Buff Questions

[Gipper]

 I have mainly leveled my Illusionist soloing. Now that I am 78 and a half, folks are getting me for groups.  I get many conflicting reports on who gets what buff.  I have TC and IA.  Also the tandem and Rapidity.  I have folks sending me tells in group wanting them, I can't spread enough love.  My 80 illusionist buddy said to put tandem on myself, but that leaves groupies out of something they want.   Can someone please enlighten me on who is best classes for what buff.    Thanks

[Banditman]

In my typical group I run:Tandem on myselfHaste on GuardHaste on AssassinHaste on BrigandHaste on DirgeTC on InquisitorIA on AssassinIf you're still running your "group" buffs, stop.

[Miwyen]

here is a draft of what i usaly use in groups... (ofc... it depends on groupsetup and some special encounters)I always buff hte following (ofc there are exeptions)Seal of Invention (group) (i do not use this buff if there is a wizzy or a neco in the group as they ahve a siular buff and they dont work togeter)Tandem (self)----------------IA (in order of priority) Ranger>assassin> Rouge, Brawler>MT>bard (if tank has litle/none hate gain, or lose agro anyway, he gets it)TC (in order of priority) (this depends alot on how good the healer is/how hard the fight is, tanks gear and so on.. so if its a healer with healing probs... ofc give it to him/her) Healer priority: Shaman>cleric>druid (druids rarely needs TC as they are fast healers.. but if htey say they need it, better safe then sorry   )DPS priority: other illu (ofc.. lol) Wizzy/lock>summoner>Trubby/SK>pallyoverall priority: Shaman>illu>wizzy/lock>cleric>trubby/SK>pallyIf the MT is a crusader, giving them TC is a prity good option, since their taunts, selfheals and so are spells.Tandem(in order of priority) Wizzy>lock>summoner>truby/coercer (if one)/crusader tank>random scout>summoners petRapidity(in order of priority) ranger>assassin>rouge>MT>bard/brawler>anything elseeveryone has their ways.. and soon you will learn abit more about ppl you group with and know waht they acctualy do needreason a ranger is above assassin in this list on priority is becurse IA and haste effects auto attacks, and a arrow from a bow does WAY more damage the n a dagger usaly, and therefore its more DPS from a ranger (usaly) while the assassin usaly tops the DPS list becurse of their CAsDont buff summoners pet as anything but a last choise... enough said umm... if tank has agro problem, help him, whatever you need to change!If healer has healing problems and a DPS has TC.. give it to healer.I think that is pritymuch the base.. you learn in the end and get it as a "inner feeling"  and ppl will always complain about why they dont get X buff. (There are alot of ppl who brag about how good they are but realy dont liveup to that, and blame you that not giving them X buff makes you a idiot... i usaly get that from summoners, brigands and brawlers (no ofence to those of named classes who dosent do that, more of a warning based on personal experience ) remember, whatever some one says, you are the boss about buffs, and you are the onlyone who has a veto about it hope it lightensup the dark and abit tricky world of buffs

[BigPapa]

Miwyen wrote:

blha blah blah (actually, really good info in here)Tandem(in order of priority) Wizzy>lock>summoner>truby/coercer (if one)/crusader tank>random scout>summoners petwonk wonk wonk  (just kidding)

Firstly, thanks a lot for the post. A lot of good info was laid out in a clear concise manner.

However, I do have a question?  Tandem proc's per cast, Summoners cast about twice as often as sorcerers, why not give them priority?

Thx in advance

[Chock]

I always give Tandem to myself no matter the situation.  Tandem goes on mage/summoners.

Raiding, my group healer gets TC immediately to start, then I wait a couple parses then I put it on the highest parser in my group.  I check parses frequently to make sure that they are paying attention - if they drop DPS they loose TC and it goes on the highest parser once again.  If the healer cannot keep up with our group, then I put TC on them.

Grouping, TC depends.  If I have a solo healer for RE2, then TC goes on the healer (and I respec for +16 heal crit).  If we are running RE2 with two healers, then goes on highest DPS.  For most instances outside of RE2, it goes on highest DPS still unless healer falls behind.

Raiding, IA is rarely used as I am in a mage group.  In groups, IA goes on assasin or tank if they are having aggro issues. 

People will cry, beg, bribe, you name it for TC.  I have left groups because the bickering was so bad that it was extremely unfun.  Luckily, our server has a wonderful Illy community that helps each other out a ton.  When I can't put up with a groups bickering (I rarely do pickup groups anymore), then I call in a good Illy friend to fill my spot and he sets them all straight real quick since I am too wimpy to tell them to shove it. 

[Miwyen]

BigPapa wrote:

Miwyen wrote:

blha blah blah (actually, really good info in here)Tandem(in order of priority) Wizzy>lock>summoner>truby/coercer (if one)/crusader tank>random scout>summoners petwonk wonk wonk  (just kidding)

Firstly, thanks a lot for the post. A lot of good info was laid out in a clear concise manner.

Realy? and i thought i was drunk when writing it after reading it today

However, I do have a question?  Tandem proc's per cast, Summoners cast about twice as often as sorcerers, why not give them priority?

To be or not to be... to eat the cookie or save it to later... the great questions in life...

anyway, 3 reasons to i have wizzys/locks above summoners on priority list

1: have you ever seen an necro pulling agro? (well.. i havent, or atleast i can count it on my one hand) but wizzards do indeed pull agro more often. and as tandem is a VERY powerfull deagro, it serves a better purpose on wizzys as they need help with agro control.

2: eaven tho wizzys are slower casters, usaly in raids they are those who get TC... so that with andem is even better

3: personal opinion(that measn this arguement might not have ANY truth behind it waht so ever, but for me it is an arguement): unfortunatly, ive never seen summoners as "real" damage class, they are indeed DPS... but compared to wizzys, they can.. unfortuatly by far not make a match in DPS, aswell as only half (approx) of a summoners DPS is from themselves, as their pet is also very important for summoners... and placing tandem on a summoners pet is my "i realy have nothing to place my buff on and need a dump spot"

So.. to summerize it: wizards are more powerfull, and needs the deagro help WAY more.

Thx in advance

Raiding i usaly know what mob wer about to hit and know my team good nuff to know if the healer needs TC or if i give it to a wizz/lock (usaly wizz/lock, some special cases where its HIGH dmg inc the healer gets it)

I know well about the cries about buffs, and it even resulted in adding to my ignore list. and ive told everyone in my raidteam that if they want a buff, take in in groupchat, no tells about it, helps alot since ppl dont want to cry public

[Pins]

Chock@Kithicor wrote:

I always give Tandem to myself no matter the situation.  Tandem goes on mage/summoners.

Raiding, my group healer gets TC immediately to start, then I wait a couple parses then I put it on the highest parser in my group.  I check parses frequently to make sure that they are paying attention - if they drop DPS they loose TC and it goes on the highest parser once again.  If the healer cannot keep up with our group, then I put TC on them.

Grouping, TC depends.  If I have a solo healer for RE2, then TC goes on the healer (and I respec for +16 heal crit).  If we are running RE2 with two healers, then goes on highest DPS.  For most instances outside of RE2, it goes on highest DPS still unless healer falls behind.

Raiding, IA is rarely used as I am in a mage group.  In groups, IA goes on assasin or tank if they are having aggro issues. 

People will cry, beg, bribe, you name it for TC.  I have left groups because the bickering was so bad that it was extremely unfun.  Luckily, our server has a wonderful Illy community that helps each other out a ton.  When I can't put up with a groups bickering (I rarely do pickup groups anymore), then I call in a good Illy friend to fill my spot and he sets them all straight real quick since I am too wimpy to tell them to shove it. 

Uhh, I hoep your troubador doesn't ever buff you again for saying IA is rarely used while raiding because you are in a mage group.

[Banditman]

Tandem is *not* a powerful de-aggro.  Tandem is a very, very weak de-aggro.  It procs for an amount of damage (hello more aggro), then de-aggros for *slightly* more than it just added with the proc.  It isn't powerful by any stretch of even the most vivid imagination.  You're very, very lucky indeed if a proc of Tandem subtracts 200 threat per proc net total.  When a Sorcerer drops a spell that hits for 5k, tell me how powerful the de-aggro component was.Put Tandem on a Sorcerer and a Summoner.  Run an entire raid zone.  See which one does the most damage with Tandem ZW.  Most times, it's going to be the Summoner.  Your goal is to maximize raid DPS.And what is this about not using Illusory Arm because you are in the Mage group?  What kind of Mage group has no Scout?  The silly kind, for sure.  At the very least, a "Mage" group needs a Troubador.  Hello Scout.  Better yet, get two Troubadors.  Then you do something like:"Mage" Group - Fury, Troubador, Wizard, Illusionist, Ranger, Conjuror"Scout" Group - Inquisitor, Troubador, Necromancer, Assassin, Warlock, BrigandIf you only have one Troubador, you're probably *slightly* better off putting the Necro in the group with the Troubador in place of the Ranger.

[Miwyen]

counting that most raid.. and normal T8 mobs have quiet some mitigation towards everything...i dont think 200 is the right number, and IIRC if tandem crits, so will the deagro do and as i been running tandem on all or atleast most of the mages in raid as we are 2 illus... as far as ive seen... it helps the sorcerer more then a summoner.and yes, i do agree! we are here to enchant the preformeance of the raid.. and dead sorcerers are such AWESOME DPS woooohooooo and since all raids uses their own builds of groups etc... the scout i usealy find in my group is the lovely trubby, who gets IA else there are mages of sorts, and a fury, or at times whatever healer that was left lol

[Banditman]

Alright, let's assume it does crit.  Not that there is ANY way to prove that de-aggro numbers can crit, but just for giggles.260 net de-aggro per proc.  woohoo!  Again, how much does 260 de-aggro in the face of a 5k nuke  help?  Yea, that's what I thought.If your Sorcs are getting more out of Tandem than Summoners get new Summoners.

[Miwyen]

if tandem has the stats of 800-970 threat reduction, and 605-735 mental damage...ofcurse the mob will suffer for 735 mental damage, they are stupid and havent found mitigation in their dictionary! yay!. now deagro is not effected by mitigation so i think it does *Slightly* more then 200 deagro in comarision to damage done, then counting the wizzy having TC, using Wicked wand of malice, having bard speed thing, and various own speed items... they suddenly aint that slow... and still, if a wizzy can score 7k DPS with tandem.. but dies without it, at lower DPS, maybe it helps :Oand how much damage does a dead wizzy do dead? omg thats right! they do zero! and now mitigation, speed, deagro or 8k nukes wont matte,r as they overagroed, wasent giving aid in keeping it down, and they are a burden to the healers, will take time to recover, so yay raid lost DPS... win win!

[Pins]

Taunts and detaunts don't crit, period.As for mobs having mitigation.  No, mobs do not have any mitigation that lowers damage.  If you cast a spell taht says 500-1000 damage on it, it will do 500-1000 damage to the mob provided there are 0 debuffs on the mob for that damage type, period.  It will never do less than 500.  The way mob mitigation works is by having more resists until you debuff the mob.  That's the difference.As for Tandem, Tandem for me has a median of around 1900.  Guess what that means.  I'm gaining 1000 aggro for everytime it procs.  Therefore, the de-aggro is only de-aggroing for less than half of the damage at most.

[Miwyen]

Pinski wrote:

Taunts and detaunts don't crit, period.Thankyou for killing that myth As for mobs having mitigation. No, mobs do not have any mitigation that lowers damage. If you cast a spell taht says 500-1000 damage on it, it will do 500-1000 damage to the mob provided there are 0 debuffs on the mob for that damage type, period. It will never do less than 500. The way mob mitigation works is by having more resists until you debuff the mob. That's the difference.allright... alot of debuffs jsut got stamped pointless.. and i thought that was what disruption was for?As for Tandem, Tandem for me has a median of around 1900. Guess what that means. I'm gaining 1000 aggro for everytime it procs. Therefore, the de-aggro is only de-aggroing for less than half of the damage at most.Nice! i wish i had a tandem that powerfull aswell.. sadly, mine is still more deagro then mental damage

[AziBam]

The debuffs are still needed.  Crits and a debuffed mob would be the reason that Pinski has an average that high on tandem hits. I'm sure he also has the spell at M1 but that only adds a relatively small amount over A3.  What he is saying is that the damage range on your spell examine tool tip is what it would hit for on a mob that has not yet been debuffed at all.  So, the debuffs and crits hit harder than the "normal" range but the detaunt stays static therefore you gain hate with tandem not lose it (on average.) The detaunt just reduces how much overall hate it would otherwise give. As for buff order.  Similar to several above I put TC on Sorc before summoner.  I have never put TC on a chanter. If needed on a healer then I'd aim it at shaman then clerics.  (Druids cast much more quickly anyway.) IA on the best melee option in your group.  (Ranger at top of the list.) If I have to choose between rapidity or tandem then in most cases I'd give out rapidity first to a melee class before tandem on a caster. Tandem for me would go self, coercers, summoners, sorc....others (bards, crusaders).I virtually never have either group buff up unless there is some very unusual situation where I have a free conc slot.

[Banditman]

The above looks very similar to my buff order on Tandem, as well as overall buffing strategy.  Having my Mythical gives me an advantage in that I only cast Haste one time for everyone.And yea, debuffs matter.  Huge.  In a good raid you should be aiming for averaging at least twice whatever your max listed damage is on every single thing.  You may struggle to get there in a newbie raid force, but that should be your goal.

[Mihos]

+disruption helps with outright resists, not with damage amount.