I thought that weapons were better than unarmed but ...

[Malkosha]

... thats not what my numbers say. Now, I'm only level 12 so that might make a difference but my attack is around 680 when unarmed but drops to 117 when I equip my level 10 fist wraps. The FAQ says one thing and the numbers say something else. Are the numbers just wrong or am I really that clueless?ThX!!

[Aeralik]

There is currently a display bug with the bare fists which I just fixed today and should be part of the next update.  Sorry about the confusion there

[SheetMonk]

Was it only a display bug?  With wraps on my toon was hitting for about 1 or 2 on auto.  If I pulled the wraps out of the primary I would hit for around 5 - 8 on auto. 

[Adewale]

Damage numbers without speed is irrelevant.

[Malkosha]

Thank you for clearing this up!

[Moorgard]

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SheetMonk wrote:

Was it only a display bug?  With wraps on my toon was hitting for about 1 or 2 on auto.  If I pulled the wraps out of the primary I would hit for around 5 - 8 on auto. 

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Yes, only a display bug.

Bare fists hit for higher numbers because technically they count as a two-handed weapon. Why that instead of two dual-wield weapons? I dunno, that's just how they were set up in days of yore. What that means is you don't attack with bare fists unless both your primary and secondary slots are empty. If you equip only one weapon and leave the other slot bare, all you're doing is cheating yourself out of one weapon.

It occurred to me that knowing the damage rating for bare fists at each level would be useful for brawlers. I'll work on that, but in the meantime I'll give you the basic facts.

Brawler bare fists are the equivalent of a store-bought 2H weapon of the brawler's level with a 2.5 delay. "Store-bought" being like the weapons you see NPC weapon vendors selling, which have no stats. In other words, they aren't something you'd want to use if you can avoid doing so. Even a basic handcrafted 2H staff of your level would be better.

However, the strength line of the brawler Achievements makes a significant difference in fighting unarmed that people are only now starting to realize. It will really manifest itself once people start putting a lot of points into it.

[Dfoley3]

Pft moorgrad is too slow!  Im 2 advancments away from max double atk.  The str line is by far the best dps line so far.   With my typical group (me coercer inquis) im 109% haste 135% dps mod.   Im aving 500-600 dps per heroic fight, and 700-800 on named.

[zabor]

well with coercer and inquis, 600 dps is nothing special though.

[KnowH]

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zaboron wrote:well with coercer and inquis, 600 dps is nothing special though.

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Yeah, with 100% DPS boost, you're really only putting out 300 DPS, which is about par for the course.

[Dahlrek]

Here's a handy chart:Level 40 Store bought 2H: 30.9Level 40 Fabled 2H: 54.9Level 40 Fabled DW: 33.0 (x2)And just in case anyone thinks Fabled is an inappropriate comparison,Level 40 Legendary DW: 28.8 (x2)So you cap your DA at 96%, you're now at a grand total of 60.6.  That's 11% more than fabled 2H, 5% more than legendary DW, and 9% less than fabled DW.  Since you're using a weapon at level, instead of at-or-below, there is a potential increase there (weapon DR increases very slightly faster than linearly with level).Cancelling that out is the loss of procs or other secondary spell effects on the weapons (not insignificant, especially on good weapons, my fabled weapon's proc is about 5% of my total DPS), stats, skill bonuses and the option of non-crushing autoattack damage.Factoring in the +DPS% portion is entirely player-specific.  If you're grouped with a coercer, dirge, or what have you, the +DPS is much less relevant.  For some people it's going take them from +0% to +whatever% (34%?), increasing their autoattack dps my a good amount compared to normal.  Other people normally play at or close to 100% (I'm usually at ~80%), so for them it has nearly zero impact.Net result?  The DA bonus is a wash when you account for the fact that you're using a terrible weapon, when you could be using rare crafted or legendary/fabled dropped weapons.  Nearly the entirety of the damage increase is based on increasing your +DPS%.  For most players, yes, this is probably a very solid bet, probably better than the 6-7% you get from the Int crits, 4-8% you get for Sta procs, 4-5% + utility from the Agi recharge, or whatever you get from the Wis AE proc.  But like I said, it's very dependent on the player in question.Caveat: I don't know how they handle procs off second attacks.  If full DA allows you to proc twice as often off of autoattack, then that's a nice bonus.edit: realized it probably doesn't rank up +dps linearly

Message Edited by Dahlrek on 03-03-200608:14 PM

[selch]

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Moorgard wrote:

However, the strength line of the brawler Achievements makes a significant difference in fighting unarmed that people are only now starting to realize. It will really manifest itself once people start putting a lot of points into it.

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I doubt that and disappointed to be honest, not only because of "bare fist" requirement when Mitigation tanks having avoidance AA's, we, avoidance tanks not having mitigation AA's.

 

[Sslarrga]

Currently everything procs off the secondary attacks.  Well at least it did last night.  And I've ready nothing in the patch notes that would have changed this.  Although Dragons Breath got hit by a rather HUGE stealth nerf, so I'm not putting it past them.

Also double attack will affect your ranged attacks.  I've basically doubled my dps on ranged fights for raids with maxed double attack.

With fabled t6 DW or legendary t7 DW it is significantly easier to lose aggro than it is with maxed DA unarmed due to the chance to proc on the secondary attack.

Here's to hoping it isn't a bug as otherwise the strength line would be almost entirely worthless.

After all I'll basically be able to hold aggro better and DPS slightly better, but on the other hand I lose out on a lot of resists, hps, stats, +to avoidance skills, and +to crushing skills by going unarmed.

If procing on the secondary attack is a bug and is removed, then there is absolutely NO reason for anyone to choose the strength line.

Add to that 8 ranks of the riposte skill is only 5% and it's even more of a waste.  As it is I'm already planning on respecing once I have 25 AA just to get back the points I spend in riposte falsely believing it would give 1.5% riposte per rank.  Even then, while useful, it's still questionable whether it would be worth 8 AA points.

Regards,

Croaker

[Cornbread Muffin]

Also, the numbers posted above is from a monk that can cap his haste easily, while similar benefits are not shared by the bruiser class because our offensive stance gives us a proc.

 

Sadly, the proc only accounts for about 1% of my damage in my parses so the benefits of the STR line realised by monks won't be reflected in bruisers.

[Siberia2]

I retract my post about double attack, but my complaints about Chi still remain :p

Message Edited by Siberia275 on 03-04-200608:00 PM

[Dfoley3]

Guess i should clarify.  the 300 dps was with JUST auto atk and no combat arts.  I break 800-1k with my ideal group.

[Bewts]

I also run in the 800-1k dps range barehanded in a dps orientated group at level 67.  Auto attack is in fact around 300 dps from my parses.  This coming from a 67 monk with 8 in both pressure point and relentless punches.  I'm undecided where to put the rest of my AP's once I get 8 ranks in critical, but I'm thinking of finishing out the Int line to get eagle shriek.  If I take an AE, it drops me below 30% HP when fighting barehanded I can literally double attack 96% of the time, criting 100% of the time on those double attacks with 100% haste and nearly 100% DPS mod.  Pretty sure thats a significant dps bump.  Granted I'll likely die but thats why you throw up tsunami and just go nutz for 12 seconds before you feign heh.

[ellleme]

>>Brawler bare fists are the equivalent of a store-bought 2H weapon of the brawler's level with a 2.5 delay. "Store-bought" being like the weapons you see NPC weapon vendors selling, which have no stats. In other words, they aren't something you'd want to use if you can avoid doing so. Even a basic handcrafted 2H staff of your level would be better.Sad to see that just like in Eversit, EQ2 will not have a practical bare-handed class.  Why??  Why even have 'fists' as a skill?  Is it for the poor monks out there who cant afford weapons?  Why not simply have weapons that are equipable but have no graphic?  These can be 'techniques' or something like a charm.  They can add stats but arnt really weapons.Another possiblity is to make barefisted fighting do very good damage per secon, better than any store-bought or player made weapon, but still have NO stats.  Then some people might be willing to  go barefisted. I for one would love to see a class that can go from level 1 to 70 without every equiping anytthing in the weapon slots. 

[superdave]

At lvl 66 i am doing 200-400 auto damage with bare fisted. i have relentless punches to rank 4 at max rank i do 96% double attack. Use that and combiination of int line i believe u do pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good dps. i will see more testing to come.

[Siberia2]

Did some parsing, some solo mobs, blue single up 67 Assassin class Droags in bonemire, auto-attack only. 8 Ranks of Double Attack, Eagle's Fury at rank 3, level 70 monk, capped haste, 421+ Varying Str. 4 tests of each weapon type. Weapons including: Bare fists, Two Dual Wield Clubs with a 45 rating. Two fist weapons with 42.2 rating, and a 2 handed crush with an 86.2 rating.Bare Fists over 4 fights:278.12280.67264.71281.45Dual Wield Clubs:286.57250.88261.48249.52Two Handed:242.52185.81231.50182.48Fist Weapons:216.71200.89190.88198.42So, I gave up 50+ stats, possible procs, and in some rare cases minor resists for at best 30 DPS? Not to mention 16 AA points better spend in higher damage dealing AAs like Mantis Bolt? Personally I think if the requirement was lifted to include fist weapons it would give a decent boost. at a 96% change at rank 8 it's along the lines of 400~+ DPS. Not overpowered, but it's a definite boost.Otherwise, I'm sorry, I just can't see this manifest itself into anything worthwhile.

Message Edited by Siberia275 on 03-14-200601:25 AM

[Sslarrga]

Well except you are forgetting a few things.

 

Mantis bolt damage doesn't go up with more ranks however, the chance to proc does.  It's still a relatively minor DPS boost if used with "conventional" weapons.

 

You are also missing out on the major strength of the Unarmed line.  Procs.

 

Both the primary and secondary attacks from double attacks are treated as Primary hand weapons for the purposes of proc chance.  You can test this easily by using storming palm (or it's equivalent) or having a bard cast CoB.

 

Basically this means (ignoring the 4% chance to NOT DA) that you will proc twice as often as you would when using conventional DW or 2H weapons.

 

My parsing is a bit different than yours.  Over the course of 30+ fights 6 Ranks of Double Attack is roughly equal to the 2 T6 fabled weapons that I was using at the time.  8 Ranks of DA is greater, but I'm going to guess that it will be slightly less than 2 T7 fabled.

 

However, factor in procs and the DPS from Unarmed blows away T6 DW and possibly puts it on par with T7 DW.

 

Also, DA affects your Ranged attacks meaning you'll double your Ranged attack damage.  Taking it from pitiful to somewhat useful.

 

HOWEVER...

 

As was pointed out you lose on on a massive amount of stats, resists, HPs and Power.  As it stands it's a trade off.  A bit better DPS but lower stats.  Or better stats and a bit lower DPS.

 

Assuming this isn't a bug, it's the "right" kind of trade off.  It's a choice that you make.  You can have one or the other, but not both.

 

Granted you have the option still of using conventional weapons if you "really" have to, but then you'd be trading off those AAs invested in the strength line.

 

Still, it's a GOOD choice with no clear cut path that is better than the other.

 

Regards,

Croaker

[Ard]

It's so nice to come from SWG and see red names actually posting in posts, unless saying this post is locked, lol.

[Nearonamous]

So it is a bug that my attack raises when I remove both my weaps? I was confused about this. However, If I leave my primary empty and equip a weap in secondary I keep the same attack numbers I do when both slots are empty. Its only when I equip a weap in primary I lose about 200 attack.

[Raz]

question about procs and bare fists.. it has been stated how unarmed and the str aa's allow for double the procs..

 

im kinda new to this so bear with my numbers for i am making them up..

 

if unarmed is double attacking every say 1.5 seconds  that would be 2 hits every 1.5 seconds.....2 chances to proc then with every swing...

 

if you are using dual wield weapons of speed 1.5  wouldnt you be hitting twice every 1.5 seconds..  do procs work off your secondary attack weapon? if they do then wouldnt it also be the same as unarmed with 2 chances to proc every 1.5 seconds?

 

trying to think this through...  the unarmed line's benefit to me seems like it is based off using a dual wield attack style with a 1 handed weapon (generally about 1.5 times the dps of an equivalent dw weapon).  im not sure i understand the basis of the double proc chance for unarmed unless secondary attacks with dual wield do not have a chance to proc. 

 

another thought... if unarmed has double chance to proc...and only from a solo standpoint with no proc buffs from wizzies or whoever...  might it be reasonable to think that the double procs might be partially offset by the fact that you are unable to equip weapons that also proc? i mean as a bruiser..  i have my offensive proc and my aggro proc (add stam and wis line procs just as a wishlist)  lets count that as 4 chances to proc something..doubled is 8.  now keep the same thought for weapons instead with an additional proc on both DW .. that makes 6 chances to proc total.  this doesnt seem so glaringly overpowered in my opinion.  with additional group proc buffs maybe it will add up faster with unarmed.  i am just not convinced that it is truly double since DW should hit approximately the same number of times.

 

plz excuse my rambling as it is late