Rollback done. SK Nerf still going forward.

Phank · 03-20-2009, 03:44 PM

1. Crusaders - Knight's Stance still sitting at 15.0 nerfed from 25.0 Weapon Damage Bonus.

2. Crusaders - Defensive Stance loses Parry. Defense and Agression only.

3. Shadowknight's Furor still gives 10% improved threat now in exchange for 10% spell damage. -- NO THANKS! Have you seen the excess amount of increased Hate/Threat we have at our discretion?

Idolic Axe : Increases Hate Gain by up to 10%

Gallantry: Increases base and crit threat of taunts by up to 10%

Valor in Battle: Improves triggered threat by up to 25%

Malevolent Tormenting: Increases base amt of taunts by up to 15%

Let's not forget Mythical proc also adds Hate Gain from Lifetaps while Seething Hatred is on.

On the bright side, Enhance Insinuate has been reverted and fixed. We now have lower resistability again.

Freliant · 03-20-2009, 04:04 PM

There are many other posts that already mention this, but SK damage was pushed a bit too high, and they had all the intentions of lowering it a bit and giving you more hate instead, reguardless of the status of the fighter changes. It was a change that happened independant of the fighter update 2.0

Also, on a side note, I am happy with all the people that are now chiming in saying they want stuff from the fighter update back. Tough noogies! I felt like a solo vanguard to get the update slightly altered but non-the-less pushed to live servers because it was 95% good. And that other 5% that wasn't not "good" was only when see from that 1% raiding population and those that had classes that were at an extream advantage with the current changes on live.

Now we have pallies crying cause they want the boost in defense they got from the fighter update, but don't want to give up amends; SKs that want to keep their additional agro, but don't want to exchange it for dps, and overall, classes that wanted the changes, like the brawler community, and the guardians, are left high and dry for another long while.

Heck, our guild MT just hung up his sword, and is letter the Paladin/SK in the guild tank instead. They have more agro than he does in every situation. He doesn't loose agro vs the dps classes... he looses them to other fighters... which since the guardians' ONLY role is to keep agro and have high defense, he can't do his role. Meh, let me keep quiet and not stir this pot any more.

LygerT · 03-20-2009, 04:10 PM

Freliant wrote:

There are many other posts that already mention this, but SK damage was pushed a bit too high, and they had all the intentions of lowering it a bit and giving you more hate instead, reguardless of the status of the fighter changes. It was a change that happened independant of the fighter update 2.0
Also, on a side note, I am happy with all the people that are now chiming in saying they want stuff from the fighter update back. Tough noogies! I felt like a solo vanguard to get the update slightly altered but non-the-less pushed to live servers because it was 95% good. And that other 5% that wasn't not "good" was only when see from that 1% raiding population and those that had classes that were at an extream advantage with the current changes on live.
Now we have pallies crying cause they want the boost in defense they got from the fighter update, but don't want to give up amends; SKs that want to keep their additional agro, but don't want to exchange it for dps, and overall, classes that wanted the changes, like the brawler community, and the guardians, are left high and dry for another long while.
Heck, our guild MT just hung up his sword, and is letter the Paladin/SK in the guild tank instead. They have more agro than he does in every situation. He doesn't loose agro vs the dps classes... he looses them to other fighters... which since the guardians' ONLY role is to keep agro and have high defense, he can't do his role. Meh, let me keep quiet and not stir this pot any more.

QFE

it's really been bothering me how selfish some of the plate wearers have been through this. i understand guards pain when i watch and heal them through groups, i understand the zerkers pain in having had to fight tooth and nail for offtank spot for years and now to have to fight even harder against crusaders. and having healed crusaders of every level and how well they manage themselves with a solo healer in almost any group i really just get a bit angry at all of what i see on this forum from some classes wanting more, modest classes trying to even the playing field being called whiners instead of wanting to be overpowered as well and the even more modest guards who struggle on heroic AE content just silently banging their head against the wall.

yes i think the knight's stance nerf is unwarranted but how do you nerf proc damage without affecting casters who are dilligently trying to keep up with scouts? it's not an easy one to fix.

complaining about too much aggro? cry me a river.

i just want to hold up a mirror and point it towards some people, regardless they will always see the underpowered class that they were not what they currently are.

Elanjar · 03-20-2009, 04:13 PM

Although I think they should keep a few of the SK "nerfs" (they're really just normalizers but whatev) I'd say it was probably just an oversight.

What I'm curious about is if the taunt crit and agression mechanics are being kept...

Landiin · 03-20-2009, 04:20 PM

Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:

What I'm curious about is if the taunt crit and agression mechanics are being kept...

Nope, they are gone for the time being.

Windowlicker · 03-20-2009, 04:22 PM

SK absolutely needed balancing. I'll have to see how our SK's are performing before I can determine if it was too much, or not enough.

I don't want to see them anywhere but on par with the rest of the tanks. That means not-overpowered, not-underpowered.

Aeralik · 03-20-2009, 04:28 PM

It would appear that I missed some things rolling them back. It was a rather complex rollback since I had made hundreds of changes. This is why its in testing though to make sure we got everything rather than just rushing it out SMILEY

Btw the Insinuate resist enhancement was removed because of how aggression worked which made the resitibility enhancement rather meaningless.

Phank · 03-20-2009, 04:57 PM

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

complaining about too much aggro? cry me a river.
i just want to hold up a mirror and point it towards some people, regardless they will always see the underpowered class that they were not what they currently are.

If you bothered to read any of my other posts you will find that I almost always try to point out the fact that we have an abundance of redundant abilities, rather than an assortment of useful and unique (class specific) traits.

My post above points out that the SK has plenty of other options to increase hate gain rather than taking away 10% spell damage on a spell that is entitled "Furor". Furor already has a taunt component, so why add another temp 10% hate gain at the cost of 10% spell damage. That just seems like less fury, rage, madness, etc. that its name implies.

LygerT · 03-20-2009, 05:12 PM

if you don't like redundant or weak abilities, you are talking to the wrong person/class.

Windowlicker · 03-20-2009, 05:25 PM

That just seems like less fury, rage, madness, etc. that its name implies.

Almost like making a class called "Blind-rage-anger-guy" and having it horrible at building hate eh? SMILEY

LygerT · 03-20-2009, 05:30 PM

point is, look to my previous posts about not being the only class in the game. many classes do not follow a title as a means of being or have abilities that always perform or really do anything at all, such as being capped in haste and AE attack yet having an ability that, well, temporarily gives you haste mod and 100% AE auto attack... so, get used to it.

Oglock · 03-20-2009, 06:43 PM

Phank wrote:

1. Crusaders - Knight's Stance still sitting at 15.0 nerfed from 25.0 Weapon Damage Bonus.
2. Crusaders - Defensive Stance loses Parry. Defense and Agression only.
3. Shadowknight's Furor still gives 10% improved threat now in exchange for 10% spell damage. -- NO THANKS! Have you seen the excess amount of increased Hate/Threat we have at our discretion?
Idolic Axe : Increases Hate Gain by up to 10%
Gallantry: Increases base and crit threat of taunts by up to 10%
Valor in Battle: Improves triggered threat by up to 25%
Malevolent Tormenting: Increases base amt of taunts by up to 15%
Let's not forget Mythical proc also adds Hate Gain from Lifetaps while Seething Hatred is on.
On the bright side, Enhance Insinuate has been reverted and fixed. We now have lower resistability again.

How SOE can call this a rollback I don't know, I thought this was supposed to match the live servers, instead your making the same mistake of changing things around without consultation that you said you would seek from the playerbase before working on another attempted fighter changes revamp - isn't this what got you into this mess last time?

LygerT · 03-20-2009, 07:01 PM

Oglock@Splitpaw wrote:

Phank wrote:
1. Crusaders - Knight's Stance still sitting at 15.0 nerfed from 25.0 Weapon Damage Bonus.
2. Crusaders - Defensive Stance loses Parry. Defense and Agression only.
3. Shadowknight's Furor still gives 10% improved threat now in exchange for 10% spell damage. -- NO THANKS! Have you seen the excess amount of increased Hate/Threat we have at our discretion?
Idolic Axe : Increases Hate Gain by up to 10%
Gallantry: Increases base and crit threat of taunts by up to 10%
Valor in Battle: Improves triggered threat by up to 25%
Malevolent Tormenting: Increases base amt of taunts by up to 15%
Let's not forget Mythical proc also adds Hate Gain from Lifetaps while Seething Hatred is on.
On the bright side, Enhance Insinuate has been reverted and fixed. We now have lower resistability again.
How SOE can call this a rollback I don't know, I thought this was supposed to match the live servers, instead your making the same mistake of changing things around without consultation that you said you would seek from the playerbase before working on another attempted fighter changes revamp - isn't this what got you into this mess last time?

having looked around and not seen any SKs proposing real suggestions what do you expect them to do then? maybe if you were willing to lose an inch then maybe the choices wouldn't have to be made for you.

Santi Dominiti · 03-20-2009, 08:07 PM

These better be changed because not only are they affecting SKs but Pallies are getting the short end of the stick also in this.......

And ya wouldnt a rollback have changed everything?? Or is SOE trying to stealth nerf people like they always try to do.

Aeralik · 03-20-2009, 08:19 PM

Oglock@Splitpaw wrote:

How SOE can call this a rollback I don't know, I thought this was supposed to match the live servers, instead your making the same mistake of changing things around without consultation that you said you would seek from the playerbase before working on another attempted fighter changes revamp - isn't this what got you into this mess last time?

Communication goes both ways. I can communicate to you but you also have to read what I wrote above first before overreacting

Again we are reverting the fighter changes. Some things may have been missed which is why it's going to test first to make sure it was all changed properly.

Couching · 03-20-2009, 09:20 PM

Aeralik wrote:

Oglock@Splitpaw wrote:
How SOE can call this a rollback I don't know, I thought this was supposed to match the live servers, instead your making the same mistake of changing things around without consultation that you said you would seek from the playerbase before working on another attempted fighter changes revamp - isn't this what got you into this mess last time?
Communication goes both ways. I can communicate to you but you also have to read what I wrote above first before overreacting
Again we are reverting the fighter changes. Some things may have been missed which is why it's going to test first to make sure it was all changed properly.

If anyone has difficulty in reading and can't understand what his post is. I will do it for you.

"Sk can keep being op in dps, aggro and tanking on both single and aoe targets."

Now, you guys can stop crying and keep enjoying your overpowered class.

Landiin · 03-20-2009, 09:28 PM

Oglock@Splitpaw wrote:

How SOE can call this a rollback I don't know, I thought this was supposed to match the live servers, instead your making the same mistake of changing things around without consultation that you said you would seek from the playerbase before working on another attempted fighter changes revamp - isn't this what got you into this mess last time?

Just goes to show you didn't even read the thread. You just aimlessly post thus being one of the reason SOE has a reason not to even communicate with us because of people like you. Had you even bothered read just a bit you would of seen it was code that was missed in the roll back.

VengeanceX · 03-21-2009, 05:26 AM

Aeralik wrote:

It would appear that I missed some things rolling them back. It was a rather complex rollback since I had made hundreds of changes. This is why its in testing though to make sure we got everything rather than just rushing it out
Btw the Insinuate resist enhancement was removed because of how aggression worked which made the resitibility enhancement rather meaningless.

Well, one thing I would hope has not been rolled back is the bug fix to Grave Sacrament not triggering the hate position increase. I would test it myself but it is hard to verify without the threat logging (which I assume has been rolled back). In fact would it be possible to get the threat logging changes back before you start on the new revision of the fighter changes?

Elephanton · 03-21-2009, 10:45 AM

Aeralik, are you saying that broken SK damage is to remain broken, so that they can contniue enjoyin beating T1 DPS classes on damage, tanking heroics without healer, destroying most classes in PVP under 3 sec and so on?So you are still thinking such damage is fine for a plate-protected class with abilitiy to self-heal like crazy, and even 2 different long-lasting damage immunity spells on top of that?

644446592 · 03-21-2009, 11:10 AM

Aeralik, please remove recast on Bloodletter. I'm tired when all raid waiting me after wipe I can cast BL. 2 min. 30 sec (with all AA) it's too long for ability which can't cast in fight.

All raid (23 people) waiting me or we pull and SK in 1 of 2 pulls without own BL in fight.

so that they can contniue enjoyin beating T1 DPS classes on damage

In stack group and then all buffs on SK. If another class can't parse as SK in same group it's bad player.

tanking heroics without healer

What you talking about?

Elephanton · 03-21-2009, 12:49 PM

64444659213 wrote:

What you talking about?

What exactly surprises you?

644446592 · 03-21-2009, 12:57 PM

ElephantonRU wrote:

What exactly surprises you?

Show me group instance there SK tank without healer? All instance, not 1-3 minutes. SK witn no avatar or top raid inctance loot.

Paladin can do same. Guard in top gear can do same too. Just learn to play your class.

Phank · 03-21-2009, 01:06 PM

Awesome, another SK thread taken down that road of no return. At least the point was made that some changes were missed. Other than that, you can close this thread now. The vermin have taken over. Call the Verminators!!

steelbadger · 03-21-2009, 01:32 PM

Phank wrote:

Awesome, another SK thread taken down that road of no return. At least the point was made that some changes were missed. Other than that, you can close this thread now. The vermin have taken over. Call the Verminators!!

On the bright side for you, however, Aerelik has also stated that the 'nerfs' are going to be removed.

Gisallo · 03-21-2009, 01:42 PM

Just a few comments. This stuff was apparently missed in the roll back so Frankie say Relax. Also a nerf is coming and guess why it is needed. Every good SK I have spoken too (those in raid progression) has said "yep we are a little OP at the moment so we are expecting a nerf" so get ready boys and girls. If you don't think SK's are a little OP right now you have issues.

As for Bloodletter every Fighter death save I know of has a recast timer. Yes the death save is good, but your healers should also have a DI. So organize whose using their death save when. If you need multiple death saves on one fight I suspect you have a bigger problem than Bloodletter taking less than 3 minutes to cast. Just a thought.

Bruener · 03-21-2009, 01:48 PM

Valkenberg@Lucan DLere wrote:

Just a few comments. This stuff was apparently missed in the roll back so Frankie say Relax. Also a nerf is coming and guess why it is needed. Every good SK I have spoken too (those in raid progression) has said "yep we are a little OP at the moment so we are expecting a nerf" so get ready boys and girls. If you don't think SK's are a little OP right now you have issues.
As for Bloodletter every Fighter death save I know of has a recast timer. Yes the death save is good, but your healers should also have a DI. So organize whose using their death save when. If you need multiple death saves on one fight I suspect you have a bigger problem than Bloodletter taking less than 3 minutes to cast. Just a thought.

Yeah, I seriously doubt any SKs that are "good" are telling you they need a nerf, good try. My guess would be the ones saying something are the ones that have SK alts that were mains, that now have their mains as the OP'd enchanters...its amazing how many of those are out there. Honestly, yes we feel a nerf coming only because so many others are complaining out there...its sad really since plate tanks right now feel more balanced than they ever have...and some just seem to want to displace that balance again.

As far as Bloodletter goes. The problem with the recast on bloodletter is that it doesn't start until it goes off and than it can't be cast in combat. Personally, I love the ability still and that is not my beef with it. The major problem I see with Bloodletter is the fact that for those raids that might actually see 2 SKs in a raid...an alliance raid or something or PUR....with 2 SKs in a raid only 1 of them can have Bloodletter up. Bloodletter should be up for whatever SK is in a raid or group.

644446592 · 03-21-2009, 02:04 PM

Valkenberg@Lucan DLere wrote:

Just a few comments. This stuff was apparently missed in the roll back so Frankie say Relax. Also a nerf is coming and guess why it is needed. Every good SK I have spoken too (those in raid progression) has said "yep we are a little OP at the moment so we are expecting a nerf" so get ready boys and girls. If you don't think SK's are a little OP right now you have issues.
As for Bloodletter every Fighter death save I know of has a recast timer. Yes the death save is good, but your healers should also have a DI. So organize whose using their death save when. If you need multiple death saves on one fight I suspect you have a bigger problem than Bloodletter taking less than 3 minutes to cast. Just a thought.

We not OP. Mb I agree with nerf single target dps, but not AoE. Because we AoE tanks. We don't have aoe taunts with position increse as berserks. We are hybrid class and it's is key to our hight dps. Paladins have same dps on single target.

Valkenberg, do you can read? I'm not request allow cast BL in figth. I request remove recast timer. If your raid full of slackers and you don't pull encounter in 1-2 minutes after wipe it's your problem. On wipe all triggers of BL is gone. It's not death save. Why I and my guildmates must waiting 3 minutes? Why ability what we can't cast in fight have recast time? Paladins can cast their death save in fight. Why? Or allow us cast it in fight or remove recast timer.

LygerT · 03-21-2009, 02:24 PM

64444659213 wrote:

Aeralik, please remove recast on Bloodletter. I'm tired when all raid waiting me after wipe I can cast BL. 2 min. 30 sec (with all AA) it's too long for ability which can't cast in fight.
All raid (23 people) waiting me or we pull and SK in 1 of 2 pulls without own BL in fight.

get over yourself.

if the raid had to wait for my deathsave to come up it wouldn't be a 2 minute recast, it is 15 minutes and heals for 35%, not 100%.

and Bruener, plate tanks aren't as balanced as you would like to think.

64444659213 wrote:

Valkenberg, do you can read? I'm not request allow cast BL in figth. I request remove recast timer. If your raid full of slackers and you don't pull encounter in 1-2 minutes after wipe it's your problem. On wipe all triggers of BL is gone. It's not death save. Why I and my guildmates must waiting 3 minutes? Why ability what we can't cast in fight have recast time? Paladins can cast their death save in fight. Why? Or allow us cast it in fight or remove recast timer.

a 100% heal at the sacrifice of a little of your groups health upon your death IS still a deathsave whether you call it one or not.

644446592 · 03-21-2009, 02:48 PM

Lyger, it's balance. You have more taunts with position increse. We have good death save. Your death save don't kill other in raid if they have 5-10% hp. Our is can. You have more mit. increse. We have good death save. Your class depend on 3 stats (str, sta, agi), our from 4 stats and we have good death save. Your mit. increse from set bonus on def. stance. Our on BL. Think about it.

LygerT · 03-21-2009, 03:19 PM

umm ok, anyone in the group who doesn't want to sacrifice health to keep their tank alive and win can turn it off. even with the few snaps we do have the few that don't get resisted you still have superior aggro over, go figure. we have more mit increase? from where? i think you mean base avoidance, which your heals/lifetaps and deathsave cover. my class does depend on 3 stats, most gear has 4-5 stats on it and hybrid gear has all the above as well, so you get 2 heal crit, 2 spell crit and 2 melee crit on one piece that we get 2 melee crit only from. too bad zerks don't tank in defensive, because we are the worst at it of any class.

anything else?

03-20-2009, 04:04 PM	#2
Freliant Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,016	There are many other posts that already mention this, but SK damage was pushed a bit too high, and they had all the intentions of lowering it a bit and giving you more hate instead, reguardless of the status of the fighter changes. It was a change that happened independant of the fighter update 2.0 Also, on a side note, I am happy with all the people that are now chiming in saying they want stuff from the fighter update back. Tough noogies! I felt like a solo vanguard to get the update slightly altered but non-the-less pushed to live servers because it was 95% good. And that other 5% that wasn't not "good" was only when see from that 1% raiding population and those that had classes that were at an extream advantage with the current changes on live. Now we have pallies crying cause they want the boost in defense they got from the fighter update, but don't want to give up amends; SKs that want to keep their additional agro, but don't want to exchange it for dps, and overall, classes that wanted the changes, like the brawler community, and the guardians, are left high and dry for another long while. Heck, our guild MT just hung up his sword, and is letter the Paladin/SK in the guild tank instead. They have more agro than he does in every situation. He doesn't loose agro vs the dps classes... he looses them to other fighters... which since the guardians' ONLY role is to keep agro and have high defense, he can't do his role. Meh, let me keep quiet and not stir this pot any more. __________________ "Change is inevitable" - AM Sephastus 80 Wizard - Retired Onosphire 80 Guardian- Retired

03-20-2009, 04:10 PM	#3
LygerT Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 2,144	Freliant wrote: There are many other posts that already mention this, but SK damage was pushed a bit too high, and they had all the intentions of lowering it a bit and giving you more hate instead, reguardless of the status of the fighter changes. It was a change that happened independant of the fighter update 2.0 Also, on a side note, I am happy with all the people that are now chiming in saying they want stuff from the fighter update back. Tough noogies! I felt like a solo vanguard to get the update slightly altered but non-the-less pushed to live servers because it was 95% good. And that other 5% that wasn't not "good" was only when see from that 1% raiding population and those that had classes that were at an extream advantage with the current changes on live. Now we have pallies crying cause they want the boost in defense they got from the fighter update, but don't want to give up amends; SKs that want to keep their additional agro, but don't want to exchange it for dps, and overall, classes that wanted the changes, like the brawler community, and the guardians, are left high and dry for another long while. Heck, our guild MT just hung up his sword, and is letter the Paladin/SK in the guild tank instead. They have more agro than he does in every situation. He doesn't loose agro vs the dps classes... he looses them to other fighters... which since the guardians' ONLY role is to keep agro and have high defense, he can't do his role. Meh, let me keep quiet and not stir this pot any more. QFE it's really been bothering me how selfish some of the plate wearers have been through this. i understand guards pain when i watch and heal them through groups, i understand the zerkers pain in having had to fight tooth and nail for offtank spot for years and now to have to fight even harder against crusaders. and having healed crusaders of every level and how well they manage themselves with a solo healer in almost any group i really just get a bit angry at all of what i see on this forum from some classes wanting more, modest classes trying to even the playing field being called whiners instead of wanting to be overpowered as well and the even more modest guards who struggle on heroic AE content just silently banging their head against the wall. yes i think the knight's stance nerf is unwarranted but how do you nerf proc damage without affecting casters who are dilligently trying to keep up with scouts? it's not an easy one to fix. complaining about too much aggro? cry me a river. i just want to hold up a mirror and point it towards some people, regardless they will always see the underpowered class that they were not what they currently are.

03-20-2009, 04:20 PM	#5
Landiin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,749	Elanjar@Nagafen wrote: What I'm curious about is if the taunt crit and agression mechanics are being kept... Nope, they are gone for the time being. __________________

03-20-2009, 04:22 PM	#6
Windowlicker Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 1,257	SK absolutely needed balancing. I'll have to see how our SK's are performing before I can determine if it was too much, or not enough. I don't want to see them anywhere but on par with the rest of the tanks. That means not-overpowered, not-underpowered. __________________ -------------------------- Rikko - 80 Berserker Zahne - 80 Warlock

03-20-2009, 04:28 PM	#7
Aeralik Developer Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 672	It would appear that I missed some things rolling them back. It was a rather complex rollback since I had made hundreds of changes. This is why its in testing though to make sure we got everything rather than just rushing it out Btw the Insinuate resist enhancement was removed because of how aggression worked which made the resitibility enhancement rather meaningless.

03-20-2009, 03:44 PM	#1
Phank Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 275	1. Crusaders - Knight's Stance still sitting at 15.0 nerfed from 25.0 Weapon Damage Bonus. 2. Crusaders - Defensive Stance loses Parry. Defense and Agression only. 3. Shadowknight's Furor still gives 10% improved threat now in exchange for 10% spell damage. -- NO THANKS! Have you seen the excess amount of increased Hate/Threat we have at our discretion? Idolic Axe : Increases Hate Gain by up to 10% Gallantry: Increases base and crit threat of taunts by up to 10% Valor in Battle: Improves triggered threat by up to 25% Malevolent Tormenting: Increases base amt of taunts by up to 15% Let's not forget Mythical proc also adds Hate Gain from Lifetaps while Seething Hatred is on. On the bright side, Enhance Insinuate has been reverted and fixed. We now have lower resistability again.

03-20-2009, 04:13 PM	#4
Elanjar Server: Nagafen Guild: Gaeas Vigilance Rank: Avatar Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 600	Although I think they should keep a few of the SK "nerfs" (they're really just normalizers but whatev) I'd say it was probably just an oversight. What I'm curious about is if the taunt crit and agression mechanics are being kept...

03-20-2009, 04:57 PM	#8
Phank Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 275	Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: complaining about too much aggro? cry me a river. i just want to hold up a mirror and point it towards some people, regardless they will always see the underpowered class that they were not what they currently are. If you bothered to read any of my other posts you will find that I almost always try to point out the fact that we have an abundance of redundant abilities, rather than an assortment of useful and unique (class specific) traits. My post above points out that the SK has plenty of other options to increase hate gain rather than taking away 10% spell damage on a spell that is entitled "Furor". Furor already has a taunt component, so why add another temp 10% hate gain at the cost of 10% spell damage. That just seems like less fury, rage, madness, etc. that its name implies.

03-20-2009, 05:12 PM	#9
LygerT Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 2,144	if you don't like redundant or weak abilities, you are talking to the wrong person/class.

03-20-2009, 05:25 PM	#10
Windowlicker Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 1,257	That just seems like less fury, rage, madness, etc. that its name implies. Almost like making a class called "Blind-rage-anger-guy" and having it horrible at building hate eh? __________________ -------------------------- Rikko - 80 Berserker Zahne - 80 Warlock

03-20-2009, 05:30 PM	#11
LygerT Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 2,144	point is, look to my previous posts about not being the only class in the game. many classes do not follow a title as a means of being or have abilities that always perform or really do anything at all, such as being capped in haste and AE attack yet having an ability that, well, temporarily gives you haste mod and 100% AE auto attack... so, get used to it.

03-20-2009, 06:43 PM	#12
Oglock Server: Splitpaw Guild: Knights of the White Shield Rank: Officer Alt Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 9	Phank wrote: 1. Crusaders - Knight's Stance still sitting at 15.0 nerfed from 25.0 Weapon Damage Bonus. 2. Crusaders - Defensive Stance loses Parry. Defense and Agression only. 3. Shadowknight's Furor still gives 10% improved threat now in exchange for 10% spell damage. -- NO THANKS! Have you seen the excess amount of increased Hate/Threat we have at our discretion? Idolic Axe : Increases Hate Gain by up to 10% Gallantry: Increases base and crit threat of taunts by up to 10% Valor in Battle: Improves triggered threat by up to 25% Malevolent Tormenting: Increases base amt of taunts by up to 15% Let's not forget Mythical proc also adds Hate Gain from Lifetaps while Seething Hatred is on. On the bright side, Enhance Insinuate has been reverted and fixed. We now have lower resistability again. How SOE can call this a rollback I don't know, I thought this was supposed to match the live servers, instead your making the same mistake of changing things around without consultation that you said you would seek from the playerbase before working on another attempted fighter changes revamp - isn't this what got you into this mess last time?

03-20-2009, 07:01 PM	#13
LygerT Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 2,144	Oglock@Splitpaw wrote: Phank wrote: 1. Crusaders - Knight's Stance still sitting at 15.0 nerfed from 25.0 Weapon Damage Bonus. 2. Crusaders - Defensive Stance loses Parry. Defense and Agression only. 3. Shadowknight's Furor still gives 10% improved threat now in exchange for 10% spell damage. -- NO THANKS! Have you seen the excess amount of increased Hate/Threat we have at our discretion? Idolic Axe : Increases Hate Gain by up to 10% Gallantry: Increases base and crit threat of taunts by up to 10% Valor in Battle: Improves triggered threat by up to 25% Malevolent Tormenting: Increases base amt of taunts by up to 15% Let's not forget Mythical proc also adds Hate Gain from Lifetaps while Seething Hatred is on. On the bright side, Enhance Insinuate has been reverted and fixed. We now have lower resistability again. How SOE can call this a rollback I don't know, I thought this was supposed to match the live servers, instead your making the same mistake of changing things around without consultation that you said you would seek from the playerbase before working on another attempted fighter changes revamp - isn't this what got you into this mess last time? having looked around and not seen any SKs proposing real suggestions what do you expect them to do then? maybe if you were willing to lose an inch then maybe the choices wouldn't have to be made for you.

03-20-2009, 08:07 PM	#14
Santi Dominiti Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 31	These better be changed because not only are they affecting SKs but Pallies are getting the short end of the stick also in this....... And ya wouldnt a rollback have changed everything?? Or is SOE trying to stealth nerf people like they always try to do.

03-20-2009, 08:19 PM	#15
Aeralik Developer Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 672	Oglock@Splitpaw wrote: How SOE can call this a rollback I don't know, I thought this was supposed to match the live servers, instead your making the same mistake of changing things around without consultation that you said you would seek from the playerbase before working on another attempted fighter changes revamp - isn't this what got you into this mess last time? Communication goes both ways. I can communicate to you but you also have to read what I wrote above first before overreacting Again we are reverting the fighter changes. Some things may have been missed which is why it's going to test first to make sure it was all changed properly.

03-20-2009, 09:20 PM	#16
Couching Server: Crushbone Guild: Pwn Pwn Pwn Rank: CEO Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,370	Aeralik wrote: Oglock@Splitpaw wrote: How SOE can call this a rollback I don't know, I thought this was supposed to match the live servers, instead your making the same mistake of changing things around without consultation that you said you would seek from the playerbase before working on another attempted fighter changes revamp - isn't this what got you into this mess last time? Communication goes both ways. I can communicate to you but you also have to read what I wrote above first before overreacting Again we are reverting the fighter changes. Some things may have been missed which is why it's going to test first to make sure it was all changed properly. If anyone has difficulty in reading and can't understand what his post is. I will do it for you. "Sk can keep being op in dps, aggro and tanking on both single and aoe targets." Now, you guys can stop crying and keep enjoying your overpowered class.

03-20-2009, 09:28 PM	#17
Landiin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,749	Oglock@Splitpaw wrote: How SOE can call this a rollback I don't know, I thought this was supposed to match the live servers, instead your making the same mistake of changing things around without consultation that you said you would seek from the playerbase before working on another attempted fighter changes revamp - isn't this what got you into this mess last time? Just goes to show you didn't even read the thread. You just aimlessly post thus being one of the reason SOE has a reason not to even communicate with us because of people like you. Had you even bothered read just a bit you would of seen it was code that was missed in the roll back. __________________

03-21-2009, 05:26 AM	#18
VengeanceX Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 76	Aeralik wrote: It would appear that I missed some things rolling them back. It was a rather complex rollback since I had made hundreds of changes. This is why its in testing though to make sure we got everything rather than just rushing it out Btw the Insinuate resist enhancement was removed because of how aggression worked which made the resitibility enhancement rather meaningless. Well, one thing I would hope has not been rolled back is the bug fix to Grave Sacrament not triggering the hate position increase. I would test it myself but it is hard to verify without the threat logging (which I assume has been rolled back). In fact would it be possible to get the threat logging changes back before you start on the new revision of the fighter changes?

03-21-2009, 10:45 AM	#19
Elephanton General Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 985	Aeralik, are you saying that broken SK damage is to remain broken, so that they can contniue enjoyin beating T1 DPS classes on damage, tanking heroics without healer, destroying most classes in PVP under 3 sec and so on?So you are still thinking such damage is fine for a plate-protected class with abilitiy to self-heal like crazy, and even 2 different long-lasting damage immunity spells on top of that?

03-21-2009, 11:10 AM	#20
644446592 General Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Russia Posts: 35	Aeralik, please remove recast on Bloodletter. I'm tired when all raid waiting me after wipe I can cast BL. 2 min. 30 sec (with all AA) it's too long for ability which can't cast in fight. All raid (23 people) waiting me or we pull and SK in 1 of 2 pulls without own BL in fight. so that they can contniue enjoyin beating T1 DPS classes on damage In stack group and then all buffs on SK. If another class can't parse as SK in same group it's bad player. tanking heroics without healer What you talking about?

03-21-2009, 12:49 PM	#21
Elephanton General Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 985	64444659213 wrote: What you talking about? What exactly surprises you?

03-21-2009, 12:57 PM	#22
644446592 General Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Russia Posts: 35	ElephantonRU wrote: What exactly surprises you? Show me group instance there SK tank without healer? All instance, not 1-3 minutes. SK witn no avatar or top raid inctance loot. Paladin can do same. Guard in top gear can do same too. Just learn to play your class.

03-21-2009, 01:06 PM	#23
Phank Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 275	Awesome, another SK thread taken down that road of no return. At least the point was made that some changes were missed. Other than that, you can close this thread now. The vermin have taken over. Call the Verminators!!

03-21-2009, 01:32 PM	#24
steelbadger Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 816	Phank wrote: Awesome, another SK thread taken down that road of no return. At least the point was made that some changes were missed. Other than that, you can close this thread now. The vermin have taken over. Call the Verminators!! On the bright side for you, however, Aerelik has also stated that the 'nerfs' are going to be removed.

03-21-2009, 01:42 PM	#25
Gisallo Server: Lucan DLere Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,910	Just a few comments. This stuff was apparently missed in the roll back so Frankie say Relax. Also a nerf is coming and guess why it is needed. Every good SK I have spoken too (those in raid progression) has said "yep we are a little OP at the moment so we are expecting a nerf" so get ready boys and girls. If you don't think SK's are a little OP right now you have issues. As for Bloodletter every Fighter death save I know of has a recast timer. Yes the death save is good, but your healers should also have a DI. So organize whose using their death save when. If you need multiple death saves on one fight I suspect you have a bigger problem than Bloodletter taking less than 3 minutes to cast. Just a thought. __________________

03-21-2009, 01:48 PM	#26
Bruener Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,010	Valkenberg@Lucan DLere wrote: Just a few comments. This stuff was apparently missed in the roll back so Frankie say Relax. Also a nerf is coming and guess why it is needed. Every good SK I have spoken too (those in raid progression) has said "yep we are a little OP at the moment so we are expecting a nerf" so get ready boys and girls. If you don't think SK's are a little OP right now you have issues. As for Bloodletter every Fighter death save I know of has a recast timer. Yes the death save is good, but your healers should also have a DI. So organize whose using their death save when. If you need multiple death saves on one fight I suspect you have a bigger problem than Bloodletter taking less than 3 minutes to cast. Just a thought. Yeah, I seriously doubt any SKs that are "good" are telling you they need a nerf, good try. My guess would be the ones saying something are the ones that have SK alts that were mains, that now have their mains as the OP'd enchanters...its amazing how many of those are out there. Honestly, yes we feel a nerf coming only because so many others are complaining out there...its sad really since plate tanks right now feel more balanced than they ever have...and some just seem to want to displace that balance again. As far as Bloodletter goes. The problem with the recast on bloodletter is that it doesn't start until it goes off and than it can't be cast in combat. Personally, I love the ability still and that is not my beef with it. The major problem I see with Bloodletter is the fact that for those raids that might actually see 2 SKs in a raid...an alliance raid or something or PUR....with 2 SKs in a raid only 1 of them can have Bloodletter up. Bloodletter should be up for whatever SK is in a raid or group. __________________

03-21-2009, 02:04 PM	#27
644446592 General Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Russia Posts: 35	Valkenberg@Lucan DLere wrote: Just a few comments. This stuff was apparently missed in the roll back so Frankie say Relax. Also a nerf is coming and guess why it is needed. Every good SK I have spoken too (those in raid progression) has said "yep we are a little OP at the moment so we are expecting a nerf" so get ready boys and girls. If you don't think SK's are a little OP right now you have issues. As for Bloodletter every Fighter death save I know of has a recast timer. Yes the death save is good, but your healers should also have a DI. So organize whose using their death save when. If you need multiple death saves on one fight I suspect you have a bigger problem than Bloodletter taking less than 3 minutes to cast. Just a thought. We not OP. Mb I agree with nerf single target dps, but not AoE. Because we AoE tanks. We don't have aoe taunts with position increse as berserks. We are hybrid class and it's is key to our hight dps. Paladins have same dps on single target. Valkenberg, do you can read? I'm not request allow cast BL in figth. I request remove recast timer. If your raid full of slackers and you don't pull encounter in 1-2 minutes after wipe it's your problem. On wipe all triggers of BL is gone. It's not death save. Why I and my guildmates must waiting 3 minutes? Why ability what we can't cast in fight have recast time? Paladins can cast their death save in fight. Why? Or allow us cast it in fight or remove recast timer.

03-21-2009, 02:24 PM	#28
LygerT Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 2,144	64444659213 wrote: Aeralik, please remove recast on Bloodletter. I'm tired when all raid waiting me after wipe I can cast BL. 2 min. 30 sec (with all AA) it's too long for ability which can't cast in fight. All raid (23 people) waiting me or we pull and SK in 1 of 2 pulls without own BL in fight. get over yourself. if the raid had to wait for my deathsave to come up it wouldn't be a 2 minute recast, it is 15 minutes and heals for 35%, not 100%. and Bruener, plate tanks aren't as balanced as you would like to think. 64444659213 wrote: Valkenberg, do you can read? I'm not request allow cast BL in figth. I request remove recast timer. If your raid full of slackers and you don't pull encounter in 1-2 minutes after wipe it's your problem. On wipe all triggers of BL is gone. It's not death save. Why I and my guildmates must waiting 3 minutes? Why ability what we can't cast in fight have recast time? Paladins can cast their death save in fight. Why? Or allow us cast it in fight or remove recast timer. a 100% heal at the sacrifice of a little of your groups health upon your death IS still a deathsave whether you call it one or not.

03-21-2009, 02:48 PM	#29
644446592 General Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Russia Posts: 35	Lyger, it's balance. You have more taunts with position increse. We have good death save. Your death save don't kill other in raid if they have 5-10% hp. Our is can. You have more mit. increse. We have good death save. Your class depend on 3 stats (str, sta, agi), our from 4 stats and we have good death save. Your mit. increse from set bonus on def. stance. Our on BL. Think about it.

03-21-2009, 03:19 PM	#30
LygerT Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 2,144	umm ok, anyone in the group who doesn't want to sacrifice health to keep their tank alive and win can turn it off. even with the few snaps we do have the few that don't get resisted you still have superior aggro over, go figure. we have more mit increase? from where? i think you mean base avoidance, which your heals/lifetaps and deathsave cover. my class does depend on 3 stats, most gear has 4-5 stats on it and hybrid gear has all the above as well, so you get 2 heal crit, 2 spell crit and 2 melee crit on one piece that we get 2 melee crit only from. too bad zerks don't tank in defensive, because we are the worst at it of any class. anything else?