avoidance related ability, no?  Alright, well you don;t really need much of that in your standard groups...so why should non-raiders even need the ability?  They don't, which is why it would be very logical if they implemented an enchancement on certain pieces of raid gear that would make the abilitiy useful.

If you don't like the ability, don't use it.  Other classes have useless abilities, we just don't bother with them.

Have you even been inside any T8 group instances? And tell me how many brigands there are who DON'T raid. I garuntee it's a small number.Oh, and the "useless abilities" of other classes include Summon Food and Drink and garbage like that, not buffs that people learned to rely on, only to have it slowly deconstructed. (Oh, and I forgot about enchanter mana drains...but again, enchanters obviously never learned to rely on those abilities.)And to people saying we're overpowered, this isn't T6, we aren't overpowered anymore. Everyone just THINKS we are, but they don't actually understand that we are, in a large way, a utility class. ZOMG DISPATCH! Guess what? It does more for the rest of the group/raid than it does for us. And hey, even if we ARE overpowered, we still have the right to [I cannot control my vocabulary], because SoE went and beefed us up with KoS, and now they're systematically breaking us down towards being like the brigand used to be. A weak utility class. SoE did this, so yeah, we can complain all we [I cannot control my vocabulary] well want, because they're toying with us.

[Klaktar]

TheLopper wrote:

skill is near useless, as anyone can plainly see by the endless string of brigands posting on the subject on various boards. It was never overpowered in the first place, it Anyway, why do you need to keep hitting the mob for so long?  You DRAW-BACK is that you're melee...you already out DPS almost every other class, why should you be able to DPS even more!?!?!?

Refer to this post.[Edited because I can't keep track of what's on my clipboard.]

[Ran]

useless spells should get a look at it or replaced with another useful spell... but... get in the line behind so many other classes.... i'm still waiting something usefull for the useless manadrain which coercer have... since a lot of months.