Monks and tankin (please read dev)

Lebr · 03-19-2005, 08:13 PM

We seem to do ok at tankin for the most part but.......

Couple things i think would help us and not hurt the "balance"

1) Taunts need to be more effective raise the hate by 100points or so would help us keep aggro. We count on damage to help keep aggro every other tank class gets a nice heritage weapon + better taunts than us. Treant fists would be a nice heritage for us monks/bruisers.

2) StoneStance let us still beable to taunt when using this abilitie. Right now if were getting a beat down and use this we lose aggro real fast. Which makes this skill really worthless yay im rooted and cant keep aggro. So we have to cancel the abilitie so we can try to get aggro back. So whats the point of even having this skill really? I dont see how it would unbalance anything to let us atleast still taunt when we use this skill.

3) Rescue i think the reuse timer should be lowered by alot. Its a nice skill but every 1800secs whats the point of that and how would having it at 900secs un balance anything? I think this skill really needs to be looked at ive used it and not even got aggro from people. Yet it states it moves you up one spot on the hate list. yet you use it and the person still has aggro on them /bog.

If im being the main tank i should have enough aggro built up that if someone happens to pull the mob off me this skill should get aggro right back but thats not the case.

Anyway im a 50 monk and hope someone reads this and cares enough to check it out. Its about balance right ?

anyway peace and tranquility.

LeBru of the Lucan server.

Message Edited by Lebru1 on 03-19-2005 07:18 AM

NeVeRLi · 03-19-2005, 09:03 PM

So your happy with the way deflection works at this point in time? Me personally I want our deflection fixed. The skill rescue is pretty useless, it never does anything so I have not used in forever. Using Staggering stance at least does something with getting me agro... rescue never done a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] thing. Pretty sad when a buff helps more with agro than one of our supposed best skills for getting agro.

Gaige · 03-19-2005, 09:37 PM

Rescue works, just most people don't understand it.

For one it adds hate like a normal taunt, and for two it ups you on the hate list by one. It just sucks when you aren't in second when you use it.

Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-19-2005 08:37 AM

Lebr · 03-19-2005, 09:39 PM

Yeah at 50 im ok with my deflection. But being a tank type i would like our tuants to be more effective. Also would like StoneStance to be worth having but if we use it we cant taunt or do anything 9 outta 10 times we lose aggro and have to cancel Stonestance so we can taunt ect. I believe we might even beable to tank raid encounters fine if we could taunt while using Stonestance. Just my opinion thats all. /bow

Lebr · 03-19-2005, 09:42 PM

Gage

Ive been tankin and had a dirge take aggro halfway thru a fight, and used rescue. I know i have to be second on its hate list and rescue wont pull aggro back. /shrug So its in need of some fixxingin my opinion.

LeBru

Gaige · 03-19-2005, 09:43 PM

Lebru1 wrote:

Gage

Ive been tankin and had a dirge take aggro halfway thru a fight, and used rescue. I know i have to be second on its hate list and rescue wont pull aggro back. /shrug So its in need of some fixxingin my opinion.

LeBru

Oh yeah I think it needs tweaked, especially recast. My post was more for the other poster, not you SMILEY

Wiou · 03-19-2005, 09:57 PM

rescue sucks.

NeVeRLi · 03-19-2005, 09:59 PM

I have been in PF and LS and tanked with my guardian friend and we both solo there. When in a group he is a better tank and get hits less than I do and takes less damage. The only way I can out tank him is if we have trobadaur in our group who can boost my agility high... well guess what that same trobadaur can out tank the guardian. With trobadaurs booting their agility over 300 they make great tanks. As for soloing the testing shows that I can tank ^^ that are 4 levels below me while my guardian friend can tank ^^ 2 levels below him. For me if a ^^ is 5 levels below me it never touches me. This not balanced and its not fun. There is no challenge! All this shows me is deflection is not working right. Why should there be this great difference? Guardians and Trobadaur tank better with out Monks, and why should a monk have to rely on them to tank good? Guardians have their super defense and trobadaurs have their amazing super high 300+ agility (at lvl 46 my trobadaur friend's agility is 326) why cant they fix the monks deflection? Why can warlock solo ^^ that are 2 levels higher than them? No other class can solo these groub monsters.

Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on 03-19-2005 12:00 PM

Wiou · 03-19-2005, 11:22 PM

some classes are meant to be soloers. Warlocks have similar roles in many other games, they have always been great soloers.

NeVeRLi · 03-19-2005, 11:26 PM

I dont believe that. And if you do then I guess you believe all the classes are balanced.

i3ry · 03-20-2005, 03:19 AM

What's wrong with our agro capabilities? I can honestly say if I want agro no one else in my group is able to take it. Use your group attack buff at the beginning of the fight and keep your taunts used regularly throughout an encounter and you will never lose agro.

Lebr · 03-20-2005, 07:14 PM

Yes use everything you got group buffs taunts ect. A dirge could take aggro from you in a sec if he wants to.

Unless youre talkin lower levels ?

I know at 50 these things are problems. Stonestance needs a purpose other han to lose aggro, got fd for that. Our taunts are to weak and rescue dont rescue nothin.

Unless you got better abilities than me i have none below adept3 most are master1's. I dont see how you couldnt of seen this in game yet.

Message Edited by Lebru1 on 03-20-2005 06:18 AM

SageMarrow · 03-20-2005, 07:35 PM

IMO no class should have to use group buffs to keep or hold aggro, not a guardian on down to a monk. its power inefficient and on the other side it would be very easy and simple to give all classes a boost in thier hate/taunt skills.

Im sure they have considered this, but something tells *ME* and only *ME* that they want you to have messes and such to clean up at times when things get hairy. In a monks/bruisers case its usually a bit more hairy than otherwise, but i think its intended to not over simplify things so that a wizard can nuke away and a scout and pull aggro if he over does it as well as other fighter types that may be in group.

so with that being said, its a catch 22. but the additional aggro holding would be nice in a perfect world. or at least give us really strong single target taunts(edit) to boot.

but it totally negates the 6+ combat arts on our hot bars if we are constantly group buffing and taunting and auto attacking. and trying to save pwer to keep up that chain of aggro building.

if our dps is "supposed" to be our offset for tanking and hate building skill, personally i would suggest faster recast timers on combat arts, or if not, just simply reduce the cost of the combat arts.

because holding aggro and fighting is all but impossible unless you are doing one or the other.

but they should be able to find a happy medium between too much and just enough hate to keep things balanced, 100 pts should do the trick though IMO to the taunts.

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-20-2005 06:39 AM

Gaige · 03-21-2005, 12:53 AM

SageMarrow wrote:

IMO no class should have to use group buffs to keep or hold aggro, not a guardian on down to a monk. its power inefficient and on the other side it would be very easy and simple to give all classes a boost in thier hate/taunt skills. Why, its a good tactic.

Im sure they have considered this, but something tells *ME* and only *ME* that they want you to have messes and such to clean up at times when things get hairy. In a monks/bruisers case its usually a bit more hairy than otherwise, but i think its intended to not over simplify things so that a wizard can nuke away and a scout and pull aggro if he over does it as well as other fighter types that may be in group. If you can't hold aggro its a personal issue, not a class issue.

so with that being said, its a catch 22. but the additional aggro holding would be nice in a perfect world. or at least give us really strong single target taunts(edit) to boot. Our aggro control ability is awesome.

but it totally negates the 6+ combat arts on our hot bars if we are constantly group buffing and taunting and auto attacking. and trying to save pwer to keep up that chain of aggro building. When your are tanking you are different responsibilities than when you are offtanking. Thus not all combat arts are applicable in all situations. Tanking = aggro control, not damage dealing.

if our dps is "supposed" to be our offset for tanking and hate building skill, personally i would suggest faster recast timers on combat arts, or if not, just simply reduce the cost of the combat arts. Its a trade off for our lack of taunts/hp/mitigation; not an offset for tanking.

because holding aggro and fighting is all but impossible unless you are doing one or the other. You are supposed to do one or the other. Tanking isn't about fighting, its about holding aggro.

but they should be able to find a happy medium between too much and just enough hate to keep things balanced, 100 pts should do the trick though IMO to the taunts. Its fine as it is.

SageMarrow · 03-21-2005, 05:20 AM

gage?

whats the difference between off tanking and dpsing?

as of now, taunts, HP, mitigation = better tanking.

so you admit that you want to be a lightly armored punching bag??

i dont think thats why anyone in their right mind played a monk...which is another assumption, but for the past few days... all my assumptions have been right, so i dont know- i could be wrong this time..

not a flame or attack.. just a post in reply.. take it as such.

Wiou · 03-21-2005, 06:04 AM

Tard_01 wrote:
I dont believe that. And if you do then I guess you believe all the classes are balanced.

Is this your first day playing a MMORPG? Really.

NeVeRLi · 03-21-2005, 11:04 AM

Here's your sign.

SageMarrow · 03-21-2005, 11:45 AM

they aughta give us really high avoidance and make us look like neo when avoiding attacks...at that point, i wouldnt mind being a meat sheild!!

thats the solution guys, we never need to throw a punch again, just give me some really fancy [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] avoidance animations and make us nearly un hittable, screw the dps, and i will be a happy camper.

oh wait, the matrix online luanches day after tommorow, nevermind.:smileysad:

Gaige · 03-21-2005, 11:55 AM

MO is horrible.

Bur · 03-21-2005, 01:23 PM

If stone stance was stifle instead of whatever it supposidly is we'd be able to use most taunts under it.

Tweak · 03-21-2005, 03:08 PM

At 46, I have no problem tanking. It's just a very different role than solo-ing or DPS, and requires different strategies and priorities. Holding aggro always comes first. Normally my high damage and group taunts are enough (I took the quick-recast + attack-buff + taunt level-upgrade option - works great). I rarely need my single-target taunt at all. If things do get messy, the group-buff is a nice way to recover aggro. Knowing when to use Mend is also important. Saving it as a last resort will often do less good then using it to avoid that last resort ever occuring. Mend can keep the healer from having to bury themself in aggro chain-healing. In epic fights, there may be no downside, since Mend's recast timer may elapse before the fight ends.I would agree that Rescue could use improving. Considering it has a VERY long recast time, and only works on a single target, IMO it should put you at the top of the hate list, not just bump you up a spot. As it is now, it rarely does anything, and certainly doesn't live up to its' name.All in all, I have no serious complaints about the monk's role as tank. I've never had a single complaint, and often people are pleasantly amazed at how effectively a Monk can handle tanking. There have been times when people have scoffed at the idea of monk-as-tank, but I've had little problem convincing them. I always defer to another tank class if they are my level or higher, but that's as much because of how less effective they would be as DPS. The skill of the tank (and their group) is far more important than their class, which is exactly as it should be.

RadricTyc · 03-21-2005, 06:07 PM

Gage-Mikel wrote:
MO is horrible.

What don't you like about it?

Ala · 03-21-2005, 07:16 PM

Lebru1 wrote:

We seem to do ok at tankin for the most part but.......

Couple things i think would help us and not hurt the "balance"

1) Taunts need to be more effective raise the hate by 100points or so would help us keep aggro. We count on damage to help keep aggro every other tank class gets a nice heritage weapon + better taunts than us. Treant fists would be a nice heritage for us monks/bruisers.

I really think our taunts are fine. I tanked orange-con ^ ^ Nightbloods and Lamias for about 4 hours and didn't lose aggro once. What helps is take yourself out of DPS mindset and taunt/ group taunt every chance the timer come up. If everyone in the group is assisting you, you should be fine. The only time when you will lose aggro is if a group member starts attacking a mob you are not. I also ask casters to not nuke until I build some hate. And with adds, most players react to being attacked by an add by attacking it back. This is the worst thing to do. If there is an add, make sure they know not to attack it so you can taunt it quickly. If they attack it begins to build hate.

Kharza Xorlarr · 03-21-2005, 07:17 PM

I have no problems with stone stance as it is now. I don't use it 24/7 like FoTM, but then again that is what FoTM is for. Stone Stance is used for the exact situation I used it the other day.. I was working on DFC access and we pulled the wandering capt and his cronies. We blew up his cronies and started working down the capt. We only had 1 healer and she pulled me out of a nasty spike and was LOP.. I proceeded to drop Stone Stance and take no dmg for the next 30 seconds while she could get some power to drop in some heals (FYI I had something like 8k ac during this time it was insane). We had the capt below 1/4 health so I had good hate already generated and didn't have to worry about taunting. Now.. I agree that we need to be able to use the taunts like Silent Threat etc.. while in Stone Stance and I think that is a bug. I've noticed I can't use those taunts even when a MOB stuns or stifles me like I'm supposed to. I don't think we need to fix Stone Stance, just the taunts that we are supposed to be able to use while stunned/stifled. Kharza 41 Monk Mistmoore

Message Edited by Kharza Xorlarrin on 03-21-2005 06:18 AM

Ala · 03-21-2005, 07:21 PM

Lebru1 wrote:

2) StoneStance let us still beable to taunt when using this abilitie. Right now if were getting a beat down and use this we lose aggro real fast. Which makes this skill really worthless yay im rooted and cant keep aggro. So we have to cancel the abilitie so we can try to get aggro back. So whats the point of even having this skill really? I dont see how it would unbalance anything to let us atleast still taunt when we use this skill.

Agreed! I just hit level 40 and was a bit dissapointed with this spell. I feel it's useless and placed it in my fun spell category.

How can you have fun with it? Activate it then ask a Guardian to check out your AC, they will flip out! Two of my good friends are Guardians at the same level and they freaked out when they saw my AC was over 8,000.

Lebr · 03-21-2005, 07:26 PM

Well wait til the higher levels and tell me youre happy with stone stance. What you just described you would lose aggro soon as you used Stonestance and the mob would be all over your low on power healer. While you try to get aggro back you would watch your group mates fall. Yay stonestance worked your alive but now you have no aggro and your group is dead. We need to beable to still taunt when we use it. Otherwise its only use is when you solo

Rescue doesnt work right it says it moves you up one spot on the hate list well if someone pulls aggro off you and you use it shouldnt that bring aggro right back on you ? Well it dont do that

Im not saying we cant hold aggro we can if we are spamming our taunts + group buff but we shouldnt have to spam a group buff to hold aggro so up our taunts alittle and it will be fixxed.

Course im talking about x2 or x4 mob encounters not your regular xp groups. These skills need to be tweaked or keep the blinders on think i dont know what ive been witness too. Regular xp stuff is not in question here never was im talking end game ect.

Skill can only take you sofar. Can i make due with what i got? sure can been doing so for 50 levels. But if i see somthing that needs to be looked at im gonna post about it not just for me but for every monk out there.

Message Edited by Lebru1 on 03-21-2005 06:27 AM

Message Edited by Lebru1 on 03-21-2005 06:30 AM

Message Edited by Lebru1 on 03-21-2005 06:35 AM

SageMarrow · 03-21-2005, 08:08 PM

stonestance = who thought that out and expected it to work...

(but then again as horrible as it may seem, would be perfect for a bodygaurd situation when you just took a mob off a caster type and just need to absorb the damage until the MT can get aggro back..)

but of course thats not what it was made for... We are tanks and only tanks....**snicker snicker**:smileyvery-happy:

Lebr · 03-21-2005, 08:25 PM

Yeah if you had a way to keep aggro once you use it. But thats not the case if you solo alot you might use it once or twice.

If you group and use this be ready to cancel it right after you click to use it. Yay i got 10secs of better mitigation and cant use it again til the timer runs down. And i lost aggro so now i get to watch the mob bounce around my group mates. Nice skill

But hey i got these two taunts and a group buff to try and get aggro back again. Working as intended?

SageMarrow · 03-21-2005, 08:37 PM

if you asked me to bet money, i would say yeah - it is working as intended... now they may go back and change it with all this hoopla bout being pure tanks as brawlers...

but its a support skill.

ArivenGemini · 03-21-2005, 08:38 PM

Lebru1 wrote:

1) Taunts need to be more effective raise the hate by 100points or so would help us keep aggro. We count on damage to help keep aggro every other tank class gets a nice heritage weapon + better taunts than us. Treant fists would be a nice heritage for us monks/bruisers.

2) StoneStance let us still beable to taunt when using this abilitie. Right now if were getting a beat down and use this we lose aggro real fast. Which makes this skill really worthless yay im rooted and cant keep aggro. So we have to cancel the abilitie so we can try to get aggro back. So whats the point of even having this skill really? I dont see how it would unbalance anything to let us atleast still taunt when we use this skill.

3) Rescue i think the reuse timer should be lowered by alot. Its a nice skill but every 1800secs whats the point of that and how would having it at 900secs un balance anything? I think this skill really needs to be looked at ive used it and not even got aggro from people. Yet it states it moves you up one spot on the hate list. yet you use it and the person still has aggro on them /bog.

If im being the main tank i should have enough aggro built up that if someone happens to pull the mob off me this skill should get aggro right back but thats not the case.

Moorgard has stated they are looking at the effectiveness of the taunts for us.. which gives me hope they will give us more effective ones... As for stonestance.. my berserker has a skill called hunker down that kills all specials and improves my defense for a short while.. It also has the tendancy of letting the hate management slip away from me... I use it as a last gasp "oh crap" skill to use to let the healers catch up with me while the group tries to bring the creature down... I would rather have to deal with pulling control of the creature back then debt.... and if I die as MT, I -cant- get the thing back under control.. so living is preferable.. If the person being rescued continues with anything that raises hate, i.e. heals, buffs, wards, damage then rescue is going to be harder to use successfully.. And I agree.. we need better taunts in the monk class..

03-19-2005, 08:13 PM	#1
Lebr Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 122	We seem to do ok at tankin for the most part but....... Couple things i think would help us and not hurt the "balance" 1) Taunts need to be more effective raise the hate by 100points or so would help us keep aggro. We count on damage to help keep aggro every other tank class gets a nice heritage weapon + better taunts than us. Treant fists would be a nice heritage for us monks/bruisers. 2) StoneStance let us still beable to taunt when using this abilitie. Right now if were getting a beat down and use this we lose aggro real fast. Which makes this skill really worthless yay im rooted and cant keep aggro. So we have to cancel the abilitie so we can try to get aggro back. So whats the point of even having this skill really? I dont see how it would unbalance anything to let us atleast still taunt when we use this skill. 3) Rescue i think the reuse timer should be lowered by alot. Its a nice skill but every 1800secs whats the point of that and how would having it at 900secs un balance anything? I think this skill really needs to be looked at ive used it and not even got aggro from people. Yet it states it moves you up one spot on the hate list. yet you use it and the person still has aggro on them /bog. If im being the main tank i should have enough aggro built up that if someone happens to pull the mob off me this skill should get aggro right back but thats not the case. Anyway im a 50 monk and hope someone reads this and cares enough to check it out. Its about balance right ? anyway peace and tranquility. LeBru of the Lucan server. Message Edited by Lebru1 on 03-19-2005 07:18 AM __________________ T r a n q u i l ~ O n e

03-19-2005, 09:37 PM	#3
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Rescue works, just most people don't understand it. For one it adds hate like a normal taunt, and for two it ups you on the hate list by one. It just sucks when you aren't in second when you use it. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-19-2005 08:37 AM __________________

03-19-2005, 09:39 PM	#4
Lebr Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 122	Yeah at 50 im ok with my deflection. But being a tank type i would like our tuants to be more effective. Also would like StoneStance to be worth having but if we use it we cant taunt or do anything 9 outta 10 times we lose aggro and have to cancel Stonestance so we can taunt ect. I believe we might even beable to tank raid encounters fine if we could taunt while using Stonestance. Just my opinion thats all. /bow __________________ T r a n q u i l ~ O n e

03-19-2005, 09:42 PM	#5
Lebr Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 122	Gage Ive been tankin and had a dirge take aggro halfway thru a fight, and used rescue. I know i have to be second on its hate list and rescue wont pull aggro back. /shrug So its in need of some fixxingin my opinion. LeBru __________________ T r a n q u i l ~ O n e

03-19-2005, 09:43 PM	#6
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Lebru1 wrote: Gage Ive been tankin and had a dirge take aggro halfway thru a fight, and used rescue. I know i have to be second on its hate list and rescue wont pull aggro back. /shrug So its in need of some fixxingin my opinion. LeBru Oh yeah I think it needs tweaked, especially recast. My post was more for the other poster, not you __________________

03-19-2005, 09:03 PM	#2
NeVeRLi General Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In the shadows of the Megacorporations Posts: 113	So your happy with the way deflection works at this point in time? Me personally I want our deflection fixed. The skill rescue is pretty useless, it never does anything so I have not used in forever. Using Staggering stance at least does something with getting me agro... rescue never done a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] thing. Pretty sad when a buff helps more with agro than one of our supposed best skills for getting agro.

03-19-2005, 09:57 PM	#7
Wiou Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 672	rescue sucks.

03-19-2005, 09:59 PM	#8
NeVeRLi General Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In the shadows of the Megacorporations Posts: 113	I have been in PF and LS and tanked with my guardian friend and we both solo there. When in a group he is a better tank and get hits less than I do and takes less damage. The only way I can out tank him is if we have trobadaur in our group who can boost my agility high... well guess what that same trobadaur can out tank the guardian. With trobadaurs booting their agility over 300 they make great tanks. As for soloing the testing shows that I can tank ^^ that are 4 levels below me while my guardian friend can tank ^^ 2 levels below him. For me if a ^^ is 5 levels below me it never touches me. This not balanced and its not fun. There is no challenge! All this shows me is deflection is not working right. Why should there be this great difference? Guardians and Trobadaur tank better with out Monks, and why should a monk have to rely on them to tank good? Guardians have their super defense and trobadaurs have their amazing super high 300+ agility (at lvl 46 my trobadaur friend's agility is 326) why cant they fix the monks deflection? Why can warlock solo ^^ that are 2 levels higher than them? No other class can solo these groub monsters. Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on 03-19-2005 12:00 PM

03-19-2005, 11:22 PM	#9
Wiou Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 672	some classes are meant to be soloers. Warlocks have similar roles in many other games, they have always been great soloers.

03-19-2005, 11:26 PM	#10
NeVeRLi General Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In the shadows of the Megacorporations Posts: 113	I dont believe that. And if you do then I guess you believe all the classes are balanced.

03-20-2005, 03:19 AM	#11
i3ry General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 205	What's wrong with our agro capabilities? I can honestly say if I want agro no one else in my group is able to take it. Use your group attack buff at the beginning of the fight and keep your taunts used regularly throughout an encounter and you will never lose agro. __________________ Sir Lioz Wu the Jade Tiger, 70th Monk of Permafrost Wall of Souls

03-20-2005, 07:14 PM	#12
Lebr Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 122	Yes use everything you got group buffs taunts ect. A dirge could take aggro from you in a sec if he wants to. Unless youre talkin lower levels ? I know at 50 these things are problems. Stonestance needs a purpose other han to lose aggro, got fd for that. Our taunts are to weak and rescue dont rescue nothin. Unless you got better abilities than me i have none below adept3 most are master1's. I dont see how you couldnt of seen this in game yet. Message Edited by Lebru1 on 03-20-2005 06:18 AM __________________ T r a n q u i l ~ O n e

03-20-2005, 07:35 PM	#13
SageMarrow Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 958	IMO no class should have to use group buffs to keep or hold aggro, not a guardian on down to a monk. its power inefficient and on the other side it would be very easy and simple to give all classes a boost in thier hate/taunt skills. Im sure they have considered this, but something tells ME and only ME that they want you to have messes and such to clean up at times when things get hairy. In a monks/bruisers case its usually a bit more hairy than otherwise, but i think its intended to not over simplify things so that a wizard can nuke away and a scout and pull aggro if he over does it as well as other fighter types that may be in group. so with that being said, its a catch 22. but the additional aggro holding would be nice in a perfect world. or at least give us really strong single target taunts(edit) to boot. but it totally negates the 6+ combat arts on our hot bars if we are constantly group buffing and taunting and auto attacking. and trying to save pwer to keep up that chain of aggro building. if our dps is "supposed" to be our offset for tanking and hate building skill, personally i would suggest faster recast timers on combat arts, or if not, just simply reduce the cost of the combat arts. because holding aggro and fighting is all but impossible unless you are doing one or the other. but they should be able to find a happy medium between too much and just enough hate to keep things balanced, 100 pts should do the trick though IMO to the taunts. Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-20-2005 06:39 AM

03-21-2005, 12:53 AM	#14
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	SageMarrow wrote: IMO no class should have to use group buffs to keep or hold aggro, not a guardian on down to a monk. its power inefficient and on the other side it would be very easy and simple to give all classes a boost in thier hate/taunt skills. Why, its a good tactic. Im sure they have considered this, but something tells ME and only ME that they want you to have messes and such to clean up at times when things get hairy. In a monks/bruisers case its usually a bit more hairy than otherwise, but i think its intended to not over simplify things so that a wizard can nuke away and a scout and pull aggro if he over does it as well as other fighter types that may be in group. If you can't hold aggro its a personal issue, not a class issue. so with that being said, its a catch 22. but the additional aggro holding would be nice in a perfect world. or at least give us really strong single target taunts(edit) to boot. Our aggro control ability is awesome. but it totally negates the 6+ combat arts on our hot bars if we are constantly group buffing and taunting and auto attacking. and trying to save pwer to keep up that chain of aggro building. When your are tanking you are different responsibilities than when you are offtanking. Thus not all combat arts are applicable in all situations. Tanking = aggro control, not damage dealing. if our dps is "supposed" to be our offset for tanking and hate building skill, personally i would suggest faster recast timers on combat arts, or if not, just simply reduce the cost of the combat arts. Its a trade off for our lack of taunts/hp/mitigation; not an offset for tanking. because holding aggro and fighting is all but impossible unless you are doing one or the other. You are supposed to do one or the other. Tanking isn't about fighting, its about holding aggro. but they should be able to find a happy medium between too much and just enough hate to keep things balanced, 100 pts should do the trick though IMO to the taunts. Its fine as it is. __________________

03-21-2005, 05:20 AM	#15
SageMarrow Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 958	gage? whats the difference between off tanking and dpsing? as of now, taunts, HP, mitigation = better tanking. so you admit that you want to be a lightly armored punching bag?? i dont think thats why anyone in their right mind played a monk...which is another assumption, but for the past few days... all my assumptions have been right, so i dont know- i could be wrong this time.. not a flame or attack.. just a post in reply.. take it as such.

03-21-2005, 06:04 AM	#16
Wiou Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 672	Tard_01 wrote: I dont believe that. And if you do then I guess you believe all the classes are balanced. Is this your first day playing a MMORPG? Really.

03-21-2005, 11:04 AM	#17
NeVeRLi General Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In the shadows of the Megacorporations Posts: 113	Here's your sign.

03-21-2005, 11:45 AM	#18
SageMarrow Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 958	they aughta give us really high avoidance and make us look like neo when avoiding attacks...at that point, i wouldnt mind being a meat sheild!! thats the solution guys, we never need to throw a punch again, just give me some really fancy [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] avoidance animations and make us nearly un hittable, screw the dps, and i will be a happy camper. oh wait, the matrix online luanches day after tommorow, nevermind.:smileysad:

03-21-2005, 11:55 AM	#19
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	MO is horrible. __________________

03-21-2005, 01:23 PM	#20
Bur Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 106	If stone stance was stifle instead of whatever it supposidly is we'd be able to use most taunts under it.

03-21-2005, 03:08 PM	#21
Tweak Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 9	At 46, I have no problem tanking. It's just a very different role than solo-ing or DPS, and requires different strategies and priorities. Holding aggro always comes first. Normally my high damage and group taunts are enough (I took the quick-recast + attack-buff + taunt level-upgrade option - works great). I rarely need my single-target taunt at all. If things do get messy, the group-buff is a nice way to recover aggro. Knowing when to use Mend is also important. Saving it as a last resort will often do less good then using it to avoid that last resort ever occuring. Mend can keep the healer from having to bury themself in aggro chain-healing. In epic fights, there may be no downside, since Mend's recast timer may elapse before the fight ends.I would agree that Rescue could use improving. Considering it has a VERY long recast time, and only works on a single target, IMO it should put you at the top of the hate list, not just bump you up a spot. As it is now, it rarely does anything, and certainly doesn't live up to its' name.All in all, I have no serious complaints about the monk's role as tank. I've never had a single complaint, and often people are pleasantly amazed at how effectively a Monk can handle tanking. There have been times when people have scoffed at the idea of monk-as-tank, but I've had little problem convincing them. I always defer to another tank class if they are my level or higher, but that's as much because of how less effective they would be as DPS. The skill of the tank (and their group) is far more important than their class, which is exactly as it should be.

03-21-2005, 06:07 PM	#22
RadricTyc Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 362	Gage-Mikel wrote: MO is horrible. What don't you like about it?

03-21-2005, 07:16 PM	#23
Ala Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 185	Lebru1 wrote: We seem to do ok at tankin for the most part but....... Couple things i think would help us and not hurt the "balance" 1) Taunts need to be more effective raise the hate by 100points or so would help us keep aggro. We count on damage to help keep aggro every other tank class gets a nice heritage weapon + better taunts than us. Treant fists would be a nice heritage for us monks/bruisers. I really think our taunts are fine. I tanked orange-con ^ ^ Nightbloods and Lamias for about 4 hours and didn't lose aggro once. What helps is take yourself out of DPS mindset and taunt/ group taunt every chance the timer come up. If everyone in the group is assisting you, you should be fine. The only time when you will lose aggro is if a group member starts attacking a mob you are not. I also ask casters to not nuke until I build some hate. And with adds, most players react to being attacked by an add by attacking it back. This is the worst thing to do. If there is an add, make sure they know not to attack it so you can taunt it quickly. If they attack it begins to build hate. __________________ -Retired from EQ2. Have fun everyone!

03-21-2005, 07:17 PM	#24
Kharza Xorlarr Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 84	I have no problems with stone stance as it is now. I don't use it 24/7 like FoTM, but then again that is what FoTM is for. Stone Stance is used for the exact situation I used it the other day.. I was working on DFC access and we pulled the wandering capt and his cronies. We blew up his cronies and started working down the capt. We only had 1 healer and she pulled me out of a nasty spike and was LOP.. I proceeded to drop Stone Stance and take no dmg for the next 30 seconds while she could get some power to drop in some heals (FYI I had something like 8k ac during this time it was insane). We had the capt below 1/4 health so I had good hate already generated and didn't have to worry about taunting. Now.. I agree that we need to be able to use the taunts like Silent Threat etc.. while in Stone Stance and I think that is a bug. I've noticed I can't use those taunts even when a MOB stuns or stifles me like I'm supposed to. I don't think we need to fix Stone Stance, just the taunts that we are supposed to be able to use while stunned/stifled. Kharza 41 Monk Mistmoore Message Edited by Kharza Xorlarrin on 03-21-2005 06:18 AM

03-21-2005, 07:21 PM	#25
Ala Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 185	Lebru1 wrote: 2) StoneStance let us still beable to taunt when using this abilitie. Right now if were getting a beat down and use this we lose aggro real fast. Which makes this skill really worthless yay im rooted and cant keep aggro. So we have to cancel the abilitie so we can try to get aggro back. So whats the point of even having this skill really? I dont see how it would unbalance anything to let us atleast still taunt when we use this skill. Agreed! I just hit level 40 and was a bit dissapointed with this spell. I feel it's useless and placed it in my fun spell category. How can you have fun with it? Activate it then ask a Guardian to check out your AC, they will flip out! Two of my good friends are Guardians at the same level and they freaked out when they saw my AC was over 8,000. __________________ -Retired from EQ2. Have fun everyone!

03-21-2005, 07:26 PM	#26
Lebr Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 122	Well wait til the higher levels and tell me youre happy with stone stance. What you just described you would lose aggro soon as you used Stonestance and the mob would be all over your low on power healer. While you try to get aggro back you would watch your group mates fall. Yay stonestance worked your alive but now you have no aggro and your group is dead. We need to beable to still taunt when we use it. Otherwise its only use is when you solo Rescue doesnt work right it says it moves you up one spot on the hate list well if someone pulls aggro off you and you use it shouldnt that bring aggro right back on you ? Well it dont do that Im not saying we cant hold aggro we can if we are spamming our taunts + group buff but we shouldnt have to spam a group buff to hold aggro so up our taunts alittle and it will be fixxed. Course im talking about x2 or x4 mob encounters not your regular xp groups. These skills need to be tweaked or keep the blinders on think i dont know what ive been witness too. Regular xp stuff is not in question here never was im talking end game ect. Skill can only take you sofar. Can i make due with what i got? sure can been doing so for 50 levels. But if i see somthing that needs to be looked at im gonna post about it not just for me but for every monk out there. Message Edited by Lebru1 on 03-21-2005 06:27 AM Message Edited by Lebru1 on 03-21-2005 06:30 AM Message Edited by Lebru1 on 03-21-2005 06:35 AM __________________ T r a n q u i l ~ O n e

03-21-2005, 08:08 PM	#27
SageMarrow Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 958	stonestance = who thought that out and expected it to work... (but then again as horrible as it may seem, would be perfect for a bodygaurd situation when you just took a mob off a caster type and just need to absorb the damage until the MT can get aggro back..) but of course thats not what it was made for... We are tanks and only tanks....snicker snicker:smileyvery-happy:

03-21-2005, 08:25 PM	#28
Lebr Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 122	Yeah if you had a way to keep aggro once you use it. But thats not the case if you solo alot you might use it once or twice. If you group and use this be ready to cancel it right after you click to use it. Yay i got 10secs of better mitigation and cant use it again til the timer runs down. And i lost aggro so now i get to watch the mob bounce around my group mates. Nice skill But hey i got these two taunts and a group buff to try and get aggro back again. Working as intended? __________________ T r a n q u i l ~ O n e

03-21-2005, 08:37 PM	#29
SageMarrow Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 958	if you asked me to bet money, i would say yeah - it is working as intended... now they may go back and change it with all this hoopla bout being pure tanks as brawlers... but its a support skill.

03-21-2005, 08:38 PM	#30
ArivenGemini Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,260	Lebru1 wrote: 1) Taunts need to be more effective raise the hate by 100points or so would help us keep aggro. We count on damage to help keep aggro every other tank class gets a nice heritage weapon + better taunts than us. Treant fists would be a nice heritage for us monks/bruisers. 2) StoneStance let us still beable to taunt when using this abilitie. Right now if were getting a beat down and use this we lose aggro real fast. Which makes this skill really worthless yay im rooted and cant keep aggro. So we have to cancel the abilitie so we can try to get aggro back. So whats the point of even having this skill really? I dont see how it would unbalance anything to let us atleast still taunt when we use this skill. 3) Rescue i think the reuse timer should be lowered by alot. Its a nice skill but every 1800secs whats the point of that and how would having it at 900secs un balance anything? I think this skill really needs to be looked at ive used it and not even got aggro from people. Yet it states it moves you up one spot on the hate list. yet you use it and the person still has aggro on them /bog. If im being the main tank i should have enough aggro built up that if someone happens to pull the mob off me this skill should get aggro right back but thats not the case. Moorgard has stated they are looking at the effectiveness of the taunts for us.. which gives me hope they will give us more effective ones... As for stonestance.. my berserker has a skill called hunker down that kills all specials and improves my defense for a short while.. It also has the tendancy of letting the hate management slip away from me... I use it as a last gasp "oh crap" skill to use to let the healers catch up with me while the group tries to bring the creature down... I would rather have to deal with pulling control of the creature back then debt.... and if I die as MT, I -cant- get the thing back under control.. so living is preferable.. If the person being rescued continues with anything that raises hate, i.e. heals, buffs, wards, damage then rescue is going to be harder to use successfully.. And I agree.. we need better taunts in the monk class.. __________________