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02-21-2006, 07:25 PM
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#1 |
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4
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Hello Fellow Paladins! I have played my paladin for over a year now and there's a few things that bothers me because my vision of a paladin is a Tank/Combat Healer and not a gimped warrior/Slow casting cleric. We should be able to do both jobs at the same time. This is what i think could solve the problem. Faster casting times on the heals My adept 3 Hp buff is about 250 extra HP, That's just ridicolous Change pledge of armament so it works like a buff on target group member including ourselves. That way we can buff ourselves if we are tanking and put it on someone else if we are assisting. Pretty tired of being called MT buffer Remove Divine Favor and replace it with something worthwile like a Temporary defensive buff of some kind Remove Devout essences they are pointless. Just let us use our self heal every 5 minutes without the essence An offensive fighter like the berserker can buff their mitigation way higher than the defensive paladin. That just isn't right! Bringo Droo Level 60 Paladin Antonia Bayle
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02-21-2006, 09:35 PM
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#2 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15
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I play a beserker and have to say that Paladins have alot of the upper hand. They can heal,ward, rez, and probably more things I do not know of. Also seem to be able to hold mit comparable to a Warrior class aside from those 30 second buffs, I'm hoping 30 seconds isn't suppose to define a Warrior. Healing and wards make you last for a very long time,raising your health way beyond what it normally is. I don't think paladins need to be fixed, sometimes think they need have theire mit nerfed. And also the high wisdom which leads to high resistance, and what in the game doesn't cast a spell for you to attempt to resistance. I've never played a paladin, always had a high hatred for them, not sure why:-p Belive for the most part, Warrio class has more avoidance and can do more damage (I think) than a Paladin. Problem is avoidance isnt the most trustworthy of things.(Play a monk too lol)
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02-21-2006, 09:48 PM
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#3 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 548
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What the heck? We need a mit nerf? What rock have you been living under? What we have in terms of heals and wards do not make up for the HP and mit advantage warriors have. Not to mention these are things that we will be casting on who ever is tanking not just ourselves. Our one Self heal is completely useless for raids since the cast time is so long by the time you need it you are either dead or healed back to full before you can get it off assuming it is not interrupted. |
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02-21-2006, 10:54 PM
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#4 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 476
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Yeah, personally I hate the Pledge line. As for the Sacrament heal, I never understood why this is a long CT spell. IMHO, it should be instant.
Still, I love the class as it is. Any changes (besides bug fixes) would be gravy.
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Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost |
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02-22-2006, 01:04 AM
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#5 |
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General
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 477
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The cast times are fine IMO, we just need some extra focus skill (I'd throw it on the blessing line) and some resistance to stuns. If the spells were guarenteed to go off they would be overpowered. The essences I agree are totally pointless, and the sacrament heal should be a shorter cast time. IMO given the 5 minute recast it should be something of an emergency spell but not as dramatic as the LOH line. I'd set the cast time as 1 second personally, and make it a little more mana effecient.
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02-22-2006, 02:11 AM
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#6 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 794
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The main issues that need to be fix are as follows: (1) Multiple issues with how are Level 44 ressurection has been working, please increase range to 5 meters instead of 1 meter, either give us a extra out of combat revive spell or allow us to once again ressurect a non group/raid member, I have yet to see a valid reason posted by the Devs on why this was done. (2) If you want to make our decree and divine judgement line of spells interruptable, make it so it has a CHANE at being interruptable by taking damage like our other spells, not by moving and casting. If this was done by "balance" then by balance the other fighter classes cant pull with their range weapons unless standing still( i bet that flys like a lead ballon). Put it as only a chnace of interrupted by taking damage and no move ment restrictions on those 2 spells please. (3) The large heal Sacrament line need looking into, it is a nice heal versus power cost but why is the casting timer so long for a 5 minute recast and needing a secondary compenent? It origanlly was 1 second cast before live update 13 i think and would be more useful back at that casting time. Remember it requires the correct level of essences, 5 minute timer, and only applies to self for heal so it should not be considered overpowered to have it at a 1 sec casting time. (4) Anybody worried that by level 65 our goading gesture splitpaw spell will be a more effective single taunt from level 65 up than our clarion cry spell? It seems like all fighters share this problem on single taunt lines but i wonder if they could have planned better for us when we hit the high 60's. (5) I agree with many here that i have yet to see Divine Favor actually work as intended, it seems all it is good for is to double my repair costs, cause it sure as heck doesnt take the agro off of me, so i get a self rez that stifles me(a spell casting tank) for 12 secs with the penalties of dieing and such and guess what? The mob turns around and one shots me before i can do squat. Why not change this spell to do something more useful like tap the enemy health and give us some power, heck i would be satisfied if it wouls stay as is but gave us a psuedo feign death as long as we stood still. Another crazy idea is to give us a kite shield required spell that is the opposite of the guardians tower shield one. Make it to where we can absorb the next 3 spells thrown at us by the mob(AOE, DD, Barrage, etc.) and call that Divine Favor. Would sure as heck mat that spell more useful. Well that is enough for now, the idea that we cant pull and run with our 2 lines of spells is just [Removed for Content] me off, have a nice day guys...
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02-22-2006, 02:21 AM
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#7 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Posts: 761
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It would be nice if Sigil of Heroism still didn't cancel Amends, and Divine Favor actually worked once.
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02-22-2006, 06:15 AM
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#8 |
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 222
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I could whine about the casting times on our spells, but I have a better idea:Essences - How about instead of getting rid of these, SOE expands on them and makes more of our spells trigger off these. Not current spells, but new spells. Preferably buffs that have a chance to proc really helpful effects.I'm thinking you could do this with three spells:(Note: ignore the exact numbers - this is just for an idea. You could balance the exact numbers so this stuff isn't overpowered, but very beneficial to our class). (1) A ward that stacks with our castable ward (so you don't run into "can't cast" errors when the proc is active). Takes one concentration slot to cast this buff, has a 15% chance to cast a good-sized Ward and consumes a Divine Essence upon doing so. If no essences, then no proc.(2) A mitigation buff. Again, takes one concentration slot and has something like a 15% chance to proc a 20-second mitigation buff. Consumes a Divine Essence on proc.(3) A heal buff. Same deal - one concentration and consumes an essence for a 5% chance to proc a 500 hit point heal (or whatever size isn't overpowered).Now, buy making these take a concentration slot you would then have to decide when to use them - and the essence would further restrict you from having them on all the time. They'd be situational buffs - perfect for when you have to MT that tough mob, but not something you'd want to have active all the time.Whaddya think?
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02-22-2006, 07:49 PM
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#9 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 637
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the biggest problem i see is getting interrupted over and over again even though my focus is maxed...the interrupts need to be reduced a little... the devout sacrament heal recast timer needs to be a bit shorter (3 minutes maybe?) divine judgement line used to be able to be cast while moving then was removed when LU 13 hit, then they went back on their decision and made it so you could cast it on the move again, and now they've removed the ability to do that again...not trying to sound like an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] or anything but please make up your mind on that spell line... the stun on ancient wrath needs to actually stun a little bit more than it does, it doesn't have to last long, but it needs to actually stun more...it is almost essential in a tough fight to fire that off so we can get our ward to fire off... change the rez back to out of group...it's the most irritating change that i've seen to pallys...i hate walking up to a corpse or watching someone die at my feet and i can't rez them...i saw someone running from a frostfin in EF the other night and i made a beeline down the beach to try and save them, i didn't make it in time and they died at my feet...i stood there for 5 minutes while they sorted out their group crap to get me an invite to rez the poor troll...that is really annoying...
other than those few things i think the class is in pretty good shape compared to how gimped we were pre LU 13... the achievement stuff may make up for our shortcommings since some of them reduce casting timers and such... Message Edited by g0thiCiCecReaM on 02-22-200608:49 AM |
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02-22-2006, 08:15 PM
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#10 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 548
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I'm not entirely sure that Goading Gesture will ever replace your single target taunt. With taunt resists we need to make sure taunts land. Master I Clarion Cry is 48% Harder to resist while Goading Gesture is only 28% That is a 20% difference. Since I don't have the number I won't post them. But Basically if you look at 10 taunts you would add up the min values and the max values and get the min per 10 and the max per 10. Goading Gesture because of the 10% proc would basically give you 11 taunts in the same time frame. But because of the resist factor remove 2 of them since 20% more would be resisted. It was already pretty close I think Goading Gesture would just bearly edge out Clarion Cry at 65 but when you remove two I don't even think it will be more hate at 70. Now this is less important if you are fighting group mobs as they will not resist as much but against raid mobs that extra 20% is a very big deal.
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02-22-2006, 10:29 PM
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#11 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Posts: 761
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well they said Sigil of Heroism is fixed... AGAIN.. i guess we'll find out soon
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02-22-2006, 10:58 PM
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#12 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 14
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Last night I put Amends on an Assasin. Aggro kept being lost to the warrior. Today I put it on a Wizzy, keep losing it to the monk. Thought ok maybe sigil is messed up. reapplied amends and still keep losing aggro. I dont know what the deal is, but somethign isnt right.
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Ginerian lvl 70 Paladin Antonia Bayle |
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02-22-2006, 11:23 PM
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#13 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 14
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Just noticed just about all our stuns are 1sec duration now.... Blessed Rush - 1 sec Destroy Will - 1 sec Righteous Dash - 1 sec
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Ginerian lvl 70 Paladin Antonia Bayle |
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02-23-2006, 04:46 PM
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#14 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,425
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Can we have screenies of this:This would render our self heals/wards pretty much useless against anything higher than a green con mob; (being how our cast time is over 1sec)
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02-23-2006, 05:23 PM
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#15 |
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General
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 46
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I've just jumped onto KoS for the the first time tonight - and boy I had forgotten how interruptable we are =/ On the whole I'm happy with my pally but the interrupts seem to be out of whack - and its thoroughly annoying when the interrupt comes right near the end of a long spell cast
 Apart from that lets hope Amends/Sigil *IS* fixed.Oh and I would like a 200% increase in mana thanks!!  Loverat's EQ2 Bits (jewellery stats and help files!)
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02-23-2006, 08:17 PM
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#16 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 117
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ya i dont see why we need a mit nerf ... lol lowest on totem poll now as it is for plate wearers  ... that also goes with avoidance we are the lowest there also ... but i dont care much about the avoidance ... as for our pledge line (someone else stated) woo hoo that just proves we are nothing but a second tank ... dont get me wrong ive tanked EVERYTHING in T6 ... and did it fine but we still dont add up to what a Guardian is or even close since we shouldnt totally add up
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02-23-2006, 09:41 PM
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#17 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Posts: 761
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ya I think Sigil is fixed now, I had amends on a warlock, never lost agro to anyone all night, and I used sigl a lot... except I did loose a lot of agro towards the end to a zerker who I'm almost possitive was taunting as well for some odd reason, but that dont really count
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02-24-2006, 05:02 AM
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#18 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 220
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"Faster casting times on heals" I had a thought on the commute this morning - ALL of our wards and heals should operate like the Lay On Hands line in terms of cast time. The whole hand waving thing for several seconds just doesn't fit the Paladin. It should be, raise your hand, say a one-word prayer and boom you got your spell. Before you all scream overpowered remember that we can't cast when stunned right now, nor should we be able to. If it were like that when the zerkers come up in here posting we got this and we got that it'd be like yeah ok you're right. As it is now, what we got can only be relied upon 50% of the time in the best of circumstances, alot less of the time in most cases... and it really takes the fun out of the game. Especially when compounding that long existing problem with the new problems of movement interrupts on our pulling spells. Another thing I've come to realize is that self-healing while tanking for a group is a great way to lose aggro. Between the cast times and the interrupts chances are you're going to end up healing someone else by the time the spell actually goes off successfully. I think the Focus skill is totally whack. I got interrupted on a call of qeynos because I had a poison running that dealt .1% of my total health. That's just not right, unless there are poisons that specifically cause interrupts when they go off? Yet another drop in the ocean from a very disillusioned pally/ranger player who basically is thinking this whole deal is a waste of time money and frustration. |
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02-24-2006, 02:19 PM
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#19 |
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 41
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Yeah im tired of being looked down on as a freaking mt buffer, we have aprox the same taunts (if not a bit extra) than zerkers, but their ability to do nice dps gives them an advantage as they hold the aggro better, we can pull, but we need more damage over time spells so that we can keep it, i wish we could at least have a faster reuse on those taunts, i mean, my most reliable taunt is the bloody shield bash (at adept 3) over my master 1 single target... thats not right, they gotta fix that, or at least make the recast a bit quicker. also, i love our spells, the ward especially... but in a raid circumstance we have a lot of spells that have procs that dont affect epics, now is it jsut me or does that make our place in a raid diminished? not only are we seen as the mt buffer because of our mit buff, but we are also relatively useless if we have to sit back to avoid ae's...
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02-24-2006, 02:20 PM
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#20 |
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 41
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yes i did notice that and i was [Removed for Content]!! that was one thing that we had that made us special Message Edited by Ultimac on 02-24-200601:21 AM
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02-24-2006, 03:47 PM
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#21 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 215
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Good news this is a Display only bug that has affected all stun skills in the game and should be corrected tomorrow I believe. Which means although it was saying they were only 1 sec they were actually longer. |
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02-25-2006, 01:18 PM
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#22 |
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General
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 45
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Hello all, I believe people are ignorant on just how little we have in the means of wards and heals. Are main heal has a 15 minute recast so its a 1 time deal, then poof all gone. Our wards are nice, but over all 1 hit can cancel it quickly. For the mana pool tank we are still lacking, I mean until LU20 I had as much if not less then the guards and zerks my toons level... We have no Mit buff and the resists we have are ok but there not anything speacial. The problem is we are looked at as more of a utility tank and to be honest with you thats a crock. I didnt create a pally to buff a guard or act as a back up healer, I rolled a pallys because in my eyes they were a knight or holy warrior mabey not the best but able to handle the load. I did alot of main tanking the T6 raid content and what kept me alive and the rest of the raid was good old Mitigation. Not the wards or heals because those mobs hit hard my ward was canceld after 1 auto attack and the only heal I used was a 1 last chance to keep my toon upright. Pallys and SK,s are both plate tanks so they should both have a mit buff or AA line to improve mit. Avoidance and higher hp would be nice but I consider it a trade off for having my resists abit better. I understand that pallys will never have the same mit or higher then a Guard or zerk but if we can at least get our Mit close to the cap with potions and fabled gear then pallys would be set in my eyes... If this doesnt happen then pallys might as well become healers period, because the tank rolls will be left to the Guards and zerkers in the high content. Making a pallys in game life boring and mundane... Let the gear sort out the tanks |
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02-27-2006, 09:29 PM
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#23 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 637
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02-28-2006, 06:39 PM
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#24 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,585
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Agreed. We get far less HP and mit than either guardians or berzerkers. As for our heals and wards, unless you splurge to get Adept III's or find a Master, they're not going to be very effective. Being able to heal and ward definitely helps us some, but those abilities don't make up for the huge lack of HP and mitigation we already face. Sure, my ward protects me from 800 points of damage, but what's that compared to the extra 3k HP and 1k mit that the guardian next to me has?
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Elhonas Warden of Mayhem, Antonia Bayle |
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02-28-2006, 09:02 PM
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#25 |
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Lord
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 38
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Wow, I really am surprised to see so much doom and gloom in here. I agree our class isn't perfect, and I'd like to see them add 1 more mit buff, but I have to disagree with people who think we are in trouble. I think they key problem is one of education, Most people just assume I can't tank and then are pleasantly surprised after the Guardian logs or whatever and they let me tank, it usually goes better.....I have been in plenty of groups with similar leveled guardians, monks, SK's, and berserkers. Berserkers are a bit better, but I think this will be adressed in a future nerfing, their DPS should not be that good if they are also one of the best tanks. Monks are hit and miss, they can stand there all day and deal great damage, but if they have 1 bad avoidance round they go down fast (Monk is a great Amends target though, heh). SK seems in a similar position to us, they are fairly self sufficient, able to hold single aggro pretty well, but I still like us when the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hits the fan, we have more options. Guardians get a bunch of Mit, but to be honest I've never been impressed when grouping with similar lvl/geared guardians. I'm 63 now and have sucessfully tanked heroics up to 68 and several raid mobs. I think that people need to stop looking at adept III's as optional and consider them necessary, with the right spells and carefully chosen gear (yay we can use Tower Shields now!) you're a pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good tank. The trick is convincing others, and that's not going to happen if all you ever hear about is pallies whining that we're underpowered. Also, about the heals and the interrupts, I don't know what you guys are doing, but I have little/no trouble with interrupts. I've cast res mid-fight while tanking many times with no interrupts, wards and heals, I have more problems with fizzles than intterupts..... Just my 2 Cents...if you want to see a screwed up class go look at Ranger...I had to retire my poor 55 ranger due to mass suckage after LU 20. |
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02-28-2006, 11:00 PM
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#26 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 794
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For me Graven55 it is not doom and gloom, overall i like my class very well, to the point that i have never had a alt and have no intention to roll one. Looking at my played time you can see i am not a caual player or somebody that just rolled a paladin for the cool factor. What I think may not be what most think but I have to say that reducing cating time on our sacrament line of spells and giving us a out of combat revive or changing ressurection back is what most if not all palllies can agree on. The movement restriction on our judgement line i can live with as "balance" issue on spell casters. Here however are ideas i like from other posters: Change our armament line to also be a self buff mit bonus at half the mitigation gained if we target ourselves. Example is on our pledge of arnament adept 3 we give the target 372 mitigation at a cost of 531, if we self target ourselves it becomes a bonus mitigation of 186 mitigation with no penalty so we have a choice on what we want to do with this spell. Here is a idea from myself: Change our Divine favor to be like the tower of stone with a twist, requires a kite shield and will absorb the next 3 non melee damage attacks to the crusader, this would include spells directed at caster and aoes in range of caster. Like the guardian spell it would damage the shield. Give it the same recast and casting times as their spell. I would think this spell would be more of a benefit than the spell we have now that stifles us as a spell casting fighter for 12 secs and rarely takes the mob off of us. Just a couple of ideas to toss up for pallies to talk about and maybe devs to see.
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02-28-2006, 11:08 PM
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#27 |
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 222
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Agreed! I have noticed this as well (and said the same thing on this board before). A lot of our problem is simply educating other players that we're good enough to do the job.I don't consider our class broken or inadequate in any way. Biggest challenge I face is coming up with the coin to upgrade my spells and CA's and coming up with the raid opportunities to get the right gear. Equipped properly I think we're pretty fine. |
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03-01-2006, 08:23 PM
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#28 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 220
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You know, I've heard other people say interrupts are not a problem. Here we are 3 or 4 months later and I still don't see how that can be... I've tried cloth armor to increase avoidance, plate armor to increase mitigation, chain armor for balance... no luck... what is it about your pally that prevents interrupts? I'm not talking about single target encounters. You're right there, no problems because we have enough stuns to cover our casts. I'm talking about group encounters and multiple group encounters. For example, in Statue Court... 2 encounters there and you've got no chance - you're going down fast with at least 3 or 4 interrupts in a row. It would be nice to be able to at least have a shot at getting out of a bad situation like that... especially now that you have to practically be a surgeon to pull only 1 encounter in places like Sanctum. And its not so much interrupts alone. We focus on interrupts because they are the most annoying... in that you can go 1.9 seconds of casting a ward or a heal and then get interrupted. You can try again and have the same thing happen. At that point you're crying for mercy. However, if it were just that no big deal. But that combines with fizzles and stuns makes it so you can't say what we lack in miti, health and avoidance is made up with wards and heals. When tanking, our healing abilities are dubious at best dangerous at worst. The good news, for me at least, is the STA AA Hammer Ground AE stun. Been drooling at that for about a week now. The only thing is the duration says 1.7 seconds and the recast is 1 minute. Does anybody know if the duration goes up as the ability gets upgraded? 1.7 seconds won't even cover a single ward but at least it might cover an evac. Message Edited by robusticus on 03-01-200607:41 AM Message Edited by robusticus on 03-01-200607:41 AM |
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03-01-2006, 09:18 PM
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#29 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 637
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very well said after playing around with the first AA we get i found that when duoing with my fury friend, if she keeps me just under 50% my fizzles, interrupts and the duration of stuns is significantly less...it's a wonderful thing... most of the time i can tank better than half the guardians i grouped with ad3's are definitly necessary...with our ward i can stay up longer with a fury as a healer than any other healing class and stay in a comfortable HP range while doing it...for soloing upgrading the ward and all the heals is definitely necessary...i took refusal of faith master 2 since my ae taunt was ad3 and there isn't too much of a difference (and i'm doing fine with the ad3 on keeping hate) and that helps a lot soloing with it's high damage output and not too long of a recast... i just want my rez changed back /cry |
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03-01-2006, 11:44 PM
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#30 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 125
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I disagree with your suggestions and thoughts about Paladins. The thing is...warriors are SUPPOSED to be better tanks, therefore, even if our heals and wards do not make up for the short duration buffs they have (which I think they do), then why does it matter? Their only role is tanking or protecting groups, whereas we can play a healer, dps, and tank...which would make it pointless for anybody to play a warrior if Paladins could take damage just as good as those classes while having 10 times more utility. Message Edited by jb- on 03-01-200610:45 AM
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