Latest News on the Paladin Combat Changes

[Rochir]

This screenshot should give you an diea of the effect of the offensive stance, Implacable Wrath has on a semi-twinked level 40 High Elf Paladin.   You can see the descriptions of Shining Beacon, Implacable Wrath and Pious Belief.     The difference in dps between the offensive and defensive stances is about 30-60% depending on your character configuration.   I have run combat stats and the dps was a minimum of 30% higher and as much as 60% higher with the offensive stance than the defensive stance. There is a comparable but opposite difference in defensive capability.   Here is the screenie:

 

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a290/blackweb1/EQ2_000030.jpg

 

The Adept III version of Implacable wrath boosts this characters by 41 intelligence to 100.     I would say that if you want DPS, the Adept III version of the offensive stance is a good investment.   I know of no single item that could boost int by 41.

Message Edited by Rochir on 09-09-2005 08:53 AM

[Rochir]

Just logged onto Test to check the latest changes.   My character there is a 40 Paladin.   He almost got his tail kicked by a normal level 37^ mob when using the offensive stance.    The mob took about 3/4 of his health.    The damage he did was barely more than the normal mob, 3 levels lower than him.   All of his spells and CAs are Adept III.

[Kendricke]

Why would you use an offensive stance in a soloing situation?  On Beta, I only utilize defensive stance in a solo or MT situation, and switch to offensive when I'm an offtank or DPS role.

I mean, it's POSSIBLE to solo utilizing offensive stance, but it's certainly not going to be efficient over the long haul by any means.

 

[Rochir]

---

Kendricke wrote:

Why would you use an offensive stance in a soloing situation?  On Beta, I only utilize defensive stance in a solo or MT situation, and switch to offensive when I'm an offtank or DPS role.

I mean, it's POSSIBLE to solo utilizing offensive stance, but it's certainly not going to be efficient over the long haul by any means.

---

Because when using the defensive stance while soloing is slooooow and boooooring.    Its a game, remember?   It is supposed to be fun, not a long, slow boring grind.   The defensive stance is very time-inefficient when soloing or duoing.

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

hmn...im gonna have to agree with blackochir on this one. I use benediction when im tanking....when im soloing or "dps", I use all my offensive skills, because im trying to kill as many mobs as possible is as fast a time. IMO defensive stances should be needed mostly when tanking heroics or tough lvl cons...I should NOT have to use a defensive stance when im soloing a solo con mob THREE lvls below me. 

 

Whats the point of stances if you have to use your defensive stance in almost every situation? so it takes me weeks to lvl because im doing ever worse craptastic DPS?  We are tanks, plate wearing tanks...so that being said we should use a sword and shield almost all the time, because if we strap on a 2 hander and use our offensive stance, we might get killed?

Thats a sad state of affairs for a Paly. If thats the point, might as well remove our ability to use a 2 hander. Since we're not DPS and we cant solo using one, then whats the point.

 

No, theres something seriously wrong with that. I would agree that we should take more damage when in offense mode. I dont agree that we get the results Blackochir is reporting on a mob 3 lvls lower that us, even when using an offensive stance.

 

 

Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on 09-09-2005 05:36 AM

[Rochir]

---

uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:

hmn...im gonna have to agree with blackochir on this one. I use benediction when im tanking....when im soloing or "dps", I use all my offensive skills, because im trying to kill as many mobs as possible is as fast a time. IMO defensive stances should be needed mostly when tanking heroics or tough lvl cons...I should NOT have to use a defensive stance when im soloing a solo con mob THREE lvls below me. 

 

 Whats the point of stances if you have to use your defensvie stance in almost every situation? so it takes me weeks to lvl because im doing craptastic DPS? No, theres something seriously wrong with that. I would agree that we should take more damage when in offense mode. I dont agree that we get the results Blackochir is reporting on a mob 3 lvls lower that us, even when using an offensive stance.

Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on 09-09-2005 05:28 AM

---

Remember, the int boost from the offensive stance was increased by 20 from 41 to 61.   Would you not expect a noticable increase in DPS from a 30% boost in int on the offensive stance?   What is the point of continuing to buff int if it has little or no effect on damage?   There was also no difference in damage at all from the offensive stance in the spell descriptions.   Maybe that is by design but it should be changed if it is.   We should be able to see the difference in spell and CA damage when trying different buffs and items.   The difference in slashing and crushing damage between the offensive and defensive stances is still significant.   It is the int buff that does not appear to be working.

Again, this may be due to stronger mobs but the effect is the same.   A gaurdian in my guild who is in beta told me that the mobs in DoF were "resisting everything".   I wanted to log on and check it out.   From what I could tell, she is right.

There could be several reasons for this:

1.  Heroic mobs mis-labeled as normal.

2.  An across-the-board buff of all mobs, at least those in the Feerrot.

3.  A significant nerf in Paladin damage, avoidance and mitigation,  including a nerf in the damage buff due to int.

4.  All of the above.

I am going to log on and check again.

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

"Simple stats, I tested with 2 toons, self buffed with no armor in defensive stance.

1) The guardian has about 500HP more than the paladin (3500 vs 301. Add extra stats from bow to that

2) Guardian has more avoidance (31.5% vs 22.7%)

3) Guardian when casting Anchor and commanding presence has about 1000 more mitigation, but only for a limited time as recast time if high

So we have less HP, less avoidance, less mitigation because of buffs, and we do the same dps.....yep that sounds about right o.O

Again, this has to be at least the 10th post asking what the Paladin's role is going to be in the combat revamp. So if anyone has MG's ear, or another dev's can we please get an answer.

Our heals and wards have been increased, but all of our defense compared to other plate tanks has been nerfed."

 

I guess thats pretty much about right. This is from a post from Meridian in the combat testing feedback.  So umm, what exactly did we get in return for being the lowest tank on the tanking rankings? For the sake of argument, how much more damage do we take if our avoidance is that much lower? and our mitigation? Do the heals and wards compensate for this?? if the only thing that keeps us up is our heals and wards, the dev thats in charge of palys needs to be reassigned to the mail room.

This sheds a light on our inability to use offensive stances efficiently. If I have to worry about using my power to keep me up, instead of using it to fire some of my "DPS" skills, then theres a problem.

I can just see it now..

GRP Leader: Ok we need a healer...theres a Paly LFG, get em, quick!"

GRP member #2:  Great, now we need a tank... OMG how lucky! Theres an LFG conjurer over there

GRP Leader: But hes 2 lvls lower than the Paly

GRP member #2: dont matter, his pet tanks better.

Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on 09-09-2005 06:03 AM

[Rochir]

I logged onto test and there was a sizable patch download.   The first thing I noticed was that I can respec.  I didnt do it yet, I wanted to try the combat changes without all the attribute and racial buffs.

 

IT LOOKS LIKE MOST OF THE ISSUES I LISTED ABOVE HAVE BEEN FIXED!  :smileyvery-happy:

 

The damage on my spells and CAs was back up to where it was before or even higher.   RoG Adept III now does a very respectable 443 -738 damage.  My AoE, Unyielding Conviction Adept III now does now does 139 - 232 damage which is more than Oath Strikeat 87-146.   Imho, that should be reversed.    We need that single hit damage when soloing and duoing and we should not have to resort to using AoEs when soloing to get decent damage.   AoEs are a good way to lose your shard when soloing.

 

Mitigation when using the offensive stance is lower but that is probably because I did not respec.    Mitigation and avoidance in combat seems to be working like it should again, even when using the offensive stance.   Single hit damage is till too weak but damage across the board seems to be back up to where it what or higher.   Oh and another thing, Implacable Wrath Adept III now boosts int by a whopping 69 (please dont nerf that!).   The spell damage buff due to int seems to be working now but you cant see it in the spell description.

 

I am waiting to respec until DoF on test as we only get a chance to do it once.   If you play on test, you might want to wait as well. 

 

So, well done EQ2 Team, you fixed all that stuff fast   We have a few remaining major issues:

 

1.  Spell and CA descriptions do not reflect the changes in our stats, buffs and debuffs.   They should reflect the actual damage we do due to our buffs and debuffs of our stats.    As it is now, I cant see any difference in my spells and CAs due to my stance, ring buffs etc.   There may be a difference in combat but I cant see it in the description.   Combat and the description should at least be in the same ball park.   I keep turning my offensive stance and ring buffs on and off but I cant see any difference in the description :smileymad:

 

2.  Our primary single hit spells and CAs should do more damage, not less than our AoEs.    AoEs can often do more harm than good when fighting in solo, in groups or raids.   As it is now, if we want decent damage outside of RoG, we have to use AoEs.    That is a good way to lose your shard or the shard of your group.   Imho, if the damage from our primary spells and CAs were swapped with our AoEs, we would be in pretty good shape.   For example the damage of Oath Strike which does 87-146 damage per hit should swapped with Flatedge Twirl  which does 169-282 damage per hit.   That would have little or no effect on dps but it would make it much easier for us to manage agro. 

 

3.  Normal single^ mobs are still showing the heroic ( ) when you point at them, that needs to be fixed.   When you click on them, the correct border is shown in the upper left.

 

4.  We need to be able to cast our shield avoidance buff (Aegis of Hope Etc) on ourselves.   That shield/avoidance buff is a necessity when using the offensive stance.

 

I would like to respec and check what a fully buffed level 40 Paladin is like but I am going to wait for DoF

 

 

Message Edited by Rochir on 09-09-2005 08:48 AM

[Lifeswor]

Rather than using Offensive or Defensive stances when soloing have you tried using no stance? I did for a while and it worked fine for me. Didn't do any parsing tho so can't comment on actual numbers. A little trick Rochir is to cast your squire, cast Aegis on the squire (and then get rid of squire if want). Voila, defense boost all the time. Don't know if it was intentional, but it works on live, didn't work on beta for some time, and now works on beta again. Also yes, I do believe our wards are supposed to compensate for reduced mitigation/avoidance/defense. Our wards are actually quite powerful. Only thing is I would like to see them with a shorter cast time, as something so vital to our tanking ability shouldn't be so volatile (interrupts, fizzles etc.).

[Kale]

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Lifesworde wrote:Rather than using Offensive or Defensive stances when soloing have you tried using no stance? . . . Also yes, I do believe our wards are supposed to compensate for reduced mitigation/avoidance/defense. Our wards are actually quite powerful. Only thing is I would like to see them with a shorter cast time, as something so vital to our tanking ability shouldn't be so volatile (interrupts, fizzles etc.).

---

Yeah, it seems like people are misunderstanding the purpose of the stances. The offensive stance is not designed to turn you into a Berserker and allow you to mow down mobs solo (hence the loss of defense). It's an ideal spell for when you are in a group or raid, and you are not the MT. If you look at our stances, we now have a stance for every situation: MT: Defensive Stance Non MT: Offensive Stance Solo: No Stance (Neutral) Also yes, I do believe our wards are supposed to compensate for reduced mitigation/avoidance/defense. Exactly. That is the trade-off for being a Paladin. We are not a 'straight-up' fighter like a Guardian. We actually have to use our skills to do our job. Wards and Heals are part of the equation.

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

I disagree. I picked a Paladin to be a tank. If I have to rely on healing and warding to keep myself up, then the class itself has skewed too much to one side. I have never seen a game yet, where the Paladin relied healer skills to do his job.

 

There are healer classes and there are fighter class. We are a fighter class. What is the definition of a straight up fighter? is a monk or a bruiser a straight fighter? What exactly makes a char a straight up fighter?

 

Dont get me wrong, I like the concept of tanking by using different methods. What I dont like is having to do two jobs at once. I dont mind having a little healing. What I do mind is having to rely on them just to stay alive. Thats weak. I am a plate wearing Paladin. If i wanted less hit points and more DPS I would have rolled a scout. When I bring up DPS its in the context of what we have given up for what we have gained.

 

What have we gained vs what have we lost? To me the trade off is one sided, and Im not the only Paly who thinks this way. Its sad when people say those of us who are upset picked the wrong class, or are somehow noobs.

 

I picked a fighter to TANK. If I wanted a healer I would have rolled one. Let them do their healing and let us do our tanking. No other Tank has as big a crutch as we do. No other tank is as dependent on power as we are, because when we are out of power, kiss your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] goodbye. There are named and raid mobs out there who drain power...

 

Some of you might say thats a good thing. That makes us different. IMO it makes us lesser tanks. Its all about damage spikes, ladies and gents..yep, those damage spikes. The same reason why avoidance tanks were not considered very good tanks. We will take some pretty mean damage spikes..because when a mob hits you for 1000k or 1500 k, its gonna go through that ward real easy..and thats just normal mobs...wait till a raid mob smacks you for 2k or 3k or more.

 

Our avoidance is the lowest of any tank, our parry has been nerfed, our blocking has been nerfed, our mitigation is the lowest of any tank, and our hit points are the lowest of any tank.  This translates into bad news, heals and wards or not. I predicted this trend and I was hoping I would be wrong.

 

Look at my post history and you'll see what im talking about. I stated that as we leveled, other tanks would get better skills, while we got more and more healing skills...lo and behold its true. If we have to rely on heals and wards at lvl 60, then what happens at lvl 70 or lvl 80? Will our hitpoints keep getting lower and lower, comparitively speaking? See the direction, while other tanks get skills to tank, we get healer skills to keep us alive. I would not be surprised in the least if we got a reactive heal soon.

 

I did not choose to be a hybrid tank. We went from DPS/ tank hybrids to tank/healer hybrids. Super. Thats just at 60..cant wait till we hit 70 and we get grp reactives, regens, and whatnot.

[djhbeek]

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uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:

I disagree. I picked a Paladin to be a tank. If I have to rely on healing and warding to keep myself up, then the class itself has skewed too much to one side. I have never seen a game yet, where the Paladin relied healer skills to do his job.

 Well ... i'll agree that the extent to which we rely on heals is a bit much ... (especially solo).

There are healer classes and there are fighter class. We are a fighter class. What is the definition of a straight up fighter? is a monk or a bruiser a straight fighter? What exactly makes a char a straight up fighter?

This is kinda like asking whether an apple or an orange is a straight up fruit.  they are all fruits, just different.

 

Dont get me wrong, I like the concept of tanking by using different methods. What I dont like is having to do two jobs at once. I dont mind having a little healing. What I do mind is having to rely on them just to stay alive. Thats weak. I am a plate wearing Paladin. If i wanted less hit points and more DPS I would have rolled a scout. When I bring up DPS its in the context of what we have given up for what we have gained.

Agree.

 

What have we gained vs what have we lost? To me the trade off is one sided, and Im not the only Paly who thinks this way. Its sad when people say those of us who are upset picked the wrong class, or are somehow noobs.

Well, i would say they are noobs, 'cause it might of been the right class for them then, but not now ...

 

I picked a fighter to TANK. If I wanted a healer I would have rolled one. Let them do their healing and let us do our tanking. No other Tank has as big a crutch as we do. No other tank is as dependent on power as we are, because when we are out of power, kiss your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] goodbye. There are named and raid mobs out there who drain power...

Exactly:  this is my #1 complaint.  I'm typically the first person to oop in a fight unless im hanging back not doing much, and most pallies i've watched are pretty much in the same boat.

 

Some of you might say thats a good thing. That makes us different. IMO it makes us lesser tanks. Its all about damage spikes, ladies and gents..yep, those damage spikes. The same reason why avoidance tanks were not considered very good tanks. We will take some pretty mean damage spikes..because when a mob hits you for 1000k or 1500 k, its gonna go through that ward real easy..and thats just normal mobs...wait till a raid mob smacks you for 2k or 3k or more.

 

Our avoidance is the lowest of any tank, our parry has been nerfed, our blocking has been nerfed, our mitigation is the lowest of any tank, and our hit points are the lowest of any tank.  This translates into bad news, heals and wards or not. I predicted this trend and I was hoping I would be wrong.

 Yah i'm really fearful to see what i find on Beta when i try it out tonight.  Almost entirely due to mitigation concerns.  ... we will see =/

Look at my post history and you'll see what im talking about. I stated that as we leveled, other tanks would get better skills, while we got more and more healing skills...lo and behold its true. If we have to rely on heals and wards at lvl 60, then what happens at lvl 70 or lvl 80? Will our hitpoints keep getting lower and lower, comparitively speaking? See the direction, while other tanks get skills to tank, we get healer skills to keep us alive. I would not be surprised in the least if we got a reactive heal soon.

 

I did not choose to be a hybrid tank. We went from DPS/ tank hybrids to tank/healer hybrids. Super. Thats just at 60..cant wait till we hit 70 and we get grp reactives, regens, and whatnot.

Ok, here i disagree ... we ARE hybrid tanks, but at least DPS was somewhat useful in raids, our healing is much less useful in raids.  In groups i think we still might be ok, but from what i'm hearing (and this fits with what i've seen on test), soloing tough mobs we may be chain-warding ... I don't mind the heals/wards as much as you do (i've read some of your other posts).  but i will have to agree, the balance seems off yet ...

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Message Edited by djhbeek on 09-09-2005 04:03 PM

[lisasdarr]

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uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:

hmn...im gonna have to agree with blackochir on this one. I use benediction when im tanking....when im soloing or "dps", I use all my offensive skills, because im trying to kill as many mobs as possible is as fast a time. IMO defensive stances should be needed mostly when tanking heroics or tough lvl cons...I should NOT have to use a defensive stance when im soloing a solo con mob THREE lvls below me. 

 

---

The point of having multiple stances is that you can use the most appropriate:

• Against lower level mobs use the offensive stance to kill them quick and rely on level and armour to keep you safe
• Agaisnt even con mobs use no stance, no negatives to defence and no benefit to attack
• Against higher level mobs use defensive, it will take longer but you will be more sure of winning in the end.

Of course this may not always be the best way depending on many things, but the point is be flexible and use whatever approach works best.

[TooSwi]

I don't know who said we have heals and wards to "compensate" for our lack of true tanking buffs, because that person is a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].  As far as I know, I SHOULD be able to solo crap 3 levels lower than me when I'm in my offensive stance.  The changes they have made to Paladins are just stupid as [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].  You will NEVER see a Pally tanking an epic mob.  Ever.  We get all of these nice new taunts and crap, but when it comes down to it we are purely ment for a group, not a raid.  These changes should be set around raiding, not soloing or 1 grouping.  We don't have the buffs and [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] required to be able to tank a raid mob, no matter what group setup.  I can tank normal group mobs with the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]tiest of groups no problem.  Paladins are now for the "casual gamer", we don't have a place in raids anymore which is complete bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].

[Majorminor]

just wait untill the last few patches on beta hit test, Everything is borked over there.  Solo blue mobs are terrorizing many fighters.  Mit is way down, Kite shield base is now 10% /laugh

 

beta patch notes 09/08/05

*** Desert of Flames ***

Tradeskills:
- Scaled hide plate's primary component is now Refined Scaled Leather.
- Cambric Thread's primary component is now Saguaro Roots.
- Ardent dye now calls for Unodecanoid Reagent.
- Chamomile mixutre calls for uses Raw Chamomile.
- Meso Oil now calls for Sandalwood.
- Cerulean dye now calls for Duodecanoid.
- Candied Pear now calls for Refined Clove.
- Golden Eye drink should now accept Raw Macadamia.
- Pear Malted Milk should now accept Prickly Malt.
- Chocolate Pear should now accept Candied Pear.
- Artichoke Kalish should now accept Roasted Artichoke.
- Pear Cheesecake should now accept Cream Cheese.
- The Ironwood Buckler recipe now calls for level 50 leather components.
- The Ironwood Roundshield recipe now calls for level 50 leather components.
- The Sandalwood Buckler recipe now calls for level 50 leather components.
- The Sandalwood Roundshield recipe now calls for level 50 leather components.
- The three arrow recipes now ask for Sandcloth fletching.
- The Flute and Lute instrument recipes now ask for Sandalcloth.


*** Guild Bank ***

- You can now set the coin withdrawl limit for the guild bank.


*** Dueling ***

- There is now a countdown timer initiated after a duel is accepted.
- DoTs casted by pets should now cancel after a challenger has surrendered.
- Results will now appear if the duel is ended by surrender or one challenger leaving the ring for too long.
- /duel_surrender is now /surrender


*** UI Files Modified ***

eq2ui_arenachampions_arenamain.xml
eq2ui_commonelements.xml
eq2ui_specialelements.xml
eq2ui_windowelements.xml
eq2ui_loginscene.xml
imagessplashbkg.dds


*** Combat Changes ***

- Experience gain has been increased at all levels of play.
- Combat in the first 10 levels of the game should feel smoother again.
- A player character's base chance to avoid being interrupted while casting has improved.
- Root and charm spells that can be periodically resisted now have more frequent chances to break.
- Additional redundant spell upgrades (invis, see invis, etc.) have been removed.
- New spells are no longer automatically granted from levels 51 to 60. Players will need to find ways of obtaining them.
- Focus will automatically train to the max skill level for old characters that did not previously use focus. This should reduce the amount of interrupts you may have been seeing yesterday.

Traits, Traditions, Tactics, and Training
- All previously chosen character specialization abilities have been removed. You can select new options after logging in.
 
NPCs
- Common solo and heroic NPCs are much less likely to use spells and combat arts that hit for extremely high instant damage.
- NPCs that have two or more down arrows now have slightly reduced health and damage output.
- NPC Bruisers and Monks will no longer mend themselves.
 
Items
- Arcane resist values (Heat, Cold, Poison, Disease, Magic, Divine, and Mental) on all items have been increased by 10%.
- Avoidance on cloth armor has been increased.
- Uktrl’s Round Shield of Striking, Utkrl’s Round Shield of Harmony, and Zalak’s Kite Shield of Dominion now provide more appropriate skill bonuses.
- Polished Granite Tomahawk, Manastone, Ancient Combine Great Flail, and Screaming Mace had their effects adjusted.
- Ammunition now takes player level into account and should con properly.
 
Haste
- Item-based haste effects no longer stack with each other. You will gain the best haste effect present on any one item. For example, if you wear a belt that provides 15% haste and a bracelet that gives 20%, you will receive 20% total worn haste.
- Haste gained from item procs will not stack with itself or other haste procs. That is, if you have two weapons equipped that both proc haste, the effects will not stack. However, proc haste does stack with worn haste and spell haste.
- Spell haste stacks with both worn haste and proc haste. Haste spells from different lines will stack with each other. For example, Monk self haste stacks with their group haste buff and the haste gained from their offensive stance, since these are all different spell lines. Bard haste stacks with Enchanter haste, but two Bard or Enchanter haste spells from the same line will not stack with each other.
- In summary, haste stacking works as follows: 1 haste item + 1 haste proc + 1 haste spell per line.

Berserker changes:
- Vision of Madness now has a different effect.
- Open Wounds scrolls now scribe correctly.
 
Brigand changes:
- Double Up now selects from the appropriate levels of combat arts.
 
Conjurer changes:
- Minion's Intervention should be working properly.
- Elemental Vestment should be working properly.
 
Defiler changes:
- The duration of the on-death event portion of Ghostly Avenger is now 15 seconds.
 
Inquisitor changes:
- Coerced Repentance had its duration increased to 30 seconds.
- The duration of Heresy has been increased to 45 seconds. It now has a maximum of 5 triggers.
 
Mage changes:
- Magi's Shielding now increases the caster's maximum health pool and adds bonuses to Defense and Focus. The regenerating ward effect has been removed.
 
Necromancer changes:
- Clinging Darkness, Decaying Darkness, and Dooming Darkness should now be granted properly.
- Pets in the Undying Adherent line have increased in size.
 
Paladin changes:
- Redemption, Atonement, and Amends should now be siphoning a more appropriate amount of hate.
- Divine Wrath, Flatedge Twirl, and Holy Symbol no longer require a target in order to be cast.
 
Priest changes:
- Direct damage and DoT spell lines were moved from levels 24 and 38 to 23 and 37.
- All group cures now have a range of 20 meters.
 
Scout changes:
- Stealth spells should be functioning correctly.
 
Warden changes:
- Water Spirit will no longer prompt members of the group before receiving the enduring breath buff.
 
Warlock changes:
- The Steal Breath line now includes a debuff to the target's attack speed.

Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder

patch notes 09/07/05

 

*** Desert of Flames ***

- The Guide to the Desert of Flames has been removed. Adventurers must now seek out their own glory!
- Beta mariner's bells have been removed. To travel to and from the Desert of Flames, use the carpets in Qeynos Harbor and Freeport East. The carpet at the Sinking Sands dock now has an option to return to your home city as well.
- Many tradeskills, quests, creatures, and zones have been polished or fixed.

Quests:
- Master Irudan Ortai's quest can now be completed.

Zones and Population:
- Many powerful NPCs can no longer be charmed.

Items:
- Spell and combat art scrolls will now drop on creatures in the Desert of Flames.

Mounts:
- More armored horses are available at the bursars in the court palaces.

Tradeskills:
- Jeweler recipes should now all make something and no longer show up as breastplates
- Alchemist recipes should now all make something and no longer show up as breastplates.
- Sage recipes should now all make something and no longer show up as breastplates.
- Scholar recipes should now all make something and no longer show up as breastplates.


*** Quests ***

- Lore and Legend items found throughout the world will now be based on the new book system. Those currently working on their Lore and Legend quests can continue onward with the version they currently have. Replacements for those who have completed these quests previously will be forthcoming to a merchant near you!


*** Combat Changes ***

General changes:
- Decreased in combat regen of health and power from 1% of max to a fixed value of 1pt / 10 levels (plus any granted from items/spells).
- The base mitigation and avoidance on armor has been reduced.
- Quality (Treasured, Legendary, Fabled, etc.) of armor no longer affects your chances to avoid attacks.
- Accessories no longer have any physical mitigation.
- The base parry has been reduced from 20% to 10%.
- NPCs should progress more smoothly in difficulty from green through orange con.
- Small Group, Heroic, and Epic NPCs will now do more damage.
- The base mitigation value of kite and tower shields has been reduced to 10%.
- The new level 50 to 60 abilities have been assigned their intended levels.
- Charms should now function correctly. If the target cannot be charmed, the spell will not cast.
- Beneficial maintained group spells and arts should now affect a greater area.
- Pets can no longer attack NPCs that you cannot get to yourself.

Stealth and Invisibility:
- You can now always see those who are stealthed or invisible if they con grey to you.
- You can also be seen by anything that you con grey to when stealthed or invisible.
- When using see stealth, you will always be able to see those who are stealthed.
- When using see invisibility, you will always be able to see those who are invisible.
- Invisibility and stealth detection spells and arts can no longer be upgraded.
- Invisibility and stealth detection spells now grow as you level.
- Many redundant invisibility and stealth detection spells have been removed since they now grow.
- Invisibility spells range from 50% to 92% of normal run speed.
- Stealth arts range from 50% to 75% of normal run speed.
- Stealth cannot stack with invisibility--they are mutually exclusive.
- Some stealth and invisibility spells have had their levels changed, while others have been removed.

Assassin changes:
-  The Assassin's Mark line has been changed as follows: Reduced reuse to 36s, increased trigger chance to 10%, reduced triggered DoT damage (but it can stack with itself), increased max triggers from 1 to 5.
- The Makeshift Weapon line has been changed as follows: Changed to a ranged attack (does not use ammo), has +50% hit chance, does  damage, requires you to be behind or flanking the target, 2s cast, 20s reuse.

Brigand changes:
- The Deceit line has been changed as follows: Duration changed to 60s, power cost increased, haste changed to DPS, proc chance reduced to 20%, reuse increased to 6 minutes.
- The Maddening Throw line has been changed as follows: The damage these spells do has been increased.

Bruiser changes:
- Bruiser combined stances now cost 0 concentration points and provide half the offensive and defensive benefits of the individual stances.

Coercer changes:
- The Tyrannical Mind line has been changed as follows: Spells in the line will noticeably improve with level. They are now a 10s reuse 30s duration spell with a recurring Power cost every 5s.
- The Sibyllant line has been changed as follows: They are now a 10s reuse 30s duration spell with a recurring Power cost every 5s. The proc chance has been decreased, but the max triggers has been increased.
- The Empathic Link line has been changed as follows: It will trigger 100% of the time and the reactive damage has been increased.
- The Anguish line has been changed as follows: The power damage/return has been increased, as has the power cost.
- The Instigation line has been changed as follows: Added Intelligence and Agility to this group buff line.

Conjurer changes:
- The hate gain associated with innate pet abilities has been reduced.
- The Volatile Refuge line has been changed as follows: Reduced hate gain, increased attack speed penalty slightly, and added 10% to all magical resistances.
- The Grisly Brace line has been changed as follows: Reduced hate gain, increased attack speed penalty slightly, and added 10% to all magical resistances.
- Rat Infestation has been renamed to Blighted Pack. The rat pets have been removed and replaced with rotting hounds.
- The Diseased Servant Master I and II versions now summon a fallen hero.
- The Ghastly Stench line has been changed as follows: Reduced casting time to 2s and increased pet damage.
- A new spell line, beginning with Clinging Darkness, has been added. It does disease damage-over-time and reduces movement speed.
- Lich's recurring health cost has been increased slightly, while the damage of its proc has been reduced slightly.

Defiler changes:
- Infestation now deals Poison damage-over-time.
- Spiritual Circle will now ward group members as well as the Defiler.
- The recipient of Tendrils of Terror will now cast the debuff on enemy targets when attacked.
- The Dread Invective spell line has been changed as follows: It is now toggleable and costs 0 concentration.

Enchanter changes:
- The Breeze spell line has been changed as follows: It is now toggleable and costs 0 concentration. This also applies to Illusionists and Coercers.

Fighter changes:
- All primary defensive and offensive stances cost 0 concentration.

Fury changes:
- The target of Feral Vehemence should now receive the heal and agility buff when they die.
- The Savagery spell line has been changed as follows: It is now toggleable and costs 0 concentration.

Illusionist changes:
- The Dynamism line has been changed as follows: Increased trigger chance to 33% and decreased damage so that it procs more frequently but does similar damage over the course of the spell.

Inquisitor changes:
- The Harrowing Inquest spell line has been changed as follows: It is now toggleable and costs 0 concentration.

Monk changes:
- Monk combined stances now cost 0 concentration points and provide half the offensive and defensive benefits of the individual stances.

Mystic changes:
- Miasma and Pox will now have double the damage-over-time effects against Nightbloods and Shadowed Men.
- The Avatar spell line has been changed as follows: It is now toggleable and costs 0 concentration.

Necromancer changes:
- When viewing your Grim Terror's persona window during combat, it will no longer crash the client.

Paladin changes:
- Divine Favor will once again have a chance to heal the Paladin on a death blow.

Priest changes:
- The range has been increased from 10m to 20m for Priest Divine Intervention spells.

Ranger changes:
- The Steady Aim line has been changed as follows: Duration increased to 60s, increased reuse to 4 minutes, added a recurring power cost, decreased DPS bonus, decreased ranged skill bonus. This improves the total amount of additional DPS granted by this ability over a longer period of time.

Scout changes:
- All primary defensive and offensive stances cost 0 concentration.

Shadowknight changes:
- Tainted Caress, Cursed Caress and Infernal Caress should once again have a chance to summon a tainted essence into the inventory of the Shadowknight.

Summoner changes:
- Pet offensive and defensive stances have been changed as follows: It is now toggleable and costs 0 concentration.

Swashbuckler changes:
- Hail of Steel's hate gain has been reduced.
- The False Bravado line has been changed as follows: The hate gain has been reduced.
- The Flamboyant Strike line has been changed as follows: The hate position increase has been removed.
- The Chilling Throw line has been changed as follows: The damage these arts do has been increased.

Templar changes:
- The Protectorate spell line has been changed as follows: It is now toggleable and costs 0 concentration.

Troubador changes:
- The Aria of Excitement line has been changed as follows: The trigger chance has been increased to 30%.
- Precision of the Maestro now has an increased duration and reuse timer.

Warden changes:
- The Instincts spell line has been changed as follows: It is now toggleable and costs 0 concentration.

Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder

 

 

Those are just 2 of the last few.  but as you can see, all classes seem to be getting screwed, some less than others but.

Not sure if it's in those notes or not but Taunts are now resistable as well.

 

 

Over all I think the DoF expansion is beautiful.  It's an amazing looking area, and fun to be in.  Unfortunatly the Combat revamp will take away from what it is.

[TooSwi]

ROFL  They changed in combat regen to 6 base / tick.  What a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing joke.  This game and expansion is NOT READY FOR LIVE.  They have [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed with it so much it's a joke. 

[djhbeek]

---

TooSwiss wrote:ROFL  They changed in combat regen to 6 base / tick.  What a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing joke.  This game and expansion is NOT READY FOR LIVE.  They have [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed with it so much it's a joke. 

---

would have to agree there ... the latest party line seems to be "we're not done and we know it, but we have to push this in with DoF, so we are making it easier to hotfix things so that we can finish the job while it's on live".

[Majorminor]

Don't forget Kite shield value is 10%

Might as well just go 2hander all the time then. Though losing those stats from shield but /shrug who knows anymore

[TooSwi]

Putting these changes into live will completely destroy the game.

[WAPCE]

---

Majorminor wrote:

Don't forget Kite shield value is 10%

Might as well just go 2hander all the time then. Though losing those stats from shield but /shrug who knows anymore

---

But the great thing is, depending the quality of your gear and your shield, it's easy to end up with avoidance higher than mitigation now. (Note: Normal for live, a significant departure from the combat revamp prior to the infamous patch of 9/7)

Look Ma, I'm an avoidance tank!

Message Edited by WAPCE on 09-09-2005 06:01 PM

[Majorminor]

---

WAPCE wrote:

---

Majorminor wrote:

Don't forget Kite shield value is 10%

Might as well just go 2hander all the time then. Though losing those stats from shield but /shrug who knows anymore

---

But the great thing is, depending the quality of your gear and your shield, it's easy to end up with avoidance higher than mitigation now. Look ma, I'm an avoidance tank!

---

/ponder but then the monks would cry that we can avoid better.  and SOE would, for some reason, make it so Pallies get to balance a ball on there nose, while doing it, lowering our Weight gain for 2 min. And call it good

[Rochir]

---

TooSwiss wrote:
Putting these changes into live will completely destroy the game.

---

SOE did a survey before they enabled the Station Exchange on all of the servers.   Maybe they should do a poll/survey before they force the combat changes on all of us?

What do you think the result of a yes/no vote on the combat changes would be?

Message Edited by Rochir on 09-09-2005 04:12 PM

[Jojo-the-Yumcov]

the choices for the poll should be :yes.i like combat changes

                                                       :no,i don't like these changes

                                                      :[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] no.thats it i'm canceling and waiting for vanguard to come out.this is bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] god damnit!!!!!!

 personally i'll be going with choice number 3 where it will be ninja'd by faarbot after i write this post of crude humor.

Message Edited by Jojo-the-Yumcover on 09-09-2005 02:55 PM

[Fellgaze]

---

uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:

 What is the definition of a straight up fighter?

---

 

I may be oversimplifying here, but a "straight-up fighter", to my mind, is one who relies almost exclusively on his armor and weapons to survive a fight. Look, Paladins cannot possibly be permitted to tank mobs in the same way that Guardians do, i.e. "Hit me all you want, I can take it".

 

Why?

 

Guardians can't ward or heal themselves. Can you imagine the outcry if Paladins could mitigate damage *only with armor* to the same extent that Guardians could? We'd be Guardians with heals and wards. The Guardians in the game would be completely justified in saying something like, "Uhm...he mitigates damage as well as I do AND he can further ward and heal himself and others?"

 

How would that make sense?

 

Bluntly put, it makes perfect sense to say, "Paladins can tank anything a Guardian can..but the Guardian can just stand there and take it, whilst the Paladin will achieve the same end result by healing and warding himself".

 

That, to me, it a perfectly acceptable balance between class diversity and parity; achieving the same end result  (tanking the exact same mob) via totally different means ("straight up" tanking versus "heal/ward" tanking).

[Fellgaze]

---

TooSwiss wrote:
Putting these changes into live will completely destroy the game.

---

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnd we're off! Break out the umbrellas, the sky is falling.

[Fellgaze]

---

Rochir wrote:

---

TooSwiss wrote:
Putting these changes into live will completely destroy the game.

---

SOE did a survey before they enabled the Station Exchange on all of the servers.   Maybe they should do a poll/survey before they force the combat changes on all of us?

What do you think the result of a yes/no vote on the combat changes would be?

Message Edited by Rochir on 09-09-200504:12 PM

---

No, I don't. I think they should do what they want with their game, and let the customers "vote" with their dollars by

re-subscribing or leaving. Which is exactly what they're doing.

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

with less hit points, less mitigation, MUCH less avoidance, 10% block and parry.....what makes you think we tank as well as a bruiser or a guard? Specially when fighting multiples mobs...if our tanking depends on healing and warding ourselves, how many times will those heals and wards be interrupted? specially during a raid?

[Rochir]

---

uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:

with less hit points, less mitigation, MUCH less avoidance, 10% block and parry.....what makes you think we tank as well as a bruiser or a guard? Specially when fighting multiples mobs...if our tanking depends on healing and warding ourselves, how many times will those heals and wards be interrupted? specially during a raid?

---

Another issue is that our heal and ward are much less effective in the combat changes than they are now.    Dont expect your heal and ward to keep you alive against tough mobs.

You make a good point about avoidance.   I am looking at the numbers on the test server:

Avoidance/Mitigation With Defensive Stance and Cedar Kite Shield - 39.4%/1650

Avoidance/Mitigation with Defensive Stance and 2-handed Sword - 29.3%/1650

Avoidance/Mitigation with no Stance and Cedar Kite Shield - 34.4%/1440

Avoidance/Mitigation with Offensive Stance and Cedar Kite Shield - 25.0%/1440

Avoidance/Mitigation with Offensive Stance and 2-handed Sword - 12.5%/1440

I also tried equipping and unequipping my pristine shadow imbued hex doll.   Its +12 to agility made exactly a 1% difference in avoidance.

Our shield buff is no longer an avoidance buff, at least not directly.   The Adept III version of Aegis of Hope now grants a 21% chance of an additional attempt at avoiding attack and increases defense by 6.7.

Remember, this is a character that I have not yet respeced, in other words, none of his attribute or racial trait buffs have been selected.   I am waiting for DoF to do that.  

Message Edited by Rochir on 09-10-2005 10:31 AM

Message Edited by Rochir on 09-10-2005 10:56 AM

[Fellgaze]

@uzhiel (sorry if I misspell the name); I don't know that we will tank as effectively as a Guardian...down to a *t*, that is. There may be variances, but will those variances be so great that Paladins are useless? Hardly.

 

@Rochir; it may well be true that we'll get interrupted more frequently, but then I'll just have to adapt how I play to what my Paladin has. I can already see myself soloing differently- possibly using more knockdowns and debuffs whereas I virtually ignored them before, etc... - but whatever impact the changes will have, my playstyle will also change to compensate. Call me a foolish optimist, but short of making mobs completely invulnerable, I don't think SOE can come up with a combat system my Pally won't fit into nicely. :smileyhappy:

[Rochir]

---

Fellgaze wrote:

@uzhiel (sorry if I misspell the name); I don't know that we will tank as effectively as a Guardian...down to a *t*, that is. There may be variances, but will those variances be so great that Paladins are useless? Hardly.

 

@Rochir; it may well be true that we'll get interrupted more frequently, but then I'll just have to adapt how I play to what my Paladin has. I can already see myself soloing differently- possibly using more knockdowns and debuffs whereas I virtually ignored them before, etc... - but whatever impact the changes will have, my playstyle will also change to compensate. Call me a foolish optimist, but short of making mobs completely invulnerable, I don't think SOE can come up with a combat system my Pally won't fit into nicely. :smileyhappy:

---

I am just reporting what I observe each day on the Test server.   I am trying to stay away from opinion and speculation.    The focus here is on actual gameplay.    Looks like they reduced our damage again or the spell/CA descriptions are now updating properly ie. they are displaying the effects of our buffs/debuffs/stats.   For example the damage on RoG now changes depending on whether the offensive or defensive stance (or no stance) is being used.   The int buff from Implacable Wrath now appears to be affecting spellcasting damage as it should.

I took on a group of 5 heroic lvl 38 lizardmen, I think they were souble arrow down lizardmen and I actually won at level 40.   It was a tough fight and I took a terrific beating and had to heal and ward myself several times but I won.   Even-con mobs now present more of a challenge.   A group of normal double-arrow down lizardment is now a something of a challenge.  DPS seems adequate.   The mobs are not resisting as much as before.   It was fun playing my Paladin today on Test

 

Message Edited by Rochir on 09-10-2005 10:55 AM