Can defilers compete at keeping people standing?

[Fiflif]

Greetings all,

I've been playing defiler to get a feel for priests (Came from illusionist)  and up to 25. I am having a lot of trouble keeping shadowknights in my team standing in Fallen gate. These shadowknights are also using all steel armor, which most dismayed me when I inspected. My ward is Master 1.  My ward can't recharge fast enough to keep it up and I end up getting really low in hit points trying to keep the fighters standing.  When I mix in my debuffs to help mitigate the damage, I end up out of health AND power , and no one likes having to wait for me to regen my power.

 

Do things get better? The reactives I see templars/inquisitors using in Runny eye( I know a late comparison but thats the first time I teamed with them) on my illusionist makes them look really powerful and like they have no trouble at all keeping fighters standing.

 

 

Overall I am loving the concept, and the spell effects for the defiler. Also RPing as a crazy ratonga that talks to spirit animals is great fun. So I am hoping things won't be staying this frustrating forever. Thanks!

Message Edited by Fifliffl on 10-04-2006 07:22 PM

[Lord Hackenslash]

for background, I have a 70 defiler ...

 

just wondering from your post, do you use heals or just wards.

 

Yes things get alot easier at higher levels as you get more new spells but you need to learn the tools of the trade. Its something that comes in time. If you enjoy the class it will work itself out. I have no trouble solo healing in any zone that can be done with only one healer.

[Facedown]

A lot of it can do with the tank you are trying to keep alive. If hes not well equiped, your job will be a LOT harder. Ive grouped with a few tanks at 70 in mostly magic gear and, I have problems keeping them alive. I know my class inside and out and sometimes, its just all the tanks fault At 70 with some masters and good gear, you are capable single healing every instances or zone with the exception of nizara, and raid mobs

[Turb]

You have two wards - single and group - and two spot heals. Use them all.If the tank is reasonably equipped, and you're fighting yellow con mobs, that should be enough to keep him alive easily enough. Is the tank sword and board and in defensive stance?My experience at that level was that by just cycling single and group wards, adding the odd spot heal, you should be fine. Remember to cure as well, though it's not so important at your level.Get your 4 key healing spells to Adept III or better. Gems are cheap on brokers.

[Fiflif]

Thank you guys! I never thought to use the group ward for just the tank too.

 

Gotta work on getting the heals upgraded better too

 

 

[Jenguro]

As a Shaman it is important to use both your single and group wards (usually use them in that order).  When your single ward drops, your group ward should still be up, and give you enough time to recast the single ward.  Eventually you'll get a feel for how quickly you need to cast each of them, and when you have time to cast debuffs inbetween.  I had some trouble early with power conservation, but it hasn't been a problem 50+.  One thing that helps is to have the spell effects window up if you don't, that way you can see which wards are still up and how much time is remaining on them before they need to be recast; wards last 30 seconds regardless of damage, and the window tracks time rather than damage, so remember to start casting the next ward when the first one drops.

 

Defilers are arguably the best at keeping the tank standing *if* the situation is under control and you have time to fully ward.  It's when the wards have dropped and haven't refreshed that you'll have to go to your "emercency wards" (the ones that cast instantly and refresh slowly) and other tricks.  Good luck!

[arieste]

further to what someone mentioned about being able to solo heal every group instance except nizara.

 

I do know a defiler that solo heals nizara.  Sadly it's not me, since I don't have a regular (or even semi-regular group for niz) but it is definitely doable.

 

So that makes EVERY group instance that can be solo healer by a defiler

[oltock]

This is slightly off-topic, but does any one know of or use a UI mod that shows how much HP is left on a ward?  Knowing the time left is well and good if your tank isn't taking enough damage to exhaust the ward, but on tough encounters I'd like to be able to glance up and see how much HP is left on it without having to mouse over it in order to begin casting my next ward or heal before the ward is used up.

[Landaros]

You dont need to use any UI mods since you can see the remaining charges / HPs when you mouseover the small icons  in the maintained and/or the other bar.

[oltock]

Sorry if this comes off as snide, that's not my intention.  I'm fully aware that you can mouse over the buff and see how much HP is left on it, but I'm looking to find out if there's a UI mod that will show how much HP is left on all of my wards without having to mouse over them.   I like to have as much information on the screen at once as I possibly can when I'm healing.

[DeepWalk]

Not too much further into Defiler, you'll also get the Bane of Shielding line, which is invaluable for keeping the tank up....in short, a debuff cast on the mob that gives it a 10% chance any time it hits to put a medium-strength ward on the target of attack. Needless to say, this can come in handy when the MT drops or loses aggro to the overnuking wizzie in the back. Not to mention, it's essentially a free ward. If you go down the STR line of AAs, your pet can also get a ward proc on attack (even though the description says it procs when hit, we all know how well the pet takes hits...) 24% max chance, and it gives all group members an individual ward...dang shame our group ward doesn't work that way...ah, well. Spiritual Circle is gained in the high 50s, and is a "limited pet" totem...looks like a glowing prism floating in the air...emits a ward for all raid+group members in range every 5 seconds (at 58 with adept1, getting 511 per pulse..not too shabby)So basically, combining standard ward casts, as mentioned above, with some of the procs and non-direct warding can mean a very happy tank. Oh, and don't forget that wards work great as cover for the actual heals and for 2nd healers to get their HoTs and Vitaes to do their work without seeing too much red first

[Argyuile]

    I agree the the quality of the tank is a problem.   Ive slept through Nek castle with some tanks and had the tank die on me 3-4 times.   Everything I'm doing is the same, but crappy gear is crappy gear.

[Kinvore]

There could be a lot of reasons for the problems you're having, aside from the issues raised above.  Was the tank in defensive stance?  Was he using a shield and 1-hander?  Are you also curing debuffs?  Those can do some nasty damage.  What is your WIS / power like?  That  one may be a no-brainer but it helps.  Also, you need to keep those mobs debuffed as well.  Start off with your best attack speed debuff and go from there, don't bother with damage.For debuffs on group members I use the Fetish Nightfall custom UI.  All I gotta do is click on the debuff symbol in my group window and it will automatically cast the cure for that debuff.  It really saves time.I never had trouble keeping anyone up unless they were red con mobs but maybe I'm just special. Pouncer70 AssassinCrippler68 Defiler

[Macibaru]

I doubt it's gear for the OP, if the tanks are wearing full steel as he described. That's some really good gear for those levels. It sounds to me more that he's just not using his group/solo wards to their full potential, and I think he understands that now. But, just to help out a little more, in case he's still having any difficulty, a tactic I would suggest for around 25 in FG would be the following:If the tank is pulling with a taunt...Preward the tank with your solo ward, before he goes to pull.As he's incoming, begin casting your group ward.When done, Nuke with Noxious debuff nuke (imprecation line)Recast Solo Ward (should have just gone).Slow and Repulse the mob (debuff)Refresh Group Ward (should have just dropped)HO (mob should be dead after this, if not before, but if not)Refresh Solo Ward.If the tank is body pulling...Preward with your group ward, the mobs are going to come after you about 50% of the time when they get back into camp, but the tank should be able to get them off almost instantly with a single taunt. Some of the times, if a DPS class nukes too early, this will save them on a body pull.When he gets back to camp, solo ward the tank (even if the mobs are on you)When done, refresh group ward (if available, if not do next step THEN refresh group ward)Nuke with Noxious Debuff nuke (Imprecation Line)Slow and Repuls the mob (debuff)Recast Solo Ward (should have just gone)HO (Mob should be dead after this, if not before, but if not)Refresh Group WardIf you follow that tactic, that should be good enough to get you through 98% of fights with a good tank in decent gear. If you get into trouble with a bad pull or some bad adds, use your heals ONLY while you are waiting for your group ward to refresh. I try and do a spot heal (Balm line) first, just to give me enough time to cast an Aid or ward as needed, and then finish it off with a group heal (you don't have that yet, I don't think) ONLY after recasting the group and solo wards. The Wards are the most effecient and most effective way you have to keep people alive, so NEVER cast a heal when you could cast a ward instead. Don't be afraid to use your emergency ward rather than a heal if neither of your other wards are refreshed yet, or you don't think you have time to get off a solo or group ward before the tank (or mage) will go down. The refresh time on the emergency ward is a while, but the situations that you need it are infrequent enough (assuming you have a good tank in decent gear) that you shouldn't ever need it and not have it refreshed.I hope this helps.EDIT: Oh, and to answer your initial question. Defilers can't compete at keeping people standing. We EXCEL at keeping people standing. From my own experiences, I would say that there's almost no contest.

Message Edited by Macibaru on 10-06-2006 09:02 AM

[Zendi_Perma]

All I know is that we did a pickup labs trash run all the way to the first Gazer named mob.   The last 3rd of the raid we had only 2 groups and 2 healers, a defiler in each group.

[sostrows]

i seem to remember running out of mana till about ~35.  it certainly is not an issue later on.sages should be able to make your A3 wards, debuffs and heals fairly easily and cheaply.here is a line of what lines we get and when...pretty much correct.  things get better and you get more tools later on.///1+ Balm line = fast small heal1+ Imprecation line = disease nuke + noxious debuff2+ Curse line = single target DPS & attack speed slow debuff3+ Malaise line = poison dot & WIS debuff3+ Sacrificial Heal line = big slow heal at cost of self health4+ Fortune line = single target & conc slot buff for HP & mana.  Can be cast on multiple targets including self.5+ Shroud line = group buff & conc slot for AC & regenerating magic ward7+ Repulsion line = single target mob stat debuff12+ solo ward line = single target ward13+ Chant line = pbae fear & threat reduction (affects Epics)14+ Accretion line = medium speed grp heal15+ Efflux line = group buff & conc slot for HP & noxious resist18+ Vehemence line = group buff & conc slot for STR & HP20+ Countenance line = wraith form & self incombat HP regen20+ pet dog & AAs23+ Fulginous line = disease dot & mob attack speed slow24+ bane of shielding reverse ward proc28+ grp ward line = slow casting ward that protect full grp.  about 2x more powerful than single ward29+ soul line = proc damage on healing mobs & HP regen item32+ aphotic disease ae dot35+ umbral trap = Bloodline mob DPS debuff.  duration 72 seconds is double normal debuff time.35+ tendrils line = reverse DPS slow proc placed on one group member41+ avenger line = will save a group member from a kill shot with a small heal and ward.  spawned pet useless.45+ invective line = proc buff on one grp member that will disease DOT mob47+ Seal line = single target stat debuff that lasts for 72 seconds48+ group instant ward with 10 meter short range50+ Maelstrom line = disease ae DOT & grp mana regen.  caster is silenced during spell though.52+ forced cannibilization = small disease DOT that gives power to defiler55+ Voice of Ancestors = group de-control spell56+ Mail line = group noxious detox58+ Spiritual circle ward pet = regenerates grp ward for duration of pet65+ Defile = disease pbae DOT that increases damage as mob is lower in health

[Supa Mint Flava]

Some very good advice from above posters.  As you can see, Defiler is one of those classes where it's very easy to play very poorly.  This is true to some extent of a lot of classes, but Defiler seems to really be a good example of it.  It's not an easy class to play, but when played well is extremely effective which is why it's my favorite (I have a lot of high level toons).

But things get a lot better later on.  Have fun.

[overfloat]

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oltock wrote:

I'm looking to find out if there's a UI mod that will show how much HP is left on all of my wards without having to mouse over them.

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I would kill for a UI mod like this (and I generally hate modding my UI, which goes to show!). Unfortunately, last I checked EQ2Interface.com there were no mods supporting it.

I did search their forums at the time and there were several inquiries about such a UI feature. The consensus opinion from the UI buiders was that the "ward remaining" value wasn't a dynamic data element that SOE made available for UI mods... I don't know how it all works, don't ask me, that's just what they said. It would be incredibly helpful if it ever was available though.

[djinnz]

read the 1st post and skimmed the rest apologies if this has already been said:

 

my experience of grouping at all levels below the cap is that the single most important thing when it comes to how much you are going to heal is that the mob does not con orange to your tank. you dont mention your tanks level if this is the case that is the problem

 

otherwise for defilers solo healing there is always a sweet spot where you can keep your tank up for the most part by chaining wards, if your in this range, you have time to debuff and your power will stay nicely imbalance with the rest of the group. however if your fighting a mob that puts out in excess of your wards you will have to put in heals inbetween wards which reduce your time to debuff (and at later levels cast mana regen spells) this will almost always mean your falling behind the group in power.

 

dont be to hard on your self, there is more to keeping a tank up than just the healer, just about all chars have spells which stun stifle slow or buffs that absorb an attack or give power back to the group. in my experience of alot of players dont use these and just do what they see as thier main role. then go on to complain when the group doesnt do well, they basically expect the tank and healer to mash buttons while they chill out and click  nuke every 30 secs. you can be sure that defiler who is solo healing nizara is doing so with an attentive and skilled group of players

[Argyuile]

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overfloater wrote:

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oltock wrote:

I'm looking to find out if there's a UI mod that will show how much HP is left on all of my wards without having to mouse over them.

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I would kill for a UI mod like this (and I generally hate modding my UI, which goes to show!). Unfortunately, last I checked EQ2Interface.com there were no mods supporting it.

I did search their forums at the time and there were several inquiries about such a UI feature. The consensus opinion from the UI buiders was that the "ward remaining" value wasn't a dynamic data element that SOE made available for UI mods... I don't know how it all works, don't ask me, that's just what they said. It would be incredibly helpful if it ever was available though.

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It just means that the little number we see for how many points remaining in the ward when we do the mouseover isnt accessible in any way to the people doing the UI mods and until it is we wont see a UI mod with that feature.