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05-17-2006, 10:43 AM
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#1 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 472
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Just wanted to come in here and really tell you guys that I appreciate your current position. I am a raid leader of a high end raiding guild, and I tell you its getting really tuff to find a spot for a ranger on a raid. They really pulled the rug out from under you guys recently. Only real way I can think of to fix you guys, at least in the raiding scene is to give you some kind of niche. Like able to use the range CAs you have from twice the distance of a wizard, or to make you AOE immune, or to give you debuffs, or maybe the ability to strap a nuke to your back and kamikaze real hard mobs for the raid :smileyvery-happy: As it now stands, putting in a swashy/brigand/assass/troub/dirge into the spot I usually save for a ranger just makes a lot more sense. GL tho on fighting the good fight, and ill drink a beer in hopes to them fixing rangers soon.
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05-17-2006, 01:02 PM
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#2 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 76
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If you say so, there are some tweaks that could be done and having fabled bows drop more than once in a blue moon would be nice, but perhaps your rangers haven't adapted to the changes? I'm not having problems competing with wizards for example.
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05-17-2006, 01:29 PM
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#3 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 395
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While I appreciate the sentiment, how is it that some of the top guilds in the game can still find space for Rangers? I doubt guilds like NPU, SD etc would run a class just for the sake of it - these are not just high end - they are most successful raid guilds in the game. I feel sorry for the Rangers in your guild it's believed that they are a [Removed for Content] class with little raid use. I also don't understand why a Dirge Dirge/Troub would be used in a DPS slot? I can understand throwing in another summoner / Wiz, Rogues (and even monks and bruisers as things stand) but i'm not seeing how a Troub/Dirge can fill that slot. If the situation stayed as it is now then I think Rangers need a little tweaking. Personally I believe there will be more changes to the DPS of other classes (downwards) before Rangers are revisited. I firmly believe wizzies as they stand now are the benchmark SoE is using to balance DPS - Wizzies presented evidence for months about the state of their class and little was changed. Then came the Proc changes - lowering the DPS of many classes but especially Rangers. Next it's the summoners and still we have very few changes to the wizzies. Once the dust has settled from the summoner changes I expect more classes will be tweaked. I could be wrong though Mirdo. |
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05-17-2006, 01:37 PM
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#4 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 90
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Heh, now we're getting condolences. But as the previous two guys stated, maybe its your rangers. Granted we're lumping a bit since the Big Bang at KOS release, but myself and the other guild ranger are wanted during guild raids and we do punch the mobs down pretty well. Also we are still the mob pulling class ( till they nerf surveilance 's 50th meter pull ) of preference.
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05-17-2006, 04:17 PM
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#5 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,149
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pretty much why my ranger took a back seat for my Guardian .. there isnt anything a Ranger does that another class can do as good, if not better.
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I heart DE Broads |
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05-17-2006, 05:23 PM
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#6 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6
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You know Even after all the DPS changes made to rangers, I still feel my ranger dose really good damage compared to the other dps classes (rouge assassin so on) A fabled bow Good poisons and the knowledge of best CA order + having rank 8 in AA poison crit chance and rank 8 in bow crit chance, Rangers defiantly still hold there own and then some. The problem with the upcoming (possible) changes I see (the stun change, root change so on) really mainly will effect the Solo ranger. Not that I don't solo, but I will adapt, and a group/raid is what makes any game funner (funner is a word now btw) |
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05-17-2006, 05:32 PM
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#7 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Delaware:Home of...Home of...we got stuff!
Posts: 1,527
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If you want to put a troub or a dirge in a dps slot that you "usually" save for a ranger...more power to you. Hey why not put a monk in there to or maybe a necro or conjuror...if you cant find room in a raid for a ranger you arent looking hard enough. So...thanks for the pity, didnt ask for it, and I dont have trouble getting in on raids when I try...maybe its my glowing personality that gets me in and not my bow. I apologize ahead of time for sounding a bit peeved about the pity post...but when someone in real life comes up to me and offers me pity for my effed up leg, I bristle...the same goes for this game...if you think we are gimped, then support us when we try to initiate changes, dont offer pity. Man...I am an a-hole today...sorry.. Sai
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05-17-2006, 06:21 PM
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#8 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 10
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Why would you feel for us.. while yes we have been nerfed a few times but its for the good of the game.. Now if you think all rangers are is invis lunge.. invis fire strike.. you're sadly mistaken.. a ranger has one thing going for them.. practicaly a risk free pull.. we pass aggro like its a community cigarette.. when you tanks out there get that thru your head you will see less wipes.. all the tank needs to do is assist the ranger and after the pull is over target the mob.. oooh 2 clicks.. and you keep aggro as soon as you taunt it.. this boggles the mind.. and as far as ive seen everyone is still reliving eqlive or something.. people base classes from that game.. guess what.. clue number one... this aint eqlive and the only thing this hurts is solo.. and it really doesnt even hurt that badly.. instead of relying on snare to bow kite something you should be fighting and not something you shouldnt just stagger your root and snare.. youll get hit a few times if your avoidance sucks but even still it wont hurt you.. you aint supposed to be able to beat down orange ^^^ But some shallow brained nerd who thinks some where that a sword weilding barry manilow should be better for a raid than a ranger is stupid beyond all comprehension
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05-17-2006, 06:21 PM
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#9 |
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General
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 605
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yeah what sai said. and if your rangers cant out DPS a troub/dirge then they suck as rangers nuff said |
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05-17-2006, 06:45 PM
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#10 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,083
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For some, perhaps. I find my fun in questing, and most groups just want to grind so I'm left being bored to tears or trying to solo green quests once the heroic mobs have greyed out.
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Gwyneth Lecarde 90 Warty Arrow Flinger 90 Sword Shiner Najena Morgasand Ka'Bael 54 Roswellian Mind Scrambler 87 Shield Polisher Najena |
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05-17-2006, 06:49 PM
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#11 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 10
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thats what guilds are for.... |
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05-17-2006, 07:07 PM
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#12 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4
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I don't think he means Rangers can't raid, but if you are putting together a raid for max effectiveness then Rangers will probably be sitting on the bench. Sure your Guilds will let you raid with them but that's not his point I think. And besides that I don't think it's a good argument for our dps by saying get such and such weapons, bow, whatever. Maybe I just got lazy but I don't want to have to min/max stats, gear, weapons, arrows, poisons etc, just to be within range of other T1 DPS.
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05-17-2006, 07:16 PM
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#13 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 760
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Thankfully there are only a handful of raiding guilds who are actually that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about their raid roster.Considering I'm rarely out-DPSd by anyone but summoners (and they're getting shafted in the next update), I'd have to say I'm confused by the OPs pity.Pity solo rangers, who are having their mediocre control spells nerfed.Pity summoners, cuz they're getting knocked off the top of the mountain.Pity sorcerers, cuz their agro control is a joke.But plz don't pity me, cuz I sure as hell don't need it.
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" I constanly read these forums and seeing your stupid sig starting too get to me" - finedork  
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05-17-2006, 07:28 PM
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#14 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 308
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There are enough raids where rangers have an advantage because they are ranged. I can think of mobs who have huge damage shields who will just kill your melee if they would go melee it. Mobs with short melee AE's realy hurt too. Rangers realy have an advantage to other melee classes on those mobs. A perfect raid needs every class or you at least try to reach that point. And saying that you would replace the only ranger in your raid by another class says enough how much you know about raiding.
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05-17-2006, 08:04 PM
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#15 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,144
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Try not to be too rough on the OP. He intentions are good. And, I totally understand where he's coming from. If I was a raid leader and I had a DPS group with 5 DPS classes in it already with one slot open. It makes sense to fill that last slot with a troub/dirge instead of a Ranger. The troub/dirge, although not a dps class, could potentially double that entire groups dps output with their buffs as well as increase the entire raid's dps ouput by debuffing the mobs. On the other hand, the Ranger only brings his or her dps and pretty much nothing else. This is a totally hypothetical scenario. I know no raid leader would ever build a dps group no dps buff classes so save the critique. Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit with the doubling of the dps, but still, the bard will increase the raids overall dps much more than the Ranger will. I'm not complaining about what we bring to the raid and I've never been kicked from a raid. But I do understand where the OP is coming from and appreciate the sentiment. I also understand why many of us are a little defensive towards his remarks. Many of us play Rangers because it fits our "take control of your own destiny" personalities. As a result, posts like the OP's tend to sting our pride a bit.
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Leader of the vast right-wing conspiricy... Hiding from the world's smartest woman in a bunker under a Hooter's restaurant. |
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05-17-2006, 09:31 PM
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#16 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 95
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I have voiced the same concern in other posts, and most the time its met with replies about not being a true ranger fan, or wanting to be dps kings again. And as some pointed out, it's true that most guild wouldn't kick a competent ranger, as there dps is in line. But my complaints are more about our utility and value to a raid. Sure this might not affect 90% of rangers out there, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed. We bring good dps to a raid no doubt, but we don't bring much else. We have like 2 debuffs, an agro sucking bird, a 50m de-agro pull, and a short range unobstructed atk. With classes that can pet pull, monks w/ FD and tsunami, our pulling days are over when we are cut back to 35m. As for mircle arrow, it's hardly a necessity, and more often than not just a work around to aviod doing something the way it was intended. Our debuffs are nothing special, most classes prolly don't even know we have any at all. The bird sucks agro from non-fighters is nice, but to be honest on all the raids I've never really noticed a difference. I do notice that when he dies, I jump right up to the top. But the wizzy, even with bird sucking, are still pulling agro as often. Did I mention the bird sucking, because that's what he does, he sucks...agro...apparently. That brings us to our dps. Well this is what we are known for, and you can all argue this way and that, but our dps is competitive enough that we still get included on raids. What isn't mentioned is that all the other dps that we compete with have far more group utility than we do. If you can name another class that can match our dps, but has less group/raid utility feel free to let me know. It would certainly shut me up real fast. And I'm sure there are more than a few that wouldn't mind that. Ok case and point....our dps is good, our utility is not. As raids try to become more effecient the fat gets trimmed. If you can bring in a class that can match our dps and has more utility, then why keep a ranger. If you can bring in a class that can dramatically buff/debuff to the point where the entire raid is doing more dps even w/ a ranger, then why keep the ranger. Most guilds this won't be a problem, so far it's not for mine. But I make sure as all heck I'm on time for raids and that I make every one of them. It seems to me that it wouldn't be the end of the world to give rangers a little more utility. In fact I wouldn't mind if our bird skill was adjusted to sipheon much more agro. Almost like a dispatch for agro. Plus it kinda goes along with assassin's and their hate transfer. If our bird was as useful/noticable as assassin hate transfer, I think I would be less a grump. If that's even possible. -Katsugen failure to proofread ftl (spelling) Message Edited by Katsugen on 05-17-2006 10:38 AM (grammar)
Message Edited by Katsugen on 05-17-2006 10:41 AM |
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05-17-2006, 09:52 PM
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#17 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 276
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Wow. Thanks but no thanks! I would hate to be a ranger in your guild though. While I am not doing damage like I did when the poison proc was bugged I am still doing a lot of damage. I generally parse in the top 5, anywhere from 1-5, in a guild that sports several well played assassins and wizards, an outstanding swashbuckler and conjurer. Sure I am not hitting the 1K mark like some do but I generally stay in the 7-800 range unless I get real lucky or real unlucky on my crits and procs. The poor warlock when he parses too high takes a whooping! /hug my aggro reduction CAs. Course our guild necro has returned to the game so now I gotta work against him too  I enjoy the ranger. Do decent damage. And I think I am needed. Plus, need someone to loot all those Fabled bows.. oh wait... nevermind
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05-17-2006, 11:02 PM
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#18 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,039
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That post is going to put me into a depression.. While rangers do have our problems and bugs. Our dps is fine. I am only outdamaged by people with more masters, higher str, higher int. I outdamage those with lower gear.. Its that simple. It does not bother me that there are solo changes underway, it just means I cant use rangersblade and emberstrike on the same attack. BIG DEAL!If you want pitty, pitty on us because I want a level 70 stream of arrow line that works, or having primal agility toggle on and off when I click it.Also - if its that bad, get your rangers a new bow!
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RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006 |
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05-17-2006, 11:30 PM
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#19 |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 45
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Im not having any DPS issues here. Im in a high-end raiding guild and i consistantly parse in the top 3 for dps and often times take the #1 spot. On mobs like Hurricannus, I put everyone else in the raid to shame DPS-wise. Given, a lot of DPS is situational, but i still have no complaints. If SOE did give us more damage/utility, i obviously wont complain, but im not asking for it.
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05-18-2006, 12:16 AM
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#20 |
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General
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,137
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Hehe, so to alleviate any excessive whining in the future, have a third party come in and offer sympathy, eh? Brilliant!! Anyway, thanks for the kind thoughts, I know you mean well. Unfortunately, the OP has a valid point - that rangers don't really bring anything unique to the raid scene. While that doesn't exactly merit pity, it is a lamentable issue that some of us face. Thankfully, most of us can and do raid with friends and guildies, and aren't stuck in a ruthless situation where effectiveness is the sole guarantor of participation.
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05-18-2006, 12:41 AM
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#21 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 472
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Hehe, so to alleviate any excessive whining in the future, have a third party come in and offer sympathy, eh? Brilliant!! - Quote' You hit the nail right on the head there! :smileywink:
Actually this is interesting...I just really posted to see the reaction of raiding rangers. All I have seen on the boards for the last 3-4weeks since the nerfs was complaining, upon complaining. In fact I saw a post that went to about 16 pages complaining about the hit the rangers took. Yes my 2 rangers can parse in the top 3-5 people in the raid, and thats fine, and I do make a spot for them...BUT my brigand can come to almost the same level of DPS, and do a lot more in the area of Debuffs. Im actually pleasantly surprised that I got this kind of reaction from the raiding rangers. I thought I might, its always how it goes. Its ok to complain about a class if its your class, but people tend to stick together if another class has a comment on it. Kudos to all of you tho for sticking it thrue. Personally I still stick with the statement that I hope they add something to the ranger class, because right now a Wizard = Ranger in DPS ( I think we can all agree on that ) BUT even a wizard brings more versatility to the fights including range combat. My idea would be just throw 2 decent debuffs in your CAs and reduce the casting time of Snipers Line and I think you'd have it, maybe just maybe a really nice grp buff too. :smileyvery-happy: Keep up the good fight either way tho!!! Message Edited by TanRaistlyn on 05-17-2006 01:42 PM |
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05-18-2006, 01:06 AM
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#22 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,039
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Your on the same server I am. I will talk about what was up, and what has changed our mind about the game.. The rangers who are in a woe is me type of state are a minority here.
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RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006 |
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05-18-2006, 02:20 AM
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#23 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost
Posts: 1,306
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Heh people jump all over a guy who has some sympathy for us. Woot. Why does believing we have some issues with our class make us pity-party fools or simpletons? A lot of raiding rangers have posted issues with their roles. I happen to believe we don't need a lot of adjustment, but we're still short. There's at least 5 or 6 classes which can match our dps who are not a sorceror or assassin and who bring a lot more to a raid than just damage. Why wouldn't a raid leader want those instead of us, if he had to make a choice? Plus, we have to buy all these #!@#@! arrows to do it. If you can parse #1 in your raid, good, that's awesome. In my raid, I know the assassin, necromancer, conjuror and wizard will all outparse me if they are trying and I'm trying. I can get up to the 800-1000dps range, but they are above that 10-20%. I think our gear and skill is about equal. Hell, the summoners can DIE and still beat me. Yes, they're going to get toned down a bit, so we'll have to see where it ends up. I don't think it will have as much of an affect as some people seem to think. I would like to see us tuned up a bit to be equal to wizards and assassins, because I don't think we are. I still do plenty of DPS, enough that in my guild's raids, they want me along and I feel like I'm doing something. So it's not a personal issue for me. But I could easily see in a large raiding guild, where you have let's say 30 or 35 people wanting to go on a raid, that it would be a much smarter idea to bring along one of the near-equal DPS classes rather than a Ranger. The OP is simply pointing this out, and I agree with him. I see some people posting that their Ranger gets 1500 dps on most fights, but nobody shares their techniques to do this. I have experimented a lot and can't reach that on for example a single target raid boss. If you can do that, I'd love to hear how. Message Edited by Xney on 05-17-2006 03:21 PM |
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05-18-2006, 03:12 AM
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#24 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,083
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I'm in one. A small one, with my friends, and I'm happy slowly working it up in levels through writs and the HQs I can manage to get done. My fun is being in this small guild, and doing these quests where I can. I'm disagreeing with your statement that grouping is more fun, because in my point of view, it's not. So since I am a solo ranger, these changes are going to greatly affect the way I play and what I can manage to do.
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Gwyneth Lecarde 90 Warty Arrow Flinger 90 Sword Shiner Najena Morgasand Ka'Bael 54 Roswellian Mind Scrambler 87 Shield Polisher Najena |
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05-18-2006, 06:55 AM
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#25 |
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General
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 140
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Miracle Arrow line of CA's
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05-18-2006, 08:17 AM
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#26 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 170
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Or do you guys all think that dissolution isnt high end enough for me to state this fact???
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Kobal...Bezerker of Dissolution Axkiva Min...Ranger of Dissolution...(retired: class currently crap) Siegfreid... Monk of Ye Drunken Horde Kazzi... Defiler of Ye Drunken Horde |
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05-18-2006, 09:48 AM
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#27 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 96
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I'm confused. I'm not a Ranger/Assassin expert but several people have mentioned that rangers don't bring that much utility, if any, to a raid. So assassins do? And why would they be outdpsing rangers? Aren't the skill trees roughly the same, with rangers mostly bow and assassins melee? In fact, doesn't the AA line that gives crits to bows go to a higher percentage than the melee crit line? Not trying to provoke, I don't even play either. Just curious since I was thinking of starting a scout character. Message Edited by Hurdoc on 05-18-2006 01:49 AM |
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05-18-2006, 10:21 AM
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#28 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 76
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Nerfs come and nerfs go. A well played assassin will out dps a well played ranger at the moment, the skills trees and dps are roughly the same, but the non rough edges favor assassins at the moment if they play thier class equally well. A few live updates ago rangers would bury assassin dps even if they played their class poorly to be totally blunt about it. /shrug, highest of high end guilds - retired ranger in favor of a zerker - how long til soe takes note of how insane their dps can be for a tank class and they get nerfed? Summoners are on the chopping block at the moment, and much as I hate seeing nerfs, zerkers and brawlers are likely to be next. Unless your kicking people from guild/raids for not doing bleeding edge flavor of the month dps, the state rangers are in right now is not that bad. I'm in my class for the long run and things are not that bad lately if you know what your doing.
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05-18-2006, 05:55 PM
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#29 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 760
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I'm just glad as hell I play my ranger because I enjoy the class, and not because it's not the monthly flavor summoners are.Are all the raiding guild summoners gonna retire their chars after LU#24 because they have trouble breaking 1k DPS? lol
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" I constanly read these forums and seeing your stupid sig starting too get to me" - finedork
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05-18-2006, 07:20 PM
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#30 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Nektulos
Posts: 48
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Hey Axkiva.. Wondered where you had gotten off to.. Hope you are enjoying the Zerker? I know the STR and ability to Bezerk are always welcome buffs to DPS. Hope you unretire Ax eventually, but with the current outlook it might be a while before a ranger sees a NEED in raiding guilds for his presence. And Yes, Dissolution is, in my opinion, THE High End Raiding Guild.
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