Assassin over Swash in Raid MT grp

[DeemonEQ]

Having not played an Assassin its hard to know the answer...so hoping someone else has played both...or knows the answer to this..

 Why is the assassin preferred in a MT grp over a swash..from what i understand...their dps although high is burst damage and not constant dps...their hate transfer isnt as high as ours...what am i missing ?

Thanks

[wolfetx]

 A assassin in the MT group as hate feed over a swashy thats just plain silly. Swashy is hands down the best hate feed in game. 19-27% hate feed (mythical) and while a assassin does dps higher there dps is a straight damage amount(1 point of damage=1point of hate)Where as a swashy has good dps also we add in the fact of debuff on almost every ca cast. Now unless i missed it we dont know how much hate 1 point of debuff = point of hate but imo its pretty large. The debuf hate+dps hate+ higher % of transfer makes swashy hands down the best hate feed in game. Remember we also normaly run 2 debuf posions at once (turgur and ether enfeeble or graceless) and assassins pretty much have to run bliss or die so we add in the hate from those 2 debuff posions compared otthe assassins 1 debuf posion. If your raid leader is placing the assassin in the MT group over a swashy he needs to educate himself a little more.Theres more reasons to this than just hate feed thu. Placing the assassin in the normal MT group not only  gives a subpar hate feed but semi [Removed for Content] the assassins dps. Normaly your MT group will have tank,templar,shaman,dirge,coecer and  swashy. you see assassins self buff there dps mod very very high and well it makes the dirge dps mob buff and the coecers dps mod buff almost worthless on them. Where assassins shine most is in a dps ( they fit into the mage group very well)group with a illy (IA and haste buf) troub ( jesters, haste, and deagro) and a fury ( agitate or what ever the upgrade is called to it chance to proc haste and dps mod int buf for posion) If your raid dirges have there mythicals the assassin doesnt even lose out on CoB since with mythical its a raid wide buf. So you can plainly see assassin in the MT group is silly in several ways.Yes that comes from some one who plays both and more.80 swashy80 assassin80 dirge80 templar80 mystic80 fury80 illy80 guardian (collects dust who needs a guardian tank for heroic when you got a swashy )

[Bunion]

The guild I am in isn't any kind of uber raiding guild, but our main tank group is pretty much exactly set up as wolfetx described. In some fights (depending on the mob etc.) I'll stay on what ever target the MT is on while everyone else is assisting the MA as it helps build up hate for the MT and has my debuffs on the mob to reduce the damage that MT is tanking until everyone else can start killing it. I am the only swashy in our guild though so if I am not able to make a raid they use an assassin in the MT group.

Bunion/Callus

[Trojenn]

I have to agree, Assasin in MT grp is silly. We run Guardian Dirge Templar Mystic Warden Coercer. When the xtra hate is needed however i do take over the position in MT grp in place of the Warden. There is no exact ratio of Debuff ---> Hate points. But here is a prime exampal of how much Debuffs add to hate.

How is it a swash that averages 4-6K DPS on single target mob pull agro when an assasin pulls out a 7-9k DPS parse on the exact same mob not pull agro. When grping with some of our alt tanks, I run ingorant bliss. So in reality I have ( Ignorant Bliss----poison, Avoid----maintaned buff, Swarthy Disorder----19% Hate Transfer, Swarthy Chaos----xtra % hate transfer from mythical/fabled epic) <---- lots of deagro going on there.  Assasin (Ignorant Bliss----poison, Assasin Hate Transfer----16% Hate xfer) <---- 2 Maintained deagros. Swashbuckler has alot more deagro going on but yet can still pull agro over an assasin. Debuffs generate ALOT more hate IMO than damage.

But yes IMHO Swashi > Assasin in MT grp anyday, (unless your tank just wants a poisoned weapon   ) But hey if anyone wants to send a tell to Txleather on the Bazzare server and tell him to drop the Warden for me in the MT grp, I would be happy . 

[Zin`Car]

121 dirtybird wrote:

How is it a swash that averages 4-6K DPS on single target mob pull agro when an assasin pulls out a 7-9k DPS parse on the exact same mob not pull agro. When grping with some of our alt tanks, I run ingorant bliss. So in reality I have ( Ignorant Bliss----poison, Avoid----maintaned buff, Swarthy Disorder----19% Hate Transfer, Swarthy Chaos----xtra % hate transfer from mythical/fabled epic) <---- lots of deagro going on there.  Assasin (Ignorant Bliss----poison, Assasin Hate Transfer----16% Hate xfer) <---- 2 Maintained deagros. Swashbuckler has alot more deagro going on but yet can still pull agro over an assasin. Debuffs generate ALOT more hate IMO than damage.

But yes IMHO Swashi > Assasin in MT grp anyday, (unless your tank just wants a poisoned weapon " width="15" height="15" />  ) But hey if anyone wants to send a tell to Txleather on the Bazzare server and tell him to drop the Warden for me in the MT grp, I would be happy " width="15" height="15" /> . 

First, in reading this i am assuming that your swash has the mast version of hate xfer.  Based on that assumption, i will wager then that you are putting it against an assassin's master hate xfer?  if so, you are wrong on the %.  Assassin master hate xfer is 19%, not 16%. (note screen shot below and yes, we dont get any higher than L53 for our debuff)

As for why do assassins NOT pull agro and a swashy does?  Believe me, it's not because you're as uber as you may believe yourself to be.  Don't take that as a flame attack against swashies.  I have a swash i've started and am having a ball with the class.  But please look over the following screen shot and you will understand A LOT better as to why as well rounded (pve) assassin can and will always put out insane dps by comparison and not take agro.

Should an assassin choose to go full on with the IB skill for aa's as i have shown here, our IB poison is 50% MORE effective.  That's very significant.  As i said, i've just begun playing my swashy and haven't looked over the aa lines at all but i do know that assassins are built to pump out a ton of dps and get rid the residual agro as fast as we possibly can.

So trust me when i say, ya i think the swash class is a great class but you don't steal agro more because you're uber, it's because assassins can dump their's more efficiently.  If an assassin were to dump agro at the same level as swashies, they'd take agro all the time.  However we don't... we like seeing you get popped instead. heh 

[wolfetx]

121 dirtybird wrote:

I have to agree, Assasin in MT grp is silly. We run Guardian Dirge Templar Mystic Warden Coercer. When the xtra hate is needed however i do take over the position in MT grp in place of the Warden. There is no exact ratio of Debuff ---> Hate points. But here is a prime exampal of how much Debuffs add to hate.

How is it a swash that averages 4-6K DPS on single target mob pull agro when an assasin pulls out a 7-9k DPS parse on the exact same mob not pull agro. When grping with some of our alt tanks, I run ingorant bliss. So in reality I have ( Ignorant Bliss----poison, Avoid----maintaned buff, Swarthy Disorder----19% Hate Transfer, Swarthy Chaos----xtra % hate transfer from mythical/fabled epic) <---- lots of deagro going on there.  Assasin (Ignorant Bliss----poison, Assasin Hate Transfer----16% Hate xfer) <---- 2 Maintained deagros. Swashbuckler has alot more deagro going on but yet can still pull agro over an assasin. Debuffs generate ALOT more hate IMO than damage.

But yes IMHO Swashi > Assasin in MT grp anyday, (unless your tank just wants a poisoned weapon " />  ) But hey if anyone wants to send a tell to Txleather on the Bazzare server and tell him to drop the Warden for me in the MT grp, I would be happy " /> . 

 Flat out drop the warden in the MT group and put the swashy there. The only time we go t oa 3 healer MT group is for really really rough encounters. I think we are down to  just doing that for druushk and nexona now.

[Rippitt]

Let's just muse here.. Swashbuckler has an increased 5% hate gain up basically all the time. Assassin has a decrease 35-40% hate gain up when they are doing their uber dps concealment chain. Swashbuckler transfers 27% hate to target (up most of the time, proc) Assassin transfers 19% hate to target Swashbuckler gets self buff for 69 haste on top of a haste item (40) Assassin gets self buff for 78 dpsmod on top of a haste item (40) MT group buffs: +35 dpsmod (group, dirge) +68 dpsmod (conc, coercer) +64 haste (17|60, dirge) Clearly looking at matching class to class for buff purposes and efficiency clearing trash, the swashbuckler is a much better option for the MT group. Also, as discussed above, swashbucklers simply generate more hate. We also drop more hate. Our self deaggro buff alone drops more threat than the assassins' upgraded ignorant bliss poison, elude, and surveillance put together. If that's still arguable (it shouldn't be) - we can run ignorant bliss too, on top of our superior hate transfer and ridiculous self de-aggro proc. If that's still not enough, there's a chance we might have to open the knowledge book and use elude/hideaway to drop aggro. If this is the case though, your tank is awful, not the choice of scouts in his group.

[Shiverr]

Swash - Good hate Xfer, Good DPS, Good survivability, Good debuffing, TS, and another AE block for MT.... whats not to like?

[AegisCrown]

advanced warning blocks aoes that arn't direct

[PakMonyet]

You guys forgot:

Swashbucklers bring da SEXY to the MT group (and all groups).....

Assassins bring cold coffee to the MT group....

.....easy choice!

[Junaru]

You guys are forgetting a Swashie can taunt and a Assassin can't. I know if my Monk is an Amends target I taunt like mad and NO ONE including a life burning necro can pull aggro from the Pally.I got the idea from a Swashie thread where someone asked if they taunt when in the MT group. So add the damage+debuff transfer, better use of MTG buffs on top of taunting transfer and clearly the Swashie wins in the MTG.

[OutcastBlade]

Missed the point. Edited out :p

[Mr. Dawki]

Try looking at it like this

assassin M1 hate doing 7k dps 7000 * .19 = 1330

swash  with 27% at 5k   5000 * .27 = 1350

BEFORE YOU FLAME AWAY! These are just numbers I see in my own guild.

Another reason an assasin MIGHT be better. Assassins tend to completly explode in dps in the beginning and end of every fight. Yes a swash will be more consistant but an assassin will spike high in the very beginning when the threat of loosing agro is highest for the MT.

Like others have stated swash will be better if it was a group encounter but on a single mob they are almost exactly the same

[OutcastBlade]

You have just proven indirectly that swashies are much much better hate xfer by showing a.) the large difference in dps and b.) the small difference in hate xfer between your guild swashy and your guild assassin. " />But the main thing here is consistency. Is your assassin consistently getting 7K or more, and the swashy consistently getting 5K or less?And is this on the raid trash? Because on raid trash, my little fabled epic can net me runner up for highest dps in the raid, with either a wizard or... you guessed it... an assassin taking pole position... snicker. The problem is, the pole position parsers are rarely ever more than a few hundred dps above me, let alone 2K dps.Therefor my hate xfer is better than their hate xfer.One thing I will kind of concede to is the burst damage hate xfer. I always open up the fight with insight, and racial combat buff, shortly after hitting on guard and I shoot up to number 1 on the parse list, eventually getting shunted down to third or fourth and sloooowly rising up after that. Meaning I have decent burst damage myself right in the beginning, and I can sustain my dps throughout the fight better than most, thanks to being a swashy. But when there's a good assassin in the raid, daaaamn.

[riblete]

How about the reverse:Does a swashy have to pace themselves significantly slower when not in the MT group?What techniques do you prefer to use to keep hate down?Can you use the hate-transfer?A preferred class to transfer to?

[OutcastBlade]

1.) No. You should be able to dps your heart out and not rip aggro if you are using your detaunts when they light up.2.) Baffle. And hideaway I keep for when I do rip.3.) Most definitely. But only if you are at least in the MA group and you have a tank to xfer to. Othewise if you are in the dps group you dont use hate xfer.4.) Hate Xfer is group based. If you are in the MT group or the MA group the choice is clear. Or if you are in the dps group and a wizard or assassin is getting on your case or just plain outdpsing you(most often the case :p), put your hate xfer on them for the lulz. Kidding... don't.

[riblete]

Rippitt@Oasis wrote:

Swashbuckler transfers 27% hate to target (up most of the time, proc)

I am missing something, and I do not know what it might be. Right now I am level 74, and I can not see any upcoming spell that increases hate transfer. The level 61 or 62 hate transfer is available as a Level 65 Master II, with 19% transfer. It might have been 17%, but I am at work so can not check. How are people getting the hate transfer to 27%?Thanks

[Ashr]

ribleteto wrote:

Rippitt@Oasis wrote:

Swashbuckler transfers 27% hate to target (up most of the time, proc)

I am missing something, and I do not know what it might be. Right now I am level 74, and I can not see any upcoming spell that increases hate transfer. The level 61 or 62 hate transfer is available as a Level 65 Master II, with 19% transfer. It might have been 17%, but I am at work so can not check. How are people getting the hate transfer to 27%?Thanks

Swashbuckler Mythical.

[riblete]

The Mythical weapon? A piece of armor? It procs a 27% transfer, or it adds +8% to the transfer?Thanks for the answers. I am trying to set myself up for early-tier raiding by the time I hit 80. Getting the spells is going to be the hardest part. Loams are expensive! I am trying to harvest for them, but wow! Either rare hardly ever drops off rocks. I get plenty of other rares from wood, gems, roots, etc., but not loams from rocks.Any must-do quest items, or specific gear from group instances that I should seek out?

[Rippitt]

Most of the players raiding end-game content did every single soloable and most of the heroic quests in Kunark during launch. There's 3 pieces of quested gear that I still wear raiding T4+ raid content, although I hope to replace them soon. Off the top of my head for gear: Coif of the Reet Knight - blue shiny collection from Sebilis MC Haste Cloak - tailor? Gi of the Jarsath Swiftail - fabled drop from Maiden's Chamber Grim Shoulderpads - legendary drop from Crypt of Agony Nug'soth's Reverent Wristguards - legendary drop from Chelsith Blackened Alloy Gloves - legendary drop from Runnyeye: The Gathering Sarnak Utility Belt - faction merchant - Ry'zilk's Renegades Chain Leggings of the Lyrist - fabled drop from the named golem at the CoA/PR zone-in Trooper Scale Boots - legendary drop from any Jarsath Wastes named Ganak's Torque - fabled drop from Vaults Assassin's Stud - legendary drop from CoA trash Droag Talon Plugs - quested, Jarsath Wastes timeline Band of Thuuga - quested, 'A Fistful of Metal' MC Str-proc ring - jeweler? Tynonnium Shackle - quested, Kunzar Jungle timeline Rune Covered Wristband - legendary drop from Maiden's Chamber Charm's Way - swashbuckler fabled epic Carotidcutter - fabled drop from CoA Satchel of Lifebending - legendary drop from Dominus in KP That's about what I would be wearing without access to raid gear. I could probably parse 4-5k zonewides in T1-T3 content with that setup.

[riblete]

Thanks for the excellent list.

[OutcastBlade]

Rippitt@Oasis wrote:

Most of the players raiding end-game content did every single soloable and most of the heroic quests in Kunark during launch. There's 3 pieces of quested gear that I still wear raiding T4+ raid content, although I hope to replace them soon.Off the top of my head for gear:Coif of the Reet Knight - blue shiny collection from SebilisMC Haste Cloak - tailor?Gi of the Jarsath Swiftail - fabled drop from Maiden's ChamberGrim Shoulderpads - legendary drop from Crypt of AgonyNug'soth's Reverent Wristguards - legendary drop from ChelsithBlackened Alloy Gloves - legendary drop from Runnyeye: The GatheringSarnak Utility Belt - faction merchant - Ry'zilk's RenegadesChain Leggings of the Lyrist - fabled drop from the named golem at the CoA/PR zone-inTrooper Scale Boots - legendary drop from any Jarsath Wastes namedGanak's Torque - fabled drop from VaultsAssassin's Stud - legendary drop from CoA trashDroag Talon Plugs - quested, Jarsath Wastes timelineBand of Thuuga - quested, 'A Fistful of Metal'MC Str-proc ring - jeweler?Tynonnium Shackle - quested, Kunzar Jungle timelineRune Covered Wristband - legendary drop from Maiden's ChamberCharm's Way - swashbuckler fabled epicCarotidcutter - fabled drop from CoASatchel of Lifebending - legendary drop from Dominus in KPThat's about what I would be wearing without access to raid gear. I could probably parse 4-5k zonewides in T1-T3 content with that setup.

For raid gear all I have is the Cursing Coil, and Betrayal's Song, and only half of that stuff. I am not dps optimal with my gear and I can parse up to 4k in a raid. I am getting there, and I am raiding now.

But regardless Q... F... E. Thanks for the information mate.

[liveja]

Pretty much every single raid I've attended, in the month since I've come back, has used an Assassin in the MT group.

/shrug

I'm just sayin'.

[Rippitt]

That poor assassin.

[OutcastBlade]

Poor MT more like.