Time for a re-think of some Heritage Quests?

[Cathars]

The OP's point is a valid one.  The question is whether its worth the time to do.  The idea of a 'rare spawn' is obviously outdated ... heck, the huge majority of kills for HQs from expansions are triggered so its pretty clear the quest designers realized it.  I'd guess theres a chance it gets looked at kind of like how DFC got changed; during a lull between expansions.

[Noaani]

Lasai wrote:

And I agree, In Honor and Service is, to me, EXACTLY what a lower level HQ should be, and is how they should manage placeholders throughout. 

Here's a question, do any of you out there that think HQs are too hard have any issues with HQs that were never considered end game?

IE, pre EoF HQs that were T4 or below, or EoF HQs other than Raincaller and Crested Mistmoore Shield?

I can't think of a single HQ that was never considered end game that would take more than 2 or 3 hours to do, start to finish.

Those that were end game in T5 have...

Screaming Mace, the revamp of CT increased the chances of all 4 named mobs spawning per PH kill. Stein of Maggok, added PHs for bouncers, reduced the duration of them spawning when someone was on teh quest. previously, the bouncers would spawn every 6 hours or so, if someone killed them thinking they were a regular named mob, they would then take another 6 hours or so before they would respawn. Now, when a player is on the quest, they will kill the PH until the name spawns. In threoy, unless one spawns twice in a row, every time a bouncer spawns, there should be a player on the quest there ready to kill him. Saving Souls, Named mobs in Sol Eye have a much higher rate of spawning. An Eye for Power, three named mobs in EF have a much higher rate of spawning. LLoL, added trash mobs that will update one part that used to be on a 48 hour respawn timer. Training is a Shield, removed the 6 hour lockout between trials.

By Hook or by, unchanged as far as I am aware, was always doable in a day. Rescue of the Greenhoods, unchanged except for the portion in DFC. Reaching Blade of the Assassin, unchanged as far as I am aware, was always doable in a day. Teaching of Yoru, unchanged as far as I know, spawn timer for the marks seems to be shorter than it used to be though. BBC, unchanged, mass timesink and nothing else. Journey is Half the Fun, the increase in base movement speed made this HQ a joke compaired to what it was to start with.

So, basically, all the origional HQs with any sort of timesink (BBC aside, as the timesink is all that HQ has to it) have been updated, made easier, made faster. Also, a lot of origional HQ rewards were upgraded not long before KoS.

What more do you want?

[Draco the Grey]

Bouncer Prud is an easy one to get, but you have to literally camp him at the spawn point.  You can't run off and do other things, or go afk, and expect him to be up at the spawn point when you come back.  When he spawns, he takes off running along a pre-defined route and despawns when he reaches the end.  If there is a mob standing around at the spawn point it will be the place holder 100% of the time.

[NightGod473]

Noaani wrote:

Lasai wrote:

And I agree, In Honor and Service is, to me, EXACTLY what a lower level HQ should be, and is how they should manage placeholders throughout. 

Here's a question, do any of you out there that think HQs are too hard have any issues with HQs that were never considered end game?

IE, pre EoF HQs that were T4 or below, or EoF HQs other than Raincaller and Crested Mistmoore Shield?

I can't think of a single HQ that was never considered end game that would take more than 2 or 3 hours to do, start to finish.

Well... Return of the Light was never considered end-game, and that takes much more than 2 or 3 hours to finish unless you're insanely lucky.

[Noaani]

NightGod473 wrote:

Well... Return of the Light was never considered end-game, and that takes much more than 2 or 3 hours to finish unless you're insanely lucky.

Not since CL was redone with LU#24, assuming you know where the mobs spawn.

[NightGod473]

Noaani wrote:

NightGod473 wrote:

Well... Return of the Light was never considered end-game, and that takes much more than 2 or 3 hours to finish unless you're insanely lucky.

Not since CL was redone with LU#24, assuming you know where the mobs spawn.

Ithilmar just posted this on page 2 of this thread: I had my level 60 pally do 'Return of the Light', and it took me 5 HOURS to just get the priest in the tower to spawn, and that's not even counting the timeframe of me killing the lioness placeholders at start of quest. RotL is a low level HQ, and yet killing that many placeholders is obscene.

[Noaani]

NightGod473 wrote:

Noaani wrote:

Not since CL was redone with LU#24, assuming you know where the mobs spawn.

Ithilmar just posted this on page 2 of this thread: I had my level 60 pally do 'Return of the Light', and it took me 5 HOURS to just get the priest in the tower to spawn, and that's not even counting the timeframe of me killing the lioness placeholders at start of quest. RotL is a low level HQ, and yet killing that many placeholders is obscene.

Yeah, I read that post, and without giving too much away, I have highlighted the portions you should pay attention to.

[Tyndaleon]

The only real major issue I have with HQ's are the one that have needlessly epic encounters (or otherwise outrageously tougher encounters than the average level of the quester involved, as is the case with the skel captain in Stiletto's).  Off the top of my head, Return of the Light (Maulic's epic instance), Ghoulbane (Torig), and Stiletto's Orders Intercepted (Captain Ulssissaris) all need the specified encounters mentioned adjusted to be more in line of an average-level-for-the-HQ tough heroic single group encounter.

[Arlen Wraithbane]

heya folks -

                    IMVHO - the player has a choice - do the quest as it is - or dont do the quest - i personally do them for the status - in my spare time as im a lvl 70 guard. but its my choice to wait for the spawns or not to wait - as I do not see SOE putting a gun to your head to do them - delete the quest.

[Dasein]

Arlen Wraithbane wrote:

heya folks -

                    IMVHO - the player has a choice - do the quest as it is - or dont do the quest - i personally do them for the status - in my spare time as im a lvl 70 guard. but its my choice to wait for the spawns or not to wait - as I do not see SOE putting a gun to your head to do them - delete the quest.

SOE also wants to keep players, and we all have an interest in keeping the game well-populated. If your response to poorly implemented content is to simply ignore it, the logical conclusion is to stop playing the game - as there are many other games out there, this is not a viable or healthy strategy to take. Thus, poorly designed content must be re-examined for all our sakes.

[FalseCourage]

Now, before you call me an evil no good ragged or shady fella. Please understand this, heritage quests were meant to introduce items from the original EverQuest Live and give a bit of lore to them. Within telling the story, it normally has to be a long quest. Reducing a spawn timer is a slap in the face to all those who've done the quest before and after the level cap was raised. Also, the level cap should not be an excuse to trivialize content... I mean really, what the hay? I've done all of the old-world and new-world heritage quests (excluding ghoulbane - grr...) up to level 50. I've received the titles and status from the quest. If anything, I can only agree with this thread on the point that all names that have a placeholder in a heritage / normal / whatever quest should definitely spawn. This is the equivalent of me saying that quests in general should definitely not ever be bugged. I strongly, do not agree with any point in reducing a spawn timer, increasing the probability that a creature will spawn, removing a creature's contested status, and or removing loot from a quest mob that has a placeholder in order to alleviate the farming conditions. If the heritage quests become trivialized or modified in a way that would cause past versions of the quest to mean nothing, then I suggest moving the heritage quests to it's own bracket. In example, heritage quests that are modified should be called heirship. But, I am not the majority, only a minority in this thread's purpose. I just wish, that if the developers make these quests laughable that they reward the players who've completed them before the revamp with items or some status token.

[Dasein]

FalseCourage wrote:

Now, before you call me an evil no good ragged or shady fella. Please understand this, heritage quests were meant to introduce items from the original EverQuest Live and give a bit of lore to them. Within telling the story, it normally has to be a long quest. Reducing a spawn timer is a slap in the face to all those who've done the quest before and after the level cap was raised. Also, the level cap should not be an excuse to trivialize content... I mean really, what the hay? I've done all of the old-world and new-world heritage quests (excluding ghoulbane - grr...) up to level 50. I've received the titles and status from the quest. If anything, I can only agree with this thread on the point that all names that have a placeholder in a heritage / normal / whatever quest should definitely spawn. This is the equivalent of me saying that quests in general should definitely not ever be bugged. I strongly, do not agree with any point in reducing a spawn timer, increasing the probability that a creature will spawn, removing a creature's contested status, and or removing loot from a quest mob that has a placeholder in order to alleviate the farming conditions. If the heritage quests become trivialized or modified in a way that would cause past versions of the quest to mean nothing, then I suggest moving the heritage quests to it's own bracket. In example, heritage quests that are modified should be called heirship. But, I am not the majority, only a minority in this thread's purpose. I just wish, that if the developers make these quests laughable that they reward the players who've completed them before the revamp with items or some status token.

I've done every HQ in the game, and wouldn't feel the slightest bit offended or annoyed if they were to revise them to account for changed realities in the game, like an addiitonal 30 levels (with the release of RoK) and dozens of new zones, and hundreds of new quests and items. The fact is, the game has evolved, and paradigms that were operative when the original HQs were designed no longer apply and are no longer in effect for many new quests. This is because these previous design principles were broken, and produced many quests that were tedious and not at all fun. In essence, HQs now represent content that is broken at a conceptual level and should be revamped to fit with working quest design models.

[Noaani]

Dasein wrote:

I've done every HQ in the game, and wouldn't feel the slightest bit offended or annoyed if they were to revise them to account for changed realities in the game, like an addiitonal 30 levels (with the release of RoK) and dozens of new zones, and hundreds of new quests and items. The fact is, the game has evolved, and paradigms that were operative when the original HQs were designed no longer apply and are no longer in effect for many new quests. This is because these previous design principles were broken, and produced many quests that were tedious and not at all fun. In essence, HQs now represent content that is broken at a conceptual level and should be revamped to fit with working quest design models.

Just curious, exactly what changes would you make to the old school HQs to make improvements above the changes they hae already gone through?

Personally, I think its those changes that are causing a lot of the issues players are having. People are getting info on spawns mixedd up between what they were back in the day, and what they are after the quests respective zone had gone through a revamp. Every single actual rare spwn mob (ie, not triggered spawn) needed for those HQs has been through a revamp of some kind. Some have had their spawn condition chaned (priestess for RotL), some have been moved (torturer for Screaming Mace), some have been made non esseintial to the HQ (Tyrock Cleavers adds), but they are all more common now than they were when T5 was the cap.

Edit: there *are* some things I would change about some of those HQs, but the spawn timer of mobs required is not one of those things.

[NightGod473]

I did Screaming Mace a couple of months ago and, even killing in the right places, it still took me about 8 hours of killing gray placeholders in CT to complete (and that's running a circuit to hit all of them every spawn cycle) Sorry, that's just plain stupid. Consider this another vote for changing of the spawn criteria for HQs, I guess.

[rumblepants]

I have to jump on the OP's bandwagon as well in that the frequency of rare spawns should be looked at. I haven't had that much trouble when I worked on my HQs but in some cases when I lent a hand, I noticed camps that took hours and hours for days before we could finally get the rare spawn. That disparity between what took me a few rounds of killing to something like that where it took someone else hours and hours doesn't make sense. I'd rather see some ingenuity here and replace these EQ1-type camps with riddles, puzzles, or anything where it requires using your brain. I'd rather pull my hair out over that than going through a mind-numbingly boring process of killing mob after mob after mob.

[Glaxton]

I've just recently came back to the game and started fresh with a new toon. I remember when the game first launched. Return of the Light was a piece of cake to get done. There were always a bunch of folks LFG to go to BSV. Anything that had to do with going to Nek Castle was easy cause once again there were always people LFG to go there. I even did an open Ghouldbane raid which only took maybe an hour to get the raid full, but once again there were a lot of people that were looking to do this.

 That's just not the case anymore. The population has thinned out. People have taken several alts to the cap. The character base of the game has evolved and the game itself has as well. However, there are still a few things that seem to have slipped through the cracks. The High Priest of Valmar has to show his face a little more often. I love the fact that he is still pretty darn tough, but seven hours of camping a single mob for a lvl 20 quest? Ramanai wasn't that bad once I knew the PH name and finally figured out where it spawned. Still trying to get enough people together to do the raid portion though. Oh well, maybe I'll solo it when I'm 50.

I hate to say it but I used to be a firm believe in camps. However, I'm with the OP here. Sitting in one place for hours on end was never fun in EQ1, but it was teh accepted way of the community. I was younger with not much else going on in my life so I could pull those 20 to 30 hour camps. Unfortunately life has made me grow up and game time is very limited. What little time I do have I would like to enjoy it. Staring at the same spot, counting the seconds until the mob spawns with my fingers crossed, hoping that maybe 35 is the magic number for spawns just isn't fun anymore.

[Noaani]

NightGod473 wrote:

I did Screaming Mace a couple of months ago and, even killing in the right places, it still took me about 8 hours of killing gray placeholders in CT to complete (and that's running a circuit to hit all of them every spawn cycle) Sorry, that's just plain stupid. Consider this another vote for changing of the spawn criteria for HQs, I guess.

It was posted by a dev not long after they started doing zone revamps that if you are after a name that is supposed to spawn for a quest, and you do not get that name after 6 clearings of the PHs, then /bug it as it is broken.

If it took you 8 hours to get the 4 names for screaming Mace, then 1 of 3 things happened (which I highly highly doubt, you would have act downloaded, import the time/date of this supposed camping into it and show some screenshots from act, with times, if your telling the truth).

1, you missed a name spawn, someone else got it before you saw it, and you missed out on it.

2, you were killing the wrong mobs.

3, it was broken.

There is no other possability. I killed the 2 names on the top level of CT the other day on my cleric, then went and did the ring event in the back. When i finished that, both names were back up again. They are not rare any more.

[Noaani]

Glaxton wrote:

That's just not the case anymore. The population has thinned out. People have taken several alts to the cap. The character base of the game has evolved and the game itself has as well. However, there are still a few things that seem to have slipped through the cracks. The High Priest of Valmar has to show his face a little more often. I love the fact that he is still pretty darn tough, but seven hours of camping a single mob for a lvl 20 quest? Ramanai wasn't that bad once I knew the PH name and finally figured out where it spawned. Still trying to get enough people together to do the raid portion though. Oh well, maybe I'll solo it when I'm 50.

This is what I am talking about. I assume you are relying on 3rd party websites with walkthroughs for your information here. If so, there is a 90% chance you are not being efficent about spawning Valmar, most of these sights I have looked at have false/outdated info on that HQ.

As a prime example of how outdated info can be bad, BSV is no longer epic, and you can not take more than 6 people in at a time.

[RoryBradwarden]

I agree PH have to be changed ..... Killing something over and over for hours is bad ... Keep the random chance, but for goodness sake after a few PHs make the named have to spawn ... I would say 5 MAX

[jagermonsta]

As far as I know HQs use to be even tougher (longer spawns, rarer drops and especially with all the Access Quests that were necessary that now aren't) I like OP have my XP turned off. I gain levels by HQs and discovery. In T5 I was able to get 40-48 doing HQs only and I still have a couple lvl 50 HQs to finish up.

[NightGod473]

Noaani wrote:

NightGod473 wrote:

I did Screaming Mace a couple of months ago and, even killing in the right places, it still took me about 8 hours of killing gray placeholders in CT to complete (and that's running a circuit to hit all of them every spawn cycle) Sorry, that's just plain stupid. Consider this another vote for changing of the spawn criteria for HQs, I guess.

It was posted by a dev not long after they started doing zone revamps that if you are after a name that is supposed to spawn for a quest, and you do not get that name after 6 clearings of the PHs, then /bug it as it is broken.

If it took you 8 hours to get the 4 names for screaming Mace, then 1 of 3 things happened (which I highly highly doubt, you would have act downloaded, import the time/date of this supposed camping into it and show some screenshots from act, with times, if your telling the truth).

1, you missed a name spawn, someone else got it before you saw it, and you missed out on it.

2, you were killing the wrong mobs.

3, it was broken.

There is no other possability. I killed the 2 names on the top level of CT the other day on my cleric, then went and did the ring event in the back. When i finished that, both names were back up again. They are not rare any more.

I never saw the note about reporting a broken spawn, or I certainly would have done so. I didn't bother taking screen shots, either, though I certainly spent enough time complaining about it in /gu. As for your three things: 1) Hard to miss out on a spawn when you are there to see it or the PHer pop every time (and you see maybe 10 people in the zone, 6 of which you know because they are there mentoring down to PL a friend of yours and only 2 of which come anywhere near you, the whole night because the zone is basically deserted anyway) 2) If I was killing the wrong mobs, then explain the named popping off the PHers I killed and, of course, that leaves 3) it's broken. And stupid in the first place. Camping is not fun-like many others, I used to accept it as part of the MMORPG experience-my first long camp was camping Gynok in Befallen as a level 22 cleric in EQ1 so I could get my Paw of Opalla. I started at 8 PM fell asleep at the computer at 3 in the morning and woke up when I heard one of the friends I had made during that time casting (glad I turned the volume on my speakers way up). Much later I spent the better part of 72 hours in SolB playing a friend's druid and killing at UBugs so I could track for Ragefire-he finally spawned at 6 in the morning on Monday and I managed to scrape together a raid to kill him and get my epic and still manage to get my wife to work (after she logged in her cleric to help with the kill). And, quite honestly, I just don't care to do it any more. I'd rather to the BBC "Kill 1000 sentient creatures" than subject myself to some mindless named camp when you can do nothing but sit there and cross your fingers and hope that you'll actually get the spawn you need this time rather than yet another 23 minute wait.

[Guy De Alsace]

I've spent over a week LFG, spamming level chat channels, using the much underused LFG tool, asking in guild and trying my best to get a raid or a strong group to kill Huntmaster Viswin for the Casualties of the War of the Fay. I've had one response in a week.

Its not always the quest that is the problem - where the hell is everyone to do these quests? I was told that loads of people were doing this HQ but I've had no response at all. Its taken me forever to do this quest since hardly anyone wants to do CoI either because the loot there is atrocious.

[Guy De Alsace]

Oh yeah - someone said earlier in this thread that the game was about quests. Well, I beg to differ. You get far far better loot and tons better xps from grinding instances. Solo quests are a diversion and nothing more since the xp isnt great and the rewards are invariably naff to the point of insulting.

Apart from the very few long, tough heroic and insanely long epic quests - the rest of the thousands of quests are like playing with your gameboy while queuing for a blockbuster film. Something to pass the time while looking for an instance grp.

[Kellin]

High Priest of Val'Marr is broken.  Definitely.  I've helped 5 or 6 people with it in the last several months, and every single time, he's been a massive pain.  The last time was about 3 weeks ago.  I stuck around for about 2.5-3 hours before I had to log for dinner.  He did spawn shortly thereafter, but it was not a fun time.

I've camped him for myself a few times, too.  I've always given up after about an hour or so, because my personal camp tolerance is very low (Raster in LGuk in EQ, anyone?  60 hours for me), so it usually takes me several trips before I can get him.  I have never, ever completed this quest before it went gray.

I understand making people work to finish quests, but name camping isn't fun.  As a previous poster said, killing 1000 mobs for BBC is less of a problem to me than camping a name.  At least I'm advancing the quest with each kill, not sitting around in one spot outleveling the quest on placeholder trash.

As for people outleveling the rewards, well, if it's armor or weapons of any kind, you'll outgrow them eventually, no matter what.  That happens with any quest reward, really.  At least the HQ rewards can be put in your house as a memento.

[Syndic]

I would have to agree with the OP.  The heritages from Old World need to be looked at.  Ones that are raids should be turned into group ones (even hard group).  It is practically impossible to get a raid formed at these low levels to get these done, the only option open is to wait until your miles above quest level then do it.  The camping of named is rediculous.  I've found this post becuase I was sure that in one of patch notes they said that Heritage nameds would no longer than take more than 4 PH kills to get to spawn.  I couldn't find it btw.  But after killing Bouncer Ferbs PHer 9 times and Bouncer whateverhisnameis (haven't got him to spawn yet, not Hurd or Prud) Pher's over 10 times (and stll no go) this is just become a time wasting excercise that only infuriates players and makes them wonder why they play.

I know there is a tonne of better things players can do than camped named and I'm sure they would have a much more enjoyable time playing if they didn't have to camp.  Oh and getting a quest that is raid in your teens or 40's not a good idea in these times.

P.S. Not even sure why the bouncers don't just always spawn, or have like a 50% spawn chance.

Edit: took 13 Pher's to get Bouncer Fug.

[Polyneikes]

Some camp times you guys are posting seem so high that they can only be exagerated. I have done all HQs several times on my alts and can never remember once having to wait 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8 hours on a name. I really cannot believe that you stood for 4+ hours onthe same spot and didnt get one named to pop, especially nowadays as they seem to pop every 2-3 PHs and most timer are down to about 10 mins.

I myself would not want to have missed doing the HQs the first time round, there was lots to discover about the game, questing, geography and mobs for a new player. Second time was fun too as I could throw in some expertise and still not be bored by them. I can understand feeling bored if you are doing them the 4th or 5th time, but noone is forcing you to do so - status, items, lvls and AA can be gained in a much more time-effective way if time-effectiveness is your issue.

I am against making HQs time-effective, that would betray the intention of these quests. You could replace the time-factor invoked by rare spawns with other means, though in the end they will all feel like a timesink because some day you realise you are only doing this part to make the quest longer (running for items all over norrath, talking to NPCs all over norrath, killing xxxx number of mobs - might as well camp a named for an hour or two)

[Beldin_]

Polyneikes wrote:

I am against making HQs time-effective, that would betray the intention of these quests. You could replace the time-factor invoked by rare spawns with other means, though in the end they will all feel like a timesink because some day you realise you are only doing this part to make the quest longer (running for items all over norrath, talking to NPCs all over norrath, killing xxxx number of mobs - might as well camp a named for an hour or two)

Running arround Norrath or killing 1000 mobs may also be annoying .. however .. at least you have something to do. Sitting on the Bridge in Feerrott for hours and wait that every 15-20 minutes the bouncer or the PH spawns .. and not be able to do something in between .. is just much more boring.

[SageGaspar]

Caster/priest rewards -- stats together with a proc, a clicky, BoE, symmetry, something Melee rewards -- if it's not a short quest, either really really good for their level range or a clicky that'll extend beyond the usefulness of the reward Think Et'sipe's Haubergon of Undeath, an item that some melee carry around with them up till 70 because, what the hell, it's a free proc. Manastone is an HQ you carry around forever just because it's useful. Jboots are a fun, easy quest that gets you a lot of disco you'd want to get anyway, gives you a decent boots item, and most people can use the 10% speed boost for a long time. Staff of the Observers has a fun little pet you can play around with. Compare to the Stein, an item that lets you squeeze out like five more int and a little power for a couple levels over easily obtainable treasured gear. Tobrin's Eyepatch and GBS have the same problem. Crown of Tranny, which honestly I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone wearing. Ghoulbane, a disappointing sword at the end of that [Removed for Content] of an HQ. Fishbone Earring probably saves you less money on underwater totems than you'd make selling it over the lifetime of your character, although at least it compactifies your inventory hehe. DWB, why not put a partial harvesting boost on the first version? Why doesn't the Stein of Moggok have a clicky heal? I'd love to actually use these items once.

[Tanan]

Its been stated before if you don't want to do it, then don't.  Because you don't want to spend the time to get the reward then you don't deserve to get the reward. These are not the simple go kill x number of mobs or go here and get update then go here and here and here.  Spawn times have been shortened dramaticly.  Ramani and Bloodtalon used to be on 18 hour spawn times and many others were on 24 hour or longer timers.  Everyone complained then and timers were lowered.  Now Ramani and Bloodtalon spawn every 8 cycles.  That is an hour tops.  Its the same with many mobs now.  Instead of timers they are on spawn cycles.  HQ rewards are also items from EQ1 and the absolute best stuff for that level.  I think it is definitely worthwhile.

Why even have quests in the game if no one wants to spend the time to complete them?  It breaks the monotany of mindless grinding.  They also provide lore behind the game which many people like about this game. 

[zonedbob]

I love HQs - my main has done all but one. My T7 alts have done maybe 5 or 6 between them.

The main problem is that levelling is so much faster now that its unrealistic to expect players to spend a lot of time on HQs for items that will quickly be outlevelled. One solution is to reduce spawn times etc etc, but I would prefer to see T7 "upgrades" to HQ items. That way, the quests would have a purpose in T4 or T5, people would run their alts through them, or be prepared to mentor down for them, because there is an endgame function to them. And it would provide some much needed new quest content at T7.

If there were upgrades, I think players would (in general) be less resentful of long camps. Ths would reduce the need to make the quests easier/shorter/soloable/morefun/whatever.