Paladin changes - summary on test

[Antryg Mistrose]

My legendary geared/spelled paladin comparing test to live:

Amends

Is no longer a hate transfer, and now has upgrades at levels 63 (Reparation), and 73 (Restitution).  AppIVs and AdeptIIIs have made it in to alchemist spell books

New effects (Restitution adeptIII):

• 1 threat position increase
• 5.1-6.3k threat instantly and every 4sec for 20sec
• 15m range
• 0.18sec cast, instant recovery, 27.3 recast (assuming STR line maxed)

Offensive Stance

Wrath Stance 73 (master), has a whole lot of effects now:

• Prevents caster from applying taunt effects (you can cast em, they just don't land the taunt part)
• 117 Wis
• 187 Int
• 257 Str
• Increases Crushing, Piercing, Slashing and Disruption by 48
• On a successful melee attack get a 4/min Glorious Strike proc (860-1433) - double against undead and 2sec non-epic stun
• Increases Max Health of caster by 662
• Decreases Defense of caster by 20
• Decreases hate gain by 10%
• Increases all physical damage done to cater by 5%
• 4.5sec recast shared with defensive stance

Defensive Stance

Bayle's Stance 72 (master), has a whole lot of effects:

• 92 Int
• 69 Str
• 183 Wis
• Decreased Crushing, Piercing, Slashing by 20
• On a successful melee attack get a 3/min Glorious Strike proc (3.2-4k threat) and non-epic stun
• Increases Max Health of caster by 779
• Increases Defenss and Parry of caster by 37  (note this is with the full 5 points in TSO fighter tree "Consumate Defender"
• Increases hate gain by 12.8%
• Decreases Melee Damage Multiplier of caster by 0.5 (21% reduction in autoattack damage according to weaponstats)
• Increases effectiveness of worn armour vs all physical damage by 15%
• Increases base amount of taunts by 8%
• Increases mitigation vs magic and divine damage by 2419
• Increases Aggression by 27
• 4.5sec recast shared with offensive stance

Kick

Penitent Kick 74 (adeptIII), now also increases threat by 5.2-6.4k threat 382-588damage (common line to other fighters)

Shield Bash

Heroic Dash 79 (adeptIII), increases threat by 4.4k theat with 282-421 damage

Taunt

Clarion 79 (master2), increases threat by 9.8-12k threat, 0.19 sec cast, no recovery. 4.5sec recast, 30 power.  Can be cast through  stifle or stun.

Encounter Taunt

Excoriation 76 (adeptIII, increases threat by 2.9-3.6k threat, 0.38sec cast, recast 9.1sec

AoE damage/heal

Circular Smith 75 (adeptIII), increases threat by 3.4-4.2k in addition to the 601-994 damage and 298 heal.

Idolic Axe (Str crusader AA)

Increases base amount of taunts, and taunt crit chance:

• 1 pts - 1.2% / 2.2%
• 2 pts - 2.4% / 4.4%
• 3 pts - 3.6% / 6.6% (above comparisons were originally made with 3pts in it - my live spec)
• 4 pts - 4.8% / 8.8%
• 5 pts - 6% / 11%
• 6 pts - 7.2% / 13.2%
• 7 pts - 8.4% / 15.4%
• 8 pts - 9.6% / 17.6%

Rescue

3 hate positions and 13.6k threat. Recast 5 mins (3min 8sec with Avenging Invigorlation and TSO AA maxed)

Divine Favor

Death save now heals for a % instead of fixed amount (17.5 at adept3), loses its stifle and daze and gives a 2 hit stoneskin.

3 hate positions and 13.6k threat. Recast 5 mins (3min 8sec with Avenging Invigorlation and TSO AA maxed)

[Kordran]

You come to a conclusion, but did you actually play your Paladin? What I'm really interested in is "real world" experiences from Paladins, both in instance runs and raids. It sounds to me like you've made your conclusion and recommendation (to betray to a Shadow Knight) based just on the numbers, and not on any playtesting.

[Antryg Mistrose]

I spent 2 hrs going through every spell and posted actual numbers from screenshots.  Groups on testcopy in my timezone (there were 17 people total on) aren't going to happen.

Thank you for your thoughtfull fact filled response.

[QuaiCon]

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

Defensive Stance

Bayle's Stance 72 (master), has a whole lot of effects:

• Changes taunt abilities into hate reduction abilities (ie tooltips on taunt stuff say Decreases rather then Increases threat)
• 92 Int
• 69 Str
• 183 Wis
• Decreased Crushing, Piercing, Slashing by20
• On a successful melee attack get the Glorious Strike proc (824-1373) - double against undead and non-epic stun
• Increases Max Health of caster by 779
• Increases Defense of caster by 37
• Increases hate gain by 12.8%
• Decreases Melee Damage Multiplier of caster by 0.5 (21% reduction in autoattack damage according to weaponstats)
• Increases effectiveness of worn armour vs all physical damage by 15%
• Increases base amount of taunts by 8%
• Increases mitigation vs magic and divine damage by 2419
• Increases Aggression by 27

there is some errors in this one. def stance doesn't have the changes from taunts to detaunts. also glorious strike on def stance doesn't proc damage it just procs a taunt (and no dounle against undead). rest seems to be ok

but for me clarion had a lot lower values when i wrote it down (not sure who made the mistake and cannot recheck atm).

doubt that aggro will be a lot different for other tanks, we got our weak taunts buffed by quite a lot up to the vaules of other tanks, but lost amends. the proc chance of the taunt on def stance seemed a bit low to me when i checked my pally on test compared to the other tanks passive aggro gain abilities (guardian has 50% chance to proc it when gettign hit, bers 20%, not sure how high % is for sk), also we are the only ones that have to hit for it to proc and not getting hit (not sure whats better).

[Antryg Mistrose]

Sorry missed that - I cut and pasted offensive & defensive (to keep them in the same order) then went back and modified - fixed in orignal post now.

The Clarion figures are about right  - now with 8 pts in Idolic Axe its showing 7.1 to 8.7k.

I'm not as optimistic.  That we may have similar taunts to other tanks is a major problem.  We have less survivability, less "Oops" abilities, and no compelling raid or group buffs.  That we had the best aggro abilities when used with the right amends target used to balance these - now we are just a 2nd rate guardian with a few heals.

[QuaiCon]

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

I'm not as optimistic.  That we may have similar taunts to other tanks is a major problem.  We have less survivability, less "Oops" abilities, and no compelling raid or group buffs.  That we had the best aggro abilities when used with the right amends target used to balance these - now we are just a 2nd rate guardian with a few heals.

if you read my other posts then i'm far from optimistic too, just saying atm that aggro probably is not the real problem its more that the whole class won't work anymore.

the big problem pally healing has is that the heals don't scale with the target, if a class gets a shorttime mit buff then that absorbs  a little damage on solo targets, more damage on heroic targets and a lot more on raidtargets. same is true with higher avoidance on solo targets a missed hit is a small portion of damage missed while on raidmobs a missed hit is a huge damage missed. our heals are same no matter if we fight solo mobs or raidmobs, this makes it impossible to tune them against the shorttime buffs to mitigation that other classes get and to the higher avoidance skills they have on their stances.

also while the heal amounts were ok on lower levels closer to game launch (now with rok equip on low levels they are probably out of scale too)  they are very small now at high levels. i can remember times when a ward was up for more than one hit on heroic conent,  now it usually just absorbs a part of a hit even on heroic content, lay on hands line was a near to full heal some time in past now if you see it compared to a buffed raitank then its also out of proportion.

finally our heals can get interrupted and we have to spend some time casing them, with the low heal amounts and i think lower aggro generation of a heal compared to damage we will even loose out on aggro while healing.

and the oher bit messed up point i see is that we are a tank class with a whole lot of aoe spells/ca's (not sure if we got more than a sk, but more than both warriro classes for sure) but still get pushed in single target tank role. we can do ok damage on multi mob fights but probably won't be able to  keep aggro on them (yay).

[Freliant]

Way too many pallies Thinking the world is ending... First of... that "400" Threat per second mentioned above, is the same as putting amends on a 1k parsing player... that is true... however, that does not take into account the hate boosts and base hate increases along with the crits, which will also increase this.

What has not been mentioned, is that they now have 5+ taunt abilities, all with around 8 second recast, and that do 4k+ taunt minimum. Since they will all reset by the time you cycle all your taunts, your minimum hate gain with no crits, or hate increases will be very close to 5k hate per second.

This by no means is something to laugh at. In addition to this, the "Restitution" skill (previously amends) increases the hate position for those times where things go wrong.. This is your "rescue" equivalent. As well as the other Shadown AA taunt that increases your hate by a few positions, and taunts.

Something else to look at, is the fact that almost all high dps classes have huge agro decreases and detaunts. With AAs, the wizard, can have a 28% decrease in hate, and a 3-4k detaunt that procs off attacks 6+ times per minute, and their existing detaunts have been conciderably boosted as well.

BTW, the taunt that was mentioned has a duration because it has a built in stun.

Anyways, Try out the class in some groups, and you will find that agro control is very strong. Its just not as easy as placing amends on a high dps class and never worrying about agro again... which is what you had before.

[Niou]

For anybody that isn't intelligent enough to think and keeps grinning like a fool while being screwed, saying we have tons of hate now, you really need to realize that its not about the Amount of hate we are getting, its the Type of hate.

Can we hold single target hate? Yes.

In little group instances can we hold group hate? Yes.

In Raids do we have a position at all? No.

There is more to the game than little legendary equipped Paladin's running around doing instances. The entire end game is based around raiding and due to this change, Paladin's no longer have any place in that. We have been relegated to Single Target Tanks but have been given 0 ability's with which to do so.

Do you actually think a raid is going to want a Paladin MT over a Guard MT just out of the goodness of their heart? No, they are not. They are going to want the best MT in the game, Guardians, who are the best because of their stoneskin ability's.

The OP is right. These changes were done with no forethought at all when it comes to the raiding aspect. It is merely a large nerf and they're throwing garbage like "we gave you a really cool taunt!" at the inexperienced Paladins in order to placate them.

[Boli32]

I'll hold my OT/MT position in my guild for some while and I'll adapt to deal with it... but if we decide to do OK again I'm just going to have to turn around to the raid leader and say: "listen... get the chanter to tank this one as I've been shafted in AoE hate so hard I can taste the nerf stick coming out the other end.".

The only reason the paladins will even see a SNIFF of a MT/OTing role in raids is either if all the rest fo the tanks miraculacy fall ill or SoE decide to back up their promise and actually back up the "second most defensive tank" with some actual spells in order to counteract this.

This is currently what we bring to a raid with the changes:

* Raid buff +Wis +5% base Heals (I think our MT defiler procs up well above 50% base heals these days which I believe is the cap... so erm.. yeah want 200 more resists from the wisdom? )

* Raid buff +820 mit to all none fighters (ever hear of the mitigation curve? )

* Low dps (I think at an estimate we are equal with guards)

* Debuffs (one, divine - only clerics, paladins and one fury DoT use divine... so we get to increase priest dps.. important stuff!... erm not really)

* Group Buffs (erm.... 250-350 2.7 times a min... barely registers 1% on my ZW even in undead zones.

* Erm.... I'm thinking

* Come back later

* Does Guild mascot count?

* We heal somewhat but quite frankly if you need a paladin to heal you have more serious problems than ours - if you need heals bring an inquisitor they can toggle fanatasmi, debuff dps, increase casting speed and in general offer more to a raid PLUS heal better.. and they don't need to be buff stacked to dps

* Nope sorry that's it... that is ALL we bring to a raid where we do not tank.

In short unless we are actively tanking a paladin brings NOTHING to a raid... so shall we have them MT? nah the guards better... what about OT... well zerker and SK give much better buffs and debuffs when not tanking and can do more dps whilst tanking... oh and have more survivability... pala what?

The only way we can HOPE to survive this change and not be sidelined as a "novalty or sympathy act" is by SoE fufiilling on their promise to the paladin community to make them the second most defensive tank in truth rather than saying they are and hopeing no-one will notice... and this does NOT involve giveing SKs parry on their defensive stance and not giving it to paladins;mini stoneskins, short term damage immunity, chance to proc our ward whilst in defensive stance; buff which pulses hate at the target when we cast a beneficial spell (heal); anything.

I think I'm lucky in that as it stands I think I can remain OT/MT in my guild, but I feel for other paladins starting out.

N00b Pally: So what have I got to look forward to when I finally reach 80.. I can't wait this class has so much potential!"

Experianced Pally: "Re-Rolling"

[Valphine]

IS everthing in the def stance a proc or just the taunt?

[Kordran]

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

I spent 2 hrs going through every spell and posted actual numbers from screenshots. Groups on testcopy in my timezone (there were 17 people total on) aren't going to happen.

Thank you for your thoughtfull fact filled response.

I think everyone appreciates the fact that you compiled this information, but from what I can tell in this thread, no one has actually played their Paladin in a group with these changes yet, and talked about the practical, real-world experience they had. That's what I'm interested in. Paladins aren't going to be tanking in a vacuum, and there were some pretty broad, sweeping changes made to a lot of classes. What I think is most important is how everything interacts together, not just the changes to the Paladin in isolation.

And frankly, if we want the Aeralik to pay attention to us at all, that is the kind information that we need to give him. In fact, he's explicitly said as much. They're looking for feedback from Paladins who have actually played with the new changes on the test server.

[Kordran]

Boli32 wrote:

I'll hold my OT/MT position in my guild for some while and I'll adapt to deal with it... but if we decide to do OK again I'm just going to have to turn around to the raid leader and say: "listen... get the chanter to tank this one as I've been shafted in AoE hate so hard I can taste the nerf stick coming out the other end.".

It's funny, because when I was reading the patch notes, I was thinking about that fight. It'll be interesting, to say the least.

[Niou]

Kordran wrote:

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

I spent 2 hrs going through every spell and posted actual numbers from screenshots. Groups on testcopy in my timezone (there were 17 people total on) aren't going to happen.

Thank you for your thoughtfull fact filled response.

I think everyone appreciates the fact that you compiled this information, but from what I can tell in this thread, no one has actually played their Paladin in a group with these changes yet, and talked about the practical, real-world experience they had. That's what I'm interested in. Paladins aren't going to be tanking in a vacuum, and there were some pretty broad, sweeping changes made to a lot of classes. What I think is most important is how everything interacts together, not just the changes to the Paladin in isolation.

And frankly, if we want the Aeralik to pay attention to us at all, that is the kind information that we need to give him. In fact, he's explicitly said as much. They're looking for feedback from Paladins who have actually played with the new changes on the test server.

The Paladin's here that actually know what they're talking about don't need to test the changes to understand what has been done. Why? Simple, You don't need to be punched in the face to know it hurts.

Aeralik has already stated the reason Amends was taken away. It was done so that SK's and Zerkers could become the new AoE tanks, while Paladin's followed after Guardian's as Single Target Tanks.

Can we hold Agro in little stupid instances? YES, big freaking whoop, so can monks and bruisers.

What has been done here is detrimental to Raiding Paladins. Thats why people are upset. It's easy to keep hate, with or without amends, that part doesn't matter. It's the fact that Paladins are now Single Target Tanks in Raid Encounters without the defensive capability's of Guardians that matters.

Every Raiding paladin looked at that update and knew they were screwed. Unless Aeralik is a [Removed for Content], he knew it too. So he spewed some crap out about a "really incredible taunt" called amends and told everybody to run and test it before complaining. Test what? the fact that we can tank instances? Amazing.

If they want us to be single target tanks, they need to give us the tools to do so. Until then, we're just broken Guardian's without stoneskin effects and useless to a raid.

[Mihos]

I feel for you guys.

I really liked having Paladins around in raids.  Ours left and we won't be looking for another.

I still don't understand where their vision for all this is going.....

[Full_Metal_Mage]

Araris@Venekor wrote:

Kordran wrote:

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

I spent 2 hrs going through every spell and posted actual numbers from screenshots. Groups on testcopy in my timezone (there were 17 people total on) aren't going to happen.

Thank you for your thoughtfull fact filled response.

I think everyone appreciates the fact that you compiled this information, but from what I can tell in this thread, no one has actually played their Paladin in a group with these changes yet, and talked about the practical, real-world experience they had. That's what I'm interested in. Paladins aren't going to be tanking in a vacuum, and there were some pretty broad, sweeping changes made to a lot of classes. What I think is most important is how everything interacts together, not just the changes to the Paladin in isolation.

And frankly, if we want the Aeralik to pay attention to us at all, that is the kind information that we need to give him. In fact, he's explicitly said as much. They're looking for feedback from Paladins who have actually played with the new changes on the test server.

The Paladin's here that actually know what they're talking about don't need to test the changes to understand what has been done. Why? Simple, You don't need to be punched in the face to know it hurts.

Aeralik has already stated the reason Amends was taken away. It was done so that SK's and Zerkers could become the new AoE tanks, while Paladin's followed after Guardian's as Single Target Tanks.

Can we hold Agro in little stupid instances? YES, big freaking whoop, so can monks and bruisers.

What has been done here is detrimental to Raiding Paladins. Thats why people are upset. It's easy to keep hate, with or without amends, that part doesn't matter. It's the fact that Paladins are now Single Target Tanks in Raid Encounters without the defensive capability's of Guardians that matters.

Every Raiding paladin looked at that update and knew they were screwed. Unless Aeralik is a [Removed for Content], he knew it too. So he spewed some crap out about a "really incredible taunt" called amends and told everybody to run and test it before complaining. Test what? the fact that we can tank instances? Amazing.

If they want us to be single target tanks, they need to give us the tools to do so. Until then, we're just broken Guardian's without stoneskin effects and useless to a raid.

I don't thing there is any longer room to debate that.

[Zapat]

Araris@Venekor wrote:

Kordran wrote:

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

I spent 2 hrs going through every spell and posted actual numbers from screenshots. Groups on testcopy in my timezone (there were 17 people total on) aren't going to happen.

Thank you for your thoughtfull fact filled response.

I think everyone appreciates the fact that you compiled this information, but from what I can tell in this thread, no one has actually played their Paladin in a group with these changes yet, and talked about the practical, real-world experience they had. That's what I'm interested in. Paladins aren't going to be tanking in a vacuum, and there were some pretty broad, sweeping changes made to a lot of classes. What I think is most important is how everything interacts together, not just the changes to the Paladin in isolation.

And frankly, if we want the Aeralik to pay attention to us at all, that is the kind information that we need to give him. In fact, he's explicitly said as much. They're looking for feedback from Paladins who have actually played with the new changes on the test server.

The Paladin's here that actually know what they're talking about don't need to test the changes to understand what has been done. Why? Simple, You don't need to be punched in the face to know it hurts.

Aeralik has already stated the reason Amends was taken away. It was done so that SK's and Zerkers could become the new AoE tanks, while Paladin's followed after Guardian's as Single Target Tanks.

Can we hold Agro in little stupid instances? YES, big freaking whoop, so can monks and bruisers.

What has been done here is detrimental to Raiding Paladins. Thats why people are upset. It's easy to keep hate, with or without amends, that part doesn't matter. It's the fact that Paladins are now Single Target Tanks in Raid Encounters without the defensive capability's of Guardians that matters.

Every Raiding paladin looked at that update and knew they were screwed. Unless Aeralik is a [Removed for Content], he knew it too. So he spewed some crap out about a "really incredible taunt" called amends and told everybody to run and test it before complaining. Test what? the fact that we can tank instances? Amazing.

If they want us to be single target tanks, they need to give us the tools to do so. Until then, we're just broken Guardian's without stoneskin effects and useless to a raid.

EXACTLY... as soon as i read up on the freakin' changes i already knew this was going to hurt us, i've played a Pally since day one, so i am experienced and know what im talking about.

and it is almost impossible for us to be single target tanks since we dont truly excel in anything besides aggro control meaning have no spike damage survivability, and on top of that we have quite a few AE's.  so how does it make sense exactly to completely revamp and turn us into single-target tanks?

[RafaelSmith]

These changes coupled with the heavy bias toward AE in TSO have pretty much nullified the so called single target specialist.

We're both(Pally/Guard) are going to be sitting around watching the SK MT everything while matching the scouts and mages on the DPS chart =P

[denmom]

Okay, just back from Test Copy.

First off, tested fighting the charging grindhoofs around the Skleross quest tent in Jarsath Wastes near the Howling Stones post.  That's where Pheep was when I logged in.  All of these tests were of what would be normal fighting for Pheep when solo and duo'd.

Offensive stance, 15-17 secs to kill.

Defensive stance, 25-27 secs.

Not good.

I went to where the yha-lei are, and had the same results in offensive stance, worse results in defensive stance.  These were against white even and white ^.  My guildee's Wiz joined me, finally being on Test Copy as well.

EDIT: Doh, forgot, the Wiz is raid spec'd.  My Paladin isn't.

We tested first with Pheep in offensive stance.

I pulled as usual, used my usual cycle, and promptly lost all aggro to the Wiz's first shot.

After we stopped laughing at how close the death was for the Wiz, we tried it with defensive mode.

Didn't lose aggro at all.  Even when I did a deliberate social pull, firing an arrow at a patroller who brought over his nearby friend.  Used the blue ae with the new threat component once, and maintained aggro on the 2nd mob, even tho the Wiz unloaded on it while I worked on the first.

We did a deliberate testing of regaining hate/threat by doing what would be a usual stripping of the mob off Pheep by the Wiz: a body pull with the Wiz fast on the casting.  The mob ran by Pheep right to the Wiz, but one taunt of the new Amends yanked it right off, but before I could solidify it the mob turned around again, but the dotting taunt yanked it back and when I followed with the threat laden Kick and shield bash, it stuck to me solid.

Now all that happened in seconds.

In our testing, the Wiz couldn't strip aggro off me.  I didn't have to use the Amends line at all save for when we went for a deliberate try of my losing aggro.  And even then it was hard to lose it.

What I really do not like is the extreme loss of dps.

Offensive: average of 1500-1600

Defensive: average of 500-800

No stance: average of 950

I duo with a Warden.  With the above numbers, this means the Warden will have to do more attacks to make up for the lack of dps in defensive stance, or we wait until we can trio with our guildees and friends or we PUG.

When the Wiz ran ACT to check my dps, she didn't attack at all while I was in offensive mode so didn't get any aggro at all.  This tells me that the Warden would have to do the same thing in our duos if I go offensive but I'm willing to bet the first heal and there goes the mob to eat the healer.

Overall, defensive mode is great, a wonderful thing when in a group.  It's offensive mode that's the real problem, imho.

Suggestion: please remove the dethreats when in offensive mode.  This is a detriment for us Paladins who run in duos and are the main damage dealers.  It can be a possible group enforcing element, and a bad one for those of us who duo out of preference or time constraints due to RL (work, family, school etc.).

[denmom]

Zapatta wrote:

Araris@Venekor wrote:

Kordran wrote:

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

I spent 2 hrs going through every spell and posted actual numbers from screenshots. Groups on testcopy in my timezone (there were 17 people total on) aren't going to happen.

Thank you for your thoughtfull fact filled response.

I think everyone appreciates the fact that you compiled this information, but from what I can tell in this thread, no one has actually played their Paladin in a group with these changes yet, and talked about the practical, real-world experience they had. That's what I'm interested in. Paladins aren't going to be tanking in a vacuum, and there were some pretty broad, sweeping changes made to a lot of classes. What I think is most important is how everything interacts together, not just the changes to the Paladin in isolation.

And frankly, if we want the Aeralik to pay attention to us at all, that is the kind information that we need to give him. In fact, he's explicitly said as much. They're looking for feedback from Paladins who have actually played with the new changes on the test server.

The Paladin's here that actually know what they're talking about don't need to test the changes to understand what has been done. Why? Simple, You don't need to be punched in the face to know it hurts.

Aeralik has already stated the reason Amends was taken away. It was done so that SK's and Zerkers could become the new AoE tanks, while Paladin's followed after Guardian's as Single Target Tanks.

Can we hold Agro in little stupid instances? YES, big freaking whoop, so can monks and bruisers.

What has been done here is detrimental to Raiding Paladins. Thats why people are upset. It's easy to keep hate, with or without amends, that part doesn't matter. It's the fact that Paladins are now Single Target Tanks in Raid Encounters without the defensive capability's of Guardians that matters.

Every Raiding paladin looked at that update and knew they were screwed. Unless Aeralik is a [Removed for Content], he knew it too. So he spewed some crap out about a "really incredible taunt" called amends and told everybody to run and test it before complaining. Test what? the fact that we can tank instances? Amazing.

If they want us to be single target tanks, they need to give us the tools to do so. Until then, we're just broken Guardian's without stoneskin effects and useless to a raid.

EXACTLY... as soon as i read up on the freakin' changes i already knew this was going to hurt us, i've played a Pally since day one, so i am experienced and know what im talking about.

and it is almost impossible for us to be single target tanks since we dont truly excel in anything besides aggro control meaning have no spike damage survivability, and on top of that we have quite a few AE's.  so how does it make sense exactly to completely revamp and turn us into single-target tanks?

Uhm, what do you mean by that?  Single unlinked or linked?  Sorry for the noobness on that question.  >_<

When I tested Pheep a few minutes ago, I had several single unlinked mobs while my guildee's Wizard was cutting loose while I was in defensive mode.

As long as I cycled thru the blue aoe with the new threat addition, I could keep the mobs on Pheep, even when the Wiz moved from target to target.

I can still do the usual group holding by use of aoes as I do on live, even better now with that open blue aoe.

I read how folks say that Paladins are single target...but, uh, I can hold groups just fine...O_o

I have the feeling I'm missing something since I don't raid and tend to have an odd style of play.

[Feydakeen]

Mihos wrote:

I feel for you guys.

I really liked having Paladins around in raids.  Ours left and we won't be looking for another.

I still don't understand where their vision for all this is going.....

CHEER !!!

I have whined and whines and whined about these changes as it will make my place in raid obsolete... But alas alot of people can only say: Get over it crybaby, whiner etc... That really hurts, especially since I have been vocal for years about fixing our brothers Zerkers and SK's.

It's really nice to see other people agree these changes are just FUBARRED... Thanks.

[Kordran]

Pheep@Unrest wrote:

Suggestion: please remove the dethreats when in offensive mode. This is a detriment for us Paladins who run in duos and are the main damage dealers. It can be a possible group enforcing element, and a bad one for those of us who duo out of preference or time constraints due to RL (work, family, school etc.).

That's not going to happen because The Vision(tm) is to force fighters to pick a stance. But you're right, it does hurt some duo combinations where the Paladin is meant to be both DPS and tank. On the other hand, some combinations would probably be fine (example: the Paladin in defensive, and a Ranger with typical compliment of stun gear on, etc.). Some people have talked about not using stances at all, but as you've pointed out, you take a significant DPS hit there as well, so it's not a terribly good option either.

I think five things would help out with this change to Paladins:

1. Make the new Amends taunt castable through stuns/stifles/mez.

2. Add Parry to our defensive stance. It was added to Shadow Knights, there's absolutely no justification I can think of to not give it to Paladins as well.

3. Change the chance to proc threat in defensive to a reactive that triggers every time the Paladin is hit. To balance it out with the "super taunt" it doesn't need to be as large as other fighters, but it should be there.

4. Add a stoneskin component to our ward, either on cast or on termination.

5. Have the defensive stance significantly increase our focus, making it nearly impossible for heals/wards to be interrupted in combat, no matter how many mobs are hitting us; possibly add a multiplier to our heals to increase the threat ratio.

Edit: Added a 5th there.

[denmom]

Kordran wrote:

Pheep@Unrest wrote:

Suggestion: please remove the dethreats when in offensive mode. This is a detriment for us Paladins who run in duos and are the main damage dealers. It can be a possible group enforcing element, and a bad one for those of us who duo out of preference or time constraints due to RL (work, family, school etc.).

That's not going to happen because The Vision(tm) is to force fighters to pick a stance. But you're right, it does hurt some duo combinations where the Paladin is meant to be both DPS and tank. On the other hand, some combinations would probably be fine (example: the Paladin in defensive, and a Ranger with typical compliment of stun gear on, etc.). Some people have talked about not using stances at all, but as you've pointed out, you take a significant DPS hit there as well, so it's not a terribly good option either.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Aeralik did say they wanted feedback.  Kirstie did say feedback was read.  Perhaps I'm thot of as a fool to think that just perhaps what I've said will be heard and taken into account.

I'll admit that I am the argumentative type.  I have thrown verbal bricks at devs in the past betas and testings out of frustration.  I'm really trying to not give into that right now.  >_<

All I can do, all we can do is give them what they ask for in a polite manner, debate the same way their changes, and just perhaps changes will be made which will be better than what will be implemented.

[Tharinor Degaulle]

Has anyone tested these changes in zones such as Ykeshan Outer Stronghold where long and often uncurable stun/stifle are the name of the game throughout the zone?  I don't see how we're supposed to hold aggro in a zone like this especially with the changes in place.  Seems to me that amends was the only reason we could hold aggro before, and that we haven't been given the required ability for passive hate gain and/or the ability to taunt while stun/stifled that is needed to generate enough hate to hold aggro through these debuffs.

[Wulfgr]

Maybe time to betray to Shadow Knight ( A frog SK sounds pretty cool anyways.

[Kordran]

I really would prefer to not betray, but if things stay as they are, I expect there will be a sit-down with my guild leadership and that's exactly what they're going to what me to do.

God, all those masters, the gear ...

[denmom]

Kordran wrote:

I really would prefer to not betray, but if things stay as they are, I expect there will be a sit-down with my guild leadership and that's exactly what they're going to what me to do.

God, all those masters, the gear ...

I'm right there with you.

I don't want to retire my Paladin again.  I did once after LU13, and brought her back out a bit after the new progression and seeing what my husband's Paladin was doing in the higher levels...made me want to play Pheep again.

I really am trying to not be doom and gloom...but I cant' help to see GU51 as EQ2's NGE.  >_<

[Plaidler]

played around on test copy last night for a few hours solo.....i hated iti will try hard to find a group on test server but after playing the same toon for 4 years i know already whats going to happen and what isnt going to work.-no more plaidler for the OK fight in korsha-no more plaidler for running an instance with one healer cause he heals while tanking-no more 10 mob encounters where 4 years experience allows me to survive these encounters where others cant-no more duo/trio zones where i can throw out a tonn of healing and utility whilst tanking-no more raiding, my raid leader would be a fool to bring me over our sk as OT or me over our guardian as mt, i cant offer a fraction of what these guys can do a lot better now-half my spells/CA's are dedicated to aoe encounters, all useless, they produce no agro so whilst casting them with the hit to dps in def stance, im losing agro immediately and the group around me dies-no more drushk adds, i now have NO passive hate so when im disarmed, force targeted im producing zero agro, thus am useless.- no more fun mentoring where i can be in off stance and help lower toons get through content quickly, in off stance everything i do deagro's nowI got made to be a single target tank, i have no tower of stone, no temp mit buffs, not temp def buffs, nothing, all i ever had was my ability to self heal and make up the difference which is what the core of my class was designed for.I wont last 5 sec in an AOE fight, i have no tools to deal with multiple mobs effectively through stuns/stifles/ etc, which TSO is full of.All in all, every aspect of the game has changed, raids, instances, mentoring,duoing/trioing.late nights with my bruiser friend in KP farming the castle me healing/tanking him running around dps'ing, no moreduoing UNrest with my illy friend and killing Bugaboo with just the 2 of us? never againSeeing my mystic friend go down in an instance but hitting stoneskin/consecrate/ holy ground and keeping the group alive till mobs are dead and or rezzing healer, never againsending a tell to our assasin after tanking phar and holding agro with just amends on him and no dirge sucsessfully and telling him "well done", no morewith no passive hate im dead in the water and all the specialist fights designed for me in mind and the tools i had to handle them, are now overdont tell me all fighters are the same now, who the hell wants them to be?we all had something unique to offer a raid or encounter, now that is no morewe all had core abilities, i have none now.all gone my friendsall gonePlaidler

[Marcusaval]

Ok I will admit I have not played my Paladin on test and will see what happens when GU51 goes live. I have read most of the comments both on this forum and EQII flames; I think I can truthfully say you will struggle to find any positive ones.

I have been my guilds OT for quite some time and its clear  these changes mean I will in all no longer have that role as the reason we had it was our ability to handle multiple mobs and now an SK or Zerker will do that much better than we can and we are not as good as a Guardian as a MT.

I feel intense loyality to the Paladin class and have no desire to betray to SK which leaves me little option. I spent a lot of KOS and the start of EOF in the wilderness unable to get a slot in a decent raid  nobody wanted a Paladin back then ( it was Guardians and Berzerkers) and I really think quiting the game is a better option than; rolling another toon(I would have done it by now if I was going to)/just doing instances/pick up raids.

 I cant understand the logic behind the changes there is nothing good for a Paladin in these changes at all. The developers have not explained there logic or what they are trying to achieve. I cant understand why the developers have decided we no longer have a role. Its very unfair  and having spent years developing this Character I feel very angry and bitter.

[Anurra]

Our guild runs with a guardian MT and a paladin OT (not me, I raid with a brigand). After these changes were posted, we started to do a massive final run of all lower tier raids in RoK in order to get everyone flagged for VP, mythical updates, and Fate of Norrath Quest Updates.

Why?

Because our paladin (who is also on the raid team), KNOWS his class and knows what these changes will do. I am not in the leadership so I cannot speak on what they will do. Needless to say, these changes are causing stress in other classes from the guild because not everyone can make this final hurra of flagging. And in the future, with our setup, there will be an issue in tanking types of encounters (OK).

Maybe it'll all end up alright. I am waiting for my paladin to get copied over to test. From playing this class (Paladin) for years, I can see some glaring issues with the changes. If the developers really listen to the paladin community and give us the tools we need to do the job right, then, it wont be AS bad. But changing the class focus from AE OT to ST MT after 4-5 years is going to get people to outlash no matter what you do. I also find it slightly funny how paladins will be the "second best" single target tanks, by the end of these changes. They should be even (same for AE tanks) but do their jobs in different ways.

[Irgun]

Anurra@Permafrost wrote:

I also find it slightly funny how paladins will be the "second best" single target tanks, by the end of these changes. They should be even (same for AE tanks) but do their jobs in different ways.

/agree

This also counts for different aggro mechanism. Amends is necessary to fill the gap while the paladin is healing - this great relation between these two abilities now has been crippled in a horrible way.

As always: "You dont win silver, you lose gold!"