Dumbing down the game yet again IMO

Travelin'Man · 10-27-2005, 08:14 PM

It seems SOE is dumbing down the game yet again...

Harvesting from tier 1 to 2 used to be 40. Players worked to hit that lvl and moved on...they drop it to 20 to make it easier

Heritages we all worked hard for, hated the evercamps, got the heritages....now lets make it easier for everyone else

You want a fast, guild lvl 30 mount? Work your but off harvesting, crafting, selling, raiding, whatever and save the money to buy it...then watch sony drop the price on it so more can get it with a lot less work.

Just 3 examples...there are more, but I can't think of them right now. All the higher lvl players that met the requirements to achieve certain things and were rewarded with them must feel slighted that now more can get the same with a lot less work at it...

I figure I will get one starred for this, but no matter...lol

JuJut · 10-27-2005, 08:17 PM

Yawn. Here's your star.

Ranja · 10-27-2005, 08:22 PM

Bitterness is never recieved well.

IBTL:smileyvery-happy:

EtoilePirate · 10-27-2005, 08:22 PM

I've done something like 14 Heritage Quests so far, and I have 8 open, and nearly all of the ones I've finished or have open are on that list. And you know what? I think it's about time. I'm not jealous that the next player will have it easier. Some heritages are a god-awful, hideous slog, and there's no "dumbing down" in, say, making a mob actually spawn. That doesn't make it easier to kill and that doesn't change the number of steps involved. It just means that you can actually complete a step when you're finally on it. I tend to let Heritage Quests sit in my journal for 4-6 MONTHS because of how hard it can be to find a mob you need to kill, for some of them. I don't have the kind of time needed to camp a mob for days. So I'm glad they made this change, for everyone's sake. Camping = not fun.

Aera · 10-27-2005, 08:27 PM

Travelin'Man wrote:
~~Heritages we all worked hard for, hated the evercamps, got the heritages~~....now lets make it easier for everyone else

Yes, let's make it easier. THANK YOU GOD

Kenazeer · 10-27-2005, 08:30 PM

Travelin'Man wrote:

It seems SOE is dumbing down the game yet again...

Harvesting from tier 1 to 2 used to be 40. Players worked to hit that lvl and moved on...they drop it to 20 to make it easier

Heritages we all worked hard for, hated the evercamps, got the heritages....now lets make it easier for everyone else

You want a fast, guild lvl 30 mount? Work your but off harvesting, crafting, selling, raiding, whatever and save the money to buy it...then watch sony drop the price on it so more can get it with a lot less work.

Just 3 examples...there are more, but I can't think of them right now. All the higher lvl players that met the requirements to achieve certain things and were rewarded with them must feel slighted that now more can get the same with a lot less work at it...

I figure I will get one starred for this, but no matter...lol

I for one don't feel slighted. I measure my happiness and sense of accomplishment against the goals I set and achieve for myself.

Whether I have item X and player A doesn't plays no part in me feeling good about myself.

Mordith · 10-27-2005, 08:36 PM

Thank god they finally changed some of the bottle necks and useless camps. Now I may actually go back and finish some of the hq's I have sitting around in my journal. As has been said repeatedly on these boards Tedium /= Challenge, rather Tedium = Boredom.

kr8ztwin · 10-27-2005, 08:37 PM

I agree with the OP. I think people that exploited early or play 40 hrs per week should all reep the rewards and shove them in our faces daily heh.

Sarcasm Off.

You had the experience of accomplishing something grand. When you got your carpet or finished that impossible HQ weren't you just off the walls excited? Why not hold on to that? If things are easier that just means the new ppl will never experience that level of enjoyment and excitement in doing the same things you've done. Don't get angry....pity us! You know, I wish I could spend 1 month trying to get a mob to spawn. I wish I could find a profitable loophole and be able to buy a 60p carpet early in-game. I wish I had run bots so I could wake up and have 20 rares waiting for me. Oh the things I could have done lol.

Sarcasm Off.

Holy hell my sarcasm toggle seems to be broken. Well better On than Off.....least thats what mom always said. :smileyvery-happy:

ValdacilFelagund · 10-27-2005, 09:52 PM

I totally agree that some things about heritages needed to be change. Some of these steps were horrible. As a previous poster said: Camping /= Fun or Challenge. Sitting there slaughtering PH's over and over because you just didn't hit the 5% spawn time on a certain mob isn't fun (cough... The Creator... cough). But at least he HAD PH's... There were sooo many mobs that you could just run around in their spawn areas with no PH's to kill just crossing your fingers that they would spawn in your lifetime (cough... half of the mobs needed for RotL... cough). And lets forget a second about the "camping is not fun" side of things. Do people think that just because they are the uber-I-raid-12-hours-a-day-and-have-no-other-life-than-Everquest2 group that everyone else who plays is? Some people don't have 6 consecutive hours to camp a mob. Some people are lucky to get in 2 consecutive hours in one sitting... if that. So just because they have other things going on and don't live in the game should they be excluded from doing some of these quests all together. Shouldn't 20 hours of play time spread over the course of a month or two be able to accomplish the same thing as someone who puts in 20 hours in 2 days? Again, lets remember that this is a GAME and supposed to be a fun diversion from RL. Camping does not add challenge, it creates boredom. Boredom creates canceled accounts. Canceled accounts creates less revenue for Sony. This change is a good change for them and it's a good change for all of us. Whether you are helping someone else complete a quest you've already done or going through it again w/ a new alt... this change is a good thing and long overdue.

Ironmeow · 10-27-2005, 10:06 PM

i agree with the changes, HQ's are long enough no point in putting 5 hr spawns on them its hard enough getting a group to do them.

beylanu · 10-27-2005, 10:09 PM

lesser camp times, more chances for the quest mobs to spawn are GOOD THINGS! Thank you SOE!!I even disagree with the OP's title. Camping longer for a mob, isn't "smarting" up a game. In fact, I think the very act of sitting around killing PH's or simply waiting for a MOB to spawn in a game, has got to be one of the dumbest things you can do(which is why those quests simply stay undone in my journal). Removing camps would be actually smarting up the game for me. If you really want challenge, make named mobs(the ones needed for the HQ's) smart! Here's an idea:1. make them triggerable(by a side quest or something) but once they appear, they con the group. If any member in the group cons higher than the named mob, that member gets a "free" evac, ala nagafen or vox of eq1, and the mob proceeds to engage the remaining members of the group. That way mobs can't be trivialized by inviting higher level folks. Or have the mob evac/escape if a person in the group cons higher than the mob.2. make encounters with these mobs auto-lock, so no outsiders can help.3. give them evac/escape ability, but give players a method of stunning them.4. just make them plain HARD!! equivalent to quadruple-arrow mobs, with additional special abilities.5. make the mobs autoengage the group that triggers them

Number 1 might require some work, but the gist is there. Whatever they choose to do, make combat the challenge. Not the waiting.

Message Edited by beylanu on 10-27-2005 11:49 AM

Sarc · 10-27-2005, 10:35 PM

Travelin'Man wrote:

It seems SOE is dumbing down the game yet again...

Harvesting from tier 1 to 2 used to be 40. Players worked to hit that lvl and moved on...they drop it to 20 to make it easier

Heritages we all worked hard for, hated the evercamps, got the heritages....now lets make it easier for everyone else

You want a fast, guild lvl 30 mount? Work your but off harvesting, crafting, selling, raiding, whatever and save the money to buy it...then watch sony drop the price on it so more can get it with a lot less work.

Just 3 examples...there are more, but I can't think of them right now. All the higher lvl players that met the requirements to achieve certain things and were rewarded with them must feel slighted that now more can get the same with a lot less work at it...

I figure I will get one starred for this, but no matter...lol

This is a good thing. So get over it.

FlyByeT · 10-27-2005, 11:16 PM

Easier? What is hard about wating 4 hours for the captains to spawn? 4 Hours? With 5 other people? 4 Hours? There is nothing hard about that. There is no sense of acheivement. There is only relief. Like when a laxative starts working. If a game has to artificially create a sense of acheivement because you have to stand around for four hours to kill a grey, then something is just not right. They are dumbing down the game? They are helping to alleviate 6 toons standing in one place for 4 hours, doing nothing, at all, not a thing. You ask me sony is smartening the game with reducing camp times. I think what would be cool is if they made the spawns tougher or more questy. Actually test the heritages with the desired level and a 3-4 toon group and make them do a bunch of things to spawn the mob. Make it hard, make it tough, make it challenging, make it fun. But don't make me fall asleep for 4 hours...or six...or 20 over two days....

Badtidings · 10-28-2005, 12:32 AM

--Yeah. That's what they're doing. Dumbing it down. Just like they did with life. Why, when I first started playing life, if you wanted to quest for KISS' 'Rock-n-Roll All Nite' you had to acquire a ride, cross like twenty zones, look out for aggro from insane drivers, and then pay hard earned money for the ENTIRE ALBUMN just to listen to that one song. Nowadays kids just steal it off the internet. Totally invalidates all the effort I had to put in to getting that song. It's like a slap in the face for all my hard work.
--And cars! It used to be when you went down the road YOU COULD DIE! Gas tanks installed in insane places, no power steering, no anti-lock brakes, tires made without steel belts. But we liked it that way. There was supposed to be danger. Now, though, it seems like any idiot can get from point at to point b safely. What's up with that?
--Sure, people try to tell me it's 'progress' and that things just naturally tend to get easier as we learn from our mistakes and try to make things better, but I know that it was all just a plot to "dumb-down" life.

Rijacki · 10-28-2005, 12:44 AM

Valdacil wrote:Some people don't have 6 consecutive hours to camp a mob. Some people are lucky to get in 2 consecutive hours in one sitting... if that. So just because they have other things going on and don't live in the game should they be excluded from doing some of these quests all together. Shouldn't 20 hours of play time spread over the course of a month or two be able to accomplish the same thing as someone who puts in 20 hours in 2 days?

Very well said. It's not that those who play more "casually" (i.e. less time each session for what ever reason) want things handed to them on a platter, it's that 30 hours in 2 days shouldn't be more rewarding than 30 hours spread over a couple months. Doing things in small increments should be just as possible as doing things all at once. -Some- longer things (like 3 to 5 hours of a constant pace of stuff.. like a raid) is good, but having -everything- require huge amounts of time to stand around and wait..... nah, not good. Heck... if you want to look at the economics of it, the person paying for 30 hours in 2 months is actually paying SOE -more- to play the game than someone who puts in 30 hours in just 2 days.

Screamin' 1 · 10-28-2005, 01:19 AM

Kenazeer wrote:

Travelin'Man wrote:
It seems SOE is dumbing down the game yet again...
... Heritages we all worked hard for, hated the evercamps, got the heritages....now lets make it easier for everyone else

...

I for one don't feel slighted. I measure my happiness and sense of accomplishment against the goals I set and achieve for myself.

Whether I have item X and player A doesn't plays no part in me feeling good about myself.

Well said Kanazeer. I cannot think of one person I know who was happy to camp all of those mobs for HQs. We all complained at the time. So, it makes little sense to want others to continue to suffer instead of being happy it will be better for them. We still have bragging rights. In fact, those who have already done the HQs in the old style have bragging rights that will no longer be available: "Yeah, Sonny, I remember camping Ole Bloodtalon. We had to walk from Thundermist Village to the Centaur Fields, in the snow, uphill (both ways) and then wait for hours just to get a glimpse of the brute. Of course, when he popped on us, we had been waiting so long, we were numb, our buffs were not up, and our 'Zerker Bloffo was of behind a tree answering nature's summons, so we almost did not survive. Yeah, those were the days."

Travelin'Man · 10-28-2005, 01:29 AM

Heh..I knew that would elicit a stream of comments...

I agree not having to camp for hours or days on end is a good thing. I also agree with the posters that said make them hard to finish. The heritages are accomplishments, sort of like a lower level prismatic quest. Don't just lower the requirements, but make them a challenge still.

One thing I would like to see is a change to the guild leveling requirements. It is near impossible to get a mid sized guild to lvl 30 to qualify for the now cheaper mount!

Barramundi · 10-28-2005, 05:07 AM

I have already completed most of the Heritage Quests and agree that they should be changed to make them "easier". I don't mean that the required mobs should be easy to kill, they should still require full groups or a raid force to complete, but extended camping for mobs should( and it looks like it is going to) be changed. Now, when someone asks for help with a stage of some HQ's people are turned off helping because it might involve hours of waiting with no guarantee that the mob will spawn. The game could be more social if a cry of "I need help with such and such mob for this HQ" is meet with "I'll be right there".

Styk · 10-28-2005, 08:05 AM

This is one of the reasons why im going to vanguard when it goes live, i for one like a challange, and when a game becomes easier and easier it become less and less exciting for me... Sure SoE has me as a customer for now and i prolly will buy 1 more expansion etc etc, im bidding my time thou.... remember beta 1 is out for vanguard 2 more betas to go

Feaw · 10-28-2005, 10:08 AM

I think games are more fun when the frustration factor doesnt over shadow the fun factor.

Speak · 10-28-2005, 08:18 PM

Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun". Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it.

Kenazeer · 10-28-2005, 08:39 PM

Speaker wrote:

Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun". Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it.

OMG [Removed for Content]......you don't play games to have "fun?" Isn't that "the good" that games are supposed to aim at? Seriously, if you need affirmation in life seek it out someplace else, not in a game. Go work at a homeless shelter, Habitat for Humanity, volunteer for church, or something else. Do something that a real living breathing human being can look at and say "Wow. Nice Job."

In my best Allen Iverson voice. "We talking bout Games.......I mean games."

Landiin · 10-28-2005, 08:51 PM

Kenazeer wrote:

Speaker wrote:

Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun". Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it.

OMG [Removed for Content]......you don't play games to have "fun?" Isn't that "the good" that games are supposed to aim at? Seriously, if you need affirmation in life seek it out someplace else, not in a game. Go work at a homeless shelter, Habitat for Humanity, volunteer for church, or something else. Do something that a real living breathing human being can look at and say "Wow. Nice Job."

In my best Allen Iverson voice. "We talking bout Games.......I mean games."

No some people don't like every thing handed to them on a silver platter. We like to earn things, go back to ur titty now..

Kenazeer · 10-28-2005, 09:14 PM

Landiin wrote:

Kenazeer wrote:

Speaker wrote:

Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun". Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it.

OMG [Removed for Content]......you don't play games to have "fun?" Isn't that "the good" that games are supposed to aim at? Seriously, if you need affirmation in life seek it out someplace else, not in a game. Go work at a homeless shelter, Habitat for Humanity, volunteer for church, or something else. Do something that a real living breathing human being can look at and say "Wow. Nice Job."

In my best Allen Iverson voice. "We talking bout Games.......I mean games."

No some people don't like every thing handed to them on a silver platter. We like to earn things, go back to ur titty now..

LOL, considering you dont even know me I would say that is an inappropriate and immature comment.

There is nothing stopping you from earning things and having fun at the same time. I just found it frigging hilarious that someone would think a game was ever designed to be anything BUT fun and provide enjoyment.

You think SoE wants you logging out every night going "OMG that sucked?" They design their game for the sole purpose of providing fun, and will makes changes, if needed, to retain players and make the game more "fun" for their target audience.

Speakers post was more "ranty." He/she could have conveyed the same message just as clearly by saying ....

"I receive most of my game enjoyment from the challenge and diffuculty in obtaining items, finishing quests, etc. With these most recent changes the diffuculty has been lowered and my enjoyment has gone down. If SoE continues on this path, and my enjoyment continues to decline, I will probably be moving on to other games that suit my playstyle better."

BTW.......Belittling, demeaning comments are the usually the product of a small mind.

bluestocking · 10-28-2005, 09:53 PM

Handing out HQs on a silver platter would be more along the lines of being handed them by the Landlord in the newbie quest as soon as we got to Freeport than reducing spawn times and taking some of the mindnumbing tedium out of the HQs.

People in my guild are actually talking about doing HQs again and coordinating efforts for when this goes live.

I agree with the poster that said that 30 hours effort over two months should be equivalent (more or less) to 30 hours effort over 2 days. People with real lives, careers and family commitments that play the game as a leisure activity shouldn't be penalized because they can't live on line for 20 hours a day.

Cuz · 10-28-2005, 10:05 PM

Landiin wrote:

Kenazeer wrote:

Speaker wrote:

Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun". Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it.

OMG [Removed for Content]......you don't play games to have "fun?" Isn't that "the good" that games are supposed to aim at? Seriously, if you need affirmation in life seek it out someplace else, not in a game. Go work at a homeless shelter, Habitat for Humanity, volunteer for church, or something else. Do something that a real living breathing human being can look at and say "Wow. Nice Job."

In my best Allen Iverson voice. "We talking bout Games.......I mean games."

No some people don't like every thing handed to them on a silver platter. We like to earn things, go back to ur titty now..

There's a fine line between feeling like you "earned" something and wanting to feel superior in game because it won't happen in real life.

Speak · 10-28-2005, 10:07 PM

Kenazeer

Very few games are built around fun. Most games are competitive in nature. Games are about outcomes, risk vs reward, winning or losing. Look at football, baseball, chess, poker, golf, the list is endless. Even children games, say a childs game as simple as musical chairs has a winner and losers.

My basic problem with SOE is they continue to lower the risk vs reward, and make the game easier. High end game components should only be obtained by the most skilled players not by the average player. And I am not just talking about causal lower time in game players vs high time players. The player who is willing to put the effort in for earning the 60-phat and 750K sp's high end speed buff deserves it more then player who is not willing to work for it. Frankly the game should be much harder with greater risk, death penalties should be much harsher, so people avoid death. But SOE is lost up with the idea that being best simply means who has the most paying customers, not who has the best game. So the SOE game plan to see how much more like WoW it can become hoping to draw off their customer base.

But back to the fun part. people play games to win....and that is what makes games enjoyable. You don't go out to play golf to lose, or poker to lose, or chess to lose. You play to win. And in most cases competitive games are best enjoyed when matched against another skillful player, or against a hard complex game. SOE for some of us is lowering the risk vs reward to a point where it becomes not worth the effort. Like I said above playing poker for match sticks or high stakes. Same game, same rules, but most people would rather win big bucks then a win bunch of wooden matchsticks. But to win the high stakes, you must risk real money. Eq-lite is becoming a game where you are betting matchstick and wiining dollars..... not fun.

Ildarus · 10-28-2005, 10:12 PM

Amen Brothers and Sisters. This change is has been a long time coming and will be will be loved by most.

For those of you who think Vangaurd is the answer, have you actually been reading the FAQ's of the game design. I read that they are going to avoid long camps and design quest mobs that don't require long wait times. Just because it's main designer is the original EQI designer doesn't mean he is making a newer version of EQI. He is designing a game that will make MONEY. You think Microsoft will let him make a game that will only draw a small percentage of the gaming population, think again. It is all about RL money SMILEY

Speak · 10-28-2005, 10:31 PM

Ildarus,

I agree on the long camping. I would rather have a much longer gaming path struggling to reach the final boss mob, rather then sitting in place waiting for a spawn on a timer. The appeal with Vangard is the game is geared towards harder game play, where skill is an important part of game play and if you screw up an die, you will pay a price for that mistake.

And yes, games are about money. The simple solution charge more for a smaller customer base. In the mid 80's I played Island of Kesami and Mega War III on compuserve. Cost to game back then was $ 6.35 hour and that meant paying $ 800 or more a month to play. And with IOK, high end hunting in lairs, you died to a dragon, and it was back to level one naked, and you just lost two to three thousand dollars in game play. Now that was risk. The cost of gaming has come down, and a good company with a smaller player base could make money at 100-200 a month per account and yes there would be demand. Does Mr.Softie expect to be the biggest or the best its hard to say. But I doubt Vangard will be anything like Eqlite or WoW.

YouNeedALi · 10-28-2005, 10:35 PM

This patch is great. And I wish they would "dumb down" the game even more. I play this game, as I hope most would, 100% for enjoyment. That I think was the err in the statement not everyone plays for fun. Every game, every sport is played for fun. But, it is all about what is fun for you. For me, fun is getting a group together, walking into CT (where no one is anymore), walking into the torturer's area and seeing him for once. For me, not fun is going there, killing enemies for 5 hours, seeing no spawn, and then saying to myself, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] did I just do with my only day off from work this week. And I can tell you something, the risk (5 hours of my life) is never going to equal the reward (an item in a video game). But, it will make me happy when I get the item, though now I am so annoyed with it that I can not properly enjoy it. It would have made me much happier the first time I was in there to have the torturer spawn within an hour of killing placeholders.

When you play sports, poker, or anything else you "play", I hope you are having fun. As a child, I played sports to have fun, hang with my friends. Yeah, it was great to beat the other team, win the championship, and when I lost a felt bad. But I never played a sport and then thought to myself "did I just waste 4 hours of my life?". But I can tell you, probably quite a few players of EQ2 who have thought that before, I had a bunch of buddies who played (most are gone now) and they felt that way on many occasions.

Now, I am not sure exactly how my completing a heritage personally affects anyone. That is what confuses me with people who feel cheated by this new patch. Especially if you are not on my server, what I do has no effect on you. I do not care if you get to point A first, kill Enemy B first, or get Super Item C first. in fact, on my server, I have no idea who the big guilds are, who the big time ubers are, and I do not care. I do care when they start whining about my game because to them it is too easy. I tell you what. You want a challenge, do my job for a living. I write programs all day, now that is a challenge. Sitting around killing enemies with little risk of death is not challenging. If you find video games as the ultimate challenge, try getting married (j/k) or having kids (not kidding). Now there is a challenge. Video Games = fun. That is why I design programs, to be fun and useful. I do not think who is going to be the best, I could care less. What I care is the customer is satisfied, cause that puts more money in my pocket.

10-27-2005, 08:22 PM	#3
Ranja Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,657	Bitterness is never recieved well. IBTL:smileyvery-happy: __________________ Elbryan, 90 Half-elf Ranger Thoghmor, 70 Troll Bruiser Rotir, 90 Dark Elf Swash Terrano, 82 Dark Elf Dirge Aymon, 90, Barbarian Shadowknight The Destroyer of Worlds: http://s7.gladiatus.com/game/c.php?uid=84341

10-27-2005, 08:22 PM	#4
EtoilePirate Tester Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,258	I've done something like 14 Heritage Quests so far, and I have 8 open, and nearly all of the ones I've finished or have open are on that list. And you know what? I think it's about time. I'm not jealous that the next player will have it easier. Some heritages are a god-awful, hideous slog, and there's no "dumbing down" in, say, making a mob actually spawn. That doesn't make it easier to kill and that doesn't change the number of steps involved. It just means that you can actually complete a step when you're finally on it. I tend to let Heritage Quests sit in my journal for 4-6 MONTHS because of how hard it can be to find a mob you need to kill, for some of them. I don't have the kind of time needed to camp a mob for days. So I'm glad they made this change, for everyone's sake. Camping = not fun. __________________ Kella The Mighty Pirate, Assassin & Tailor Nimari, Fury-at-Large Test Server

10-27-2005, 08:27 PM	#5
Aera Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: New Orleans Posts: 170	Travelin'Man wrote: ~~Heritages we all worked hard for, hated the evercamps, got the heritages~~....now lets make it easier for everyone else Yes, let's make it easier. THANK YOU GOD __________________

10-27-2005, 08:30 PM	#6
Kenazeer Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,178	Travelin'Man wrote: It seems SOE is dumbing down the game yet again... Harvesting from tier 1 to 2 used to be 40. Players worked to hit that lvl and moved on...they drop it to 20 to make it easier Heritages we all worked hard for, hated the evercamps, got the heritages....now lets make it easier for everyone else You want a fast, guild lvl 30 mount? Work your but off harvesting, crafting, selling, raiding, whatever and save the money to buy it...then watch sony drop the price on it so more can get it with a lot less work. Just 3 examples...there are more, but I can't think of them right now. All the higher lvl players that met the requirements to achieve certain things and were rewarded with them must feel slighted that now more can get the same with a lot less work at it... I figure I will get one starred for this, but no matter...lol I for one don't feel slighted. I measure my happiness and sense of accomplishment against the goals I set and achieve for myself. Whether I have item X and player A doesn't plays no part in me feeling good about myself. __________________ Come play EQ2...we have SOEmote, Dungeon Finder, and Dungeon Maker.

10-27-2005, 08:37 PM	#8
kr8ztwin Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 132	I agree with the OP. I think people that exploited early or play 40 hrs per week should all reep the rewards and shove them in our faces daily heh. Sarcasm Off. You had the experience of accomplishing something grand. When you got your carpet or finished that impossible HQ weren't you just off the walls excited? Why not hold on to that? If things are easier that just means the new ppl will never experience that level of enjoyment and excitement in doing the same things you've done. Don't get angry....pity us! You know, I wish I could spend 1 month trying to get a mob to spawn. I wish I could find a profitable loophole and be able to buy a 60p carpet early in-game. I wish I had run bots so I could wake up and have 20 rares waiting for me. Oh the things I could have done lol. Sarcasm Off. Sarcasm Off. Sarcasm Off. Holy hell my sarcasm toggle seems to be broken. Well better On than Off.....least thats what mom always said. :smileyvery-happy: __________________

10-27-2005, 08:14 PM	#1
Travelin'Man Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 23	It seems SOE is dumbing down the game yet again... Harvesting from tier 1 to 2 used to be 40. Players worked to hit that lvl and moved on...they drop it to 20 to make it easier Heritages we all worked hard for, hated the evercamps, got the heritages....now lets make it easier for everyone else You want a fast, guild lvl 30 mount? Work your but off harvesting, crafting, selling, raiding, whatever and save the money to buy it...then watch sony drop the price on it so more can get it with a lot less work. Just 3 examples...there are more, but I can't think of them right now. All the higher lvl players that met the requirements to achieve certain things and were rewarded with them must feel slighted that now more can get the same with a lot less work at it... I figure I will get one starred for this, but no matter...lol

10-27-2005, 08:17 PM	#2
JuJut Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 143	Yawn. Here's your star.

10-27-2005, 08:36 PM	#7
Mordith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 334	Thank god they finally changed some of the bottle necks and useless camps. Now I may actually go back and finish some of the hq's I have sitting around in my journal. As has been said repeatedly on these boards Tedium /= Challenge, rather Tedium = Boredom.

10-27-2005, 09:52 PM	#9
ValdacilFelagund Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 57	I totally agree that some things about heritages needed to be change. Some of these steps were horrible. As a previous poster said: Camping /= Fun or Challenge. Sitting there slaughtering PH's over and over because you just didn't hit the 5% spawn time on a certain mob isn't fun (cough... The Creator... cough). But at least he HAD PH's... There were sooo many mobs that you could just run around in their spawn areas with no PH's to kill just crossing your fingers that they would spawn in your lifetime (cough... half of the mobs needed for RotL... cough). And lets forget a second about the "camping is not fun" side of things. Do people think that just because they are the uber-I-raid-12-hours-a-day-and-have-no-other-life-than-Everquest2 group that everyone else who plays is? Some people don't have 6 consecutive hours to camp a mob. Some people are lucky to get in 2 consecutive hours in one sitting... if that. So just because they have other things going on and don't live in the game should they be excluded from doing some of these quests all together. Shouldn't 20 hours of play time spread over the course of a month or two be able to accomplish the same thing as someone who puts in 20 hours in 2 days? Again, lets remember that this is a GAME and supposed to be a fun diversion from RL. Camping does not add challenge, it creates boredom. Boredom creates canceled accounts. Canceled accounts creates less revenue for Sony. This change is a good change for them and it's a good change for all of us. Whether you are helping someone else complete a quest you've already done or going through it again w/ a new alt... this change is a good thing and long overdue.

10-27-2005, 10:06 PM	#10
Ironmeow Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 175	i agree with the changes, HQ's are long enough no point in putting 5 hr spawns on them its hard enough getting a group to do them.

10-27-2005, 10:09 PM	#11
beylanu Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 75	lesser camp times, more chances for the quest mobs to spawn are GOOD THINGS! Thank you SOE!!I even disagree with the OP's title. Camping longer for a mob, isn't "smarting" up a game. In fact, I think the very act of sitting around killing PH's or simply waiting for a MOB to spawn in a game, has got to be one of the dumbest things you can do(which is why those quests simply stay undone in my journal). Removing camps would be actually smarting up the game for me. If you really want challenge, make named mobs(the ones needed for the HQ's) smart! Here's an idea:1. make them triggerable(by a side quest or something) but once they appear, they con the group. If any member in the group cons higher than the named mob, that member gets a "free" evac, ala nagafen or vox of eq1, and the mob proceeds to engage the remaining members of the group. That way mobs can't be trivialized by inviting higher level folks. Or have the mob evac/escape if a person in the group cons higher than the mob.2. make encounters with these mobs auto-lock, so no outsiders can help.3. give them evac/escape ability, but give players a method of stunning them.4. just make them plain HARD!! equivalent to quadruple-arrow mobs, with additional special abilities.5. make the mobs autoengage the group that triggers them Number 1 might require some work, but the gist is there. Whatever they choose to do, make combat the challenge. Not the waiting. Message Edited by beylanu on 10-27-2005 11:49 AM

10-27-2005, 10:35 PM	#12
Sarc Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 5	Travelin'Man wrote: It seems SOE is dumbing down the game yet again... Harvesting from tier 1 to 2 used to be 40. Players worked to hit that lvl and moved on...they drop it to 20 to make it easier Heritages we all worked hard for, hated the evercamps, got the heritages....now lets make it easier for everyone else You want a fast, guild lvl 30 mount? Work your but off harvesting, crafting, selling, raiding, whatever and save the money to buy it...then watch sony drop the price on it so more can get it with a lot less work. Just 3 examples...there are more, but I can't think of them right now. All the higher lvl players that met the requirements to achieve certain things and were rewarded with them must feel slighted that now more can get the same with a lot less work at it... I figure I will get one starred for this, but no matter...lol This is a good thing. So get over it. __________________ Life is short.Live it up. Mellowcat the level 41 kerra wizard steamfont

10-27-2005, 11:16 PM	#13
FlyByeT Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 14	Easier? What is hard about wating 4 hours for the captains to spawn? 4 Hours? With 5 other people? 4 Hours? There is nothing hard about that. There is no sense of acheivement. There is only relief. Like when a laxative starts working. If a game has to artificially create a sense of acheivement because you have to stand around for four hours to kill a grey, then something is just not right. They are dumbing down the game? They are helping to alleviate 6 toons standing in one place for 4 hours, doing nothing, at all, not a thing. You ask me sony is smartening the game with reducing camp times. I think what would be cool is if they made the spawns tougher or more questy. Actually test the heritages with the desired level and a 3-4 toon group and make them do a bunch of things to spawn the mob. Make it hard, make it tough, make it challenging, make it fun. But don't make me fall asleep for 4 hours...or six...or 20 over two days....

10-28-2005, 12:32 AM	#14
Badtidings Tester Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 98	--Yeah. That's what they're doing. Dumbing it down. Just like they did with life. Why, when I first started playing life, if you wanted to quest for KISS' 'Rock-n-Roll All Nite' you had to acquire a ride, cross like twenty zones, look out for aggro from insane drivers, and then pay hard earned money for the ENTIRE ALBUMN just to listen to that one song. Nowadays kids just steal it off the internet. Totally invalidates all the effort I had to put in to getting that song. It's like a slap in the face for all my hard work. --And cars! It used to be when you went down the road YOU COULD DIE! Gas tanks installed in insane places, no power steering, no anti-lock brakes, tires made without steel belts. But we liked it that way. There was supposed to be danger. Now, though, it seems like any idiot can get from point at to point b safely. What's up with that? --Sure, people try to tell me it's 'progress' and that things just naturally tend to get easier as we learn from our mistakes and try to make things better, but I know that it was all just a plot to "dumb-down" life.

10-28-2005, 12:44 AM	#15
Rijacki Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,842	Valdacil wrote:Some people don't have 6 consecutive hours to camp a mob. Some people are lucky to get in 2 consecutive hours in one sitting... if that. So just because they have other things going on and don't live in the game should they be excluded from doing some of these quests all together. Shouldn't 20 hours of play time spread over the course of a month or two be able to accomplish the same thing as someone who puts in 20 hours in 2 days? Very well said. It's not that those who play more "casually" (i.e. less time each session for what ever reason) want things handed to them on a platter, it's that 30 hours in 2 days shouldn't be more rewarding than 30 hours spread over a couple months. Doing things in small increments should be just as possible as doing things all at once. -Some- longer things (like 3 to 5 hours of a constant pace of stuff.. like a raid) is good, but having -everything- require huge amounts of time to stand around and wait..... nah, not good. Heck... if you want to look at the economics of it, the person paying for 30 hours in 2 months is actually paying SOE -more- to play the game than someone who puts in 30 hours in just 2 days. __________________

10-28-2005, 01:19 AM	#16
Screamin' 1 Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 98	Kenazeer wrote: Travelin'Man wrote: It seems SOE is dumbing down the game yet again... ... Heritages we all worked hard for, hated the evercamps, got the heritages....now lets make it easier for everyone else ... I for one don't feel slighted. I measure my happiness and sense of accomplishment against the goals I set and achieve for myself. Whether I have item X and player A doesn't plays no part in me feeling good about myself. Well said Kanazeer. I cannot think of one person I know who was happy to camp all of those mobs for HQs. We all complained at the time. So, it makes little sense to want others to continue to suffer instead of being happy it will be better for them. We still have bragging rights. In fact, those who have already done the HQs in the old style have bragging rights that will no longer be available: "Yeah, Sonny, I remember camping Ole Bloodtalon. We had to walk from Thundermist Village to the Centaur Fields, in the snow, uphill (both ways) and then wait for hours just to get a glimpse of the brute. Of course, when he popped on us, we had been waiting so long, we were numb, our buffs were not up, and our 'Zerker Bloffo was of behind a tree answering nature's summons, so we almost did not survive. Yeah, those were the days."

10-28-2005, 01:29 AM	#17
Travelin'Man Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 23	Heh..I knew that would elicit a stream of comments... I agree not having to camp for hours or days on end is a good thing. I also agree with the posters that said make them hard to finish. The heritages are accomplishments, sort of like a lower level prismatic quest. Don't just lower the requirements, but make them a challenge still. One thing I would like to see is a change to the guild leveling requirements. It is near impossible to get a mid sized guild to lvl 30 to qualify for the now cheaper mount!

10-28-2005, 05:07 AM	#18
Barramundi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 21	I have already completed most of the Heritage Quests and agree that they should be changed to make them "easier". I don't mean that the required mobs should be easy to kill, they should still require full groups or a raid force to complete, but extended camping for mobs should( and it looks like it is going to) be changed. Now, when someone asks for help with a stage of some HQ's people are turned off helping because it might involve hours of waiting with no guarantee that the mob will spawn. The game could be more social if a cry of "I need help with such and such mob for this HQ" is meet with "I'll be right there".

10-28-2005, 08:05 AM	#19
Styk Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Diego,CA Posts: 559	This is one of the reasons why im going to vanguard when it goes live, i for one like a challange, and when a game becomes easier and easier it become less and less exciting for me... Sure SoE has me as a customer for now and i prolly will buy 1 more expansion etc etc, im bidding my time thou.... remember beta 1 is out for vanguard 2 more betas to go __________________ Zesstra - 70 Warlock Halcyon Affinity - Antonia Bayle

10-28-2005, 10:08 AM	#20
Feaw Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 199	I think games are more fun when the frustration factor doesnt over shadow the fun factor. __________________ [ insert Feawin's cool sig here ] ask for fixes not nerfs

10-28-2005, 08:18 PM	#21
Speak Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 92	Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun". Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it.

10-28-2005, 08:39 PM	#22
Kenazeer Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,178	Speaker wrote: Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun". Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it. OMG [Removed for Content]......you don't play games to have "fun?" Isn't that "the good" that games are supposed to aim at? Seriously, if you need affirmation in life seek it out someplace else, not in a game. Go work at a homeless shelter, Habitat for Humanity, volunteer for church, or something else. Do something that a real living breathing human being can look at and say "Wow. Nice Job." In my best Allen Iverson voice. "We talking bout Games.......I mean games." __________________ Come play EQ2...we have SOEmote, Dungeon Finder, and Dungeon Maker.

10-28-2005, 08:51 PM	#23
Landiin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,749	Kenazeer wrote: Speaker wrote: Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun". Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it. OMG [Removed for Content]......you don't play games to have "fun?" Isn't that "the good" that games are supposed to aim at? Seriously, if you need affirmation in life seek it out someplace else, not in a game. Go work at a homeless shelter, Habitat for Humanity, volunteer for church, or something else. Do something that a real living breathing human being can look at and say "Wow. Nice Job." In my best Allen Iverson voice. "We talking bout Games.......I mean games." No some people don't like every thing handed to them on a silver platter. We like to earn things, go back to ur titty now.. __________________

10-28-2005, 09:14 PM	#24
Kenazeer Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,178	Landiin wrote: Kenazeer wrote: Speaker wrote: Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun". Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it. OMG [Removed for Content]......you don't play games to have "fun?" Isn't that "the good" that games are supposed to aim at? Seriously, if you need affirmation in life seek it out someplace else, not in a game. Go work at a homeless shelter, Habitat for Humanity, volunteer for church, or something else. Do something that a real living breathing human being can look at and say "Wow. Nice Job." In my best Allen Iverson voice. "We talking bout Games.......I mean games." No some people don't like every thing handed to them on a silver platter. We like to earn things, go back to ur titty now.. LOL, considering you dont even know me I would say that is an inappropriate and immature comment. There is nothing stopping you from earning things and having fun at the same time. I just found it frigging hilarious that someone would think a game was ever designed to be anything BUT fun and provide enjoyment. You think SoE wants you logging out every night going "OMG that sucked?" They design their game for the sole purpose of providing fun, and will makes changes, if needed, to retain players and make the game more "fun" for their target audience. Speakers post was more "ranty." He/she could have conveyed the same message just as clearly by saying .... "I receive most of my game enjoyment from the challenge and diffuculty in obtaining items, finishing quests, etc. With these most recent changes the diffuculty has been lowered and my enjoyment has gone down. If SoE continues on this path, and my enjoyment continues to decline, I will probably be moving on to other games that suit my playstyle better." BTW.......Belittling, demeaning comments are the usually the product of a small mind. __________________ Come play EQ2...we have SOEmote, Dungeon Finder, and Dungeon Maker.

10-28-2005, 09:53 PM	#25
bluestocking Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 33	Handing out HQs on a silver platter would be more along the lines of being handed them by the Landlord in the newbie quest as soon as we got to Freeport than reducing spawn times and taking some of the mindnumbing tedium out of the HQs. People in my guild are actually talking about doing HQs again and coordinating efforts for when this goes live. I agree with the poster that said that 30 hours effort over two months should be equivalent (more or less) to 30 hours effort over 2 days. People with real lives, careers and family commitments that play the game as a leisure activity shouldn't be penalized because they can't live on line for 20 hours a day. __________________ Countess Zillanor De'Carabas 80 Necromancer/80 Sage Darianne Bitterwood 74 Fury/50 Provisioner Blind Guardians Everfrost

10-28-2005, 10:05 PM	#26
Cuz Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 825	Landiin wrote: Kenazeer wrote: Speaker wrote: Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun". Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it. OMG [Removed for Content]......you don't play games to have "fun?" Isn't that "the good" that games are supposed to aim at? Seriously, if you need affirmation in life seek it out someplace else, not in a game. Go work at a homeless shelter, Habitat for Humanity, volunteer for church, or something else. Do something that a real living breathing human being can look at and say "Wow. Nice Job." In my best Allen Iverson voice. "We talking bout Games.......I mean games." No some people don't like every thing handed to them on a silver platter. We like to earn things, go back to ur titty now.. There's a fine line between feeling like you "earned" something and wanting to feel superior in game because it won't happen in real life. __________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ one immature posted ------------------------------------------------------------

10-28-2005, 10:07 PM	#27
Speak Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 92	Kenazeer Very few games are built around fun. Most games are competitive in nature. Games are about outcomes, risk vs reward, winning or losing. Look at football, baseball, chess, poker, golf, the list is endless. Even children games, say a childs game as simple as musical chairs has a winner and losers. My basic problem with SOE is they continue to lower the risk vs reward, and make the game easier. High end game components should only be obtained by the most skilled players not by the average player. And I am not just talking about causal lower time in game players vs high time players. The player who is willing to put the effort in for earning the 60-phat and 750K sp's high end speed buff deserves it more then player who is not willing to work for it. Frankly the game should be much harder with greater risk, death penalties should be much harsher, so people avoid death. But SOE is lost up with the idea that being best simply means who has the most paying customers, not who has the best game. So the SOE game plan to see how much more like WoW it can become hoping to draw off their customer base. But back to the fun part. people play games to win....and that is what makes games enjoyable. You don't go out to play golf to lose, or poker to lose, or chess to lose. You play to win. And in most cases competitive games are best enjoyed when matched against another skillful player, or against a hard complex game. SOE for some of us is lowering the risk vs reward to a point where it becomes not worth the effort. Like I said above playing poker for match sticks or high stakes. Same game, same rules, but most people would rather win big bucks then a win bunch of wooden matchsticks. But to win the high stakes, you must risk real money. Eq-lite is becoming a game where you are betting matchstick and wiining dollars..... not fun.

10-28-2005, 10:12 PM	#28
Ildarus Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: MPLS, MN Posts: 221	Amen Brothers and Sisters. This change is has been a long time coming and will be will be loved by most. For those of you who think Vangaurd is the answer, have you actually been reading the FAQ's of the game design. I read that they are going to avoid long camps and design quest mobs that don't require long wait times. Just because it's main designer is the original EQI designer doesn't mean he is making a newer version of EQI. He is designing a game that will make MONEY. You think Microsoft will let him make a game that will only draw a small percentage of the gaming population, think again. It is all about RL money __________________ Lord Sarron-Level 80 Swashbuckler Serpaw-Level 74 Berserker Simbarth-Level 22 Shadowknight/76 Alchemist

10-28-2005, 10:31 PM	#29
Speak Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 92	Ildarus, I agree on the long camping. I would rather have a much longer gaming path struggling to reach the final boss mob, rather then sitting in place waiting for a spawn on a timer. The appeal with Vangard is the game is geared towards harder game play, where skill is an important part of game play and if you screw up an die, you will pay a price for that mistake. And yes, games are about money. The simple solution charge more for a smaller customer base. In the mid 80's I played Island of Kesami and Mega War III on compuserve. Cost to game back then was $ 6.35 hour and that meant paying $ 800 or more a month to play. And with IOK, high end hunting in lairs, you died to a dragon, and it was back to level one naked, and you just lost two to three thousand dollars in game play. Now that was risk. The cost of gaming has come down, and a good company with a smaller player base could make money at 100-200 a month per account and yes there would be demand. Does Mr.Softie expect to be the biggest or the best its hard to say. But I doubt Vangard will be anything like Eqlite or WoW.

10-28-2005, 10:35 PM	#30
YouNeedALi Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2	This patch is great. And I wish they would "dumb down" the game even more. I play this game, as I hope most would, 100% for enjoyment. That I think was the err in the statement not everyone plays for fun. Every game, every sport is played for fun. But, it is all about what is fun for you. For me, fun is getting a group together, walking into CT (where no one is anymore), walking into the torturer's area and seeing him for once. For me, not fun is going there, killing enemies for 5 hours, seeing no spawn, and then saying to myself, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] did I just do with my only day off from work this week. And I can tell you something, the risk (5 hours of my life) is never going to equal the reward (an item in a video game). But, it will make me happy when I get the item, though now I am so annoyed with it that I can not properly enjoy it. It would have made me much happier the first time I was in there to have the torturer spawn within an hour of killing placeholders. When you play sports, poker, or anything else you "play", I hope you are having fun. As a child, I played sports to have fun, hang with my friends. Yeah, it was great to beat the other team, win the championship, and when I lost a felt bad. But I never played a sport and then thought to myself "did I just waste 4 hours of my life?". But I can tell you, probably quite a few players of EQ2 who have thought that before, I had a bunch of buddies who played (most are gone now) and they felt that way on many occasions. Now, I am not sure exactly how my completing a heritage personally affects anyone. That is what confuses me with people who feel cheated by this new patch. Especially if you are not on my server, what I do has no effect on you. I do not care if you get to point A first, kill Enemy B first, or get Super Item C first. in fact, on my server, I have no idea who the big guilds are, who the big time ubers are, and I do not care. I do care when they start whining about my game because to them it is too easy. I tell you what. You want a challenge, do my job for a living. I write programs all day, now that is a challenge. Sitting around killing enemies with little risk of death is not challenging. If you find video games as the ultimate challenge, try getting married (j/k) or having kids (not kidding). Now there is a challenge. Video Games = fun. That is why I design programs, to be fun and useful. I do not think who is going to be the best, I could care less. What I care is the customer is satisfied, cause that puts more money in my pocket.