Sandstorm costs too much power

mikemcmodmi · 12-01-2006, 12:39 PM

Hello,

Me again. On the forums to do more complaining. This time the topic is sandstorm. I think it costs too much power.

Here's the thing. Right now in raids all the wardens I know who raid don't cast this spell at all, or they cast duststorm the level 45 version of the spell. This just seems wrong. The power cost to this spell is too prohibitive.

Duststorm - 9 power to cast and 9 power every 2 seconds

Sandstorm - 12 power to cast and 12 power every 2 seconds

The low power cost per 2 seconds is misleading. Over a 3 minute fight which is what I'd call average raid depending on the mob the total power cost is 819 power for duststorm and 1092 for sandstorm. The other problem is if the fight is longer then that then we become the healer that's out of power first, despite all our efficient heals.

I was looking forward to this spell now that the defense cap has been raised, but my testing shows this spell is inefficient unless the fight is really short. I'd suggest changing the spell to 9 and 12 power every 5 seconds. This seems more logical. Make it cost power per tick instead of per 2 seconds. I rarely use this spell in groups because of the power cost too....

Skivley101 · 12-01-2006, 12:51 PM

Well since were on the subject of higher teir spells being obsolete due to pwr costs

How bout Verdant whisper vs Verdant gasp

I have both adept 3 but have never used verdant gasp because of the pwr cost 80 more pwr is to costly when verdant whisper is still cureing everything.

Arielle Nightshade · 12-01-2006, 01:46 PM

I bow to other more technically savvy Wardens, but the reason you'd use Sandstorm over Duststorm - especially post EoF is for resistability problems with the lower tiered spell. Not a number cruncher here, but in field tests it 'seems like' Sandstorm is the better of the two at 70. We rarely have power issues, in my experience, even with this spell running full blast.

Same thing with Verdant Gasp over Verdant Whisper.

Interested to hear real facts, though.

Message Edited by Arielle Nightshade on 12-01-2006 12:47 AM

Skivley101 · 12-01-2006, 01:59 PM

Well as far as the Sandstorm....id have to agree with Ariel on that one ..... i still use sandstorm even in raids...kind of sparingly though due to not wanting to get locked down unless the tank is definatley set and not gona get kicked around.

As far as verdant whisper.....i have yet to see it fail in any content .....(maybe there is some stuff in EoF it requires) dont know yet. So why spend the extra 80 pwr. If your using Verdant Gasp, I urge you to try out Verdant Whisper some time.....has worked fine for me in All KoS content.

Arielle Nightshade · 12-01-2006, 02:10 PM

Skivley101 wrote:

Well as far as the Sandstorm....id have to agree with Ariel on that one ..... i still use sandstorm even in raids...kind of sparingly though due to not wanting to get locked down unless the tank is definatley set and not gona get kicked around.

As far as verdant whisper.....i have yet to see it fail in any content .....(maybe there is some stuff in EoF it requires) dont know yet. So why spend the extra 80 pwr. If your using Verdant Gasp, I urge you to try out Verdant Whisper some time.....has worked fine for me in All KoS content.

Well..when the DoT absolutely, positively HAS to come off, or your Tank dies (..thinking Halls of Fate here, or if you PvP against a brigand with Debilitate (which is the same spell that big droag lying on the table..whose name I can't remember...uses) ) I'm leaning toward the higher leveled spell. I don't want a 'oops...it didn't come off, let me try recasting again' situation when my group has every DoT in the game on them ..in a PvP situation, either.

But I am open minded, and I will give Verdant Gasp a try out and see if and/or how it differs.

Again, power isn't a huge issue for us, I don't think...or maybe I've played Defiler for too long (LOL). I do raid a little bit (yeah, yeah, I know....) and would probably not put Sandstorm up unless whatever group I was in REALLLY needed the spell for it's full duration due to the power cost. The knockback isn't going to work..so is the avoidance worth it vs. the power cost?

My pettest peeve with Sandstorm is the one you mention here: If I put it on, I think i should be rooted in place. That means anchored. If I am rooted to my detriment (meaning I can't reposition or move without clicking the spell off of me), then I should be rooted in my favor too. For example, if I have Sandstorm on and I am booted off a hill, when I land, I am rooted there. I have to click the spell off and run back to where I was. If I was rooted when I was knocked off, why am I rooted where I land? I would think unable to move is unable to move. It doesn't stun me, it roots me. /deep breath. The only change I'd like to see in that spell is this.

/rerail.

I'll give the lower tiered version of Verdant Gasp a look-see..thanks for the suggestion.

Drizz · 12-01-2006, 04:22 PM

Duststorm used to be every tic 15 sec before LU 13, Never understood why it was changed to such fast tics, with situations where its useful now are so rare, only spot i really found it useful was way back in DoF on the last floor of PPR on the large orange skeleton groups.

As for Verdant Sigh (42) Vs Verdant Grasp (70) There is zero reason to waste the extra power curing if you have M1 cure of Verdant Sigh, as it will cure any mob level 76 or lower. However, if you have the Remedie Line AA, the higher version you use, the better bonus you get

Verdant Sigh (42) (228 Power) *Note i have a bit of Ministration so the power cost may be higher for you.

315 Physical Mitigation

630 Elemental

Verdant Gasp (369 Power)

525 Physical Mitigation

1050 Elemental

If you dont plan on getting the Remedies line, there is zero need to waste more power, unless you encounter a mob Level 77 or higher. (I dont have the 56 version as never saw a need to buy it, its obviously somewhere imbetween the two)

Skivley101 · 12-01-2006, 10:44 PM

Woot.....cureing 76 lvls for 73 less pwr.....I rushed right out and found Verdant sigh Master1 for 60 gold.....score!!!

thanx for that info.

Getting back to the sandstorm.....I guess my brain was still thinking with the old pwr cost on that one....wow they did nerf this....more than twice the power cost and half the effect radius...........even though the 50 meters was hardly ever used to that distance.

But my duststorm is adept1....and my sandstorm is master1.....with a difference of 12 defense for the pwr cost i will allways go for the more defense.....but someone else with master1 would probly go the otherway.

And i cant see buying the master1 at this point for such a situational spell.

And ya it should make us immune to knockback.......its bad enough when your trying to be at max heal range....and you have to yell at your tank not to move an inch.........It works to keep us in place when we get feared though.

stargazer5678 · 12-01-2006, 11:34 PM

I agree with Mike that Sandstorm is not power effecient. I rarely cast it even in groups and here is why. If the fight is tough it means I have a lot of healing to do. In most cases I would prefer to have more power rather then provide a defensive benefit and then run oop. In a short and easy fight there is no danger to run oop but since the fight is easy no need to cast Sandstorm at all. The only real benefit (I feel) is provided in Sandstorm when fighting against a grouped target (3 or more). The increased defense gives more benefit to the tank (since several mobs have harder time to attack him) plus interrupts also give more benefit. I think it makes sense to use Sandstorm for a short period of time and then cancel it. For example, in raids cast it on the pull (tank usually gets more damage so it's more important to keep him up on the pull) and the cancel it after 5 seconds.

Leshii

Fromingo · 12-02-2006, 01:20 AM

I saw raiders posting how they had 9-10K power on raids. Losing 1.1K power over the span of a 3 min raid fight doesn't seem like much to them. Probably unrealistic to expect 5 sec ticks. Maybe 2.5 sec ticks.

mikemcmodmi · 12-02-2006, 01:27 AM

Well I used to use the lower lvled group cure too, but now with the remedies line for AAs you're better off using the level 70 cure. The higher the level of cure the more mitigation it adds.

Really the power cost of sandstorm has been an issue since T6 but people rarely used the spell so people weren't complaining. Now that defense is uncapped as a Warden you're expected to use the spell for defense but the power cost is ridiculous. As a Warden using sandstorm you run out of power first out of G1 healers. That tells me the power cost is way too much. Using this spell negates our advantage of efficient heals and makes us the more inefficient healer.

The other thing is this wouldn't overpower wardens for pvp. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe wardens cast this spell in pvp now as it is and don't have problems. The fights are shorter so the huge power cost is only hurting us in raids. So really there's no downside to reducing the power cost. It wouldn't overpower us in pvp just strength us in raid buffing.

12-01-2006, 12:51 PM	#2
Skivley101 Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: @ the desk Posts: 1,051	Well since were on the subject of higher teir spells being obsolete due to pwr costs How bout Verdant whisper vs Verdant gasp I have both adept 3 but have never used verdant gasp because of the pwr cost 80 more pwr is to costly when verdant whisper is still cureing everything. __________________ Barbarian~ LvL 75 Warden ,LvL 75 Provisioner, LvL 101 smak talker

12-01-2006, 01:59 PM	#4
Skivley101 Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: @ the desk Posts: 1,051	Well as far as the Sandstorm....id have to agree with Ariel on that one ..... i still use sandstorm even in raids...kind of sparingly though due to not wanting to get locked down unless the tank is definatley set and not gona get kicked around. As far as verdant whisper.....i have yet to see it fail in any content .....(maybe there is some stuff in EoF it requires) dont know yet. So why spend the extra 80 pwr. If your using Verdant Gasp, I urge you to try out Verdant Whisper some time.....has worked fine for me in All KoS content. __________________ Barbarian~ LvL 75 Warden ,LvL 75 Provisioner, LvL 101 smak talker

12-01-2006, 02:10 PM	#5
Arielle Nightshade Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,727	Skivley101 wrote: Well as far as the Sandstorm....id have to agree with Ariel on that one ..... i still use sandstorm even in raids...kind of sparingly though due to not wanting to get locked down unless the tank is definatley set and not gona get kicked around. As far as verdant whisper.....i have yet to see it fail in any content .....(maybe there is some stuff in EoF it requires) dont know yet. So why spend the extra 80 pwr. If your using Verdant Gasp, I urge you to try out Verdant Whisper some time.....has worked fine for me in All KoS content. Well..when the DoT absolutely, positively HAS to come off, or your Tank dies (..thinking Halls of Fate here, or if you PvP against a brigand with Debilitate (which is the same spell that big droag lying on the table..whose name I can't remember...uses) ) I'm leaning toward the higher leveled spell. I don't want a 'oops...it didn't come off, let me try recasting again' situation when my group has every DoT in the game on them ..in a PvP situation, either. But I am open minded, and I will give Verdant Gasp a try out and see if and/or how it differs. Again, power isn't a huge issue for us, I don't think...or maybe I've played Defiler for too long (LOL). I do raid a little bit (yeah, yeah, I know....) and would probably not put Sandstorm up unless whatever group I was in REALLLY needed the spell for it's full duration due to the power cost. The knockback isn't going to work..so is the avoidance worth it vs. the power cost? My pettest peeve with Sandstorm is the one you mention here: If I put it on, I think i should be rooted in place. That means anchored. If I am rooted to my detriment (meaning I can't reposition or move without clicking the spell off of me), then I should be rooted in my favor too. For example, if I have Sandstorm on and I am booted off a hill, when I land, I am rooted there. I have to click the spell off and run back to where I was. If I was rooted when I was knocked off, why am I rooted where I land? I would think unable to move is unable to move. It doesn't stun me, it roots me. /deep breath. The only change I'd like to see in that spell is this. /rerail. I'll give the lower tiered version of Verdant Gasp a look-see..thanks for the suggestion.

12-01-2006, 10:44 PM	#7
Skivley101 Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: @ the desk Posts: 1,051	Woot.....cureing 76 lvls for 73 less pwr.....I rushed right out and found Verdant sigh Master1 for 60 gold.....score!!! thanx for that info. Getting back to the sandstorm.....I guess my brain was still thinking with the old pwr cost on that one....wow they did nerf this....more than twice the power cost and half the effect radius...........even though the 50 meters was hardly ever used to that distance. But my duststorm is adept1....and my sandstorm is master1.....with a difference of 12 defense for the pwr cost i will allways go for the more defense.....but someone else with master1 would probly go the otherway. And i cant see buying the master1 at this point for such a situational spell. And ya it should make us immune to knockback.......its bad enough when your trying to be at max heal range....and you have to yell at your tank not to move an inch.........It works to keep us in place when we get feared though. __________________ Barbarian~ LvL 75 Warden ,LvL 75 Provisioner, LvL 101 smak talker

12-01-2006, 12:39 PM	#1
mikemcmodmi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 837	Hello, Me again. On the forums to do more complaining. This time the topic is sandstorm. I think it costs too much power. Here's the thing. Right now in raids all the wardens I know who raid don't cast this spell at all, or they cast duststorm the level 45 version of the spell. This just seems wrong. The power cost to this spell is too prohibitive. Duststorm - 9 power to cast and 9 power every 2 seconds Sandstorm - 12 power to cast and 12 power every 2 seconds The low power cost per 2 seconds is misleading. Over a 3 minute fight which is what I'd call average raid depending on the mob the total power cost is 819 power for duststorm and 1092 for sandstorm. The other problem is if the fight is longer then that then we become the healer that's out of power first, despite all our efficient heals. I was looking forward to this spell now that the defense cap has been raised, but my testing shows this spell is inefficient unless the fight is really short. I'd suggest changing the spell to 9 and 12 power every 5 seconds. This seems more logical. Make it cost power per tick instead of per 2 seconds. I rarely use this spell in groups because of the power cost too....

12-01-2006, 01:46 PM	#3
Arielle Nightshade Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,727	I bow to other more technically savvy Wardens, but the reason you'd use Sandstorm over Duststorm - especially post EoF is for resistability problems with the lower tiered spell. Not a number cruncher here, but in field tests it 'seems like' Sandstorm is the better of the two at 70. We rarely have power issues, in my experience, even with this spell running full blast. Same thing with Verdant Gasp over Verdant Whisper. Interested to hear real facts, though. Message Edited by Arielle Nightshade on 12-01-2006 12:47 AM

12-01-2006, 04:22 PM	#6
Drizz Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 27	Duststorm used to be every tic 15 sec before LU 13, Never understood why it was changed to such fast tics, with situations where its useful now are so rare, only spot i really found it useful was way back in DoF on the last floor of PPR on the large orange skeleton groups. As for Verdant Sigh (42) Vs Verdant Grasp (70) There is zero reason to waste the extra power curing if you have M1 cure of Verdant Sigh, as it will cure any mob level 76 or lower. However, if you have the Remedie Line AA, the higher version you use, the better bonus you get Verdant Sigh (42) (228 Power) *Note i have a bit of Ministration so the power cost may be higher for you. 315 Physical Mitigation 630 Elemental Verdant Gasp (369 Power) 525 Physical Mitigation 1050 Elemental If you dont plan on getting the Remedies line, there is zero need to waste more power, unless you encounter a mob Level 77 or higher. (I dont have the 56 version as never saw a need to buy it, its obviously somewhere imbetween the two)

12-01-2006, 11:34 PM	#8
stargazer5678 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 123	I agree with Mike that Sandstorm is not power effecient. I rarely cast it even in groups and here is why. If the fight is tough it means I have a lot of healing to do. In most cases I would prefer to have more power rather then provide a defensive benefit and then run oop. In a short and easy fight there is no danger to run oop but since the fight is easy no need to cast Sandstorm at all. The only real benefit (I feel) is provided in Sandstorm when fighting against a grouped target (3 or more). The increased defense gives more benefit to the tank (since several mobs have harder time to attack him) plus interrupts also give more benefit. I think it makes sense to use Sandstorm for a short period of time and then cancel it. For example, in raids cast it on the pull (tank usually gets more damage so it's more important to keep him up on the pull) and the cancel it after 5 seconds. Leshii

12-02-2006, 01:20 AM	#9
Fromingo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 536	I saw raiders posting how they had 9-10K power on raids. Losing 1.1K power over the span of a 3 min raid fight doesn't seem like much to them. Probably unrealistic to expect 5 sec ticks. Maybe 2.5 sec ticks.

12-02-2006, 01:27 AM	#10
mikemcmodmi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 837	Well I used to use the lower lvled group cure too, but now with the remedies line for AAs you're better off using the level 70 cure. The higher the level of cure the more mitigation it adds. Really the power cost of sandstorm has been an issue since T6 but people rarely used the spell so people weren't complaining. Now that defense is uncapped as a Warden you're expected to use the spell for defense but the power cost is ridiculous. As a Warden using sandstorm you run out of power first out of G1 healers. That tells me the power cost is way too much. Using this spell negates our advantage of efficient heals and makes us the more inefficient healer. The other thing is this wouldn't overpower wardens for pvp. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe wardens cast this spell in pvp now as it is and don't have problems. The fights are shorter so the huge power cost is only hurting us in raids. So really there's no downside to reducing the power cost. It wouldn't overpower us in pvp just strength us in raid buffing.