Spell Consolidation :: How would we go about it?

Istaril · 08-09-2007, 08:15 AM

The title pretty much says it all - it appears Sony is consolidating certain spells. This isn't a post to discuss the reasons behind it, or whether less/more buttonmashing/choices is a good/bad thing. This is operating under the assumption that some spells WILL be consolidated - which, do we as templars, feel are best suited to the idea? I'd say : Add supplicating fate's heal to one of our other debuffs (Probably Involuntary Restoration, just based off the spell name). Supplicating fate is a spell used so rarely, but a templar-y idea - keep it and add it as a nice plus to a useful debuff. Make Smite and Holy Strike into one (Favouring Holy Smite). Adjust cast/recast accordingly. The two are used in conjunction anyway, have similar ideas, and one is just straight-up-damage with no flavour. Make warring axiom and bloodlines spell into one. They're both duration dots, and one is never used. Combine Daze and Stun into one, longer duration, control effect. They both serve the same purpose - and although the flexibility of putting two up on seperate targets is nice, it could be balanced by simply being better on one target. Or (pretty please) have some effect on epics. Add Blessings and Enduring Breath to other buffs, rather than making them stand alone. Possibly make our Master Strike simply be a (small) passive bonus to Holy strike against LnL targets. Combine Rezzes - make resurrect 75%, and on same timer as the other two single targets, reducing it's recast considerbly (but making it shorter recast out of combat). Keep group rez as-is. Possibly emergency reactives - make group upgrade to single (ie replaces it when you get it at level), and make it better than it currently is. (The above would shorten our spell list by a considerable 10, while only slightly harming our flexibility and saving us a fair bit of time/hotbar space) Some AA ability changes might be warranted - tying, say, INT2 as simply an added single-target damage bonus to a nuke, and wis2 as an enhancement to another, adding the shield ally ability to your stoneskin buff. The difficulty of course lies where Inquisitors and Templars have distinct skills - what would shield ally be added to for them, to avoid extra buffage? Would wis II similarily increase the equivalent nuke/ca? Changes to the buffs would have to involve changes to concentration slots (add more, but make spells cost 2 or 3?), and possibly the inclusion of raid-wide buffs. They could justify gallantry and symbol merging, they could justify holy redoubt/glory merging... but in so limiting our options for concentration slots, they'd have to be extremely careful to balance it. Temp buffs and debuffs could require concentration, if they are able to mess with the whole concentration system.

Tash 1 · 08-09-2007, 09:18 AM

Probably good ideas but since I think the whole idea from start is just awfully stupid and just another step in dumb simplifying this game, I don't really feel its of any interest to discuss what part of the game they will cut away. SMILEY /Hugs Tash

Caethre · 08-09-2007, 09:28 AM

Istaril wrote:

I'd say : Add supplicating fate's heal to one of our other debuffs (Probably Involuntary Restoration, just based off the spell name). Supplicating fate is a spell used so rarely, but a templar-y idea - keep it and add it as a nice plus to a useful debuff.

OOC.

Used rarely? Wow. This must be a playstyle thing. Supplicating Fate is one of our most powerful spells. I poured five AP ranks lovingly into this spell, and use it constantly. In chatting to fellow Templars I know, they also love this spell. Perhaps it is some raiding players who don't like it, I have no idea? But for the mass of solo/small group casual-playstyle players like me, this is one of the best spells in our book!

Yes, Involuntary could be merged into it, but that would concern me as it would increase the power cost of the spell and given me an extra effect I did not need. This is because Involuntary is usually redundant (I rarely cast it). I'd suggest this was not done, but it wouldn't be a disaster as long as they didn't take away the Supplicating Fate AP gains (they could delete the Involuntary APs tomorrow and I wouldn't care, however).

I suspect playstyle differences would have an impact on views on this one.

Istaril wrote:

Make Smite and Holy Strike into one (Favouring Holy Smite). Adjust cast/recast accordingly. The two are used in conjunction anyway, have similar ideas, and one is just straight-up-damage with no flavour.

This would create balance issues for DPS. I would suggest, I would not want these kinds of things fiddled with. Either way, this won't happen, I suspect.

Istaril wrote:

Make warring axiom and bloodlines spell into one. They're both duration dots, and one is never used.

This is a good suggestion. I can't think of anyone who uses the bloodlines spell more than very occasionally. Many don't even put it on their spellbars as far as I can ascertain.

The rest of the points I am neutral on, I don't suspect many of them will happen.

Combining seperate permanent group buffs into a single permanent group buff and making the combined buff need the sum of the two concentration values, would have zero effect, and is a likely possibility.

Istaril · 08-09-2007, 09:35 AM

Ok - let me rephrase. Those mobs where Involuntary Restoration is worth casting (and for those playstyles), Supplicating fate is, as a general rule, a poor spell. (Ie - raid mobs or hard named) Those mobs where Supplicating fate is worth casting (and for those playstyles), Involuntary restoration is, as a general rule, worthless (Ie multi-mob encounters or fast-fast pulls). So why not merge the two, and not actually increase the power cost etc? The so called balance issues - well, to keep dps the same dependent/independent of procs only takes a short time - you're only dealing with the damge dealt by two spells being combined to result in the same average damage (vs non undead - hopefully more vs undead SMILEY

) - not that tricky. As for combining symbol/gallantry having zero effect - I beg to differ. Sure, the effects would also be minor (for a templar), but there's still the odd situation where I'd rather have gallantry and an extra redoubt(or glory), or symbol and an extra redoubt(or glory). Another spell that we could get rid of/merge is to tie summoning rez-essences to another spell (like gallantry) - again to save us a cast (and help forgetful templars) - BUT this might cause some lag issues on dispelling mobs.

Mabes · 08-09-2007, 11:56 AM

I'm really not a fan of this whole concept, seems like just dumbing down the game, however I will reserve any criticisms until I see the actual changes once RoK comes out. But as far as changes, I can see all permanent group buffs being merged into one, and could see our debuffs being merged. As far as nukes being merged, well they've have to work the cast/recast timers around some, as currently while chain casting nukes, there's little down time, but if they merge them without reworking recast timers, there would be more downtime from having less nukes to use.

As far as supplicating fate on raiding goes, yeah it's not that useful, except in fights that spawn low-hp adds (like Mayong). It's a group heal for 1400-something hp, and costs hardly any mana, and it did 21% of my total heals one Mayong fight where I wasn't in mt group. But yeah, other than a select few fights, it's not a useful raid spell.

dragontamer619 · 08-09-2007, 12:01 PM

I don't see DPS being that big of an issue if they combine our 2 smites. One does double damage to undead and the other has been changed a few times already. So in essence if you combine the 2 smites, it would deal double damage to any mob and triple damage to undead. (Which is essentially happens now if you cast them together)

With Warring Axiom and Symbol of Corruption, if you combine the 2 they should take the DoT effect from Axiom and the debuff effect from Symbol of Corruption.

As far as healing spells go, I feel the best thing they could do (if they do consolidate them) is put Supplicating Fate and Involuntary Restoration together. You'd have one spell that can proc a heal, proc a cure, and give a group cure at the end. That's the only one that makes logical sense to me.

Another change I feel they could make and wouldn't hurt us too bad is making all of our cures into 1. So we'd have a cure all spell for single targets and our 1 group arcane/trauma cure. That'd free up 4 spots on my hot bar.

My concern at the moment is how will these consolidations change our AA builds. If they combine our smites into 1 or 2 spells, and some Templars have points down the Smites AA line, what will become of those?

Jevangal · 08-10-2007, 10:36 AM

dragontamer619 wrote:

I don't see DPS being that big of an issue if they combine our 2 smites. One does double damage to undead and the other has been changed a few times already. So in essence if you combine the 2 smites, it would deal double damage to any mob and triple damage to undead. (Which is essentially happens now if you cast them together)
With Warring Axiom and Symbol of Corruption, if you combine the 2 they should take the DoT effect from Axiom and the debuff effect from Symbol of Corruption.
As far as healing spells go, I feel the best thing they could do (if they do consolidate them) is put Supplicating Fate and Involuntary Restoration together. You'd have one spell that can proc a heal, proc a cure, and give a group cure at the end. That's the only one that makes logical sense to me.
Another change I feel they could make and wouldn't hurt us too bad is making all of our cures into 1. So we'd have a cure all spell for single targets and our 1 group arcane/trauma cure. That'd free up 4 spots on my hot bar.
My concern at the moment is how will these consolidations change our AA builds. If they combine our smites into 1 or 2 spells, and some Templars have points down the Smites AA line, what will become of those?

Combining the 2 smite spells would spoil solo play IMO. When soloing, I use those two spells in conjuncton with the heroic opportunity over and over again (with warring axiom and the odd hammer smite). It makes a nice difference to the fight. Supplicating fate is a life saver in a raid. After casting reactive heals on the MT, I get involuntary restoration, mark of the celestial and spurn on the mob as soon as I can. This gives me less to do in the fight and reduces the number of direct heals I need to cast (our casting and recovery speeds for direct heals is rather slow). Now, the duration of each of all 4 of these spells is 1 minute each. Because it can take 2 minutes or more to take down some epics, if the two spells were combined, then you just casted SF along with IR and consequently wasted some power (and probably casting time) that could have been better used in response to what was going on. Secondly, in a multi-mob encounter, if you can get supplicating fate on the mob at the right time, then the fact that it lasts for a full minute gives you time to cast it at a convenient point and then do other stuff. Thus, the tank gets a nice automatic heal, saving you from casting a direct heal and allowing you to get IR, MoC and spurn on the next mob as soon as possible, once again saving you from casting direct heals and also giving you the chance to respond to other things. I would hate to be forced into casting supplicating fate once or twice on the same mob. I have the same objection against consolidating the cures - it is highly likely they would increase the power cost and casting time of a universal cure spell. If the power cost was not increased, this would make it easier to play the templar, which would then reduce the challenge, thus decreasing the gap between a noob and a person who knows their templar well. I like to think I get invited to raids on merit, not because the game mechanics make my job ridiculously easy. So I would hate to see any of these changes - we are fine as we are.

Istaril · 08-10-2007, 10:51 AM

I can't see an issue with merging the two (Supplicating Fate and Involuntary Restoration) without touching power/cast time. As stated - the two are generally used in different circumstances, and adding one effect to the other wouldn't by any means be overpowered. Slight buff to the class, but as I assume we'll be taking slight nerfs in other places (like if they merge the two nukes - for HO purposes is a bit of a nerf). As for the cure system - I don't see how they can justify merging them. I mean - it can't just cure x levels of "something", because sometimes you *need* to cure arcane before trauma, etc. If it cures x levels of everything - abilities like ancient balm become entirely useless - and group cures become even more situational. In addition, they'd have to mess with recast / power costs, and could drastically alter one of the fundamental (if not most enjoyable) aspects of healing. I mean... it could be done, but they'd have to change some curing mechanics too. Merging the rezzes and making out of combat/in combat recasts different seems like a fix that could be applied to several classes - including stealthers with an out-of-combat fast cast stealth and an in combat slower cast stealth.

Jevangal · 08-10-2007, 11:10 AM

If they didn't increase the power usage and casting time of a combined supplicating fate/involuntary restoration, then I can see an advantage from an efficiency point of view. For example: involuntary restoration has, say, 20 seconds to run, the epic is on about 10% health and there are no DOTs or debuffs on the tank - the epic is all but beaten so in goes supplicating fate. If they are both combined into one spell, then it would be no great inconvenience to simply cast the combined spell again. But do we really think the devs would give us such a gift without hitting us elsewhere? I would take leaving these spells as they are over a nerf elsewhere anyday.

Bjerde · 08-18-2007, 10:55 AM

Istaril wrote:

Ok - let me rephrase. Those mobs where Involuntary Restoration is worth casting (and for those playstyles), Supplicating fate is, as a general rule, a poor spell. (Ie - raid mobs or hard named) Those mobs where Supplicating fate is worth casting (and for those playstyles), Involuntary restoration is, as a general rule, worthless (Ie multi-mob encounters or fast-fast pulls).

This is exactly why these two spells cannot be merged. They are typically used in opposite situations. If you have grp mobs, you will cast Supplicating Fate to get a 'free' group heal on the group mid-fight (ie - Lyceum mobs) and you cast this near the end of the mobs life. Involuntary Restoration is the first debuff I cast because it is so good. This makes more sense on mobs that have a few more hp and will take advantage of the heal proc by staying alive for awhile. Merge Spurn and Involuntary together if anything, those are the first two debuffs you should be casting. Shoot merge Mark in there too. All three should be on right away. Supplicating Fate is the only debuff that is used differently, so it cannot be combined. I really don't want these changes to go live, spell consolidation is ridiculous and not needed but I also don't want them to bork it, if they do try it.

Kizee · 08-18-2007, 11:09 AM

Supplicating Fate is probally the best spell tempars get...for exp group AND raids. People that say it is useless in raids have not killed any of the raid mobs that spawn alot of adds. When I am in OT group I can keep the group alive just on this spell alone while remaining at full power the whole fight. I don't know how people can say a 1500 point group heal for 85 power is useless. SMILEY

08-09-2007, 09:18 AM	#2
Tash 1 General Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 240	Probably good ideas but since I think the whole idea from start is just awfully stupid and just another step in dumb simplifying this game, I don't really feel its of any interest to discuss what part of the game they will cut away. /Hugs Tash __________________

08-09-2007, 09:28 AM	#3
Caethre Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,167	Istaril wrote: I'd say : Add supplicating fate's heal to one of our other debuffs (Probably Involuntary Restoration, just based off the spell name). Supplicating fate is a spell used so rarely, but a templar-y idea - keep it and add it as a nice plus to a useful debuff. OOC. Used rarely? Wow. This must be a playstyle thing. Supplicating Fate is one of our most powerful spells. I poured five AP ranks lovingly into this spell, and use it constantly. In chatting to fellow Templars I know, they also love this spell. Perhaps it is some raiding players who don't like it, I have no idea? But for the mass of solo/small group casual-playstyle players like me, this is one of the best spells in our book! Yes, Involuntary could be merged into it, but that would concern me as it would increase the power cost of the spell and given me an extra effect I did not need. This is because Involuntary is usually redundant (I rarely cast it). I'd suggest this was not done, but it wouldn't be a disaster as long as they didn't take away the Supplicating Fate AP gains (they could delete the Involuntary APs tomorrow and I wouldn't care, however). I suspect playstyle differences would have an impact on views on this one. Istaril wrote: Make Smite and Holy Strike into one (Favouring Holy Smite). Adjust cast/recast accordingly. The two are used in conjunction anyway, have similar ideas, and one is just straight-up-damage with no flavour. This would create balance issues for DPS. I would suggest, I would not want these kinds of things fiddled with. Either way, this won't happen, I suspect. Istaril wrote: Make warring axiom and bloodlines spell into one. They're both duration dots, and one is never used. This is a good suggestion. I can't think of anyone who uses the bloodlines spell more than very occasionally. Many don't even put it on their spellbars as far as I can ascertain. The rest of the points I am neutral on, I don't suspect many of them will happen. Combining seperate permanent group buffs into a single permanent group buff and making the combined buff need the sum of the two concentration values, would have zero effect, and is a likely possibility. __________________ Countess Felishanna Silorielenwe [92/320 Templar\|92 Sage](Koada`Dal) Lady Lorianna Ardinwena [92/320 Monk\|92 Carpenter](Koada`Dal) Lady Suzanna Narinyaare [92/320 Conjuror\|92 Woodworker](Koada`Dal) Lady Annaelisa Lorinfinlinde [92/320 Fury\|92 Tailor](Koada`Dal) Lady Silvianna [92/320 Illusionist\|92 Jeweler](Koada`Dal) Jennianna [92/320 Dirge\|92 Weaponsmith](Koada`Dal) Aurielle [92/320 Wizard\|92 Alchemist](Koada`Dal) Valerianna [92/320 Guardian\|92 Armourer](Koada`Dal) Sarahanna [92/320 Swashbuckler\|92 Provisioner](Koada`Dal) Katherianna [92/286 Beserker\|92 Sage](Koada`Dal) Guildleader of The True Path - A roleplay-based guild (level 77) on Antonia Bayle

08-09-2007, 09:35 AM	#4
Istaril Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 147	Ok - let me rephrase. Those mobs where Involuntary Restoration is worth casting (and for those playstyles), Supplicating fate is, as a general rule, a poor spell. (Ie - raid mobs or hard named) Those mobs where Supplicating fate is worth casting (and for those playstyles), Involuntary restoration is, as a general rule, worthless (Ie multi-mob encounters or fast-fast pulls). So why not merge the two, and not actually increase the power cost etc? The so called balance issues - well, to keep dps the same dependent/independent of procs only takes a short time - you're only dealing with the damge dealt by two spells being combined to result in the same average damage (vs non undead - hopefully more vs undead ) - not that tricky. As for combining symbol/gallantry having zero effect - I beg to differ. Sure, the effects would also be minor (for a templar), but there's still the odd situation where I'd rather have gallantry and an extra redoubt(or glory), or symbol and an extra redoubt(or glory). Another spell that we could get rid of/merge is to tie summoning rez-essences to another spell (like gallantry) - again to save us a cast (and help forgetful templars) - BUT this might cause some lag issues on dispelling mobs.

08-09-2007, 11:56 AM	#5
Mabes Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 376	I'm really not a fan of this whole concept, seems like just dumbing down the game, however I will reserve any criticisms until I see the actual changes once RoK comes out. But as far as changes, I can see all permanent group buffs being merged into one, and could see our debuffs being merged. As far as nukes being merged, well they've have to work the cast/recast timers around some, as currently while chain casting nukes, there's little down time, but if they merge them without reworking recast timers, there would be more downtime from having less nukes to use. As far as supplicating fate on raiding goes, yeah it's not that useful, except in fights that spawn low-hp adds (like Mayong). It's a group heal for 1400-something hp, and costs hardly any mana, and it did 21% of my total heals one Mayong fight where I wasn't in mt group. But yeah, other than a select few fights, it's not a useful raid spell. __________________ Tion - Templar \ Jeweler - Nektulos Varos - Assassin - Nektulos

08-09-2007, 12:01 PM	#6
dragontamer619 Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 152	I don't see DPS being that big of an issue if they combine our 2 smites. One does double damage to undead and the other has been changed a few times already. So in essence if you combine the 2 smites, it would deal double damage to any mob and triple damage to undead. (Which is essentially happens now if you cast them together) With Warring Axiom and Symbol of Corruption, if you combine the 2 they should take the DoT effect from Axiom and the debuff effect from Symbol of Corruption. As far as healing spells go, I feel the best thing they could do (if they do consolidate them) is put Supplicating Fate and Involuntary Restoration together. You'd have one spell that can proc a heal, proc a cure, and give a group cure at the end. That's the only one that makes logical sense to me. Another change I feel they could make and wouldn't hurt us too bad is making all of our cures into 1. So we'd have a cure all spell for single targets and our 1 group arcane/trauma cure. That'd free up 4 spots on my hot bar. My concern at the moment is how will these consolidations change our AA builds. If they combine our smites into 1 or 2 spells, and some Templars have points down the Smites AA line, what will become of those? __________________

08-09-2007, 08:15 AM	#1
Istaril Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 147	The title pretty much says it all - it appears Sony is consolidating certain spells. This isn't a post to discuss the reasons behind it, or whether less/more buttonmashing/choices is a good/bad thing. This is operating under the assumption that some spells WILL be consolidated - which, do we as templars, feel are best suited to the idea? I'd say : Add supplicating fate's heal to one of our other debuffs (Probably Involuntary Restoration, just based off the spell name). Supplicating fate is a spell used so rarely, but a templar-y idea - keep it and add it as a nice plus to a useful debuff. Make Smite and Holy Strike into one (Favouring Holy Smite). Adjust cast/recast accordingly. The two are used in conjunction anyway, have similar ideas, and one is just straight-up-damage with no flavour. Make warring axiom and bloodlines spell into one. They're both duration dots, and one is never used. Combine Daze and Stun into one, longer duration, control effect. They both serve the same purpose - and although the flexibility of putting two up on seperate targets is nice, it could be balanced by simply being better on one target. Or (pretty please) have some effect on epics. Add Blessings and Enduring Breath to other buffs, rather than making them stand alone. Possibly make our Master Strike simply be a (small) passive bonus to Holy strike against LnL targets. Combine Rezzes - make resurrect 75%, and on same timer as the other two single targets, reducing it's recast considerbly (but making it shorter recast out of combat). Keep group rez as-is. Possibly emergency reactives - make group upgrade to single (ie replaces it when you get it at level), and make it better than it currently is. (The above would shorten our spell list by a considerable 10, while only slightly harming our flexibility and saving us a fair bit of time/hotbar space) Some AA ability changes might be warranted - tying, say, INT2 as simply an added single-target damage bonus to a nuke, and wis2 as an enhancement to another, adding the shield ally ability to your stoneskin buff. The difficulty of course lies where Inquisitors and Templars have distinct skills - what would shield ally be added to for them, to avoid extra buffage? Would wis II similarily increase the equivalent nuke/ca? Changes to the buffs would have to involve changes to concentration slots (add more, but make spells cost 2 or 3?), and possibly the inclusion of raid-wide buffs. They could justify gallantry and symbol merging, they could justify holy redoubt/glory merging... but in so limiting our options for concentration slots, they'd have to be extremely careful to balance it. Temp buffs and debuffs could require concentration, if they are able to mess with the whole concentration system.

08-10-2007, 10:36 AM	#7
Jevangal Server: Splitpaw Guild: Nastrand Rank: The Big Cheese Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 114	dragontamer619 wrote: I don't see DPS being that big of an issue if they combine our 2 smites. One does double damage to undead and the other has been changed a few times already. So in essence if you combine the 2 smites, it would deal double damage to any mob and triple damage to undead. (Which is essentially happens now if you cast them together) With Warring Axiom and Symbol of Corruption, if you combine the 2 they should take the DoT effect from Axiom and the debuff effect from Symbol of Corruption. As far as healing spells go, I feel the best thing they could do (if they do consolidate them) is put Supplicating Fate and Involuntary Restoration together. You'd have one spell that can proc a heal, proc a cure, and give a group cure at the end. That's the only one that makes logical sense to me. Another change I feel they could make and wouldn't hurt us too bad is making all of our cures into 1. So we'd have a cure all spell for single targets and our 1 group arcane/trauma cure. That'd free up 4 spots on my hot bar. My concern at the moment is how will these consolidations change our AA builds. If they combine our smites into 1 or 2 spells, and some Templars have points down the Smites AA line, what will become of those? Combining the 2 smite spells would spoil solo play IMO. When soloing, I use those two spells in conjuncton with the heroic opportunity over and over again (with warring axiom and the odd hammer smite). It makes a nice difference to the fight. Supplicating fate is a life saver in a raid. After casting reactive heals on the MT, I get involuntary restoration, mark of the celestial and spurn on the mob as soon as I can. This gives me less to do in the fight and reduces the number of direct heals I need to cast (our casting and recovery speeds for direct heals is rather slow). Now, the duration of each of all 4 of these spells is 1 minute each. Because it can take 2 minutes or more to take down some epics, if the two spells were combined, then you just casted SF along with IR and consequently wasted some power (and probably casting time) that could have been better used in response to what was going on. Secondly, in a multi-mob encounter, if you can get supplicating fate on the mob at the right time, then the fact that it lasts for a full minute gives you time to cast it at a convenient point and then do other stuff. Thus, the tank gets a nice automatic heal, saving you from casting a direct heal and allowing you to get IR, MoC and spurn on the next mob as soon as possible, once again saving you from casting direct heals and also giving you the chance to respond to other things. I would hate to be forced into casting supplicating fate once or twice on the same mob. I have the same objection against consolidating the cures - it is highly likely they would increase the power cost and casting time of a universal cure spell. If the power cost was not increased, this would make it easier to play the templar, which would then reduce the challenge, thus decreasing the gap between a noob and a person who knows their templar well. I like to think I get invited to raids on merit, not because the game mechanics make my job ridiculously easy. So I would hate to see any of these changes - we are fine as we are.

08-10-2007, 10:51 AM	#8
Istaril Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 147	I can't see an issue with merging the two (Supplicating Fate and Involuntary Restoration) without touching power/cast time. As stated - the two are generally used in different circumstances, and adding one effect to the other wouldn't by any means be overpowered. Slight buff to the class, but as I assume we'll be taking slight nerfs in other places (like if they merge the two nukes - for HO purposes is a bit of a nerf). As for the cure system - I don't see how they can justify merging them. I mean - it can't just cure x levels of "something", because sometimes you need to cure arcane before trauma, etc. If it cures x levels of everything - abilities like ancient balm become entirely useless - and group cures become even more situational. In addition, they'd have to mess with recast / power costs, and could drastically alter one of the fundamental (if not most enjoyable) aspects of healing. I mean... it could be done, but they'd have to change some curing mechanics too. Merging the rezzes and making out of combat/in combat recasts different seems like a fix that could be applied to several classes - including stealthers with an out-of-combat fast cast stealth and an in combat slower cast stealth.

08-10-2007, 11:10 AM	#9
Jevangal Server: Splitpaw Guild: Nastrand Rank: The Big Cheese Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 114	If they didn't increase the power usage and casting time of a combined supplicating fate/involuntary restoration, then I can see an advantage from an efficiency point of view. For example: involuntary restoration has, say, 20 seconds to run, the epic is on about 10% health and there are no DOTs or debuffs on the tank - the epic is all but beaten so in goes supplicating fate. If they are both combined into one spell, then it would be no great inconvenience to simply cast the combined spell again. But do we really think the devs would give us such a gift without hitting us elsewhere? I would take leaving these spells as they are over a nerf elsewhere anyday.

08-18-2007, 10:55 AM	#10
Bjerde Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 412	Istaril wrote: Ok - let me rephrase. Those mobs where Involuntary Restoration is worth casting (and for those playstyles), Supplicating fate is, as a general rule, a poor spell. (Ie - raid mobs or hard named) Those mobs where Supplicating fate is worth casting (and for those playstyles), Involuntary restoration is, as a general rule, worthless (Ie multi-mob encounters or fast-fast pulls). This is exactly why these two spells cannot be merged. They are typically used in opposite situations. If you have grp mobs, you will cast Supplicating Fate to get a 'free' group heal on the group mid-fight (ie - Lyceum mobs) and you cast this near the end of the mobs life. Involuntary Restoration is the first debuff I cast because it is so good. This makes more sense on mobs that have a few more hp and will take advantage of the heal proc by staying alive for awhile. Merge Spurn and Involuntary together if anything, those are the first two debuffs you should be casting. Shoot merge Mark in there too. All three should be on right away. Supplicating Fate is the only debuff that is used differently, so it cannot be combined. I really don't want these changes to go live, spell consolidation is ridiculous and not needed but I also don't want them to bork it, if they do try it. __________________ Everfrost.Wikkan - Battlegrounds

08-18-2007, 11:09 AM	#11
Kizee Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,093	Supplicating Fate is probally the best spell tempars get...for exp group AND raids. People that say it is useless in raids have not killed any of the raid mobs that spawn alot of adds. When I am in OT group I can keep the group alive just on this spell alone while remaining at full power the whole fight. I don't know how people can say a 1500 point group heal for 85 power is useless.