Ranger class rapidly losing it's flavor?

TwistedFaith · 06-13-2006, 05:04 PM

Anyone else feel that the ranger class is getting more and more away from feeling like playing a actual ranger.With the upcomming nerfs, we are in my opinion becoming simply wizards in chainmail. There doesnt seem anything rangeresque about the class anymore, the nerfs are just eroding the fun factor from the class.I'm waiting for the final nail in the coffin and fully expect to see amazing shot nerfed in some way or another (distance most probably).I know a few other rangers disagree but I still believe PVP has been the death of this class and will continue to effect PVE rangers.I finally hit my 50th AA last night and think it's time to retire my ranger. He's got all adept3/masters and lots of relic but he just doesnt feel like the ranger I used to love playing when the game first came out.

Teksun · 06-13-2006, 05:45 PM

valleyboy1 wrote:Anyone else feel that the ranger class is getting more and more away from feeling like playing a actual ranger.Yes, but I still think quite a few of us will stick it out. A LOT of the Rangers were created when we were kings of the hill. Now a lot will go on the shelf until something changesWith the upcomming nerfs, we are in my opinion becoming simply wizards in chainmail. There doesnt seem anything rangeresque about the class anymore, the nerfs are just eroding the fun factor from the class.I wish I could do wizard damage, LOL. Honestly I don't feel i bring anythin unique to the table. I'm waiting for the final nail in the coffin and fully expect to see amazing shot nerfed in some way or another (distance most probably).This would blow. But I doubt they'll change it, until someone figures out how to use it creatively in PVP.I know a few other rangers disagree but I still believe PVP has been the death of this class and will continue to effect PVE rangers.I was afraid all these changes would come in PVP. I just wish Blackguard played a Ranger, maybe we wouldn't be abused so much...I finally hit my 50th AA last night and think it's time to retire my ranger. He's got all adept3/masters and lots of relic but he just doesnt feel like the ranger I used to love playing when the game first came out.Don't consider it retirement, think of it as a vacation. You'll want to play him again...

Ranja · 06-13-2006, 06:32 PM

I am done caring about this game or wasting energy on it. Rogues and Berzerkers do more auto-attack damage than we do. Let me say it again: A berzerker wearing platemail and wielding a tower shield and large sword can shoot a bow more effectively than a Ranger - a person who has dedicated their life to mastering the bow.

I am in a holding pattern now - jsut waiting for a new game to come out so I can cancel my subscritpion and never ever give SOE another dime again. SOE has shown total disregard for their player base. In all fairness, it is not completely their fault. They were forced to release a product that should not have been released and now are playing the catch up game. In the process, they are alienating their entire customer base with poor decisions and even worse PR.

The game is getting better, I am not disagreeing [Removed for Content] that. But, this game will wind up keeping its new players and any player that has been around for sometime will still have the bitter taste in their mouths of lu-13, lu-19,lu-24 etc.... How many times can SOE change, change and change again. No planning, no decision making, nothing. Do we all remember these debacles:

The ring changes - nerf, release, players spend money, nerf again a week later, waste players money
lu-13 - crushed the life out of certain classes (although it was probably necessary for the game)
lu-19 - Fixed a broken mechanic (bug) that was in the game since day 1. SOE has the gall to call its player base exploiters for playing the game within this mechanic
lu-24 - another "necessary" combat update
Bugged content released that is known to not be working
Disregard of the opinions of the testing player base
Bugged items that are never fixed
Itemization that has no real plan. They admitted they had no itemization in the past and now are struggling to catch up.
Most importantly, and probably the straw that crushed the camel. All of these changes were done without a nary of PR to soften the blow. Hell, anti- PR was used with the proc change when the alienated their player base by calling us exploiters for playing the game they designed.

Wow!That felt good :smileyvery-happy:

SOE has sucked the energy out of me for this game. I am wiating for the next game and cannot wait to hit cancel. I will never play another SOE game again and will tell everyone who will listen not to play another SOE game.

Jay · 06-13-2006, 06:55 PM

RAWR!!

Hey, I'll be sorry to see you go, man. You've been a fellow veteran weathering the storms around here, and it's never fun to part ways but I respect your decision. I can't really disagree with much of anything in your post.

My solution? Stop caring so much. Get back to it just being a game, and quit worrying about nerfs and re-nerfs and counter-nerfs and LUs and combat updates and the like. My litmus test is: "Would I still enjoy gameplay if I wasn't reading Test notes and griping on the forums?" If the answer remains "Yes" (and it has), I keep playing. If I take the gameplay out of the context of all this extra information, and just think of EQ2 as the game I play when I log in, then yes, it's still a good time. I have good friends playing and some characters I really like and I enjoy my time in-game. It's all the extra knowledge that clutters it up, for me - knowing how changes are being tested (or not), dreading LUs, hearing about upcoming nerfs in Test notes... it's an exercise in futility. So I try to isolate actually playing the game from reading and talking about the game, if I get to the point where I'm entirely too frustrated about an activity that I do in my free time for fun.

I'm still enjoying playing a ranger, but I will admit that some of the flavor is gone. I don't feel terribly unique or useful anymore; it's hard to point at our class and find much that we do that someone else can't do better. But I'm still really attached to my character anyway.

LoreLady · 06-13-2006, 07:40 PM

Sony has two tactics for all ballance/bugs.. And it is well known but subtle1: Fix the content that needs fixing, do what you can to patch it up2: If 1 fails, open a new expansion. Add new ballance and abilitys, any real problems. Dont add them in so people forget about it..

Nikki6 · 06-13-2006, 08:34 PM

I'll admit, I've remained like a mushroom on the boards as I just choose to be blissfully ignorant of changes and nerfs. I never knew I was broke and never thought I was inadequte in anyway. I provide damage and I give the meeces cheese. Heck every so often I keep catnip and yarn in my back pack for the Kerrans to keep them happy while I'm blissfully shooting stuff and watching my money go out the window on arrows. Broken? Eh. Guess it's all a matter of perception.

The arrow thing is a problem. However, I'm happy with my damage. Guess I never knew what it was like to be uber so I never missed anything.

By the way I love being a ranger.

Message Edited by Nikki656 on 06-13-2006 09:35 AM

Saihung23 · 06-13-2006, 08:51 PM

Rangers have more flavor than snapple!

Heh...sure I dont like the Storm of Arrows thing (read: I hate the change to SoA)...sure I dont like all the changes that come and go...

But one, I know no other class has it easy either...if I went and played any other class as exclusively as I play this one, I would be half insane when changes came and went...and two, like other posters have said...if I never came to the forums, I would likely never think I had many problems...

I know I was pretty vocal out there on some proposed changes...and likely when I hit the wall (70/70/50) I will also go and play my Templar Roboto more and give him a name in the world of Norrath.

However, I will never stop favoring my ranger because rangers kick [Removed for Content] and are just that much cooler for it.

content but still insane

Ranja · 06-13-2006, 08:55 PM

Jay42 wrote:

RAWR!!

Hey, I'll be sorry to see you go, man. You've been a fellow veteran weathering the storms around here, and it's never fun to part ways but I respect your decision. I can't really disagree with much of anything in your post.

My solution? Stop caring so much. Get back to it just being a game, and quit worrying about nerfs and re-nerfs and counter-nerfs and LUs and combat updates and the like. My litmus test is: "Would I still enjoy gameplay if I wasn't reading Test notes and griping on the forums?" If the answer remains "Yes" (and it has), I keep playing. If I take the gameplay out of the context of all this extra information, and just think of EQ2 as the game I play when I log in, then yes, it's still a good time. I have good friends playing and some characters I really like and I enjoy my time in-game. It's all the extra knowledge that clutters it up, for me - knowing how changes are being tested (or not), dreading LUs, hearing about upcoming nerfs in Test notes... it's an exercise in futility. So I try to isolate actually playing the game from reading and talking about the game, if I get to the point where I'm entirely too frustrated about an activity that I do in my free time for fun.

I'm still enjoying playing a ranger, but I will admit that some of the flavor is gone. I don't feel terribly unique or useful anymore; it's hard to point at our class and find much that we do that someone else can't do better. But I'm still really attached to my character anyway.

Thanks Jay! I agree with what you said. Your test is certainly a good litmus and one that I employ all the time. I think you have to if you are going to play EQ2 with any sense of sanity. I I love playing my Ranger and always will! I dont run parsers and I am not in a min/max guild so I always have a group and a spot in a raid. It is not the gameplay that is driving me out - I enjoy the game but I will admit I have hit a wall at 70 and there are only a couple of things for me to do when I log in (Claymore, TS,raids).

The not-caring I am talking about is a very disinterested type. I need to care about my character to have fun, but I don't. I think the problem is exacerbated by overall burn out. It is not that I don't like my Ranger or EQ2, it is more that my hatred of SOE overrides the other :smileyvery-happy:. I am new to SOE games - never played any other MMO by them. After my experience with EQ2, I dont think I ever will.

The problem is that SOE knows that we become attached to our characters. We loathe to give them up and waste all that time spent leveling them up and creating backstories. Most of us really become attached to our characters. Born from this attachment, is a strong desire to continue playing no matter what happens. SOE is banking on this attachment keeping people from leaving the game in droves. Well, for me it is a combination of things - summer, eq2 burnout, and SOE - but the MMO claws are slowly loosening and I find my attachment waning. I am going to use this lull in my attachment get out while I can and stop giving money to SOE.

With that said, I am not stupid enough to leave without having another game to go to:smileyvery-happy: I did not mean for this thread to turn into an "I quit" thread because I am not. I just felt the need to vent a little and I did - nuff said.

Keredh · 06-13-2006, 09:11 PM

Kudos to the poster who is fine as he is - and glad you see it that way.

I simply feel frustrated that in a group, there is nothing I can do to help my group mates. I can't make them attack quicker, harder, or faster. I can't improve their stamina or strength or agility. I can't help them sneak. I can't share my arrows with the pulling tank who has run out most of the time as they are no trade when salvaged and I refuse to pay two plat for arrers when I earn at best a plat a week. I can't even make them run faster as when it counts, they all have horses or carpets. I can debuff fire damage - but my wizard likes his ice comet. I can debuff defense - but the zerker does so much damage know one notices. I do damage. I do damage quite well - if I use poisons that I pay for, arrows that I could pay for (would improve my damage a smidgeon I am told if I bought "proper" arrows). I used to do more, but apparently I was scaling out of all proportion in theoretical future levels (which are not coming in with Echoes of Faydwer).

Despite all this... I'll still play a ranger. It's the genre I have most affinity for, though I genuinely doubt the contribution I make, in practical terms. I think others do it better.

Ker

Message Edited by Keredh on 06-13-2006 10:12 AM

Jayad · 06-13-2006, 10:31 PM

It can only hurt if you care. Apathy all the way!

Seriously though, I like playing my Ranger. The problem is, we're just not as good as we should be. We're okay, but there's nothing special we can do - damage, utility, skills. I don't mind the lack of utility because I played a ranger to just inflict massive pain. But it's as people have said, tank classes can beat us often and we're not close to the other damage classes. I think the problem is very simple:

Bows have inferior DR compared to equal DW or 2H (just look at grizzie's bow compared to the 2H/DW)
Our AAs are rather crappy. Classes which get dual-attacks just kill us in DPS because they get a huge boost from their big melees. (This also affects assassins)
Assassins get a significant advantage because of their Assassin's Mark CA which is a huge chunk of dps

Note that none of these problems have anything to do with the *amount* of damage in a particular CA. Thus I think SOE thinks we're "equal" to the assassins, when we're not.

To be honest I've been playing my alts (monk and necro) and they are superior, although a different playstyle.

USAFJeeper · 06-13-2006, 10:43 PM

My ranger has a mohawk! Flavoricious. Honestly if I had it to do over again I am not so sure I would be playing a ranger. I always liked the idea of a ranger but its a struggle now to stay in the top 5 in damage in my un-uber guild. I still play ranger as a main but there are reasons I am called the Alt King! When I get tired of the struggle to matter I just pull out an alt and re-enjoy the early zones and the changes there.

Course a couple of alts are catching up to Ranger boy now so soon I may have to make le decision... Mystic, troub, ranger... whose the least [Removed for Content]!

Jayad · 06-13-2006, 10:58 PM

Mystic

Prandtl · 06-13-2006, 11:10 PM

Xney wrote:

Our AAs are rather crappy. Classes which get dual-attacks just kill us in DPS because they get a huge boost from their big melees. (This also affects assassins)

I have to agree with this 1000%. Our AA selection blows comparitively

After looking at all the other class AA lines, it appears that predators are the only DPS class that did not get either a double attack or a CA reuse/cast timer reduction.

Double attacks... wow! And for both melee AND ranged attacks? Rangers and Assasins should be so lucky.

We got a reuse timer reduction (only for long resuse times, though) and a cast timer reduction; but these are all 'end of tree' AA's that cost 8 AA points apiece. Other archtypes get combination reuse/cast reducers that sometimes arent even at the end of the tree, costing only 1 AA pt! Imagine. Rangers have to spend 16 AA's to reduce SOME of the wait for timers to come back up.

In addition, 4 of our 5 AA lines are primarily geared to melee combat. Even the CA in the archery line is essentially a melee attack!

In my opinion the AA lines for the ranger are not well thought out and leave us gimped compared to other DPS classes.

Jayad · 06-13-2006, 11:13 PM

I think most classes probably don't really like their AAs. But the lack of double-attack is really hurting. Remember, double attacks I believe get another set of proc possibilities.

The only reason I like Poise is because of Focus. And it makes rangering feel more interactive. But as far as end stuff goes it's pretty tame. We don't have any great end skills.

Jay · 06-13-2006, 11:42 PM

Sadly, I have to agree with Xney and Prandtl. This is why I don't think about AA lines too much, b/c in the end, I find ours to be rather disappointing. Some of our AAs *sounded* cool at first, but at this point, they're rather underwhelming. And don't even get me started on the overalll balance / fairness of the AA offerings that different classes get...

TaleraRis · 06-13-2006, 11:49 PM

I love my Gwyn and I won't give her up. The changes coming are upsetting and disappointing, but I'll still be here giving feedback and trying to make things better for rangers at all levels.

Prandtl · 06-13-2006, 11:50 PM

Bounty FTW!!

BSbon · 06-14-2006, 12:01 AM

bentgate wrote:

I am done caring about this game or wasting energy on it. Rogues and Berzerkers do more auto-attack damage than we do. Let me say it again: A berzerker wearing platemail and wielding a tower shield and large sword can shoot a bow more effectively than a Ranger - a person who has dedicated their life to mastering the bow. Can you post a link to where you found this info? I'm interested in reading about that.

I am in a holding pattern now - jsut waiting for a new game to come out so I can cancel my subscritpion and never ever give SOE another dime again. SOE has shown total disregard for their player base. In all fairness, it is not completely their fault. They were forced to release a product that should not have been released and now are playing the catch up game. In the process, they are alienating their entire customer base with poor decisions and even worse PR.

The game is getting better, I am not disagreeing [Removed for Content] that. But, this game will wind up keeping its new players and any player that has been around for sometime will still have the bitter taste in their mouths of lu-13, lu-19,lu-24 etc.... How many times can SOE change, change and change again. No planning, no decision making, nothing. Do we all remember these debacles:

The ring changes - nerf, release, players spend money, nerf again a week later, waste players money

lu-13 - crushed the life out of certain classes (although it was probably necessary for the game)

lu-19 - Fixed a broken mechanic (bug) that was in the game since day 1. SOE has the gall to call its player base exploiters for playing the game within this mechanic

lu-24 - another "necessary" combat update

Bugged content released that is known to not be working

Disregard of the opinions of the testing player base

Bugged items that are never fixed

Itemization that has no real plan. They admitted they had no itemization in the past and now are struggling to catch up.

Most importantly, and probably the straw that crushed the camel. All of these changes were done without a nary of PR to soften the blow. Hell, anti- PR was used with the proc change when the alienated their player base by calling us exploiters for playing the game they designed.

Can you post a link to where you found this info i highlighted in blue? I'm interested in reading about these as well.

Wow!That felt good :smileyvery-happy:

SOE has sucked the energy out of me for this game. I am wiating for the next game and cannot wait to hit cancel. I will never play another SOE game again and will tell everyone who will listen not to play another SOE game.

Ranja · 06-14-2006, 12:40 AM

Hey Bongo,

Let me try and find those refernces.

1. Well for the first one - you jsut need to read the description of the Ranger class on the EQ2 website. We are masters of range.

2. This one was back when the argument about the change in legendary imbued rings went in. People were complaining about why the chagnes and Dev said the rings were overpowered and they were jsut finding out because they had no itemization in the game. Basically, devs were out there willy nilly making items with no master plan. It is somewhere in this thread I think.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=46901#M46901

3. The exploiter statment by Blackguard himself.

"Some players have been using this to their advantage by deliberately equipping slow weapons in order to give their fast-casting combat arts a better chance to proc."
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47688&view=by_date_ascending&page=2

Both of these are very long thread. THe 3rd one I found the comment for you. The 2nd one I just posted the thread. Sorry but you will have to scroll through for a red name to get the post.

Jayad · 06-14-2006, 02:04 AM

My favorite dev post is the one where they were saying "IF the rangers dps is all based on procs...". Like, there's 50 rangers all saying this is the case. it's obvious to any n00b with a parser at the time. And what they said, about re-adjusting upwards if that were true, has never come to pass. They did a teeny change upwards on only a few skills instead of really looking at it. Argh.

The second best was the lack of itemization. That's just mind-boggling but all too easy to believe.

Balerius · 06-14-2006, 03:31 AM

Bongo-- the reason why guardians/berserkers and swashbucklers/brigands out-dps us with autoattack ranged attacks is due to their double attack AAs. For every bow attack you are doing, they are doing 2 attacks. And if they have procs applied, if one doesn't go off on the first attack, it has a chance to go off on the second attack. Our AA to have a chance to crit our bow attacks doesn't come close to making up the difference.

So guardians/berserkers and swashbucklers/brigands simply smoke us in ranged dps (autoattack). For that matter, given the rather puny damage on most of our ranged CAs, unless sniper shot or rain of arrows CAs are available, they would out-dps us even if we counted our ranged CA damage.

Now can I point to a thread where a dev said this? Of course not. I think SoE is oblivious to the issue. This all goes into the mix as to why Rangers are currently out-dps'd by so many so-called tier-2 and tier-3 classes in raid environments. If a ranger only solos or groups, then issues such as this are invisible since these classes tend to perform their more customary roles. In a raid environment, however, these classes can often perform a dps role (such as a non-tanking berserker) and the weaknesses of ranger dps becomes apparent.

Carna · 06-14-2006, 06:27 AM

Balerius wrote:
So guardians/berserkers and swashbucklers/brigands simply smoke us in ranged dps (autoattack).

Does the Rogue double attack AA work with ranged weapons?

Balerius wrote:

For that matter, given the rather puny damage on most of our ranged CAs, unless sniper shot or rain of arrows CAs are available, they would out-dps us even if we counted our ranged CA damage.

Are you suggesting that my Brigand using ranged auto-attack will out-dps a Ranger who is using ranged CAs?

I'd also take this opportunity to point out that Swashbucklers gain a little more from double attack than Brigands as they have additional procs that can be triggered from a double attack. I'd hope that you'd not assume both Rogues are the same any more than you'd assume both Predators are the same.

Balerius · 06-14-2006, 08:35 AM

Carnagh wrote:

Balerius wrote:
So guardians/berserkers and swashbucklers/brigands simply smoke us in ranged dps (autoattack).

Does the Rogue double attack AA work with ranged weapons? YES

Balerius wrote:

For that matter, given the rather puny damage on most of our ranged CAs, unless sniper shot or rain of arrows CAs are available, they would out-dps us even if we counted our ranged CA damage.

Are you suggesting that my Brigand using ranged auto-attack will out-dps a Ranger who is using ranged CAs? Not always. But it is frequently the case. It depends on how many crits the ranger gets versus how many crits the rogue gets. Remember, the rogue is double attacking, meaning each attack is "full" damage plus each attack can crit. The ranger is just attacking once with a one chance to crit. With the exception of Sniper Shot and Rain of Arrows, and to a lesser extent Veiled Fire, the damage on our ranged CAs is pretty low...so low that they are often exceeded by pure autoattack. So without one of our "big hitting/long recast" CAs being used, it isn't hard at all for a rogue/fighter to out-dps a ranger with ranged attack.

I'd also take this opportunity to point out that Swashbucklers gain a little more from double attack than Brigands as they have additional procs that can be triggered from a double attack. I'd hope that you'd not assume both Rogues are the same any more than you'd assume both Predators are the same.

What makes you think that I assume that the two rogue classes were the same? Granted, Swashys have some self-buffs that cause them to do slightly higher dps than brigands. But the context of my discussion was in raids where it isn't just the rogue's own buffs that matter, but the buffs of other classes as well. In that context, I stand by my statements.

Balerius

Carna · 06-14-2006, 09:02 AM

If my Brigand can deliver more ranged damage than a similarly pitched Ranger under any circumstances at all, then I'm gobsmacked and it needs addressed as a matter of priority. It shouldn't be possible in any way, shape or form.

Have you whitnessed this happening? Or is this theory of how the numbers might stack up?... To get the double attack and reliable crits to work the way you describe requires heavy investment in two different trees.... I'm dubious not simply to nock you; simply that I'm finding it difficult to get my head around such a rediculous notion of a circumstance.

Balerius · 06-14-2006, 11:46 AM

Carnagh wrote:

If my Brigand can deliver more ranged damage than a similarly pitched Ranger under any circumstances at all, then I'm gobsmacked and it needs addressed as a matter of priority. It shouldn't be possible in any way, shape or form.

Have you whitnessed this happening? Or is this theory of how the numbers might stack up?... To get the double attack and reliable crits to work the way you describe requires heavy investment in two different trees.... I'm dubious not simply to nock you; simply that I'm finding it difficult to get my head around such a rediculous notion of a circumstance.

I witness it every night.

Your crit% chance AA is melee only. I didn't mention that AA since it wasn't relevant to my post. Your double attack AA that allows double attack on both melee and ranged attacks is level 4 and you can easily put 8 points into it without sacrificing much on other AA progression (i.e., you can still have traumatic swipe).

Here's an example:

You and a ranger auto attack with a bow that has a 6 second delay. You each do 1500 pts of "base" damage with your attack.

Now assume the ranger has a 66% chance to crit. Assuming the ranger crits, as a rough outcome, the crit will result in a 33% increase in damage so the ranger's attack will actually do 2000 damage overall. This would equate to 2000/6 second = 333 dps

But the rogue has a 66% chance to double attack and his attacks each do 1500 damage so he does 3000 damage overall. Bear in mind, the rogue also has a chance to crit on each of those attacks (although probably at a much lower rate than the ranger). Without counting a posible crit, the rogue did 3000/6 seconds = 500 dps.

The rogue outdid the ranger by 166 dps or by 50%.

Add haste to the equation. Each class benefits the same. Typically on raids players are maxed out on haste. Assuming for the sake of argument that the bow attack did the same damage as before, the ranger does 666 dps and the rogue does 1000 dps. The rogue out damages by the same 50% but the difference in dps is now 334 dps.

Add dps modifiers to the equation in addition to haste from the previous example.

If the ranger has a 20% dps increase buff placed on him by another class, then the ranger now did in 6 seconds 666 x 120% = 800 dps. The rogue with the same dps increase buff on him will do 1000 x 120% = 1200 dps over the same 6 second period. The difference is still 50% but the rogue is out-dpsing the ranger by 400 dps.

Now add procs to the equation. The ranger gets a self-proc. The rogue may not. Otherwise, the chance to proc is the same for both characters except that the rogue gets a chance to proc on each double attack bow shot...the ranger does not (the rogue only procs on the second shot an applied proc that didn't proc on the first shot...but this is still "two bites of the apple"). So give the ranger 900 damage from his self proc over the 6 second period and 300 damage from applied procs. And give the rogue 0 damage from a self-proc but 450 damage from applied procs during the 6 seconds. The ranger now did 800 + (1200/6) = 1000 dps and the rogue did 1200 + (450/6) = 1266 dps.

The above numbers are notional but representative. Those are the basic mechanics. And I didn't even count crits on the rogue. Or self dps and self proc modifiers on other classes. Those are the basic mechanics as to why swashbucklers/brigands and berzerkers can out-dps rangers with ranged attack. Play with the numbers all you want...you can't escape the difference that double attack makes.

edit: typo

Message Edited by Balerius on 06-14-2006 03:51 AM

Blarth · 06-14-2006, 01:34 PM

I think that with all these changes it makes it more fun. It sucks to have to work hard to become a threat on the dps ladder but thats what games are suppose to be...a challenge. Sometimes it gets dull and boring, like now but that is why they are always adding content. Also this game i about interacting with other people. Game On.

Mary the Prophetess · 06-14-2006, 02:22 PM

I have always played a Ranger. Even in games that had no specific Ranger class, I have shaped my character into whatever is closest to the Ranger archetype.

EQ2 is a terrific game, ( I honestly cannot point to any that is it's equal, much less, it's better). I have played since the opening day of EQLive. I would whole-heartedly recommend this game to anyone.

And yet:

I am now spending 80% of my time in DnL, (Dark and Light); perhaps the worst prepared and implimented game I have ever encountered, (and I have played them all).

Bug ridden, under-staffed, barely playable, (yet absolutely HUGE); erratically patched, subject to hackers, frustratingly under-developed. Absolutely inferior to EQ2 in every way.

Why?!!

I don't really know. Masochistic? EQ burnout? Personal character flaw? I don't really know. Something has gone out of the game for me. I still keep my account active, I still play my Ranger a couple of times per week, but it just seems hollow, scripted, formulized.

I am a Ranger, but I don't feel like one. All the various classes are being homoginized. (I suspect--and have stated before--because of PvP; though I am a proponent of PvP).

I don't really care about DPS. I don't really care about raiding. I play solo. I always have, and I (most likely), always will.

Why am I leaving a better game for a worse game? I don't know, other than to say that my time in Norrath, seems scripted and contrived.

Luck in battle, until our paths should cross again.

Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on 06-14-2006 10:13 AM

Balerius · 06-14-2006, 04:37 PM

Balerius wrote:

Carnagh wrote:

If my Brigand can deliver more ranged damage than a similarly pitched Ranger under any circumstances at all, then I'm gobsmacked and it needs addressed as a matter of priority. It shouldn't be possible in any way, shape or form.

Have you whitnessed this happening? Or is this theory of how the numbers might stack up?... To get the double attack and reliable crits to work the way you describe requires heavy investment in two different trees.... I'm dubious not simply to nock you; simply that I'm finding it difficult to get my head around such a rediculous notion of a circumstance.

I witness it every night.

Your crit% chance AA is melee only. I didn't mention that AA since it wasn't relevant to my post. Your double attack AA that allows double attack on both melee and ranged attacks is level 4 and you can easily put 8 points into it without sacrificing much on other AA progression (i.e., you can still have traumatic swipe).

Here's an example:

You and a ranger auto attack with a bow that has a 6 second delay. You each do 1500 pts of "base" damage with your attack.

Now assume the ranger has a 66% chance to crit. Assuming the ranger crits, as a rough outcome, the crit will result in a 33% increase in damage so the ranger's attack will actually do 2000 damage overall. This would equate to 2000/6 second = 333 dps

But the rogue has a 66% chance to double attack and his attacks each do 1500 damage so he does 3000 damage overall. Bear in mind, the rogue also has a chance to crit on each of those attacks (although probably at a much lower rate than the ranger). Without counting a posible crit, the rogue did 3000/6 seconds = 500 dps.

The rogue outdid the ranger by 166 dps or by 50%.

Add haste to the equation. Each class benefits the same. Typically on raids players are maxed out on haste. Assuming for the sake of argument that the bow attack did the same damage as before, the ranger does 666 dps and the rogue does 1000 dps. The rogue out damages by the same 50% but the difference in dps is now 334 dps.

Add dps modifiers to the equation in addition to haste from the previous example.

If the ranger has a 20% dps increase buff placed on him by another class, then the ranger now did in 6 seconds 666 x 120% = 800 dps. The rogue with the same dps increase buff on him will do 1000 x 120% = 1200 dps over the same 6 second period. The difference is still 50% but the rogue is out-dpsing the ranger by 400 dps.

Now add procs to the equation. The ranger gets a self-proc. The rogue may not. Otherwise, the chance to proc is the same for both characters except that the rogue gets a chance to proc on each double attack bow shot...the ranger does not (the rogue only procs on the second shot an applied proc that didn't proc on the first shot...but this is still "two bites of the apple"). So give the ranger 900 damage from his self proc over the 6 second period and 300 damage from applied procs. And give the rogue 0 damage from a self-proc but 450 damage from applied procs during the 6 seconds. The ranger now did 800 + (1200/6) = 1000 dps and the rogue did 1200 + (450/6) = 1266 dps.

The above numbers are notional but representative. Those are the basic mechanics. And I didn't even count crits on the rogue. Or self dps and self proc modifiers on other classes. Those are the basic mechanics as to why swashbucklers/brigands and berzerkers can out-dps rangers with ranged attack. Play with the numbers all you want...you can't escape the difference that double attack makes.

edit: typo

Message Edited by Balerius on 06-14-2006 03:51 AM

One thing I forgot to point out. In case anyone wants to question my initial assumption where the ranger in the above example crits his ranged attack and the rogue does a double attack....don't go there.

The ranger with 8 points in his % crit chance AA gets a 22.4% increased chance to crit. Meanwhile, a rogue with 8 points in his % double attack chance AA receives a 66% chance to double attack. It's far more likely that a rogue will double attack than it is likely that a ranger will crit his ranged attack. So, if anything, the above analysis is skewed in favor of the ranger.

Teksun · 06-14-2006, 04:51 PM

Yes our aa's are lacking, but I am STILL hoping that our new abilities in NOV will make up for it. They are doing class specific lines, maybe they will do them right.

TwistedFaith · 06-14-2006, 05:29 PM

Blarth wrote:I think that with all these changes it makes it more fun. It sucks tohave to work hard to become a threat on the dps ladder but thats whatgames are suppose to be...a challenge. Sometimes it gets dull andboring, like now but that is why they are always adding content. Alsothis game i about interacting with other people. Game On.

Dont mistake people complaining about the class as us wanting rangers to be easy dps.Bottom line is the game mechanics are not there for rangers to be top DPS. I'd even accept this but more than the DPS, the joy of playing a ranger seems to be rapidly disapearing due to a series of nerfs that have nothing to do with our class or ruleset.

06-13-2006, 05:45 PM	#2
Teksun Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,048	valleyboy1 wrote:Anyone else feel that the ranger class is getting more and more away from feeling like playing a actual ranger.Yes, but I still think quite a few of us will stick it out. A LOT of the Rangers were created when we were kings of the hill. Now a lot will go on the shelf until something changesWith the upcomming nerfs, we are in my opinion becoming simply wizards in chainmail. There doesnt seem anything rangeresque about the class anymore, the nerfs are just eroding the fun factor from the class.I wish I could do wizard damage, LOL. Honestly I don't feel i bring anythin unique to the table. I'm waiting for the final nail in the coffin and fully expect to see amazing shot nerfed in some way or another (distance most probably).This would blow. But I doubt they'll change it, until someone figures out how to use it creatively in PVP.I know a few other rangers disagree but I still believe PVP has been the death of this class and will continue to effect PVE rangers.I was afraid all these changes would come in PVP. I just wish Blackguard played a Ranger, maybe we wouldn't be abused so much...I finally hit my 50th AA last night and think it's time to retire my ranger. He's got all adept3/masters and lots of relic but he just doesnt feel like the ranger I used to love playing when the game first came out.Don't consider it retirement, think of it as a vacation. You'll want to play him again... __________________ Nerf the Hobbits

06-13-2006, 06:32 PM	#3
Ranja Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,657	I am done caring about this game or wasting energy on it. Rogues and Berzerkers do more auto-attack damage than we do. Let me say it again: A berzerker wearing platemail and wielding a tower shield and large sword can shoot a bow more effectively than a Ranger - a person who has dedicated their life to mastering the bow. I am in a holding pattern now - jsut waiting for a new game to come out so I can cancel my subscritpion and never ever give SOE another dime again. SOE has shown total disregard for their player base. In all fairness, it is not completely their fault. They were forced to release a product that should not have been released and now are playing the catch up game. In the process, they are alienating their entire customer base with poor decisions and even worse PR. The game is getting better, I am not disagreeing [Removed for Content] that. But, this game will wind up keeping its new players and any player that has been around for sometime will still have the bitter taste in their mouths of lu-13, lu-19,lu-24 etc.... How many times can SOE change, change and change again. No planning, no decision making, nothing. Do we all remember these debacles: The ring changes - nerf, release, players spend money, nerf again a week later, waste players money lu-13 - crushed the life out of certain classes (although it was probably necessary for the game) lu-19 - Fixed a broken mechanic (bug) that was in the game since day 1. SOE has the gall to call its player base exploiters for playing the game within this mechanic lu-24 - another "necessary" combat update Bugged content released that is known to not be working Disregard of the opinions of the testing player base Bugged items that are never fixed Itemization that has no real plan. They admitted they had no itemization in the past and now are struggling to catch up. Most importantly, and probably the straw that crushed the camel. All of these changes were done without a nary of PR to soften the blow. Hell, anti- PR was used with the proc change when the alienated their player base by calling us exploiters for playing the game they designed. Wow!That felt good :smileyvery-happy: SOE has sucked the energy out of me for this game. I am wiating for the next game and cannot wait to hit cancel. I will never play another SOE game again and will tell everyone who will listen not to play another SOE game. __________________ Elbryan, 90 Half-elf Ranger Thoghmor, 70 Troll Bruiser Rotir, 90 Dark Elf Swash Terrano, 82 Dark Elf Dirge Aymon, 90, Barbarian Shadowknight The Destroyer of Worlds: http://s7.gladiatus.com/game/c.php?uid=84341

06-13-2006, 06:55 PM	#4
Jay General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,137	RAWR!! Hey, I'll be sorry to see you go, man. You've been a fellow veteran weathering the storms around here, and it's never fun to part ways but I respect your decision. I can't really disagree with much of anything in your post. My solution? Stop caring so much. Get back to it just being a game, and quit worrying about nerfs and re-nerfs and counter-nerfs and LUs and combat updates and the like. My litmus test is: "Would I still enjoy gameplay if I wasn't reading Test notes and griping on the forums?" If the answer remains "Yes" (and it has), I keep playing. If I take the gameplay out of the context of all this extra information, and just think of EQ2 as the game I play when I log in, then yes, it's still a good time. I have good friends playing and some characters I really like and I enjoy my time in-game. It's all the extra knowledge that clutters it up, for me - knowing how changes are being tested (or not), dreading LUs, hearing about upcoming nerfs in Test notes... it's an exercise in futility. So I try to isolate actually playing the game from reading and talking about the game, if I get to the point where I'm entirely too frustrated about an activity that I do in my free time for fun. I'm still enjoying playing a ranger, but I will admit that some of the flavor is gone. I don't feel terribly unique or useful anymore; it's hard to point at our class and find much that we do that someone else can't do better. But I'm still really attached to my character anyway. __________________

06-13-2006, 07:40 PM	#5
LoreLady Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,039	Sony has two tactics for all ballance/bugs.. And it is well known but subtle1: Fix the content that needs fixing, do what you can to patch it up2: If 1 fails, open a new expansion. Add new ballance and abilitys, any real problems. Dont add them in so people forget about it.. __________________ RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006

06-13-2006, 08:51 PM	#7
Saihung23 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Delaware:Home of...Home of...we got stuff! Posts: 1,527	Rangers have more flavor than snapple! Heh...sure I dont like the Storm of Arrows thing (read: I hate the change to SoA)...sure I dont like all the changes that come and go... But one, I know no other class has it easy either...if I went and played any other class as exclusively as I play this one, I would be half insane when changes came and went...and two, like other posters have said...if I never came to the forums, I would likely never think I had many problems... I know I was pretty vocal out there on some proposed changes...and likely when I hit the wall (70/70/50) I will also go and play my Templar Roboto more and give him a name in the world of Norrath. However, I will never stop favoring my ranger because rangers kick [Removed for Content] and are just that much cooler for it. content but still insane __________________

06-13-2006, 05:04 PM	#1
TwistedFaith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 892	Anyone else feel that the ranger class is getting more and more away from feeling like playing a actual ranger.With the upcomming nerfs, we are in my opinion becoming simply wizards in chainmail. There doesnt seem anything rangeresque about the class anymore, the nerfs are just eroding the fun factor from the class.I'm waiting for the final nail in the coffin and fully expect to see amazing shot nerfed in some way or another (distance most probably).I know a few other rangers disagree but I still believe PVP has been the death of this class and will continue to effect PVE rangers.I finally hit my 50th AA last night and think it's time to retire my ranger. He's got all adept3/masters and lots of relic but he just doesnt feel like the ranger I used to love playing when the game first came out.

06-13-2006, 08:34 PM	#6
Nikki6 Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 7	I'll admit, I've remained like a mushroom on the boards as I just choose to be blissfully ignorant of changes and nerfs. I never knew I was broke and never thought I was inadequte in anyway. I provide damage and I give the meeces cheese. Heck every so often I keep catnip and yarn in my back pack for the Kerrans to keep them happy while I'm blissfully shooting stuff and watching my money go out the window on arrows. Broken? Eh. Guess it's all a matter of perception. The arrow thing is a problem. However, I'm happy with my damage. Guess I never knew what it was like to be uber so I never missed anything. By the way I love being a ranger. Message Edited by Nikki656 on 06-13-2006 09:35 AM

06-13-2006, 08:55 PM	#8
Ranja Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,657	Jay42 wrote: RAWR!! Hey, I'll be sorry to see you go, man. You've been a fellow veteran weathering the storms around here, and it's never fun to part ways but I respect your decision. I can't really disagree with much of anything in your post. My solution? Stop caring so much. Get back to it just being a game, and quit worrying about nerfs and re-nerfs and counter-nerfs and LUs and combat updates and the like. My litmus test is: "Would I still enjoy gameplay if I wasn't reading Test notes and griping on the forums?" If the answer remains "Yes" (and it has), I keep playing. If I take the gameplay out of the context of all this extra information, and just think of EQ2 as the game I play when I log in, then yes, it's still a good time. I have good friends playing and some characters I really like and I enjoy my time in-game. It's all the extra knowledge that clutters it up, for me - knowing how changes are being tested (or not), dreading LUs, hearing about upcoming nerfs in Test notes... it's an exercise in futility. So I try to isolate actually playing the game from reading and talking about the game, if I get to the point where I'm entirely too frustrated about an activity that I do in my free time for fun. I'm still enjoying playing a ranger, but I will admit that some of the flavor is gone. I don't feel terribly unique or useful anymore; it's hard to point at our class and find much that we do that someone else can't do better. But I'm still really attached to my character anyway. Thanks Jay! I agree with what you said. Your test is certainly a good litmus and one that I employ all the time. I think you have to if you are going to play EQ2 with any sense of sanity. I I love playing my Ranger and always will! I dont run parsers and I am not in a min/max guild so I always have a group and a spot in a raid. It is not the gameplay that is driving me out - I enjoy the game but I will admit I have hit a wall at 70 and there are only a couple of things for me to do when I log in (Claymore, TS,raids). The not-caring I am talking about is a very disinterested type. I need to care about my character to have fun, but I don't. I think the problem is exacerbated by overall burn out. It is not that I don't like my Ranger or EQ2, it is more that my hatred of SOE overrides the other :smileyvery-happy:. I am new to SOE games - never played any other MMO by them. After my experience with EQ2, I dont think I ever will. The problem is that SOE knows that we become attached to our characters. We loathe to give them up and waste all that time spent leveling them up and creating backstories. Most of us really become attached to our characters. Born from this attachment, is a strong desire to continue playing no matter what happens. SOE is banking on this attachment keeping people from leaving the game in droves. Well, for me it is a combination of things - summer, eq2 burnout, and SOE - but the MMO claws are slowly loosening and I find my attachment waning. I am going to use this lull in my attachment get out while I can and stop giving money to SOE. With that said, I am not stupid enough to leave without having another game to go to:smileyvery-happy: I did not mean for this thread to turn into an "I quit" thread because I am not. I just felt the need to vent a little and I did - nuff said. __________________ Elbryan, 90 Half-elf Ranger Thoghmor, 70 Troll Bruiser Rotir, 90 Dark Elf Swash Terrano, 82 Dark Elf Dirge Aymon, 90, Barbarian Shadowknight The Destroyer of Worlds: http://s7.gladiatus.com/game/c.php?uid=84341

06-13-2006, 09:11 PM	#9
Keredh Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 101	Kudos to the poster who is fine as he is - and glad you see it that way. I simply feel frustrated that in a group, there is nothing I can do to help my group mates. I can't make them attack quicker, harder, or faster. I can't improve their stamina or strength or agility. I can't help them sneak. I can't share my arrows with the pulling tank who has run out most of the time as they are no trade when salvaged and I refuse to pay two plat for arrers when I earn at best a plat a week. I can't even make them run faster as when it counts, they all have horses or carpets. I can debuff fire damage - but my wizard likes his ice comet. I can debuff defense - but the zerker does so much damage know one notices. I do damage. I do damage quite well - if I use poisons that I pay for, arrows that I could pay for (would improve my damage a smidgeon I am told if I bought "proper" arrows). I used to do more, but apparently I was scaling out of all proportion in theoretical future levels (which are not coming in with Echoes of Faydwer). Despite all this... I'll still play a ranger. It's the genre I have most affinity for, though I genuinely doubt the contribution I make, in practical terms. I think others do it better. Ker Message Edited by Keredh on 06-13-2006 10:12 AM __________________

06-13-2006, 10:31 PM	#10
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	It can only hurt if you care. Apathy all the way! Seriously though, I like playing my Ranger. The problem is, we're just not as good as we should be. We're okay, but there's nothing special we can do - damage, utility, skills. I don't mind the lack of utility because I played a ranger to just inflict massive pain. But it's as people have said, tank classes can beat us often and we're not close to the other damage classes. I think the problem is very simple: Bows have inferior DR compared to equal DW or 2H (just look at grizzie's bow compared to the 2H/DW) Our AAs are rather crappy. Classes which get dual-attacks just kill us in DPS because they get a huge boost from their big melees. (This also affects assassins) Assassins get a significant advantage because of their Assassin's Mark CA which is a huge chunk of dps Note that none of these problems have anything to do with the amount of damage in a particular CA. Thus I think SOE thinks we're "equal" to the assassins, when we're not. To be honest I've been playing my alts (monk and necro) and they are superior, although a different playstyle.

06-13-2006, 10:43 PM	#11
USAFJeeper Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 276	My ranger has a mohawk! Flavoricious. Honestly if I had it to do over again I am not so sure I would be playing a ranger. I always liked the idea of a ranger but its a struggle now to stay in the top 5 in damage in my un-uber guild. I still play ranger as a main but there are reasons I am called the Alt King! When I get tired of the struggle to matter I just pull out an alt and re-enjoy the early zones and the changes there. Course a couple of alts are catching up to Ranger boy now so soon I may have to make le decision... Mystic, troub, ranger... whose the least [Removed for Content]! __________________

06-13-2006, 10:58 PM	#12
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	Mystic

06-13-2006, 11:10 PM	#13
Prandtl Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 474	Xney wrote: Our AAs are rather crappy. Classes which get dual-attacks just kill us in DPS because they get a huge boost from their big melees. (This also affects assassins) I have to agree with this 1000%. Our AA selection blows comparitively After looking at all the other class AA lines, it appears that predators are the only DPS class that did not get either a double attack or a CA reuse/cast timer reduction. Double attacks... wow! And for both melee AND ranged attacks? Rangers and Assasins should be so lucky. We got a reuse timer reduction (only for long resuse times, though) and a cast timer reduction; but these are all 'end of tree' AA's that cost 8 AA points apiece. Other archtypes get combination reuse/cast reducers that sometimes arent even at the end of the tree, costing only 1 AA pt! Imagine. Rangers have to spend 16 AA's to reduce SOME of the wait for timers to come back up. In addition, 4 of our 5 AA lines are primarily geared to melee combat. Even the CA in the archery line is essentially a melee attack! In my opinion the AA lines for the ranger are not well thought out and leave us gimped compared to other DPS classes. __________________

06-13-2006, 11:13 PM	#14
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	I think most classes probably don't really like their AAs. But the lack of double-attack is really hurting. Remember, double attacks I believe get another set of proc possibilities. The only reason I like Poise is because of Focus. And it makes rangering feel more interactive. But as far as end stuff goes it's pretty tame. We don't have any great end skills.

06-13-2006, 11:42 PM	#15
Jay General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,137	Sadly, I have to agree with Xney and Prandtl. This is why I don't think about AA lines too much, b/c in the end, I find ours to be rather disappointing. Some of our AAs sounded cool at first, but at this point, they're rather underwhelming. And don't even get me started on the overalll balance / fairness of the AA offerings that different classes get... __________________

06-13-2006, 11:49 PM	#16
TaleraRis Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 2,083	I love my Gwyn and I won't give her up. The changes coming are upsetting and disappointing, but I'll still be here giving feedback and trying to make things better for rangers at all levels. __________________ Gwyneth Lecarde 90 Warty Arrow Flinger 90 Sword Shiner Najena Morgasand Ka'Bael 54 Roswellian Mind Scrambler 87 Shield Polisher Najena

06-13-2006, 11:50 PM	#17
Prandtl Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 474	Bounty FTW!! __________________

06-14-2006, 12:01 AM	#18
BSbon General Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 605	bentgate wrote: I am done caring about this game or wasting energy on it. Rogues and Berzerkers do more auto-attack damage than we do. Let me say it again: A berzerker wearing platemail and wielding a tower shield and large sword can shoot a bow more effectively than a Ranger - a person who has dedicated their life to mastering the bow. Can you post a link to where you found this info? I'm interested in reading about that. I am in a holding pattern now - jsut waiting for a new game to come out so I can cancel my subscritpion and never ever give SOE another dime again. SOE has shown total disregard for their player base. In all fairness, it is not completely their fault. They were forced to release a product that should not have been released and now are playing the catch up game. In the process, they are alienating their entire customer base with poor decisions and even worse PR. The game is getting better, I am not disagreeing [Removed for Content] that. But, this game will wind up keeping its new players and any player that has been around for sometime will still have the bitter taste in their mouths of lu-13, lu-19,lu-24 etc.... How many times can SOE change, change and change again. No planning, no decision making, nothing. Do we all remember these debacles: The ring changes - nerf, release, players spend money, nerf again a week later, waste players money lu-13 - crushed the life out of certain classes (although it was probably necessary for the game) lu-19 - Fixed a broken mechanic (bug) that was in the game since day 1. SOE has the gall to call its player base exploiters for playing the game within this mechanic lu-24 - another "necessary" combat update Bugged content released that is known to not be working Disregard of the opinions of the testing player base Bugged items that are never fixed Itemization that has no real plan. They admitted they had no itemization in the past and now are struggling to catch up. Most importantly, and probably the straw that crushed the camel. All of these changes were done without a nary of PR to soften the blow. Hell, anti- PR was used with the proc change when the alienated their player base by calling us exploiters for playing the game they designed. Can you post a link to where you found this info i highlighted in blue? I'm interested in reading about these as well. Wow!That felt good :smileyvery-happy: SOE has sucked the energy out of me for this game. I am wiating for the next game and cannot wait to hit cancel. I will never play another SOE game again and will tell everyone who will listen not to play another SOE game. __________________ Click Here for Amazing Superteam Comics updated Tuesday and Thursday " width="360" height="81">

06-14-2006, 12:40 AM	#19
Ranja Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,657	Hey Bongo, Let me try and find those refernces. 1. Well for the first one - you jsut need to read the description of the Ranger class on the EQ2 website. We are masters of range. 2. This one was back when the argument about the change in legendary imbued rings went in. People were complaining about why the chagnes and Dev said the rings were overpowered and they were jsut finding out because they had no itemization in the game. Basically, devs were out there willy nilly making items with no master plan. It is somewhere in this thread I think. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=46901#M46901 3. The exploiter statment by Blackguard himself. "Some players have been using this to their advantage by deliberately equipping slow weapons in order to give their fast-casting combat arts a better chance to proc." http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47688&view=by_date_ascending&page=2 Both of these are very long thread. THe 3rd one I found the comment for you. The 2nd one I just posted the thread. Sorry but you will have to scroll through for a red name to get the post. __________________ Elbryan, 90 Half-elf Ranger Thoghmor, 70 Troll Bruiser Rotir, 90 Dark Elf Swash Terrano, 82 Dark Elf Dirge Aymon, 90, Barbarian Shadowknight The Destroyer of Worlds: http://s7.gladiatus.com/game/c.php?uid=84341

06-14-2006, 02:04 AM	#20
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	My favorite dev post is the one where they were saying "IF the rangers dps is all based on procs...". Like, there's 50 rangers all saying this is the case. it's obvious to any n00b with a parser at the time. And what they said, about re-adjusting upwards if that were true, has never come to pass. They did a teeny change upwards on only a few skills instead of really looking at it. Argh. The second best was the lack of itemization. That's just mind-boggling but all too easy to believe.

06-14-2006, 03:31 AM	#21
Balerius Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 259	Bongo-- the reason why guardians/berserkers and swashbucklers/brigands out-dps us with autoattack ranged attacks is due to their double attack AAs. For every bow attack you are doing, they are doing 2 attacks. And if they have procs applied, if one doesn't go off on the first attack, it has a chance to go off on the second attack. Our AA to have a chance to crit our bow attacks doesn't come close to making up the difference. So guardians/berserkers and swashbucklers/brigands simply smoke us in ranged dps (autoattack). For that matter, given the rather puny damage on most of our ranged CAs, unless sniper shot or rain of arrows CAs are available, they would out-dps us even if we counted our ranged CA damage. Now can I point to a thread where a dev said this? Of course not. I think SoE is oblivious to the issue. This all goes into the mix as to why Rangers are currently out-dps'd by so many so-called tier-2 and tier-3 classes in raid environments. If a ranger only solos or groups, then issues such as this are invisible since these classes tend to perform their more customary roles. In a raid environment, however, these classes can often perform a dps role (such as a non-tanking berserker) and the weaknesses of ranger dps becomes apparent.

06-14-2006, 06:27 AM	#22
Carna Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 515	Balerius wrote: So guardians/berserkers and swashbucklers/brigands simply smoke us in ranged dps (autoattack). Does the Rogue double attack AA work with ranged weapons? Balerius wrote: For that matter, given the rather puny damage on most of our ranged CAs, unless sniper shot or rain of arrows CAs are available, they would out-dps us even if we counted our ranged CA damage. Are you suggesting that my Brigand using ranged auto-attack will out-dps a Ranger who is using ranged CAs? I'd also take this opportunity to point out that Swashbucklers gain a little more from double attack than Brigands as they have additional procs that can be triggered from a double attack. I'd hope that you'd not assume both Rogues are the same any more than you'd assume both Predators are the same.

06-14-2006, 08:35 AM	#23
Balerius Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 259	Carnagh wrote: Balerius wrote: So guardians/berserkers and swashbucklers/brigands simply smoke us in ranged dps (autoattack). Does the Rogue double attack AA work with ranged weapons? YES Balerius wrote: For that matter, given the rather puny damage on most of our ranged CAs, unless sniper shot or rain of arrows CAs are available, they would out-dps us even if we counted our ranged CA damage. Are you suggesting that my Brigand using ranged auto-attack will out-dps a Ranger who is using ranged CAs? Not always. But it is frequently the case. It depends on how many crits the ranger gets versus how many crits the rogue gets. Remember, the rogue is double attacking, meaning each attack is "full" damage plus each attack can crit. The ranger is just attacking once with a one chance to crit. With the exception of Sniper Shot and Rain of Arrows, and to a lesser extent Veiled Fire, the damage on our ranged CAs is pretty low...so low that they are often exceeded by pure autoattack. So without one of our "big hitting/long recast" CAs being used, it isn't hard at all for a rogue/fighter to out-dps a ranger with ranged attack. I'd also take this opportunity to point out that Swashbucklers gain a little more from double attack than Brigands as they have additional procs that can be triggered from a double attack. I'd hope that you'd not assume both Rogues are the same any more than you'd assume both Predators are the same. What makes you think that I assume that the two rogue classes were the same? Granted, Swashys have some self-buffs that cause them to do slightly higher dps than brigands. But the context of my discussion was in raids where it isn't just the rogue's own buffs that matter, but the buffs of other classes as well. In that context, I stand by my statements. Balerius

06-14-2006, 09:02 AM	#24
Carna Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 515	If my Brigand can deliver more ranged damage than a similarly pitched Ranger under any circumstances at all, then I'm gobsmacked and it needs addressed as a matter of priority. It shouldn't be possible in any way, shape or form. Have you whitnessed this happening? Or is this theory of how the numbers might stack up?... To get the double attack and reliable crits to work the way you describe requires heavy investment in two different trees.... I'm dubious not simply to nock you; simply that I'm finding it difficult to get my head around such a rediculous notion of a circumstance.

06-14-2006, 11:46 AM	#25
Balerius Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 259	Carnagh wrote: If my Brigand can deliver more ranged damage than a similarly pitched Ranger under any circumstances at all, then I'm gobsmacked and it needs addressed as a matter of priority. It shouldn't be possible in any way, shape or form. Have you whitnessed this happening? Or is this theory of how the numbers might stack up?... To get the double attack and reliable crits to work the way you describe requires heavy investment in two different trees.... I'm dubious not simply to nock you; simply that I'm finding it difficult to get my head around such a rediculous notion of a circumstance. I witness it every night. Your crit% chance AA is melee only. I didn't mention that AA since it wasn't relevant to my post. Your double attack AA that allows double attack on both melee and ranged attacks is level 4 and you can easily put 8 points into it without sacrificing much on other AA progression (i.e., you can still have traumatic swipe). Here's an example: You and a ranger auto attack with a bow that has a 6 second delay. You each do 1500 pts of "base" damage with your attack. Now assume the ranger has a 66% chance to crit. Assuming the ranger crits, as a rough outcome, the crit will result in a 33% increase in damage so the ranger's attack will actually do 2000 damage overall. This would equate to 2000/6 second = 333 dps But the rogue has a 66% chance to double attack and his attacks *each* do 1500 damage so he does 3000 damage overall. Bear in mind, the rogue also has a chance to crit on each of those attacks (although probably at a much lower rate than the ranger). Without counting a posible crit, the rogue did 3000/6 seconds = 500 dps. The rogue outdid the ranger by 166 dps or by 50%. Add haste to the equation. Each class benefits the same. Typically on raids players are maxed out on haste. Assuming for the sake of argument that the bow attack did the same damage as before, the ranger does 666 dps and the rogue does 1000 dps. The rogue out damages by the same 50% but the difference in dps is now 334 dps. Add dps modifiers to the equation in addition to haste from the previous example. If the ranger has a 20% dps increase buff placed on him by another class, then the ranger now did in 6 seconds 666 x 120% = 800 dps. The rogue with the same dps increase buff on him will do 1000 x 120% = 1200 dps over the same 6 second period. The difference is still 50% but the rogue is out-dpsing the ranger by 400 dps. Now add procs to the equation. The ranger gets a self-proc. The rogue may not. Otherwise, the chance to proc is the same for both characters except that the rogue gets a chance to proc on each double attack bow shot...the ranger does not (the rogue only procs on the second shot an applied proc that didn't proc on the first shot...but this is still "two bites of the apple"). So give the ranger 900 damage from his self proc over the 6 second period and 300 damage from applied procs. And give the rogue 0 damage from a self-proc but 450 damage from applied procs during the 6 seconds. The ranger now did 800 + (1200/6) = 1000 dps and the rogue did 1200 + (450/6) = 1266 dps. The above numbers are notional but representative. Those are the basic mechanics. And I didn't even count crits on the rogue. Or self dps and self proc modifiers on other classes. Those are the basic mechanics as to why swashbucklers/brigands and berzerkers can out-dps rangers with ranged attack. Play with the numbers all you want...you can't escape the difference that double attack makes. edit: typo Message Edited by Balerius on 06-14-2006 03:51 AM

06-14-2006, 01:34 PM	#26
Blarth Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 48	I think that with all these changes it makes it more fun. It sucks to have to work hard to become a threat on the dps ladder but thats what games are suppose to be...a challenge. Sometimes it gets dull and boring, like now but that is why they are always adding content. Also this game i about interacting with other people. Game On. __________________

06-14-2006, 02:22 PM	#27
Mary the Prophetess Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,472	I have always played a Ranger. Even in games that had no specific Ranger class, I have shaped my character into whatever is closest to the Ranger archetype. EQ2 is a terrific game, ( I honestly cannot point to any that is it's equal, much less, it's better). I have played since the opening day of EQLive. I would whole-heartedly recommend this game to anyone. And yet: I am now spending 80% of my time in DnL, (Dark and Light); perhaps the worst prepared and implimented game I have ever encountered, (and I have played them all). Bug ridden, under-staffed, barely playable, (yet absolutely HUGE); erratically patched, subject to hackers, frustratingly under-developed. Absolutely inferior to EQ2 in every way. Why?!! I don't really know. Masochistic? EQ burnout? Personal character flaw? I don't really know. Something has gone out of the game for me. I still keep my account active, I still play my Ranger a couple of times per week, but it just seems hollow, scripted, formulized. I am a Ranger, but I don't feel like one. All the various classes are being homoginized. (I suspect--and have stated before--because of PvP; though I am a proponent of PvP). I don't really care about DPS. I don't really care about raiding. I play solo. I always have, and I (most likely), always will. Why am I leaving a better game for a worse game? I don't know, other than to say that my time in Norrath, seems scripted and contrived. Luck in battle, until our paths should cross again. Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on 06-14-2006 10:13 AM

06-14-2006, 04:37 PM	#28
Balerius Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 259	Balerius wrote: Carnagh wrote: If my Brigand can deliver more ranged damage than a similarly pitched Ranger under any circumstances at all, then I'm gobsmacked and it needs addressed as a matter of priority. It shouldn't be possible in any way, shape or form. Have you whitnessed this happening? Or is this theory of how the numbers might stack up?... To get the double attack and reliable crits to work the way you describe requires heavy investment in two different trees.... I'm dubious not simply to nock you; simply that I'm finding it difficult to get my head around such a rediculous notion of a circumstance. I witness it every night. Your crit% chance AA is melee only. I didn't mention that AA since it wasn't relevant to my post. Your double attack AA that allows double attack on both melee and ranged attacks is level 4 and you can easily put 8 points into it without sacrificing much on other AA progression (i.e., you can still have traumatic swipe). Here's an example: You and a ranger auto attack with a bow that has a 6 second delay. You each do 1500 pts of "base" damage with your attack. Now assume the ranger has a 66% chance to crit. Assuming the ranger crits, as a rough outcome, the crit will result in a 33% increase in damage so the ranger's attack will actually do 2000 damage overall. This would equate to 2000/6 second = 333 dps But the rogue has a 66% chance to double attack and his attacks *each* do 1500 damage so he does 3000 damage overall. Bear in mind, the rogue also has a chance to crit on each of those attacks (although probably at a much lower rate than the ranger). Without counting a posible crit, the rogue did 3000/6 seconds = 500 dps. The rogue outdid the ranger by 166 dps or by 50%. Add haste to the equation. Each class benefits the same. Typically on raids players are maxed out on haste. Assuming for the sake of argument that the bow attack did the same damage as before, the ranger does 666 dps and the rogue does 1000 dps. The rogue out damages by the same 50% but the difference in dps is now 334 dps. Add dps modifiers to the equation in addition to haste from the previous example. If the ranger has a 20% dps increase buff placed on him by another class, then the ranger now did in 6 seconds 666 x 120% = 800 dps. The rogue with the same dps increase buff on him will do 1000 x 120% = 1200 dps over the same 6 second period. The difference is still 50% but the rogue is out-dpsing the ranger by 400 dps. Now add procs to the equation. The ranger gets a self-proc. The rogue may not. Otherwise, the chance to proc is the same for both characters except that the rogue gets a chance to proc on each double attack bow shot...the ranger does not (the rogue only procs on the second shot an applied proc that didn't proc on the first shot...but this is still "two bites of the apple"). So give the ranger 900 damage from his self proc over the 6 second period and 300 damage from applied procs. And give the rogue 0 damage from a self-proc but 450 damage from applied procs during the 6 seconds. The ranger now did 800 + (1200/6) = 1000 dps and the rogue did 1200 + (450/6) = 1266 dps. The above numbers are notional but representative. Those are the basic mechanics. And I didn't even count crits on the rogue. Or self dps and self proc modifiers on other classes. Those are the basic mechanics as to why swashbucklers/brigands and berzerkers can out-dps rangers with ranged attack. Play with the numbers all you want...you can't escape the difference that double attack makes. edit: typo Message Edited by Balerius on 06-14-2006 03:51 AM One thing I forgot to point out. In case anyone wants to question my initial assumption where the ranger in the above example crits his ranged attack and the rogue does a double attack....don't go there. The ranger with 8 points in his % crit chance AA gets a 22.4% increased chance to crit. Meanwhile, a rogue with 8 points in his % double attack chance AA receives a 66% chance to double attack. It's far more likely that a rogue will double attack than it is likely that a ranger will crit his ranged attack. So, if anything, the above analysis is skewed in favor of the ranger.

06-14-2006, 04:51 PM	#29
Teksun Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,048	Yes our aa's are lacking, but I am STILL hoping that our new abilities in NOV will make up for it. They are doing class specific lines, maybe they will do them right. __________________ Nerf the Hobbits

06-14-2006, 05:29 PM	#30
TwistedFaith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 892	Blarth wrote:I think that with all these changes it makes it more fun. It sucks tohave to work hard to become a threat on the dps ladder but thats whatgames are suppose to be...a challenge. Sometimes it gets dull andboring, like now but that is why they are always adding content. Alsothis game i about interacting with other people. Game On. Dont mistake people complaining about the class as us wanting rangers to be easy dps.Bottom line is the game mechanics are not there for rangers to be top DPS. I'd even accept this but more than the DPS, the joy of playing a ranger seems to be rapidly disapearing due to a series of nerfs that have nothing to do with our class or ruleset.