Wall of (Fury/Wrath/Rage)

[MillsFairchild]

With all this chatter about how nerfed we got, why is nobody saying anything about the Wall of (Fury/Wrath/Rage) changes? Am I wrong in saying it's a huge improvement?  No, seriously... am i missing something? I only have Wall or Wrath (Apprentice IV), but it adds close to 500 mitigation.. and it stacks with Anarchy.  I can only imagine (since I haven't seen it posted) how much Wall of Rage (Adept III) adds. IMO, the spell isn't worthless anymore.  We now have the self-mitigation buff everyone was crying for when the CU hit. Am I wrong in saying that I'd trade the old 40 agility for the new 500 mitigation anyday?

[infernus006]

I agree the only thing i'm really not happy about at the moment (besides the obvious neft to our offensive stance) is the total loss of our berserk animation...yes they completely removed it from the game.

[kille]

The old "Wall" line decreased your attack speed I believe?  Is this still the case?  I agree that the mitigation seems much better than the extra AGI.  I never used the spell before, but I may have to give it some use now.

[Pin StNeedl]

Adept3 is 770 mitigation, which is huge. 60 agility is almost meaningless for a mitigation tank under the new system, but being able to maintain (almost constantly) over 5k mitigation is very useful.

[MillsFairchild]

Yes, it still decreases your attack speed (by 14% I think).  Not a bad tradeoff at all if you need the mitigation though.

[dremtak]

i absolutely love what they have done with wall of rage sometimes when xping we get a little crazy on our chain pulls and get up too 20 mobs at some points on us at once.........man i cast chaos , wall of rage, subdued rage, and insolnet gibe...........i reach over and turn up my speakers and i swear i feel like a world war 2 tank  and i begin to roar...........i then go into my ae ca's and i just look up and thank god im a berserker

[Tudd]

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dremtak wrote:i absolutely love what they have done with wall of rage sometimes when xping we get a little crazy on our chain pulls and get up too 20 mobs at some points on us at once.........man i cast chaos , wall of rage, subdued rage, and insolnet gibe...........i reach over and turn up my speakers and i swear i feel like a world war 2 tank  and i begin to roar...........i then go into my ae ca's and i just look up and thank god im a berserker

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Haha! Yep, it's a ton of fun. :smileyvery-happy:

[-Aonein-]

Im waiting to see what happens to this CA before i blow a Rare in it, its way more powerful then intended i believe seeing i can get 71.8% solo and maxed out at 80% duo on a constant basis toggling between Chaos and just Wall of Wrath at Apprentice I ( level 41 CA.) and i dont even have the lvl 54 one made up yet which is why im waiting to see what they do to it to see if the change they do eventually make to it is worthy of a rare.

Message Edited by -Aonein- on 11-13-2005 10:48 PM

[firewolf]

I do not agree that this CA is more powerful than intended. It is just right. We got toned down in dps and get a boost in defence on the wall line. At my current level 29, it works perfectly. My mitigation does not even come remotely close to 80% when using it. Spare a thought for us that is not 50++ yet and still working out way up. Just be happy that the Dev make a positive change to a CA to allow zerker to tank better. A lot of people think that bruiser/monk makes a better tank. When zerker get a CA to boost mitigation, you come here and call it "way more powerful than intended". Your coment is like calling a major nerf on a useful CA. Have you actually tested how effective with/without wall on when MTing?

[Pin StNeedl]

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-Aonein- wrote:
Im waiting to see what happens to this CA before i blow a Rare in it, its way more powerful then intended i believe seeing i can get 71.8% solo and maxed out at 80% duo on a constant basis toggling between Chaos and just Wall of Wrath at Apprentice I ( level 41 CA.) and i dont even have the lvl 54 one made up yet which is why im waiting to see what they do to it to see if the change they do eventually make to it is worthy of a rare.

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You mean you can get to 71.8% solo for 30secs out of every 90secs. During that time, you have debuffed attack rating, attack speed and movement speed.

 

And while duo, if you are cycling between Chaos and Wall of Wrath, you can have 1 up for 60secs out of every 90secs (not a constant basis), and you do NOT have 80% mitigation in any duo while only having 1 of those buffs up.

 

But if you want to [Removed for Content] along using App I spells from the previous tier, that's your choice.

[-Aonein-]

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firewolf wrote:
I do not agree that this CA is more powerful than intended. It is just right. We got toned down in dps and get a boost in defence on the wall line. At my current level 29, it works perfectly. My mitigation does not even come remotely close to 80% when using it. Spare a thought for us that is not 50++ yet and still working out way up. Just be happy that the Dev make a positive change to a CA to allow zerker to tank better. A lot of people think that bruiser/monk makes a better tank. When zerker get a CA to boost mitigation, you come here and call it "way more powerful than intended". Your coment is like calling a major nerf on a useful CA. Have you actually tested how effective with/without wall on when MTing?

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Like i said, im waiting to see if its worth wasting a rare on in the event SoE deem it over powering and change it, we didnt need the extra mitigation before they made it mitigation, cant see any reason or havent come up against any mobs where i have needed it as yet, providing i havent done much raid tanking since DoF, but Paladins dont get no uber 30 second mitigation buff like these and they tank raid material just fine and group material as well.

We took a hit to our DPS, our you kidding me? Have you tried dual weilding any sort of decent dual weilds lately?

Surely you guys have come to terms with SoE changing what we think is a positive change by now when they want and how they want to the way they see fit?

Ill be holding off for a month or two to see how it goes, then i will upgrade it how i see fit, not because every other Berserker on the block is doing it.

[-Aonein-]

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Pin StNeedles wrote:

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-Aonein- wrote:
Im waiting to see what happens to this CA before i blow a Rare in it, its way more powerful then intended i believe seeing i can get 71.8% solo and maxed out at 80% duo on a constant basis toggling between Chaos and just Wall of Wrath at Apprentice I ( level 41 CA.) and i dont even have the lvl 54 one made up yet which is why im waiting to see what they do to it to see if the change they do eventually make to it is worthy of a rare.

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You mean you can get to 71.8% solo for 30secs out of every 90secs. During that time, you have debuffed attack rating, attack speed and movement speed.

 

And while duo, if you are cycling between Chaos and Wall of Wrath, you can have 1 up for 60secs out of every 90secs (not a constant basis), and you do NOT have 80% mitigation in any duo while only having 1 of those buffs up.

 

But if you want to [Removed for Content] along using App I spells from the previous tier, that's your choice.

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Ummm Pin, let me put this in simple terms cause i really really can not be bothered with you to be honest.

700 mitigation = 16% mitigation.

Chaos at Adept III is close to 600 to crushing and 454 to slashing and piercing but seeing as the mitigation number is not broken down into 3 parts like Avoidance is its safe to say that we dont know if the number values even change a thing except total overall mitigation % value.

Wall of Wrath ( level 44 ) at Apprentice 1 is 361 mitigation.

Wall of Rage ( level 55 ) at Adept III is 780 mitigation.

Porcupine is a little over 1 min cast timer for over 1k mitigation, Templars have a ability to heal you and add another 700+ mitigation upon death at Adept III, Visions of Madness reguardless of being on a 30 min timer brings you back to life with 1k hp or so plus the Templars ability to cast a heal on you upon death for 1k or so as well plus the 700 mitigation from that, plus 780 from Wall of Rage.

Now add into this equation ALL the buffs that now stack from lest say a Fury + Templar.......hmmmmm. Hell lets just remove the Fury and add the Templars buffs.........:smileyindifferent:

With just Chaos adept III unbuffed solo is just 66.7%, with Wall of Wrath at Apprentice 1 thats right read this part clearly, at apprentice 1 no buffs solo, my mitigation is 71.8% with Templar buffs, maxed out, if i was to get my lvl 55 Wall of Rage upgraded too Adept III, i would easily max out mitigation solo. Put a Templar in a group with me, and i max out Mitigation just using Chaos at 78.7% ( well not so much maxed but close enough once a mage class joins the group that has a few hundred extra mitigation like Conjourers for example ). Templar has all Adept III buffs. Once thats about to wear off, Fury casts Porcupine, one thats about to wear off Wall of Rage, then restart the little cycle all over again.

Hell it doesnt even have to be a Fury, it can be any other Preist class seeing as all buffs stack now providing its not two of the same class and i can easily max out my mitigation on a CONSTANT basis with out even using this ability.

So it reduces attack speed every 1 and a half mins for 36 seconds, big deal, none of the other mitigation buffs do that ie: Chaos, Porcupine etc etc, in most groups you wouldnt even need this spell, and with our Berserk buffs we are realistically only losing 10%, Decreased attack rating? Sorry i must of missed that, care to fill us in on where it says that Pin, i see decrease movement speed which doesnt mean jack when in combat unless your trying to run away which it is easily swtiched off if thats the case, Decrease attackspeed, dont see nothing in there about decreasing attack ratings.

As i said, we didnt need the buff before hand, we tanked just fine with out it and i havent needed it yet, i said needed it, but i have used it, and yes it makes a massive difference, its the type of difference that when put into the right use is very over powering.

Might be worth getting it addresed now before every other tank class jumps down our throats and gets it nerfed into obvilion before people start blowing it out of proportion on how  the ability acually works.

Anyways, Pin will pull out the EQ2 tech hand book on this one no doubt, but ill still wait to see what happens with it. If anything, its a good back up tool in the event you have a boat load of adds, hit this plus Gibe, plus VoM, plus the buff from Templar, plus Porcupine, plus some Mages get buffs that add to mitigation now also and your all set, wouldnt even need this ability to be honest.

There are smart players and lazy players.

Message Edited by -Aonein- on 11-15-2005 03:01 AM

[Pin StNeedl]

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-Aonein- wrote:

Ummm Pin, let me put this in simple terms cause i really really can not be bothered with you to be honest.

700 mitigation = 16% mitigation.

You're level 55, so 700 mitigation = 12.7%. At level 60, 700 mitigation is 11.7%

Chaos at Adept III is close to 600 to crushing and 454 to slashing and piercing but seeing as the mitigation number is not broken down into 3 parts like Avoidance is its safe to say that we dont know if the number values even change a thing except total overall mitigation % value.

Chaos (Adept III) is 567 crushing, 454 to slash/pierce. Average is 491, which is what you gain on your persona (that is the average of slash/pierce/crush mitigation, btw).

Wall of Wrath ( level 44 ) at Apprentice 1 is 361 mitigation.

Wall of Rage ( level 55 ) at Adept III is 780 mitigation.

Wall of Rage (Adept III) is 770 mitigation.

Porcupine is a little over 1 min cast timer for over 1k mitigation, Templars have a ability to heal you and add another 700+ mitigation upon death at Adept III, Visions of Madness reguardless of being on a 30 min timer brings you back to life with 1k hp or so plus the Templars ability to cast a heal on you upon death for 1k or so as well plus the 700 mitigation from that, plus 780 from Wall of Rage.

Porcupine (Adept III) is 1400 mitigation for 30sec out of 180secs (that's 3 minutes, not 1.5).

Faithful Salvation (Adept III) gives 770 mitigation averting death for 36secs, with a 10 minute recast (80% chance).

30 secs out of 180 and 30secs after death (!) do not count as maintainable to be "maxed out at 80% duo on a constant basis".

Now add into this equation ALL the buffs that now stack from lest say a Fury + Templar.......hmmmmm. Hell lets just remove the Fury and add the Templars buffs.........:smileyindifferent:

With just Chaos adept III unbuffed solo is just 66.7%, with Wall of Wrath at Apprentice 1 thats right read this part clearly, at apprentice 1 no buffs solo, my mitigation is 71.8% with Templar buffs, maxed out, if i was to get my lvl 55 Wall of Rage upgraded too Adept III, i would easily max out mitigation solo. Put a Templar in a group with me, and i max out Mitigation just using Chaos at 78.7% ( well not so much maxed but close enough once a mage class joins the group that has a few hundred extra mitigation like Conjourers for example ). Templar has all Adept III buffs. Once thats about to wear off, Fury casts Porcupine, one thats about to wear off Wall of Rage, then restart the little cycle all over again.

Hell it doesnt even have to be a Fury, it can be any other Preist class seeing as all buffs stack now providing its not two of the same class and i can easily max out my mitigation on a CONSTANT basis with out even using this ability.

Berserker + Templar + Fury = 3 people = NOT DUO.

Berserker + Templar + Conjuror/anything else = NOT DUO.

Your 66.7% is with Unflinching Will and Chaos. 71.8% is adding 361 from Wall of Wrath (App I) for 30secs out of 90.

Priest concentration-based mitigation buffs DO NOT STACK (health and power do - mitigation does not).

Valor (Adept III) is 493 mitigation.

Unflinching Will, Chaos and Valor give you 75.6%. Unflinching Will, Wall of Wrath and Valor give you 73.2%.

If you had Wall of Wrath at Adept III you would get 80.7% solo for 30secs out of 90 (vs level 55 mobs). With Courageous Will at level 60, that's ~75%.

To have 80% mitigation "on a constant basis, toggling between Chaos and just Wall of Wrath at Apprentice I", you need 3 people as a minimum (and require better armour and/or potions).

So it reduces attack speed every 1 and a half mins for 36 seconds, big deal, none of the other mitigation buffs do that ie: Chaos, Porcupine etc etc, in most groups you wouldnt even need this spell, and with our Berserk buffs we are realistically only losing 10%, Decreased attack rating? Sorry i must of missed that, care to fill us in on where it says that Pin, i see decrease movement speed which doesnt mean jack when in combat unless your trying to run away which it is easily swtiched off if thats the case, Decrease attackspeed, dont see nothing in there about decreasing attack ratings.

Decreased attack rating is from Unflinching/Courageous Will. "Decreases Slashing, Piercing and Crushing of caster by X". This means you hit less often. Also consider you are not using Unbridled Fury, so another reduction.

As i said, we didnt need the buff before hand, we tanked just fine with out it and i havent needed it yet, i said needed it, but i have used it, and yes it makes a massive difference, its the type of difference that when put into the right use is very over powering.

Might be worth getting it addresed now before every other tank class jumps down our throats and gets it nerfed into obvilion before people start blowing it out of proportion on how  the ability acually works.

The boost put us level with Guardians in terms of mitigation buffing (actually, slightly behind for slash/pierce, ahead for crush). This was a much-needed increase and I would not think for a second that it will revoked anytime in the near/medium-term.

Anyways, Pin will pull out the EQ2 tech hand book on this one no doubt, but ill still wait to see what happens with it.

When virtually everything you posted is false, someone certainly should bring out some real numbers.

If anything, its a good back up tool in the event you have a boat load of adds, hit this plus Gibe, plus VoM, plus the buff from Templar, plus Porcupine, plus some Mages get buffs that add to mitigation now also and your all set, wouldnt even need this ability to be honest.

There are smart players and lazy players.

Riiiight.

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[-Aonein-]

:smileyvery-happy:

My numbers were out by what Pin? 10 at the most? and how much does 10 mitigation acually effect the overall mitigation %, 0.2%? By the way, notice i said close too 600 mitigation on Chaos seeing i wasnt logged in and couldnt remeber exact numbers.

The rest of the information is entirely correct Pin, not sure why or how you get 700 mitigation = 12% but for me when i remove my BP and Legs at 55, i lose 15.9% mitigation. Watching it right now change as i remove the gear.

Exactally right Pin, im still using Unflinching Will, im glad you picked that up which basically means i have yet to get Courageous Will Adept III and Wall of Rage Adept III. Now i hate to burst your bubble Pin, but why would i use Unflinching Will and Wall of Wrath at level 60 when there is upgrades to the spell which easily put me at 80% capped with a Templar in the group reguardless of the downtime on the spell itself, thats 60 seconds of maxed out mitigation which i noticed in this whole argument of yours you failed to mention that the Wall line is a 60 second recast timer meaning that yes, its not a 60 second cycle, its a 30 second cycle over a 60 second period. Meaning that in every 60 second period you are without the buffs for 30 seconds, not 60 like you try to state.

Templar + Berserker + Fury is not duo? Glad you pointed that out, wait a sec, did i say it was a duo? Trying to twist things yet again Pin? It was a example at how easily it is to maintain maxed out Mitigation Pin and reguardless of the Fury recast timer on porcupine seeing that without the Porcupine its 30 second cycle as it is. If the fight looks Iffy cast VoM + Faithful Salvation and watch you be raised from the dead with max HP regen, 2k hp and maxed out mitigation, i wonder if any other tank class gets that type of survivability............:smileyindifferent:

By the way Pin, none of your numbers line up with the numbers i get, for starters, Wall of Wrath 60 seconds reuse timer, not 90 seconds. Like i said above it works out to be a 30 second cycle, not 60. Chaos is 90 seconds. At lvl 60 With Adept III Rage + Choas Adept III + Courageous Will Adept III = 4700 mitigation / 77% mitigation Solo give or take a few percent dpeneding on quaility of gear. In this case it was a mix of Cobalt + T6 fabled which is easily obtainable without a raid as long as you are high enough level to do the group instances on a daily basis to farm the T6 fabled.

A small word on attack rating, your factoring in the debuff from our Defensive stance when we are talking about the Wall line, besides, when fighting Orange mobs it doesnt matter what you can buff your skills too, your still going to miss them alot due to them being desinged that way with LU#13, i tested this on mobs that were one level above yellow in Pillars with Unbridled Fury Adept III going, i cant even kill them and had to run them off. Yellow cons NP, killed them not a problem, these are the solo Sabertooths with no arrows down or up. By the way i was lvl 54 when i attempted that.

Thing i find most interesting about all this Pin is, you class using Defensive stance and not being able to use Unbridled Fury two types of decreasements when the both dont even stack, so realistically its ethier a increase or a decrease, not two decreasements.

For the record Pin, Guardians got the same upgrade to their Wall line also, not real sure how you think this put us on par with Guardians when they also recieved the same upgrade............:smileyindifferent: Oh since you like to derail stuff, here you forgot about some buffs, what about subdued rage, there is another decreasement.

Anyway Pin, your always 100% correct no matter what people put on the table for you, so what ever man, ill keep on waiting for a month or so, im not going anywhere and like i said, i didnt need this buff to tank before the changes, and i havent needed it yet, the Berserkers we have that MT for our raids didnt need this buff to tank raid material before the changes and they hardly even use it now, the only reason i see it useful for is agro generation when you get a massive boat load of adds to help Gibe seeing as the movement speed is acually a area of effect.

How many fights do you fight that have a boat load of unlinked encounters now days?

[-Mor]

With all due respect, Guardians can achieve higher self Mit, and sustained, than Zerks, considering our aggro mamangement is shocking compared to Pallies and Guards (oh lord, I'd trade my left nut for an aggro drain), I dont see how being able to burst buff our mit is an issue, I raid tank a lot and I can tell you for the 45 odd seconds you have no burst buff avaialble you feel a lot of pain, and if you don't have a fury popping Porcupine up on you your gonna get spanked and hard (try raiding without TeamSpeak and co ordinating buffs, yer right).

 

I feel that the current round of changes is a step in the right direction, we have been defined as a tank, pure and simple, that being the case we need more tank like ablities, cry nerf or over power all you like but I've been a Zerk since the 9th of Novenber and seen our class change many times, I have never been a whinger nor do I have anything negative to say about my class because I like being a Zerk, if you hate these changes go roll a Bruiser and try to tank a raid mob thats level 67, one shot and down goes the Brawler barr none.

 

We are a hybrid class guys, you can't have your cake and eat it too... And for a long time we ate everyones cake

[Pin StNeedl]

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-Aonein- wrote:

The rest of the information is entirely correct Pin, not sure why or how you get 700 mitigation = 12% but for me when i remove my BP and Legs at 55, i lose 15.9% mitigation. Watching it right now change as i remove the gear.

You have cobalt legs and chest. that's 403mit each = 806. That's substantially higher than 700. It's also not giving you what you claim.

Exactally right Pin, im still using Unflinching Will, im glad you picked that up which basically means i have yet to get Courageous Will Adept III and Wall of Rage Adept III. Now i hate to burst your bubble Pin, but why would i use Unflinching Will and Wall of Wrath at level 60 when there is upgrades to the spell which easily put me at 80% capped with a Templar in the group

No it will not, because your 80% mitigation at level 55 is only good for 73% at level 60 (or versus level 60 mobs, to be more precise). The upgrades to those 2 lines will not translate to massive upgrades to your displayed mitigation percentage.

 reguardless of the downtime on the spell itself, thats 60 seconds of maxed out mitigation which i noticed in this whole argument of yours you failed to mention that the Wall line is a 60 second recast timer meaning that yes, its not a 60 second cycle, its a 30 second cycle over a 60 second period. Meaning that in every 60 second period you are without the buffs for 30 seconds, not 60 like you try to state.

Try again. Wall of XXXX has a 1 minute recast timer which begins from when you toggle it off, or when it expires. As the duration is 30 seconds, it is up for at most, 30secs of 90.

At 60, with Courageous Will, Chaos, Wall of Rage, Valor (all Adept III) and full cobalt, you JUST manage to cap at 80% mitigation for 30seconds out of 90. If you keep 1 buff running for 60s of 90, you will fall at 66% and 72% duo.

That is not 80% against a level 60 mob at level 60 either.

Templar + Berserker + Fury is not duo? Glad you pointed that out, wait a sec, did i say it was a duo?

As you claimed you could be at capped mitigation constantly as a duo, then stated you required the 3 people...

By the way Pin, none of your numbers line up with the numbers i get, for starters, Wall of Wrath 60 seconds reuse timer, not 90 seconds.

90, not 60.

Like i said above it works out to be a 30 second cycle, not 60. Chaos is 90 seconds. At lvl 60 With Adept III Rage + Choas Adept III + Courageous Will Adept III = 4700 mitigation / 77% mitigation Solo give or take a few percent dpeneding on quaility of gear. In this case it was a mix of Cobalt + T6 fabled which is easily obtainable without a raid as long as you are high enough level to do the group instances on a daily basis to farm the T6 fabled.

At level 60, with 4 pieces of T6 fabled (3 cobalt) and Adept III of each of those buffs, I get 4619 mitigation = 74.9% solo.

For the record Pin, Guardians got the same upgrade to their Wall line also, not real sure how you think this put us on par with Guardians when they also recieved the same upgrade............:smileyindifferent: Oh since you like to derail stuff, here you forgot about some buffs, what about subdued rage, there is another decreasement.

Before LU16, Guardians had their second short-term mitigation buff on Entrench/Anchor/Plant and was moved to their Wall line (Plant was actually 840 mit at adept3, which dropped to 770 as Wall is a lower level spell). Thus we're now on par with Guardians...

Anyway Pin, your always 100% correct no matter what people put on the table for you, so what ever man

And still you keep putting hog's liver on the table. I have no idea what goes round in your head, but virtually everything you post is worthless. I'd have put you on ignore long ago, but really... Someone has to correct this garbage that flows from your fingertips everytime you log on to these forums.

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[-Aonein-]

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Pin StNeedles wrote:

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-Aonein- wrote:

The rest of the information is entirely correct Pin, not sure why or how you get 700 mitigation = 12% but for me when i remove my BP and Legs at 55, i lose 15.9% mitigation. Watching it right now change as i remove the gear.

You have cobalt legs and chest. that's 403mit each = 806. That's substantially higher than 700. It's also not giving you what you claim.

Ok Pin, lets see 3088 unbuffed mitigation = 57.9% take off legs and BP = 2281unbuffed mitigation = 42.4%.   57.9 - 42.4 = 15.5%. Or you can do it backwards and say 42.4 - 57.9 = -15.5.

806 mitigation = 15.5% mitigation.

780 mitigation will roughly work out to be 15.2% mitigation.

My fault i was 0.4% out i used a caculator to check my math..........

Exactally right Pin, im still using Unflinching Will, im glad you picked that up which basically means i have yet to get Courageous Will Adept III and Wall of Rage Adept III. Now i hate to burst your bubble Pin, but why would i use Unflinching Will and Wall of Wrath at level 60 when there is upgrades to the spell which easily put me at 80% capped with a Templar in the group

No it will not, because your 80% mitigation at level 55 is only good for 73% at level 60 (or versus level 60 mobs, to be more precise). The upgrades to those 2 lines will not translate to massive upgrades to your displayed mitigation percentage.

Yeah using lvl 44 buffs. Like i keep stating i have yet to get my lvl 58 Defensive stance and upgrade wall of Rage to Adept III quaility.

 reguardless of the downtime on the spell itself, thats 60 seconds of maxed out mitigation which i noticed in this whole argument of yours you failed to mention that the Wall line is a 60 second recast timer meaning that yes, its not a 60 second cycle, its a 30 second cycle over a 60 second period. Meaning that in every 60 second period you are without the buffs for 30 seconds, not 60 like you try to state.

Try again. Wall of XXXX has a 1 minute recast timer which begins from when you toggle it off, or when it expires. As the duration is 30 seconds, it is up for at most, 30secs of 90.

At 60, with Courageous Will, Chaos, Wall of Rage, Valor (all Adept III) and full cobalt, you JUST manage to cap at 80% mitigation for 30seconds out of 90. If you keep 1 buff running for 60s of 90, you will fall at 66% and 72% duo.

Ok Pin, lets see, Solo i have 57.9% mitigation with Unflinching Will Adept III, with Valor Adept III i have 65.9%, with Chaos Adept III i have 74.7%, with Valor + Wall of Wrath Apprentice I i have 71%. With Choas + Valor + Unflinching Will + Wall of Wrath i have 79.1% mitigation. Thats using 2 level 44 CA's at lvl 55 which i have yet to recieve my lvl 58 Defensive stance and i have yet to get another 409 mitigation from just Wall of Rage alone in the event i decide to upgrade it to Adept III.

That is not 80% against a level 60 mob at level 60 either.

So at lvl 60 when you can cap out 80% mitigation which is pretty easy to do in raid + group sceanrios now with no hassle to do so what so ever, 80% mitigation isnt really 80% mitigation vs a lvl 60 mob? Could of fooled me Pin, as the persona window is based on a mob same level as you........

Templar + Berserker + Fury is not duo? Glad you pointed that out, wait a sec, did i say it was a duo?

As you claimed you could be at capped mitigation constantly as a duo, then stated you required the 3 people...

Again your reading comprehension ability fails you Pin, never said it was a duo and i explained why i mentioned the Fury which you failed to copy / paste in there as well.

By the way Pin, none of your numbers line up with the numbers i get, for starters, Wall of Wrath 60 seconds reuse timer, not 90 seconds.

90, not 60.

Its bugged then and needs to be reported to get its reuse timer started upon use, same as Chaos does and all other CA's like this. Unless of course there a concentration based buff which then there recast timers start after you have canceled them out.

Like i said above it works out to be a 30 second cycle, not 60. Chaos is 90 seconds. At lvl 60 With Adept III Rage + Choas Adept III + Courageous Will Adept III = 4700 mitigation / 77% mitigation Solo give or take a few percent dpeneding on quaility of gear. In this case it was a mix of Cobalt + T6 fabled which is easily obtainable without a raid as long as you are high enough level to do the group instances on a daily basis to farm the T6 fabled.

At level 60, with 4 pieces of T6 fabled (3 cobalt) and Adept III of each of those buffs, I get 4619 mitigation = 74.9% solo.

Exactally like i said give or take a few percent depending on quaility of Gear Pin, learn to read or do you always need to have the last say thinking you have caught me out when i clearly stated that above your reply?

For the record Pin, Guardians got the same upgrade to their Wall line also, not real sure how you think this put us on par with Guardians when they also recieved the same upgrade............:smileyindifferent: Oh since you like to derail stuff, here you forgot about some buffs, what about subdued rage, there is another decreasement.

Before LU16, Guardians had their second short-term mitigation buff on Entrench/Anchor/Plant and was moved to their Wall line (Plant was actually 840 mit at adept3, which dropped to 770 as Wall is a lower level spell). Thus we're now on par with Guardians...

Thus is the reason we face a chance of it being reduced in mitigation because we do more DPS then a Guardian there fore shouldnt be on par with them at all.

Anyway Pin, your always 100% correct no matter what people put on the table for you, so what ever man

And still you keep putting hog's liver on the table. I have no idea what goes round in your head, but virtually everything you post is worthless. I'd have put you on ignore long ago, but really... Someone has to correct this garbage that flows from your fingertips everytime you log on to these forums.

Pin im getting my information directly from the game sitting here talking in Ventrilo with other Players and comapiring it with them, not sure where you are getting your information from but i find it quite funny you think you are once again correct, like always.

---

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You bite the hook rather well Pin.

[Tudd]

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-Aonein- wrote:

---

Pin StNeedles wrote:

---

-Aonein- wrote:

The rest of the information is entirely correct Pin, not sure why or how you get 700 mitigation = 12% but for me when i remove my BP and Legs at 55, i lose 15.9% mitigation. Watching it right now change as i remove the gear.

You have cobalt legs and chest. that's 403mit each = 806. That's substantially higher than 700. It's also not giving you what you claim.

Ok Pin, lets see 3088 unbuffed mitigation = 57.9% take off legs and BP = 2281unbuffed mitigation = 42.4%.   57.9 - 42.4 = 15.5%. Or you can do it backwards and say 42.4 - 57.9 = -15.5.

806 mitigation = 15.5% mitigation.

780 mitigation will roughly work out to be 15.2% mitigation.

My fault i was 0.4% out i used a caculator to check my math..........

Here's where you get 700 mitigation equals 12%, or close.

700/5500 = 12.72%. Your level 55, which means 100% mitigation vs. an opponent your level would be 5500. Divide 700 by 5500.

3088/5500 = 56.14%. 2281/5500 = 41.47%.

CA's give raw (base) mitigation. So if a CA says it gives 400 mitigation, and a piece of gear says it gives 400 mitigation, that doesn't mean they both provide the same level of mitigation. You can't compare the mitigation value of a CA and a piece of gear, because one is modified, the other is not.

The quality of the armor gear affects it's mitigation value. So even though a T6 Legendary item may show 350 mitigation and a T6 Fabled shows the same, the percentage mitigation will be higher on the Fabled gear.

Nothing wrong with your calculator, but you need to realize that you can't use the raw mitigation numbers on armor to calculate percentages. However, you can use the raw mitigation numbers on CA's to do straight calculations, because there are no modifiers on them. The number you see is what you get. Not so with armor.

Exactally right Pin, im still using Unflinching Will, im glad you picked that up which basically means i have yet to get Courageous Will Adept III and Wall of Rage Adept III. Now i hate to burst your bubble Pin, but why would i use Unflinching Will and Wall of Wrath at level 60 when there is upgrades to the spell which easily put me at 80% capped with a Templar in the group

No it will not, because your 80% mitigation at level 55 is only good for 73% at level 60 (or versus level 60 mobs, to be more precise). The upgrades to those 2 lines will not translate to massive upgrades to your displayed mitigation percentage.

Yeah using lvl 44 buffs. Like i keep stating i have yet to get my lvl 58 Defensive stance and upgrade wall of Rage to Adept III quaility.

 reguardless of the downtime on the spell itself, thats 60 seconds of maxed out mitigation which i noticed in this whole argument of yours you failed to mention that the Wall line is a 60 second recast timer meaning that yes, its not a 60 second cycle, its a 30 second cycle over a 60 second period. Meaning that in every 60 second period you are without the buffs for 30 seconds, not 60 like you try to state.

Try again. Wall of XXXX has a 1 minute recast timer which begins from when you toggle it off, or when it expires. As the duration is 30 seconds, it is up for at most, 30secs of 90.

At 60, with Courageous Will, Chaos, Wall of Rage, Valor (all Adept III) and full cobalt, you JUST manage to cap at 80% mitigation for 30seconds out of 90. If you keep 1 buff running for 60s of 90, you will fall at 66% and 72% duo.

Ok Pin, lets see, Solo i have 57.9% mitigation with Unflinching Will Adept III, with Valor Adept III i have 65.9%, with Chaos Adept III i have 74.7%, with Valor + Wall of Wrath Apprentice I i have 71%. With Choas + Valor + Unflinching Will + Wall of Wrath i have 79.1% mitigation. Thats using 2 level 44 CA's at lvl 55 which i have yet to recieve my lvl 58 Defensive stance and i have yet to get another 409 mitigation from just Wall of Rage alone in the event i decide to upgrade it to Adept III.

That is not 80% against a level 60 mob at level 60 either.

So at lvl 60 when you can cap out 80% mitigation which is pretty easy to do in raid + group sceanrios now with no hassle to do so what so ever, 80% mitigation isnt really 80% mitigation vs a lvl 60 mob? Could of fooled me Pin, as the persona window is based on a mob same level as you........

Templar + Berserker + Fury is not duo? Glad you pointed that out, wait a sec, did i say it was a duo?

As you claimed you could be at capped mitigation constantly as a duo, then stated you required the 3 people...

Again your reading comprehension ability fails you Pin, never said it was a duo and i explained why i mentioned the Fury which you failed to copy / paste in there as well.

By the way Pin, none of your numbers line up with the numbers i get, for starters, Wall of Wrath 60 seconds reuse timer, not 90 seconds.

90, not 60.

Its bugged then and needs to be reported to get its reuse timer started upon use, same as Chaos does and all other CA's like this. Unless of course there a concentration based buff which then there recast timers start after you have canceled them out.

Like i said above it works out to be a 30 second cycle, not 60. Chaos is 90 seconds. At lvl 60 With Adept III Rage + Choas Adept III + Courageous Will Adept III = 4700 mitigation / 77% mitigation Solo give or take a few percent dpeneding on quaility of gear. In this case it was a mix of Cobalt + T6 fabled which is easily obtainable without a raid as long as you are high enough level to do the group instances on a daily basis to farm the T6 fabled.

At level 60, with 4 pieces of T6 fabled (3 cobalt) and Adept III of each of those buffs, I get 4619 mitigation = 74.9% solo.

Exactally like i said give or take a few percent depending on quaility of Gear Pin, learn to read or do you always need to have the last say thinking you have caught me out when i clearly stated that above your reply?

For the record Pin, Guardians got the same upgrade to their Wall line also, not real sure how you think this put us on par with Guardians when they also recieved the same upgrade............:smileyindifferent: Oh since you like to derail stuff, here you forgot about some buffs, what about subdued rage, there is another decreasement.

Before LU16, Guardians had their second short-term mitigation buff on Entrench/Anchor/Plant and was moved to their Wall line (Plant was actually 840 mit at adept3, which dropped to 770 as Wall is a lower level spell). Thus we're now on par with Guardians...

Thus is the reason we face a chance of it being reduced in mitigation because we do more DPS then a Guardian there fore shouldnt be on par with them at all.

Guardians still have higher mitigation and avoidance due to their their defensive buffs being overall superior to Berserkers. All this change to the Wall line has done is remove the huge difference that was there before when Guardians had Plant and we had...nothing comparable. Due to this, Guardians can get by with lesser quality buffs then Berserkers can to reach the same numbers and retain a decent lead when buff quality is the same.

Anyway Pin, your always 100% correct no matter what people put on the table for you, so what ever man

And still you keep putting hog's liver on the table. I have no idea what goes round in your head, but virtually everything you post is worthless. I'd have put you on ignore long ago, but really... Someone has to correct this garbage that flows from your fingertips everytime you log on to these forums.

Pin im getting my information directly from the game sitting here talking in Ventrilo with other Players and comapiring it with them, not sure where you are getting your information from but i find it quite funny you think you are once again correct, like always.

---

Actually, in a way, your both correct. The thing that is throwing off your comparison of numbers is he is using raw values on CA's to come up with percentages, which will show a true value. Your looking at the raw values on your armor and noting the percentage drop and equating that XXX mitigation = percentage of mitigation, which is deceiving. Not that you are purposefully deceiving, but the percentage decrease you see isn't based on raw mitigation value, but raw mitigation value with a modifier based on the armor type. To clearly illustrate: Cobalt BP raw mitigation shown (403) + Cobalt legs raw mitigation shown (403) = 806 806/5500 = 14.66% Now, when you took off your breastplate and leggings, you saw a decrease of 15.5%. Which means that .9% of your mitigation percentage shown is being generated by the armor tier/quality modifier. Also of note, as you level the tier/quality modifier gets reduced. Which is the reason why T5 Fabled when equipped shows a lower mitigation percentage then, say, a T6 legendary item with roughly the same raw mitigation value. The T6 item is getting it's bonuses applied, while the T5 Fabled bonus is either reduced or eliminated, depending on the difference between your current level and the level of the gear. This is what in effect is meant by an item "going grey". Once an item is grey, you get no more mitigation bonuses from it.

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You bite the hook rather well Pin.

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Edited: To expand on the subject of armor tier/quality

Message Edited by Tuddar on 11-15-2005 02:28 AM

[Tudd]

Templar + Berserker + Fury is not duo? Glad you pointed that out, wait a sec, did i say it was a duo?

As you claimed you could be at capped mitigation constantly as a duo, then stated you required the 3 people...

Again your reading comprehension ability fails you Pin, never said it was a duo and i explained why i mentioned the Fury which you failed to copy / paste in there as well.

I think his reading comprehension is fine, since you said this towards the start of the thread:

I'm waiting to see what happens to this CA before i blow a Rare in it, its way more powerful then intended i believe seeing i can get 71.8% solo and maxed out at 80% duo on a constant basis toggling between Chaos and just Wall of Wrath at Apprentice I ( level 41 CA.) and i dont even have the lvl 54 one made up yet which is why im waiting to see what they do to it to see if the change they do eventually make to it is worthy of a rare.

[-Aonein-]

Some excellent points Tuddar, one question though.

When i run my numbers through that same system you suggested for raw mitigation value, im getting a 0.5614 for example for the 3088/5500 one, same for 700/5500 = 0.1272, so how are you sure that its giving you a true raw base value with no mitigation bonus based on level?

[Tudd]

Lest people forget, there's a reason there is a mitigation cap. It doesn't matter if you can combine X+Y+Z to reach it, or can reach it using only X+Y, or can sustain reaching the cap 50% or 100% of the time. The cap is there to prevent players from being able to completely trivialize an encounter, ala Pre-LU13. So stop worrying about how easily you can reach the cap or for how long you can maintain it. The combat mechanics are built around the fact that reaching the cap is possible, and encounters designed with this in mind.

[Tudd]

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-Aonein- wrote:

Some excellent points Tuddar, one question though.

When i run my numbers through that same system you suggested for raw mitigation value, im getting a 0.5614 for example for the 3088/5500 one, same for 700/5500 = 0.1272, so how are you sure that its giving you a true raw base value with no mitigation bonus based on level?

---

Not sure I completely understand your question. My interpretation of your question is 'How do you know the true raw base value *of a CA* is not recieving bonus based on level. If my understanding of your question is correct, it's easy to highlight that CA's modify raw values and have no bonuses. Now, as a Lvl 60 Berseker stripped down, my mitigation value shows different values. One time I stripped down and it showed 40. Another time I stripped down, it showed 57. Obviously their calculations for mitigation seem to be bugged out when your nekid, probably due to some calculation with traits in regards to bonuses vs certain damage type, i.e crushing. Regardless of whatever value it was showing, when I cast my Wall of Rage(Adept1) with 660 mitigation, my mitigation % shown in game was 11%. 660/6000 = 11.0% Now, if there had been some type of bonus, I should have seen it, since I'm 60 and the spell is 55. Now, if your refering to *armor*, you can easily see that when you equip an item, your raw mitigation value goes up exactly the amount shown on the item. However, the percentage will change based on the quality. Here is a post that clearly highlights what happens to armor quality bonuses when you level: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=47459#M47459

Message Edited by Tuddar on 11-15-2005 04:31 AM

[Flor]

No offense -Aonein- , but it seems you havent done ANY raiding post expansion. Please refrain from commenting on stuff you have no idea and wont have any idea for another 4-5 months. I see you talking a lot of bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on these forums and in game , stuff you just making up trying to look like you have any idea what you are talking about.

[-Aonein-]

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Florin wrote:

No offense -Aonein- , but it seems you havent done ANY raiding post expansion.

Please refrain from commenting on stuff you have no idea and wont have any idea for another 4-5 months.

I see you talking a lot of bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on these forums and in game , stuff you just making up trying to look like you have any idea what you are talking about.

---

Florin no sig i take it? Hmm i wonder who you could be to know me in game.....

Ok for starters we raid every night when possible, and our Guardians dont even use their Wall line which is identical to ours because you obviously have no clue how easy it is to reach max mitigation raid buffed, and im suppose to be the one who has no clue Florin here remember.......

Not really sure what im making up when Tuddar clearly pointed out that both Pin and myself both have a point, it did you fail to read that?

Message Edited by -Aonein- on 11-15-2005 11:26 PM

[-Aonein-]

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Tuddar wrote:

---

-Aonein- wrote:

Some excellent points Tuddar, one question though.

When i run my numbers through that same system you suggested for raw mitigation value, im getting a 0.5614 for example for the 3088/5500 one, same for 700/5500 = 0.1272, so how are you sure that its giving you a true raw base value with no mitigation bonus based on level?

---

Not sure I completely understand your question. My interpretation of your question is 'How do you know the true raw base value *of a CA* is not recieving bonus based on level.

If my understanding of your question is correct, it's easy to highlight that CA's modify raw values and have no bonuses.

Now, as a Lvl 60 Berseker stripped down, my mitigation value shows different values. One time I stripped down and it showed 40. Another time I stripped down, it showed 57. Obviously their calculations for mitigation seem to be bugged out when your nekid, probably due to some calculation with traits in regards to bonuses vs certain damage type, i.e crushing. Regardless of whatever value it was showing, when I cast my Wall of Rage(Adept1) with 660 mitigation, my mitigation % shown in game was 11%.

660/6000 = 11.0%

Now, if there had been some type of bonus, I should have seen it, since I'm 60 and the spell is 55.

Now, if your refering to *armor*, you can easily see that when you equip an item, your raw mitigation value goes up exactly the amount shown on the item. However, the percentage will change based on the quality.

Here is a post that clearly highlights what happens to armor quality bonuses when you level: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=47459#M47459

Message Edited by Tuddar on 11-15-2005 04:31 AM

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Sorry i should of made myself a little more clear Tuddar, i mean when i run the claculation the same way you did im getting a 0.xxxxx number, so how do you know that its the raw value of the armors mitigation, reguardless what level you are, like you said 5500 mitigation at 55 would be 100%, 6000 at 60 = 100% etc etc, so i was wondering seeing for example 3088/5500 = 0.5214 your coming up with 52.14%. 700/5500 = 0.1272 where you have 12.72%.

I guess what i am asking you is why are you removing the 0. and just saying that it is 52.14% or 12.72% when the decimal point is in the 0.5214 or 0.1272.

[Flor]

So how can a spell be overpowered if "is so easy to hit the cap" on mittigation? Useless should be your term, as you can say is not even used due to the fact you can get to the 80% even without it. And pls, raiding Coldtooth every night doesnt count as raid expirience. When you will grow up and start the real raiding, you will see the real use of this spell. Sometime the group setup wont let you go full mittigation. Then you will need this. Last night, i was at 5500 mittigation using this in Living Tomb raid instance.  And it is a must. Lv 63^^^ x 4 snake hits between 4-6 k through 80% mittigation. Normal default piercing attack. You NEED those 36 sec of boosted mittigation so your raid has enough time to apply the debuffs. It might seem overpowered at your lv 55, fighting lv 55 mobs, but pls dont be short sighted. The game doesnt end at lv 55. the spells dont grow with level anymore.

[-Aonein-]

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Florin wrote:

So how can a spell be overpowered if "is so easy to hit the cap" on mittigation? Useless should be your term, as you can say is not even used due to the fact you can get to the 80% even without it.

And pls, raiding Coldtooth every night doesnt count as raid expirience.

When you will grow up and start the real raiding, you will see the real use of this spell.

Sometime the group setup wont let you go full mittigation. Then you will need this.

Last night, i was at 5500 mittigation using this in Living Tomb raid instance.  And it is a must. Lv 63^^^ x 4 snake hits between 4-6 k through 80% mittigation. Normal default piercing attack.

You NEED those 36 sec of boosted mittigation so your raid has enough time to apply the debuffs.


It might seem overpowered at your lv 55, fighting lv 55 mobs, but pls dont be short sighted. The game doesnt end at lv 55. the spells dont grow with level anymore.

---

So you guys are still only raiding Gates? You tried God King or has your guild even started progress on Access to the Inner Tomb yet? Has your guild started working on how to pop the Twin Dragons and or even tested them yet? Have you cleared out lockjaws lair? I can honestly say about the only mob i havent seen us do DoF is Terrorantula as yet. Not sure why we havent tried him because im not a raid leader...........but i will say he has been beat on our server.

Anyway, from the very first post i posted i was never refering to a raid point of view, its been small group all the way. Florin i never said it wasnt a useful CA, i suggested that it may be overpowering and if anyone has followed SoE's adjustment history should of learned by now at least that anything can be changed for no reason at all when and where they want, so all im saying is just dont rely on it too much seeing as it is atm, we tank almost identically as a Guardian give or take a few defense and do DPS like a Monk. Tell me you dont think thats intended do you?

What i dont understand is why are poeple still saying that Berserkers cant tank? You have got to be kidding me.

Anyways, ill just hold off for awhile till i upgrade this too lvl 55 Adept III Wall of Rage and just stick with Wall of Wrath Apprentice ! seeing thats all i need right now, when i do use it that is which is hardly ever. Didnt need it before, no other Berserkers who knew how to tank didnt need it before, and Guardians didnt need it before also. Dont see why we need it know seeing as we are almost flagged for Inner Tomb now and we got this far with out it.

[firewolf]

Aonein, your thinking is really beyond me. You claim that Wall line of CA is "way overpowered" even at app1 quality then make another claim that it will not be used on raid. If my logic is correct, you are saying that the useless Wall line of CA is "way overpowered than intended", therefore it will be adjusted  in the future. :smileyvery-happy:

[-Aonein-]

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firewolf wrote:
Aonein, your thinking is really beyond me. You claim that Wall line of CA is "way overpowered" even at app1 quality then make another claim that it will not be used on raid. If my logic is correct, you are saying that the useless Wall line of CA is "way overpowered than intended", therefore it will be adjusted  in the future. :smileyvery-happy:

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Ummm yes in a small group point of view its pretty strong CA and has the potential to be nerfed, in a riad point of view is basically useless seeing that with correct group set ups its not even needed. Unless you feel its needed to snare mobs movement speed then sure, what ever floats your boat.

Like Pin pointed out a few posts back that this puts us on par with guardians tanking and he is 100% correct, it does, but now we do Monk style DPS and tank like a Guardian, intended?

So let me ask this, if there is the possibility of a future nerf, and we had a choice, what would you chose, lose DPS to keep our Wall line mitigation or lose some mitigation of Wall line to keep DPS? Simple question, no thought required or very little at least.

[Pin StNeedl]

Okay Taemek, as you only seem capable of writing down inaccurate numbers, with no understanding of what they mean, or their effect, I'll try to take you through it from the top.

As Tuddar mentioned, mitigation values and mitigation percentages are not wholly meaningful. You cannot base many arguments on those values alone - you must also consider the level of your equipment and mobs you are fighting.

In the old system it was simple. Take the mitigation value on your equipment or buff and divide by the level of the opponent you are facing. So a Cobalt BP would have been 403/60 = 6.7% mitigation against a level 60 mob, and Wall of Rage (Adept III) would have been 770/55 = 14% against a level 55 mob.

But now there is an additional factor applied, comparing the level of your armour against the level of the opponent.

For example, a full set of cobalt armour will provide you with roughly 2700 mitigation. This mitigation is from level 50 armour, which is good at protecting you against opponents you would face around level 50.
Specifically, it will protect in roughly the same manner against opponents around level 57 (i.e. 2700/57 = 47.3%). Opponents lower than this face higher than expected mitigation, opponents higher than this face lower than expected mitigation. (Note that this is not based on your level, but is based on the level of your armour).

Now notice that you do not get information back from the UI about mitigation versus different opponents - only a percentage against opponents of your level, so you don't see this effect unless you change your level. Right now, you're still sat in the sweet spot for your cobalt armour (actually receiving a small bonus to mitigation against level 55 opponents). When you are 60, you'll see the mitigation percentage versus a level 60 opponent (10 levels above your armour) and you'll see an approximate 6% penalty. And this becomes a ~20% penalty for level 65 opponents, etc.

Similar modifications apply for mitigation buffs, i.e. mitigation buffs use the average level-based modifier from your armour when displaying their protection (it uses no modifier when naked).

 

So, with all that laid out, I'll tell you that despite your cobalt set and App I T5 mitigation buffs providing you enough protection against level 55 solo Xp mobs, you will see much less protection as you gain levels and fight higher-level content.

And those level 60 tank friends of yours who are seeing periods of "capped" 80% mitigation in their persona windows while raiding and claim they do not need another mitigation buff because it's useless clearly don't realise that 80% versus level 60 is only ~60% against a level 65, and down to ~40% against higher (as well as the mobs having harder base hits due to their level).

 

 

Oh... also note that exactly the same system goes for resists (as they're just mitigation versus magical attacks) - low level resist gear is not adequate against high level mobs.