So we're going to have a 5% base avoidance now

Lairdragna · 12-06-2006, 04:56 AM

Because SOE screwed the pooch and gave warriors flat mitigation buffs versus a percentage of their gear, we're going to get [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] [Removed for Content]. Some ingenius warriors figured out that they could equip cloth armor and get sick avoidance and use their self-buff to still get past the point of diminishing returns for mitigation. So SOE's solution is not to change their buffs to bring them back in line with everybody else, it is to give all plate classes a 5% base avoidance regardless of what armor you are actually wearing! So put a sickly mage in a cloth robe and they get around a 25% base avoidance or something ridiculous, put us in the same robe and we get a 5% base avoidance as strapping fighter types.So we once again take the shaft. This should dovetail nicely with the nerfs to hitpoint and power adornments which might have helped us make up for the extra hits we are going to take now.

Ahven · 12-06-2006, 10:54 AM

Not a nerf exactly since you already had that lvl of base avoid while wearing plate. They simply took the avoid off the armor and made it class based so tanking in cloth armor will not work anymore. Your base avoid will stay exactly as it is if you were in plate, the only change is that there is now no reason at all to wear any chain since it will not raise your avoid, even in chain you will still have the base avoid of wearing plate.

Lairdragna · 12-06-2006, 11:03 AM

kind of silly since some chain has better stats... makes no sense to say you will avoid the same if wearing lighter armor. Just fix the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mit buffs two classes enjoyed that made this a problem in the first place.

Caetrel · 12-06-2006, 12:34 PM

I am glad they changed this as quickly as they did and I am grateful to the people who brought it to dev attention. Kudos to all. My avoidance didn't change at all. The problem they had was an inherent hole in their new system. It made a mockery of that system, and now it's corrected.

Meio · 12-06-2006, 04:41 PM

Caetrel wrote:I am glad they changed this as quickly as they did and I am grateful to the people who brought it to dev attention. Kudos to all. My avoidance didn't change at all. The problem they had was an inherent hole in their new system. It made a mockery of that system, and now it's corrected.

Actually you say thank you for removing flexibilty from the game. Before you could switch mitigation against avoidance, just with wearing other armor. Prolly not many did it, but some had some lighter armor for different needs. This is now lost, because a few people missused the system and it was prolly the easyiest fix to 'solve' the problem. Less choice is allways bad =(

Nevar · 12-06-2006, 06:15 PM

Why should us wearing cloth give us better avoid? The issue in this isnt the armor type. Its the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing curves start way to soon. I used to self buff my mit to about 63ish% and there is no diff inthis then being at 58% which iscrap. I have changed alot of my gear around to better max my avoid and hp. IF they fix when the curve starts you would have never seen this issue.

Lairdragna · 12-06-2006, 06:17 PM

Mornin tookie

Nevar · 12-06-2006, 06:17 PM

Unfortunetly it is and I am enjoying waffles. I <3 waffles.

TheBu · 12-06-2006, 07:11 PM

Ahven wrote:
Not a nerf exactly since you already had that lvl of base avoid while wearing plate. They simply took the avoid off the armor and made it class based so tanking in cloth armor will not work anymore. Your base avoid will stay exactly as it is if you were in plate, the only change is that there is now no reason at all to wear any chain since it will not raise your avoid, even in chain you will still have the base avoid of wearing plate.

it is a nurf. . .

We are now unable to gain the benifit of wearing better avoidance armor such as leather. avoidance should change for the amror type as in real life physics. someone has ther head in the worng place and can not relize how complcated they have made this with a curve here and ther and the deminising returns. i would have been happier with them making it so plate classes could only have plate armor. But instead they break the rules of common sence.

Boethius_Permafrost · 12-06-2006, 08:26 PM

We're being nerfed to be exactly the same! Heh.Seriously, though, you'd think they would realize that if people are better off wearing cloth armor, maybe they penalized mitigation too much. But, that would take common sense, which isn't a good trait for a game designer.

Ruwen71 · 12-06-2006, 11:09 PM

Lairdragna wrote:
Because SOE screwed the pooch and gave warriors flat mitigation buffs versus a percentage of their gear, we're going to get [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] [Removed for Content].

I hope I'm not derailling this thread... I'm just trying to better understand the problem. I'm wondering if you guys can tell me if there are there any other classes who have group mitigation buffs that are based on the percentage of their gear as was implied? Also, doesn't offering of armament (which I hope to get tonight on my Fae, woot!) give a flat mitigation amount? Based on this post it sounds like it doesn't? Thank You.

Caetrel · 12-06-2006, 11:22 PM

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would you want to wear cloth?? It was alpha [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that you could get insane avoidance from cloth. It is insane to justify being a better tank from wearing cloth. You can call the change whatever you want, call it a nerf, call it less choice, call it unrealistic. At leaast the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is gone.

Caetrel · 12-06-2006, 11:24 PM

I hope I'm not derailling this thread... I'm just trying to better understand the problem.

The problem is some pallies want to wear a dress and lob nukes 8P

Fatuus · 12-06-2006, 11:28 PM

Ruwen71 wrote:

Lairdragna wrote:
Because SOE screwed the pooch and gave warriors flat mitigation buffs versus a percentage of their gear, we're going to get [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] [Removed for Content].

I hope I'm not derailling this thread... I'm just trying to better understand the problem. I'm wondering if you guys can tell me if there are there any other classes who have group mitigation buffs that are based on the percentage of their gear as was implied? Also, doesn't offering of armament (which I hope to get tonight on my Fae, woot!) give a flat mitigation amount? Based on this post it sounds like it doesn't? Thank You.

The problem is that a group mit percentage buff DOESN'T work well (nor self or single type). Its pointless to cast a group buff that increases a players mitigation 15% (like our current defensive stances do) what does an additional increase of 15% do for a clothe wearer at 13% avoidance...maybe 1.5% total mit increase. HOWEVER, a 1400 group mit buff that guardians give would almost DOUBLE the mitigation a cloth wearer has currently from that 13% to 26%.

Percentage based mitigation for self buffs are broke atm. Your master defensive stance at lvl 8 does the same mitigation as you lvl 58 one does...the only difference is the amount of stats and some resist differences. Therefore, theres not a huge reason to upgrade from previous stances to the new ones anymore.

And yes offering of armament is a flat based mitigation boost.

Ruwen71 · 12-06-2006, 11:44 PM

Thanks everyone.

So if I'm understanding this correctly the real problem is that, "Percentage based mitigation for self buffs are broke atm." and one way of off setting that was to wear lighter armor in order to increase avoidance. But they have now corrected the solution for the problem because it could also be exploited by a warrior. And the reason warriors were able to exploit this is because they have group mit buffs which use a flat amount instead of self mit buffs which use a percent amount. So the underlying problem still exists and all of these changes really haven't changed anything. That's confusing... but that's what I've understood so far.

Karlen · 12-07-2006, 12:23 AM

Now that everyone has had a chance to try this out, can anyone confirm that for those of us who are plate-wearing classes actually wearing plate, nothing has changed?

Wallzak · 12-07-2006, 12:46 AM

I understand why they needed to make a change... but handled it the wrong way.

Think of it this way:

Put on a full suit of plate armor, stand at one end of a room and I'll shoot a paintball gun at you... it won't hurt, but you're going to have a heck of a time avoiding it... why?? because the suit weighs a few hundred pounds.

Put on a pair of pants, running shoes and a t-shirt and repeat the exercise. I'm going to have a hard time hitting you... but when I do... ouch that hurts.

This is reality.

SOE's just took out a sense of realism to the game... good job :manmad:

If a class got a unfair advantage by this... fix the class don't change the laws of physics.

Lairdragna · 12-07-2006, 03:44 AM

No Sam, that's not what they did.They now say, hey you normally wear plate, so you can't avoid the paintball in your plate, but it won't hurt.However, when you step put of the shower and aren't wearing the plate... well you still can't avoid the paintball, and yes, now it will hurt.

Wallzak · 12-07-2006, 04:22 AM

oops, sorry, reread it and realized it was being read wrong. What I meant was my analogy was how it used to be before the change... now they're defying the laws of physics by saying it doesn't matter what you wear... you will always move the same speed :smileywink:

EvilIguana9 · 12-07-2006, 06:26 AM

sammcduff wrote:

I understand why they needed to make a change... but handled it the wrong way.

Think of it this way:

Put on a full suit of plate armor, stand at one end of a room and I'll shoot a paintball gun at you... it won't hurt, but you're going to have a heck of a time avoiding it... why?? because the suit weighs a few hundred pounds.

Put on a pair of pants, running shoes and a t-shirt and repeat the exercise. I'm going to have a hard time hitting you... but when I do... ouch that hurts.

This is reality.

SOE's just took out a sense of realism to the game... good job :manmad:

If a class got a unfair advantage by this... fix the class don't change the laws of physics.

God I hate this myth. PLATE ARMOR DOES NOT WEIGH THAT MUCH. It weighs 45-85 lbs and is distributed evenly across the user's body, far less than what a modern soldier carries into battle. It has a great number of articulations and was custom made for each customer, meaning that it was only a minor limit on free motion. A man in full plate could run long distances, jump, duck, pretty much anything anyone else could do. In fact, full plate armor was probably less of a hinderance to movement than chain mail in many circumstances. If you think of avoidance as a measure of blows that fail to connect with the body and do damage, then plate mail will significantly increase your avoidance. Especially when you consider the fact that fighting a man with such great protection forces you to use techniques that target the few weak points, techniques that are far harder to execute than just swiping a guy with a sharpened blade.

Wallzak · 12-07-2006, 12:02 PM

I stand corrected... thanks for the info!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour

12-06-2006, 12:34 PM	#4
Caetrel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 427	I am glad they changed this as quickly as they did and I am grateful to the people who brought it to dev attention. Kudos to all. My avoidance didn't change at all. The problem they had was an inherent hole in their new system. It made a mockery of that system, and now it's corrected. __________________ Fidelus Raid Leader Survivors Guk

12-06-2006, 06:15 PM	#6
Nevar General Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 118	Why should us wearing cloth give us better avoid? The issue in this isnt the armor type. Its the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing curves start way to soon. I used to self buff my mit to about 63ish% and there is no diff inthis then being at 58% which iscrap. I have changed alot of my gear around to better max my avoid and hp. IF they fix when the curve starts you would have never seen this issue. __________________

12-06-2006, 06:17 PM	#8
Nevar General Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 118	Unfortunetly it is and I am enjoying waffles. I <3 waffles. __________________

12-06-2006, 07:11 PM	#9
TheBu General Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 400	Ahven wrote: Not a nerf exactly since you already had that lvl of base avoid while wearing plate. They simply took the avoid off the armor and made it class based so tanking in cloth armor will not work anymore. Your base avoid will stay exactly as it is if you were in plate, the only change is that there is now no reason at all to wear any chain since it will not raise your avoid, even in chain you will still have the base avoid of wearing plate. it is a nurf. . . We are now unable to gain the benifit of wearing better avoidance armor such as leather. avoidance should change for the amror type as in real life physics. someone has ther head in the worng place and can not relize how complcated they have made this with a curve here and ther and the deminising returns. i would have been happier with them making it so plate classes could only have plate armor. But instead they break the rules of common sence.

12-06-2006, 11:09 PM	#11
Ruwen71 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 19	Lairdragna wrote: Because SOE screwed the pooch and gave warriors flat mitigation buffs versus a percentage of their gear, we're going to get [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] [Removed for Content]. I hope I'm not derailling this thread... I'm just trying to better understand the problem. I'm wondering if you guys can tell me if there are there any other classes who have group mitigation buffs that are based on the percentage of their gear as was implied? Also, doesn't offering of armament (which I hope to get tonight on my Fae, woot!) give a flat mitigation amount? Based on this post it sounds like it doesn't? Thank You.

12-06-2006, 04:56 AM	#1
Lairdragna Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 543	Because SOE screwed the pooch and gave warriors flat mitigation buffs versus a percentage of their gear, we're going to get [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] [Removed for Content]. Some ingenius warriors figured out that they could equip cloth armor and get sick avoidance and use their self-buff to still get past the point of diminishing returns for mitigation. So SOE's solution is not to change their buffs to bring them back in line with everybody else, it is to give all plate classes a 5% base avoidance regardless of what armor you are actually wearing! So put a sickly mage in a cloth robe and they get around a 25% base avoidance or something ridiculous, put us in the same robe and we get a 5% base avoidance as strapping fighter types.So we once again take the shaft. This should dovetail nicely with the nerfs to hitpoint and power adornments which might have helped us make up for the extra hits we are going to take now.

12-06-2006, 10:54 AM	#2
Ahven Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 30	Not a nerf exactly since you already had that lvl of base avoid while wearing plate. They simply took the avoid off the armor and made it class based so tanking in cloth armor will not work anymore. Your base avoid will stay exactly as it is if you were in plate, the only change is that there is now no reason at all to wear any chain since it will not raise your avoid, even in chain you will still have the base avoid of wearing plate.

12-06-2006, 11:03 AM	#3
Lairdragna Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 543	kind of silly since some chain has better stats... makes no sense to say you will avoid the same if wearing lighter armor. Just fix the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mit buffs two classes enjoyed that made this a problem in the first place.

12-06-2006, 04:41 PM	#5
Meio General Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 122	Caetrel wrote:I am glad they changed this as quickly as they did and I am grateful to the people who brought it to dev attention. Kudos to all. My avoidance didn't change at all. The problem they had was an inherent hole in their new system. It made a mockery of that system, and now it's corrected. Actually you say thank you for removing flexibilty from the game. Before you could switch mitigation against avoidance, just with wearing other armor. Prolly not many did it, but some had some lighter armor for different needs. This is now lost, because a few people missused the system and it was prolly the easyiest fix to 'solve' the problem. Less choice is allways bad =(

12-06-2006, 08:26 PM	#10
Boethius_Permafrost Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 335	We're being nerfed to be exactly the same! Heh.Seriously, though, you'd think they would realize that if people are better off wearing cloth armor, maybe they penalized mitigation too much. But, that would take common sense, which isn't a good trait for a game designer.

12-06-2006, 11:22 PM	#12
Caetrel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 427	[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would you want to wear cloth?? It was alpha [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that you could get insane avoidance from cloth. It is insane to justify being a better tank from wearing cloth. You can call the change whatever you want, call it a nerf, call it less choice, call it unrealistic. At leaast the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is gone. __________________ Fidelus Raid Leader Survivors Guk

12-06-2006, 11:24 PM	#13
Caetrel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 427	I hope I'm not derailling this thread... I'm just trying to better understand the problem. The problem is some pallies want to wear a dress and lob nukes 8P __________________ Fidelus Raid Leader Survivors Guk

12-06-2006, 11:28 PM	#14
Fatuus Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 315	Ruwen71 wrote: Lairdragna wrote: Because SOE screwed the pooch and gave warriors flat mitigation buffs versus a percentage of their gear, we're going to get [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] [Removed for Content]. I hope I'm not derailling this thread... I'm just trying to better understand the problem. I'm wondering if you guys can tell me if there are there any other classes who have group mitigation buffs that are based on the percentage of their gear as was implied? Also, doesn't offering of armament (which I hope to get tonight on my Fae, woot!) give a flat mitigation amount? Based on this post it sounds like it doesn't? Thank You. The problem is that a group mit percentage buff DOESN'T work well (nor self or single type). Its pointless to cast a group buff that increases a players mitigation 15% (like our current defensive stances do) what does an additional increase of 15% do for a clothe wearer at 13% avoidance...maybe 1.5% total mit increase. HOWEVER, a 1400 group mit buff that guardians give would almost DOUBLE the mitigation a cloth wearer has currently from that 13% to 26%. Percentage based mitigation for self buffs are broke atm. Your master defensive stance at lvl 8 does the same mitigation as you lvl 58 one does...the only difference is the amount of stats and some resist differences. Therefore, theres not a huge reason to upgrade from previous stances to the new ones anymore. And yes offering of armament is a flat based mitigation boost. __________________

12-06-2006, 11:44 PM	#15
Ruwen71 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 19	Thanks everyone. So if I'm understanding this correctly the real problem is that, "Percentage based mitigation for self buffs are broke atm." and one way of off setting that was to wear lighter armor in order to increase avoidance. But they have now corrected the solution for the problem because it could also be exploited by a warrior. And the reason warriors were able to exploit this is because they have group mit buffs which use a flat amount instead of self mit buffs which use a percent amount. So the underlying problem still exists and all of these changes really haven't changed anything. That's confusing... but that's what I've understood so far.

12-07-2006, 12:23 AM	#16
Karlen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,513	Now that everyone has had a chance to try this out, can anyone confirm that for those of us who are plate-wearing classes actually wearing plate, nothing has changed?

12-07-2006, 12:46 AM	#17
Wallzak Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 367	I understand why they needed to make a change... but handled it the wrong way. Think of it this way: Put on a full suit of plate armor, stand at one end of a room and I'll shoot a paintball gun at you... it won't hurt, but you're going to have a heck of a time avoiding it... why?? because the suit weighs a few hundred pounds. Put on a pair of pants, running shoes and a t-shirt and repeat the exercise. I'm going to have a hard time hitting you... but when I do... ouch that hurts. This is reality. SOE's just took out a sense of realism to the game... good job :manmad: If a class got a unfair advantage by this... fix the class don't change the laws of physics.

12-07-2006, 03:44 AM	#18
Lairdragna Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 543	No Sam, that's not what they did.They now say, hey you normally wear plate, so you can't avoid the paintball in your plate, but it won't hurt.However, when you step put of the shower and aren't wearing the plate... well you still can't avoid the paintball, and yes, now it will hurt.

12-07-2006, 04:22 AM	#19
Wallzak Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 367	oops, sorry, reread it and realized it was being read wrong. What I meant was my analogy was how it used to be before the change... now they're defying the laws of physics by saying it doesn't matter what you wear... you will always move the same speed :smileywink:

12-07-2006, 06:26 AM	#20
EvilIguana9 General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 477	sammcduff wrote: I understand why they needed to make a change... but handled it the wrong way. Think of it this way: Put on a full suit of plate armor, stand at one end of a room and I'll shoot a paintball gun at you... it won't hurt, but you're going to have a heck of a time avoiding it... why?? because the suit weighs a few hundred pounds. Put on a pair of pants, running shoes and a t-shirt and repeat the exercise. I'm going to have a hard time hitting you... but when I do... ouch that hurts. This is reality. SOE's just took out a sense of realism to the game... good job :manmad: If a class got a unfair advantage by this... fix the class don't change the laws of physics. God I hate this myth. PLATE ARMOR DOES NOT WEIGH THAT MUCH. It weighs 45-85 lbs and is distributed evenly across the user's body, far less than what a modern soldier carries into battle. It has a great number of articulations and was custom made for each customer, meaning that it was only a minor limit on free motion. A man in full plate could run long distances, jump, duck, pretty much anything anyone else could do. In fact, full plate armor was probably less of a hinderance to movement than chain mail in many circumstances. If you think of avoidance as a measure of blows that fail to connect with the body and do damage, then plate mail will significantly increase your avoidance. Especially when you consider the fact that fighting a man with such great protection forces you to use techniques that target the few weak points, techniques that are far harder to execute than just swiping a guy with a sharpened blade.

12-07-2006, 12:02 PM	#21
Wallzak Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 367	I stand corrected... thanks for the info! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour