LU24 thoughts so far

[Fat T]

- Wizard, Warlock, Conjurer, Necromancer: Root Spells:
  * Have 15% overall break chance instead of 20%
  * Only process break chances when damage is received, not on any hostile act toward the target.
  * Duration reduced.

Meh, not that I solo'd a lot, but it does affect me a bit.  I also don't like how they make it seem they helped us out by supposedly lowering the break % when our previous break % was 8% now it's 15%.

- Warlock: Freeze: Reduced stun duration from 4 to 3 seconds. Power cost reduced.

Not too bad, atleast it still has the stun affect and less power usage is $$.

- Warlock: Interference: Lowers hate with the encounter instead of dealing damage. Daze affects entire encounter.

Just what the doctor ordered!  Keep this in your casting cycle and you can do that much more dps w/o ganking aggro.

- Warlock: Gas Cloud: Reduced stun duration to 1.5s. Lowered reuse timer from 15s to 9s.

/shrug

- Warlock: Rift: Will not interfere with other Rifts if cast at the same time.

cool cool

- Warlock: Dark Siphoning: Removed nil crystal component requirement. Reduced casting time to 3s.

Spell is now worth putting in my normal cycle

- Warlock: Devastation: Removed stun component. DoT will properly stack with other Warlock Devastations.

Pro-less aggro, con-no stun=slightly less desirable during soloing groups or going all out in your xp group.

- Warlock: Bony Grasp: Has 15% chance of breaking when receiving damage.

Booo, atleast they made it to where you can't break by debuffing

- Warlock: Curse of Darkness: Affects entire encounter.

Wooohooo, easy crystal farming!

- Warlock: Null Caress: Reduces Hate in AOE and increased radius. Removed stun component. Increased teleport radius. Epics unaffected by Teleport/Snare component. Lowered snare break chances.

Another doctor ordered beauty.

- Warlock: Dark Infestation: Increased duration to 24 seconds. Increased proc chance of broodlings from 25% to 35%. Broodlings can only trigger once per Dark Infestation cast. Broodlings now cast on the run--they shouldn't stay at their owner's feet immediately after they are cast. Reduced Broodling area effect damage. Broodlings continue to target the rest of the encounter after the primary target dies. Increased reuse timer to 45s.

This is great, sure we lose the dot once the broodlings spawn, but atleast the broodlings are immediately affective and lasts for the full 24seconds, seem resistant to some ae's.

 

Another thing that benifits us if you bug your illusionist enough:

- Illusionist: Intensity: Proc cannot be resisted. Proc also reduces hate. Proc will not trigger for Fighter classes or pets.

IMO, this was a good LU for us, we got a lot of things fixed including being able to cast our AE's through the death of our initial target.  It will take some getting used to lol, I keep wanting to cancel my cast and switch targets, but not I can FINALLY assist the MA and burn away.

[Bophus]

well they didint destroy us, like they have in the past.  everything is relatively the same, minus stuns.  the reduced cast timers is great.  also not it is not as easy to take agro from a good tank.  the bad ones though.......lol.  i am happy overall with the LU for our class.

[Tanatus]

I played yestoday with my warlock dinged 70 lol at last ....

So far for warlock I like things that been done

Nebula on 9s cast timer, Vulian now AoE de-agro, Curse of Emptiness - AoE (finally I can cast Rift w/o thinking where the hell I get my crystalls). Loosing stun on Apocal bite a lot - it STILL cause [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] load agro specially then it crits .... and it crits often. Power reduction on Twart - great - everything that cause me burn less power counts as good change

Bad thing is - our already poor ability to solo been severely nerfed ... Instead of 8% chance root brake now its 15% ....

[Dajuuk]

Our single target root break chance was 10% not 8 the group root was the one at 8%.   and it damage gave it two chances to break.   So in reality the odds of breaking were much greater then 10%.  The 15% break chance on damage only, is does not increase the overall odds of getting a break on a nuke and since you can't break it on debuffs anymore, it should mean overall fewer root breaks for us.  

 

 

[Fat T]

2 chances to break?  I'm not following you...

 

If you're counting debuffs and damage spells...I never debuffed a mob when I solo'd, so yeah, it did increase the rate at which my roots break.

[Dajuuk]

Under the old system an npc got a chance to break root everytime a hostile spell was cast on him AND everytime he took damage.

 

A nuke qualified is a hostile spell so thats 1 chance and then it does damage giving the npc a second root break chance with 1 spell.   A dot would give the npc several.   1 for the initial hostile spell, and then another 1 everytime it took damage as a result.  Under the current system they only get a root break chance on damage and thus only 1 chance on a nuke.

 

 

[Fat T]

ok, so you had a 8% & 8%/10% & 10% (single/group) chance to break on initial landing of a spell and 8% every tick of a DoT.  Mobs had more saving throws against your roots, but you still had 8% and 10% base.  I'm no probability master, but I'm pretty sure when equating percentages against chances you don't add the percentages together.

 

Whether or not 8% & 8% on a nuke or 8%, 8%, 8%, 8%, 8%, 8%, 8% & 8% on a dot is better than 15% or not I'm not sure nor am I concerned about it enough to research it, I just know I had a bad streak with my roots last night and almost every root I cast broke from 1 nuke (master 1 spectral and adept 3 cowering).

[Dajuuk]

- All hostile spells and arts that stun, mesmerize, root, fear, daze or stifle their targets will become increasingly more resistible when you are 20 levels above the spell level.

 

I assume that the problem your noticing with root is related to this part of the change.    Prior to LU 24, the level of your root didn't matter.   You could just get a master version of the level 5 root and functioned exactly the same as the master root we get at 61 (might be 62).    As a result many players never upgraded their 60+ root spells.   If you don't have Adept III's of your most recent root spells, you probably want to pick them up now.

 

 

[Dajuuk]

You are correct about adding the odds being wrong.  For the probability calculation you multiply.  

With the old system we had a 90/100 chance that root would not break on each break chance and our group root had a 92/100 chance.   So on a nuke where 2 break chances you multiply the probability IE 0.9 * 0.9 = 0.81 or a 19% chance of break.   For our group root, it would be 0.92 * 0.92 or 0.8464.   In both cases 1 chance at 0.85 is a slight upgrade.

 

Ehlana

[Fat T]

Cool.And I've always had the latest spells, I'm not clever enough to figure out that I could've used my lvl 5 root on lvl 70 mobs~  :smileytongue:

[SwissArmySh]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but when calculating probability you only ever multiply the odds when the chances are directly effecting each other like in a sequence.

 

For e.g., when the lottery is being drawn there are 49 balls so your first ball is 1/49 chance, but to get the next ball in the sequence you would have a 1/48 chance multiplied by the previous chance as you are now trying to obtain the next number in the sequence.

 

If you where to call out a random number between 1 and 49 before each draw, it would always be 1/49 chance.  But to have them all written down on a sheet of paper and get 6 in a row then the odds multiply up to somewhere in the region of 14,000,000/1

 

So, that 15% chance of the root breaking will always be 15% chance no matter how many times it checks.  If this wasn't the case then the chances of landing 6 nukes back to back (which happens sometimes) without root breaking would be virtualy impossible due to the multiplied chances of root breaking.

 

A simpler analogy would be flipping a coin.  It is always 1/2 chance.  But, if you write down a sequence of heads and tails and try to get every flip in your sequence then you get a multiplier.

 

So in this case, I would say we are now better off as there is now less actual chances of root failing.

 

*Breaths*

 

*Gets up to make another coffee*

 

*Twitch*

[Dajuuk]

Yes your correct, each test has the same odds individually, but that does not answer the question asked.  

It should be inherantly obvious, that 2 chances gives something a better chance at occuring then only giving it 1 chance.

For example, If I told you I would give you 5 dollars if you flipped a coin and got heads, but that you had to choose taking 2 flips or just 1.   In either case you only needed to get 1 of the flips to come out heads.   Would you choose to flip the coin only 1 time? figuring that you have a 50% chance on the first flip and so no matter how many additional flips you take you'll never improve your odds of getting heads once?

No you wouldn't becuase each flip is independant with each subsequent flip you improve your chances that at least one of them would be land heads.   You have a 75% chance of gettting at least 1 flip to land heads when you flip 2 coins btw.

Now in the case of root break chances, it only gets to break 1 time.   So to answer the question what are my odds in the new system of casting 10 nukes and still having root up?   Since each chance has 85/100 chance of not breaking root.    You would multiply 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 = 0.197.   Or you would have about a 20% chance of root still being up after 10 nukes (assuming you could land that many in the duration).

 

[Crono1321]

LoL...frozen manacles ftw...back in the day rooting epics ftw.

[Ziffna]

Ok well no matter what the odds are on any given mob the numbe of chances to have the root break my be lower now but the number of possible nukes to land on the mob is WAY lower.   Lets assume for ease of calcualtion that the average cast time for a nuke is 3s with a 1 second cool down.  Prior to this update we could in theory have cast 72s/ 4s = 18 Nukes,  now we are able to get 30s / 4s = 7.5 nukes on single mobs, and 48/ 4 = 12 on group rooted mobs now is 20/ 4 = 5.  While we are at it the devs are always saying that our pictures aren't 100% accurate to the actual effect and myself i'm noticing my nukes breaking roots far quicker then they used to.  shorter roots also seriously hurt our ablity to solo and deal with adds because instead of being able to root one and deal with the other we now have to try and deal with them both.  Even if you are able to root the add and deal with the other your going to be having to go back and re root often to keep it rooted draging the fight out and with the shortened duration the mana cost for each cast has remained the same.  If i'm having to cast the root 3 times to get the same durration at the same mana cost i'm using 3x the mana to get the same effect.

[SwissArmySh]

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Dajuuk wrote:

Yes your correct, each test has the same odds individually, but that does not answer the question asked.  

It should be inherantly obvious, that 2 chances gives something a better chance at occuring then only giving it 1 chance.

For example, If I told you I would give you 5 dollars if you flipped a coin and got heads, but that you had to choose taking 2 flips or just 1.   In either case you only needed to get 1 of the flips to come out heads.   Would you choose to flip the coin only 1 time? figuring that you have a 50% chance on the first flip and so no matter how many additional flips you take you'll never improve your odds of getting heads once?

No you wouldn't becuase each flip is independant with each subsequent flip you improve your chances that at least one of them would be land heads.   You have a 75% chance of gettting at least 1 flip to land heads when you flip 2 coins btw.

Now in the case of root break chances, it only gets to break 1 time.   So to answer the question what are my odds in the new system of casting 10 nukes and still having root up?   Since each chance has 85/100 chance of not breaking root.    You would multiply 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 * 0.85 = 0.197.   Or you would have about a 20% chance of root still being up after 10 nukes (assuming you could land that many in the duration).

 

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Yeah that was what I meant to say :smileywink:

[Robbpilot]

Although, the number of times my root stays up for its entire duration is less than 20% in the field.  I'm not blasting 10 spells in that time either.

So the other factors like level and quality of root spell... can they be considered each tick or just at application?

Message Edited by Robbpilot on 06-20-2006 01:14 PM

Message Edited by Robbpilot on 06-20-2006 02:56 PM

[Dajuuk]

The NPC gets a chance to break root each time it takes damage.   So if you put a dot on it, each tic would provide its own chance.

 

[Xede]

overall i am VERY happy with these changes. in raid encounters my DPS is at the top or very near each time. Conj/necros are still up there with us and can out DPS in situations but overall my DPS has increased by about 300-400 easily if not more.

[Fat T]

True that Xede, I laugh cause I'm out dpsing our predator's and wizards on single target dps too (but they do slack and I let them know it).  :smileyvery-happy:

[Crono1321]

I agree our dps has gone up some, in raid I continue to top parsers, wizards send me tells asking how I do it?:smileysurprised:

[SvipOman]

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Fat T wrote:

ok, so you had a 8% & 8%/10% & 10% (single/group) chance to break on initial landing of a spell and 8% every tick of a DoT.  Mobs had more saving throws against your roots, but you still had 8% and 10% base.  I'm no probability master, but I'm pretty sure when equating percentages against chances you don't add the percentages together.

 

Whether or not 8% & 8% on a nuke or 8%, 8%, 8%, 8%, 8%, 8%, 8% & 8% on a dot is better than 15% or not I'm not sure nor am I concerned about it enough to research it, I just know I had a bad streak with my roots last night and almost every root I cast broke from 1 nuke (master 1 spectral and adept 3 cowering).

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The spells vil not have X%  breaking chance whit every tick of a DoT.  Only the frist hit counts .

[Tanatus]

Lol bud you wish .... Try cast Apocal on ANY rooted mob see if ANY chance that root stay ALL tic ..... So far I NEVER seen root stayed all duration of Apocal - usually second-third tic brake any root ... impact almost never do that thou

[Fyzzl]

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SwissArmyShoe wrote:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but when calculating probability you only ever multiply the odds when the chances are directly effecting each other like in a sequence.

 

For e.g., when the lottery is being drawn there are 49 balls so your first ball is 1/49 chance, but to get the next ball in the sequence you would have a 1/48 chance multiplied by the previous chance as you are now trying to obtain the next number in the sequence.

 

If you where to call out a random number between 1 and 49 before each draw, it would always be 1/49 chance.  But to have them all written down on a sheet of paper and get 6 in a row then the odds multiply up to somewhere in the region of 14,000,000/1

 

So, that 15% chance of the root breaking will always be 15% chance no matter how many times it checks.  If this wasn't the case then the chances of landing 6 nukes back to back (which happens sometimes) without root breaking would be virtualy impossible due to the multiplied chances of root breaking.

 

A simpler analogy would be flipping a coin.  It is always 1/2 chance.  But, if you write down a sequence of heads and tails and try to get every flip in your sequence then you get a multiplier.

 

So in this case, I would say we are now better off as there is now less actual chances of root failing.

 

*Breaths*

 

*Gets up to make another coffee*

 

*Twitch*

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OMG!  My head hurts!  You MUST post a warnign before you start in on the statistical probabilty of a butter flapping its wing in the Amazon causing a typhon in the sea pf Japan!  Its only 6:00 AM and you made my head hurt.. And  now I am gettign a flash back to my sophmire year in college and the statistics class I took with some prof that made his foriegn aide teach. Never could understand Ahman (sp) but there was the cute Alpha that sat next to me.. Never you mind  NO MORE MATH PLEASE!!!

[Taryhn_Spitfi]

I do not like the changes at all.  I left because of the changes.  If they change the stuns back, I will be back.  I've checked the boards since the changes and found out some were "stun-locking" heroics.  I've never even heard of it till I came to the boards, and further I don't care if anyone is doing it.  So someone found a new way to take on heroics.  Big deal.  Bottom line for me:  the game was fun before the changes and not fun after the changes.

[SvipOman]

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Tanatus wrote:

Lol bud you wish .... Try cast Apocal on ANY rooted mob see if ANY chance that root stay ALL tic ..... So far I NEVER seen root stayed all duration of Apocal - usually second-third tic brake any root ... impact almost never do that thou

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i pull whit debuff then grasp and  Apocal whit crit . if it dont break when Apocal hits, it dont will ! . i try a million times just to be sure ! !  it do not break on ticks only on impackt ! so plz stop whine

[Tanatus]

Dude ... debuffs dont brake root anymore .... lol big deal.... Crit or no crit it have no effect what so ever on stability of root but EACH tic of dot counts as a separate spell and I just proved to you....

If only initial tic would conciders for root stay/brake you would see root brakage on Apocal only upon landing spell but this is not how it work lol. Each tic chance of root brakage 15% now use to be 8% in other words: Apocal do FIVE tic total that is 15%X5 = 75% chance SINGLE spell will brake root. You gear proc counts toward that too.... Look place Aura line spell on and hit it with nuke if your gear proc chance of root brakage around 50%

[SwissArmySh]

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Taryhn_Spitfire wrote:
I do not like the changes at all.  I left because of the changes.  If they change the stuns back, I will be back.  I've checked the boards since the changes and found out some were "stun-locking" heroics.  I've never even heard of it till I came to the boards, and further I don't care if anyone is doing it.  So someone found a new way to take on heroics.  Big deal.  Bottom line for me:  the game was fun before the changes and not fun after the changes.

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BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Pilgrim Divine]

On the whole i really like the changes to the warlock class. Biggest thing i like are the broodlings, the way they now run off to do their broody damage of broodliness rather than stagger forward hesistantly reaching the mob just as it dies.....Also im really chuffed we got a grp deaggro spell. No its not going to solve all our aggro problems but its a big step the in the right direction and clarification that the devs understand that if we are now destined to be AoE specialists we need something which negates the aggro that causes.Stun removals dont bother me too much as its not only the warlock class which has been targetted in that, I dont feel victimised.I sorely miss the duration on boney grasp but ill live with it.Put it this way, there was a time when i had lost faith in  the class but i really have a great time playing it now. Hopefully in future xp packs there will be greater opportunites to use even more AoE as its a real blast to see multiple mobs drop at the same time.gets a thumbs up from me.

Message Edited by Pilgrim Divine on 06-27-2006 03:43 AM

[SvipOman]

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Tanatus wrote:

Dude ... debuffs dont brake root anymore .... lol big deal....

OMG True ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:smileyhappy:

Crit or no crit it have no effect what so ever on stability of root

No [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ? ?  . . . . . . . . . . . .:smileywink:

but EACH tic of dot counts as a separate spell and I just proved to you....

U need to show me . i try about 100 times on singel taget in BM and grasp NEVER brake , if not on the frist tick ! ! Sry 4 calling you post "whine" but this forum is sick ! . Warlocks only come here to power whine over ther Class . Its is wery sad too see when you love to play the Warlock class  .I have filmed about 30 encounter whit Fraps but my FTP is down atm but i will post them ASP :smileywink:If only initial tic would conciders for root stay/brake you would see root brakage on Apocal only upon landing spell but this is not how it work lol. Each tic chance of root brakage 15% now use to be 8% in other words: Apocal do FIVE tic total that is 15%X5 = 75% chance SINGLE spell will brake root. You gear proc counts toward that too.... Look place Aura line spell on and hit it with nuke if your gear proc chance of root brakage around 50%75% ? ? No way !   I can hold a mob in Grasp a full encounter if locky whitout reroot ! ! That will be 5 -8 spells include 2 dots (War and Apo) ! U need to show me plz :smileywink:

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[Tanatus]

Bud I have every single attack spells and roots at M1 - and I never seen stack of TWO roots survived full duration of Apocal not a single time not even on green conned mobs