Pallys tankin epics?? no chance pallys are a utility class :-(

Eldin7 · 02-18-2006, 12:40 AM

/sigh tired of ppl sayin pallys arent epic tanks... Ive tanked epics wit np.. i think it depends more on the mt group than the tank itself. Feel free to post ur pally tankin xperiences!!

Anzak · 02-18-2006, 12:48 AM

Tanked basically every mob in Court the other night. While as a guild we are not ready for the Black Queen or Sunchild for that matter all the other fell and have fallen with ease. At this point any mob we can kill with our guard tanking we can kill with me tanking in fact we have killed some mobs with me tanking that our guard has not tanked though that is partly because I'm at almost every raid and he is not always there.

Caetrel · 02-18-2006, 01:15 AM

Pallies and SK in my guild have tanked everything we can kill pretty much. Warriors do have a health and temp mit advantage, but a self-buffed 4kmit 6k health crusader can own.

Agent40 · 02-18-2006, 01:16 AM

I tanked the Black queen the other night, as shown in the Over 10k thread. Our previous guild tank was a pally, Citizenkannibal, who tanked dang near everything thrown at him. Got to last named in PPR, the whole nine yards.

Message Edited by Agent4054 on 02-17-200612:17 PM

FieryFurnace · 02-18-2006, 02:28 AM

I like to set up the main tank group to include a Guardian and a Paladin, they both have good buffs for each other and it's very easy to have the MT switch this way. I have MT'd most of Court minus BQ and Sunchild, most of Gates and as much as we can do of PPR without that stooopid Djinn ring.

Kinesthesia · 02-18-2006, 03:48 AM

Our main tank groups nearly always contain both a Guardian and a Paladin. Depending on the type of the mob, direction of the wind and mood of both... either can and will tank anything. Each class is slightly better than the other for different kinds of mobs, but not enough of a difference to effect the outcome of a fight. As mentioned above, together they are far better than either alone.

Sirlutt · 02-18-2006, 04:53 AM

our raid MT is a pally .. who ever is saying pallys cant tank epics is pretty ignorant.. with the right gear any tank class can tank any mob pretty much.... its gear that separates tanks now..

GidionSWE · 02-18-2006, 05:05 AM

Sure pallys can tank...we're maybe only slightly worse then warriors... The question though is does u and your guild rly want to make things harder for yourselves?

While a warrior is only 5% better he's still the better tank in 99% of teh cases. Besides a warrior that isnt tanking is a hell of alot less useful then a pally thats not tanking.

Edit: forgot to add that theres stuff thats impossible or pretty darn near it for a pally to tank like POS, end of PPR and djinn master i would assume (alltough we havent had much luck with that with any tank :p )

Message Edited by GidionSWE on 02-17-200604:07 PM

Anariale · 02-18-2006, 05:20 AM

While a warrior is only 5% better... Objection, assumes facts not in evidence

Agent40 · 02-18-2006, 05:50 AM

I highly disagree Gidion. I was tanking siyamak in PoS w/ a guard tanking barakah with no issues whatsoever. We wiped due to the imbalance. Got it down to 85% no prob. Its definitely doable. Citizenkannibal tanked the Djinn master down to 80% and killed the first spawn of the last named in PPR. So no, I disagree.

emr · 02-18-2006, 06:24 AM

I wonder if when you are the tank for epics you used the Judgement line or Decree because SONY just nerfed them. I know I always pulled with Zealous preaching, Decree, and judgement. After that I was back to the spot where I planed to tank.http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47054

Mgunner · 02-18-2006, 06:34 AM

I agree, any of the fighter classes can tank well with the right group. We even have a Warlock that tanked Poets Palace (not return) with me providing only my mit transfer. He had to yell at me to prevent me from hitting my taunts. I was very surprised at this actually. The key to that was the stuns. Now, he's not tanking any raid mobs, but the point is that pallies can tank just as well as guardians or zerkers with the same group makeup that makes guardians tank so well.

Caetrel · 02-18-2006, 02:18 PM

The Decree/ Judgment changes are gonna be inconvenient no doubt, but it won't affect anything. Just pull with Decree (or Judgment for single target) and follow up with taunts. The only hitch is you have to stop now for the casting time which is inconvenient but doesn't really affect the pull. I always pull with the longest casting time abilities because you don't aggro until it resolves, then you can whip off all the .2 and .5 second stuff very quickly.

Rr · 02-18-2006, 03:36 PM

I highly disagree Gidion. I was tanking siyamak in PoS w/ a guard tanking barakah with no issues whatsoever. We wiped due to the imbalance. Got it down to 85% no prob. Its definitely doable. Citizenkannibal tanked the Djinn master down to 80% and killed the first spawn of the last named in PPR. So no, I disagree.---------------------------------------------When you get all the way through all of these, with paladins for the entire thing for all encounters, you can say that paladins tank as well as guards. Until then, guards ARE the best possible tank. There would be no reason for a paladin to tank over a guard in a raid unless he was completely useless at holding agro, had VASTLY worse gear, or the mob AUTO-ATTACKED for magic and/or divine dmg. Unless one of those 3 qualifiers are fullfilled you can not point any instnace out of a paladin has an advantage.Rrin, 56 paladin

TrekkerSnake · 02-18-2006, 09:54 PM

I highly disagree Gidion. I was tanking siyamak in PoS w/ a guard tanking barakah with no issues whatsoever. We wiped due to the imbalance. Got it down to 85% no prob. Its definitely doable. Citizenkannibal tanked the Djinn master down to 80% and killed the first spawn of the last named in PPR. So no, I disagree.---------------------------------------------When you get all the way through all of these, with paladins for the entire thing for all encounters, you can say that paladins tank as well as guards. Until then, guards ARE the best possible tank. There would be no reason for a paladin to tank over a guard in a raid unless he was completely useless at holding agro, had VASTLY worse gear, or the mob AUTO-ATTACKED for magic and/or divine dmg. Unless one of those 3 qualifiers are fullfilled you can not point any instnace out of a paladin has an advantage.Rrin, 56 paladin

Lope, 60 Dirgewww.iconoclastguild.com

---------------------------------------------

Good thing your main is a Dirge becouse it doesn't sound like you have the right mindset to play a tank. Maybe you should re-roll a Mage are a Range, or some other class that fights from range so you don't get so close to the big bad monsters. Or better yet go hide behind a Guardian. I've tanked most instances (to the end) and most contested T6 mobs. Some day you'll figure out that what makes a good tank isn't the toon your playing, but the person behind the toon.

No guts. No glory.

Trope, 60 Paladin

Tox server

Message Edited by TrekkerSnake on 02-18-200608:55 AM

Anariale · 02-18-2006, 10:34 PM

Do Iconoclast Paladins just suck that bad or something?And btw... Paladins have better resists across the board than other tanks, sans the one class-specific resist (but even then, Paladins are pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] close, ~300 less). Its not just Divine and Magic.

Message Edited by Anariale on 02-18-200612:36 PM

Message Edited by Anariale on 02-18-200612:52 PM

Monfar · 02-18-2006, 11:18 PM

Sure we can tank epics , I do it , my SK friends do but I'd rahter have a guard take on the Black queen than have a 9k piercing hole hacked in me before any debuff heal has time to land lol.

Jonaroth · 02-19-2006, 05:32 AM

its funny our old MT (zerker) tried tanking black queen 10 times in a row, became totally naked. I tried it once first try killed him with a paly tankin. anyone who says palys cant tank dont know his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SMILEY

GidionSWE · 02-19-2006, 06:13 AM

Jonaroth wrote:
its funny our old MT (zerker) tried tanking black queen 10 times in a row, became totally naked. I tried it once first try killed him with a paly tankin. anyone who says palys cant tank dont know his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]

Or it could just be that ure ppl learned how to do the encounter during those first 10 whipes or that your zerk sucks or any other reason imaginable...If u straightly look at numbers though a warrior is the better tank (given u have the same gear and race with same traits- they got more hp, more avoidance, miti buffs, and resists doesnt matter cause u max em some other way) but ofcourse player skill > all else.

Add that to the fact that non-tanking a pally is alot more useful then a warrior not tanking and the choice is pretty clear imho who should be raidtank.

Key thing though is player skill > all else ... roll with whats work for u

beanom · 02-19-2006, 06:20 AM

Pallies can def tank epics. With the same gear as a gaurdian, Paladins have a higher base mitigation. So, we need to have a brigand to throw amends on so other assasins and dps classes can go all out, rather than 65-70% like when a guard tanks.

Athan

60 Pally

Kithicor (formerly Neriak)

XskullbusterX · 02-19-2006, 07:46 AM

Im a little outta of time right now but here is a brief scenerio of what ive tanked as a paladin on the mistmoore server. We have rescently lost all of our guardians due to RL issues and that leaves a few tanks capable of the content that we were doing... myself and a bruiser. I have tanked ALL of courts of Alafaz and all of Gates of AA ... i have also tanked all including Jaranata in PPR we have not killed Jaranata yet but i was able to stay up while we got both adds down and her to 30% before i had an emergency and needed to log ... hope this stops the theories of pallies not being tanks SMILEY

because we are SMILEY

.

Agent40 · 02-19-2006, 08:35 AM

Yeah, i'm sorry, but anyone who claims pallies can't tank as well as guards need to raid with more pally tanks =P. It was true before the combat changes but not anymore. case closed. lets move on people.

Zoradan · 02-19-2006, 12:27 PM

I've tanked every thing in the game, T5-T6, you name it. Not every thing to finnish, but every thing.

Sk's and Pallies can tank, no Q. Pallies have a better time with agro, other tanks have a better time over all, but a SK or Pallie who is good surounded by good players can tank anything...... almost..... :smileywink:

XskullbusterX · 02-19-2006, 10:53 PM

UPDATE .... i wasnt on for Godking the other day but my crusader brother by another mother tanked the Godking ... if i was on im sure i would have SMILEY

wooty woot woot SMILEY

MeridianR · 02-20-2006, 01:44 AM

XskullbusterX wrote:
UPDATE .... i wasnt on for Godking the other day but my crusader brother by another mother tanked the Godking ... if i was on im sure i would have wooty woot woot

Let's see if I can talk Aandien into letting me tank Godking tonight SMILEY While I have [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed about our tanking compared to Guardians, I know that we can tank anything....it is just easier for a Guardian in the current settings.

Let's hope that we are given something in the future that gives us a little edge with casting epics....

JNewby · 02-20-2006, 07:32 PM

Anariale wrote:
Do Iconoclast Paladins just suck that bad or something?And btw... Paladins have better resists across the board than other tanks, sans the one class-specific resist (but even then, Paladins are pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] close, ~300 less). Its not just Divine and Magic.
Message Edited by Anariale on 02-18-200612:36 PM
Message Edited by Anariale on 02-18-200612:52 PM

that is not true... guards obviously have way higher fire resistance... but in addition I dont know of any natural buffs you guys recieve it woudl be dependet on the persons gear, I know you tend to have a higher wisdom because of that being one of your main attributes but that isnt to inherent in the class... and either way self tested wisdom does so little for resists.

JNewby · 02-20-2006, 07:36 PM

Agent4054 wrote:Yeah, i'm sorry, but anyone who claims pallies can't tank as well as guards need to raid with more pally tanks =P. It was true before the combat changes but not anymore. case closed. lets move on people.

you have about a 800 hp disadvantage along with about 8% avoidance that is a constant change and while it isnt as big of a difference as it used to be it is... also the two short term mit buff guards get and tower of stone... which obviosuly isnt a perm buff.. but it still stands to reason you are not as good as a guard... though good enough to tank epics.. so what does this mean? it means that maybe you will need sharper healers... doesnt mean it cant be done or shouldnt be done.. jsut that all gear and skill being the same a guard would tank epics better..

Rr · 02-20-2006, 07:53 PM

Jnewby summed it up pretty well.

CAN paladins tank the high end epic content? Sure.

Do they do it as well as guards? No.

I made my paladin when the game first came out, having never played an eq1 game before, and I thought of him as a damage/healing/tanking hybrid. Not great or excelling at any of the three trees, but decent enough. After live updates and further game play, I realized I wanted him to be a raid tank, but after looking at all the skills and stats of my paladin vs. and IDENTICALLY equipped guardian, I realized that a guardian just has better numbers for tanking over all.

Do paladins have great resistances? Yes, but it is stupid easy to raise an MT's resistances to match per encounter, between gear, group members, and potions. Sadly, that detracts from the paladins raid niche. In addition to that, paladins are far better in a position for buffing the MT than they are to actually BE the MT. No matter who your MT is, you want a paladin/SK in there as well to buff him, so instead of having two crusaders in the MT group, put the guard in there who has his short term HUGE mitigation buffs.

If you read through my last post, I never said paladins CAN'T tank epics, I only said that guardians are the better choice, and make the life of everyone in the raid just that much easier.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Agent4054 wrote:Yeah, i'm sorry, but anyone who claims pallies can't tank as well as guards need to raid with more pally tanks =P. It was true before the combat changes but not anymore. case closed. lets move on people.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't mean this in a mocking or derogatory way, but please point out the numbers to me that prove that a Paladin is a better choice for tanking. Lacking the mitigation buff skills, I don't see how they can compare. Pure agro control? I'm there with you, paladins rock that department. But mitigation factor? Not as much.

Rrin, 56 paladin

Anzak · 02-20-2006, 08:50 PM

*sigh* I'm so sick of fighting this battle. Three main issues come to mind.1) Guards have no utility outside of main tank. A large number of guards like this as it makes them a one trick pony and thus gives good reason why they should be better raid tanks. This needs to change. Guards need utility so they can play other roles than MT then there is no excuse for them needing to be better tanks.2) "Pallies have heals and wards to make up for Guards short term buffs" Sorry this again is an unfair advantage to the guard and it is two fold. First off we can use most of these on the guard so having them makes no difference who is tanking other than our big self heal which is near impossible to get off against a raid mob because of its insane cast time and when you do get it off more than likely it is wasted because the healers have you back to full HP. Secondly our best heal is only able to heal about 2500 HP yet guards can block 3 attacks that against a mob that is hitting for about 3K a hit well that is more than 3 times the damage blocked. Also Tower of Stone can be used more often than LH. Now the trade off is the damage to the shield. I would say our heals average out the Mit buff though then again we can heal the guard as well so it would have to be balanced to our big heal which if you can get it off because of the insane cast time it is less useful. But here again guards can use their Mit buff more often then we can use our big heal make these timers the same and reduce the casting time on the big heal and then I would say they are even. Though we still need something to make up for tower of stone.3) Resist. This is such a joke. The idea was that each class would have resists to make them better at tanking certain mobs. Yet with resist gear anyone is able to break the resist soft cap. And even if it was not an issue which in smaller raid guilds it is not. I blow away the magic and divine resist of anyone in the guild without even trying. But there is still the issue of Guards are better vs melee damage and every single raid mob does at least 60% of their damage in melee so that leaves the edge in the guards corner no matter the resist for the AE. Also look at a large chunk of the plate armor out there what does it have for resists? Divine and/or magic. Why is this to make up for guards lack of this key resist that would make a pally better in some instances. Two things need to happen. First in full resist gear only the class with the that resist should be able to hit the resist cap if any at all. This will give an advantage to that class for resists. Second there needs to be mobs that do either auto-attack of a certain type, or atleast have a bulk of their damage come from a single resist. Further to this it should be balanced such that each tank class has an even amount of raid mobs they are better at. If there are 6 Dragons for example then each of the tank classes should be better at one of them. While in resist gear any class could kill any of them there will be a distinct advantage to one over the other.And don't even get me started on the whole AA thing. Sure we had 60 more Mit and maybe even 150 more mit if we got the BP from the godking, but we are still out HP and yet Guards got HP and Mit bonuses we did not. Now if the resist thing was not an issue them I would not mind getting resists over Mit but since it is an issue then we have a problem and do guards really need more of an HP bonus over pallies? Since thier Mit will now be higher shouldn't we get the extra HP to balance it. Sure they take less damage but we get a bit more HP to make up for it.

JNewby · 02-20-2006, 10:13 PM

Anzak wrote:*sigh* I'm so sick of fighting this battle. Three main issues come to mind.1) Guards have no utility outside of main tank. A large number of guards like this as it makes them a one trick pony and thus gives good reason why they should be better raid tanks. This needs to change. Guards need utility so they can play other roles than MT then there is no excuse for them needing to be better tanks.2) "Pallies have heals and wards to make up for Guards short term buffs" Sorry this again is an unfair advantage to the guard and it is two fold. First off we can use most of these on the guard so having them makes no difference who is tanking other than our big self heal which is near impossible to get off against a raid mob because of its insane cast time and when you do get it off more than likely it is wasted because the healers have you back to full HP. Secondly our best heal is only able to heal about 2500 HP yet guards can block 3 attacks that against a mob that is hitting for about 3K a hit well that is more than 3 times the damage blocked. Also Tower of Stone can be used more often than LH. Now the trade off is the damage to the shield. I would say our heals average out the Mit buff though then again we can heal the guard as well so it would have to be balanced to our big heal which if you can get it off because of the insane cast time it is less useful. But here again guards can use their Mit buff more often then we can use our big heal make these timers the same and reduce the casting time on the big heal and then I would say they are even. Though we still need something to make up for tower of stone.3) Resist. This is such a joke. The idea was that each class would have resists to make them better at tanking certain mobs. Yet with resist gear anyone is able to break the resist soft cap. And even if it was not an issue which in smaller raid guilds it is not. I blow away the magic and divine resist of anyone in the guild without even trying. But there is still the issue of Guards are better vs melee damage and every single raid mob does at least 60% of their damage in melee so that leaves the edge in the guards corner no matter the resist for the AE. Also look at a large chunk of the plate armor out there what does it have for resists? Divine and/or magic. Why is this to make up for guards lack of this key resist that would make a pally better in some instances. Two things need to happen. First in full resist gear only the class with the that resist should be able to hit the resist cap if any at all. This will give an advantage to that class for resists. Second there needs to be mobs that do either auto-attack of a certain type, or atleast have a bulk of their damage come from a single resist. Further to this it should be balanced such that each tank class has an even amount of raid mobs they are better at. If there are 6 Dragons for example then each of the tank classes should be better at one of them. While in resist gear any class could kill any of them there will be a distinct advantage to one over the other.And don't even get me started on the whole AA thing. Sure we had 60 more Mit and maybe even 150 more mit if we got the BP from the godking, but we are still out HP and yet Guards got HP and Mit bonuses we did not. Now if the resist thing was not an issue them I would not mind getting resists over Mit but since it is an issue then we have a problem and do guards really need more of an HP bonus over pallies? Since thier Mit will now be higher shouldn't we get the extra HP to balance it. Sure they take less damage but we get a bit more HP to make up for it.

first off to make guards a more utility class woudl be a horrid idea... right now there aer 4 tank type plate tnak anyhow 1 dps 2 utilty and one strat tank.. that isthe choice made when you made your toon..

also we dont get a AA hp buff.. powned SMILEY

in addition the AA mit buff if imo correcting a error they made in the revaqmp where they gave everyone our defensive stance and gave us nothing in return.. it iwll give warrior classes a slight mit lead in addition you guys get whatever you do.. I havent really even looked....

and lastley you are right pallies make great mt group buffer/healers with the avoidance buff they giveand mit transfer if you didnt have that then you would not be welcom on raids if you were not MT as guards are not

so I mean you could either have 4 guard classes or 4 more unique classes with roles on end game raids

before raids ie in groups class doesnt matter as much mobs are all easy

02-18-2006, 01:15 AM	#3
Caetrel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 427	Pallies and SK in my guild have tanked everything we can kill pretty much. Warriors do have a health and temp mit advantage, but a self-buffed 4kmit 6k health crusader can own. __________________ Fidelus Raid Leader Survivors Guk

02-18-2006, 01:16 AM	#4
Agent40 General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 29	I tanked the Black queen the other night, as shown in the Over 10k thread. Our previous guild tank was a pally, Citizenkannibal, who tanked dang near everything thrown at him. Got to last named in PPR, the whole nine yards. Message Edited by Agent4054 on 02-17-200612:17 PM __________________ Tagnus Cainford 2nd lvl 60 Paladin - Oasis Server Rockeaters member Slayer of Deer

02-18-2006, 02:28 AM	#5
FieryFurnace Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 152	I like to set up the main tank group to include a Guardian and a Paladin, they both have good buffs for each other and it's very easy to have the MT switch this way. I have MT'd most of Court minus BQ and Sunchild, most of Gates and as much as we can do of PPR without that stooopid Djinn ring. __________________ Rellron 70 Paladin (retired)

02-18-2006, 04:53 AM	#7
Sirlutt Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,149	our raid MT is a pally .. who ever is saying pallys cant tank epics is pretty ignorant.. with the right gear any tank class can tank any mob pretty much.... its gear that separates tanks now.. __________________ I heart DE Broads

02-18-2006, 05:05 AM	#8
GidionSWE Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 135	Sure pallys can tank...we're maybe only slightly worse then warriors... The question though is does u and your guild rly want to make things harder for yourselves? While a warrior is only 5% better he's still the better tank in 99% of teh cases. Besides a warrior that isnt tanking is a hell of alot less useful then a pally thats not tanking. Edit: forgot to add that theres stuff thats impossible or pretty darn near it for a pally to tank like POS, end of PPR and djinn master i would assume (alltough we havent had much luck with that with any tank :p ) Message Edited by GidionSWE on 02-17-200604:07 PM __________________ Tayem, Mystic of Nastrand / Splitpaw

02-18-2006, 12:40 AM	#1
Eldin7 General Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 2	/sigh tired of ppl sayin pallys arent epic tanks... Ive tanked epics wit np.. i think it depends more on the mt group than the tank itself. Feel free to post ur pally tankin xperiences!!

02-18-2006, 12:48 AM	#2
Anzak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 548	Tanked basically every mob in Court the other night. While as a guild we are not ready for the Black Queen or Sunchild for that matter all the other fell and have fallen with ease. At this point any mob we can kill with our guard tanking we can kill with me tanking in fact we have killed some mobs with me tanking that our guard has not tanked though that is partly because I'm at almost every raid and he is not always there.

02-18-2006, 03:48 AM	#6
Kinesthesia Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 76	Our main tank groups nearly always contain both a Guardian and a Paladin. Depending on the type of the mob, direction of the wind and mood of both... either can and will tank anything. Each class is slightly better than the other for different kinds of mobs, but not enough of a difference to effect the outcome of a fight. As mentioned above, together they are far better than either alone.

02-18-2006, 05:20 AM	#9
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	While a warrior is only 5% better... Objection, assumes facts not in evidence __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

02-18-2006, 05:50 AM	#10
Agent40 General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 29	I highly disagree Gidion. I was tanking siyamak in PoS w/ a guard tanking barakah with no issues whatsoever. We wiped due to the imbalance. Got it down to 85% no prob. Its definitely doable. Citizenkannibal tanked the Djinn master down to 80% and killed the first spawn of the last named in PPR. So no, I disagree. __________________ Tagnus Cainford 2nd lvl 60 Paladin - Oasis Server Rockeaters member Slayer of Deer

02-18-2006, 06:24 AM	#11
emr Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 51	I wonder if when you are the tank for epics you used the Judgement line or Decree because SONY just nerfed them. I know I always pulled with Zealous preaching, Decree, and judgement. After that I was back to the spot where I planed to tank.http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47054 __________________ Emras Paladin Lavastorm Sika Swashbuckler Lavastorm Please challenge me to a duel, my ignore list is empty after the forced server move

02-18-2006, 06:34 AM	#12
Mgunner Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 225	I agree, any of the fighter classes can tank well with the right group. We even have a Warlock that tanked Poets Palace (not return) with me providing only my mit transfer. He had to yell at me to prevent me from hitting my taunts. I was very surprised at this actually. The key to that was the stuns. Now, he's not tanking any raid mobs, but the point is that pallies can tank just as well as guardians or zerkers with the same group makeup that makes guardians tank so well. __________________

02-18-2006, 02:18 PM	#13
Caetrel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 427	The Decree/ Judgment changes are gonna be inconvenient no doubt, but it won't affect anything. Just pull with Decree (or Judgment for single target) and follow up with taunts. The only hitch is you have to stop now for the casting time which is inconvenient but doesn't really affect the pull. I always pull with the longest casting time abilities because you don't aggro until it resolves, then you can whip off all the .2 and .5 second stuff very quickly. __________________ Fidelus Raid Leader Survivors Guk

02-18-2006, 03:36 PM	#14
Rr General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 62	I highly disagree Gidion. I was tanking siyamak in PoS w/ a guard tanking barakah with no issues whatsoever. We wiped due to the imbalance. Got it down to 85% no prob. Its definitely doable. Citizenkannibal tanked the Djinn master down to 80% and killed the first spawn of the last named in PPR. So no, I disagree.---------------------------------------------When you get all the way through all of these, with paladins for the entire thing for all encounters, you can say that paladins tank as well as guards. Until then, guards ARE the best possible tank. There would be no reason for a paladin to tank over a guard in a raid unless he was completely useless at holding agro, had VASTLY worse gear, or the mob AUTO-ATTACKED for magic and/or divine dmg. Unless one of those 3 qualifiers are fullfilled you can not point any instnace out of a paladin has an advantage.Rrin, 56 paladin __________________ Lope, 70 Dirge Rrin, 69 Shadowknight

02-18-2006, 09:54 PM	#15
TrekkerSnake Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 23	I highly disagree Gidion. I was tanking siyamak in PoS w/ a guard tanking barakah with no issues whatsoever. We wiped due to the imbalance. Got it down to 85% no prob. Its definitely doable. Citizenkannibal tanked the Djinn master down to 80% and killed the first spawn of the last named in PPR. So no, I disagree.---------------------------------------------When you get all the way through all of these, with paladins for the entire thing for all encounters, you can say that paladins tank as well as guards. Until then, guards ARE the best possible tank. There would be no reason for a paladin to tank over a guard in a raid unless he was completely useless at holding agro, had VASTLY worse gear, or the mob AUTO-ATTACKED for magic and/or divine dmg. Unless one of those 3 qualifiers are fullfilled you can not point any instnace out of a paladin has an advantage.Rrin, 56 paladin Lope, 60 Dirgewww.iconoclastguild.com --------------------------------------------- Good thing your main is a Dirge becouse it doesn't sound like you have the right mindset to play a tank. Maybe you should re-roll a Mage are a Range, or some other class that fights from range so you don't get so close to the big bad monsters. Or better yet go hide behind a Guardian. I've tanked most instances (to the end) and most contested T6 mobs. Some day you'll figure out that what makes a good tank isn't the toon your playing, but the person behind the toon. No guts. No glory. Trope, 60 Paladin Tox server Message Edited by TrekkerSnake on 02-18-200608:55 AM

02-18-2006, 10:34 PM	#16
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	Do Iconoclast Paladins just suck that bad or something?And btw... Paladins have better resists across the board than other tanks, sans the one class-specific resist (but even then, Paladins are pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] close, ~300 less). Its not just Divine and Magic. Message Edited by Anariale on 02-18-200612:36 PM Message Edited by Anariale on 02-18-200612:52 PM __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

02-18-2006, 11:18 PM	#17
Monfar Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 53	Sure we can tank epics , I do it , my SK friends do but I'd rahter have a guard take on the Black queen than have a 9k piercing hole hacked in me before any debuff heal has time to land lol. __________________

02-19-2006, 05:32 AM	#18
Jonaroth Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Newport Beach, CA Posts: 761	its funny our old MT (zerker) tried tanking black queen 10 times in a row, became totally naked. I tried it once first try killed him with a paly tankin. anyone who says palys cant tank dont know his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] __________________

02-19-2006, 06:13 AM	#19
GidionSWE Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 135	Jonaroth wrote: its funny our old MT (zerker) tried tanking black queen 10 times in a row, became totally naked. I tried it once first try killed him with a paly tankin. anyone who says palys cant tank dont know his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Or it could just be that ure ppl learned how to do the encounter during those first 10 whipes or that your zerk sucks or any other reason imaginable...If u straightly look at numbers though a warrior is the better tank (given u have the same gear and race with same traits- they got more hp, more avoidance, miti buffs, and resists doesnt matter cause u max em some other way) but ofcourse player skill > all else. Add that to the fact that non-tanking a pally is alot more useful then a warrior not tanking and the choice is pretty clear imho who should be raidtank. Key thing though is player skill > all else ... roll with whats work for u __________________ Tayem, Mystic of Nastrand / Splitpaw

02-19-2006, 06:20 AM	#20
beanom Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3	Pallies can def tank epics. With the same gear as a gaurdian, Paladins have a higher base mitigation. So, we need to have a brigand to throw amends on so other assasins and dps classes can go all out, rather than 65-70% like when a guard tanks. Athan 60 Pally Kithicor (formerly Neriak)

02-19-2006, 07:46 AM	#21
XskullbusterX Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 117	Im a little outta of time right now but here is a brief scenerio of what ive tanked as a paladin on the mistmoore server. We have rescently lost all of our guardians due to RL issues and that leaves a few tanks capable of the content that we were doing... myself and a bruiser. I have tanked ALL of courts of Alafaz and all of Gates of AA ... i have also tanked all including Jaranata in PPR we have not killed Jaranata yet but i was able to stay up while we got both adds down and her to 30% before i had an emergency and needed to log ... hope this stops the theories of pallies not being tanks because we are .

02-19-2006, 08:35 AM	#22
Agent40 General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 29	Yeah, i'm sorry, but anyone who claims pallies can't tank as well as guards need to raid with more pally tanks =P. It was true before the combat changes but not anymore. case closed. lets move on people. __________________ Tagnus Cainford 2nd lvl 60 Paladin - Oasis Server Rockeaters member Slayer of Deer

02-19-2006, 12:27 PM	#23
Zoradan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 186	I've tanked every thing in the game, T5-T6, you name it. Not every thing to finnish, but every thing. Sk's and Pallies can tank, no Q. Pallies have a better time with agro, other tanks have a better time over all, but a SK or Pallie who is good surounded by good players can tank anything...... almost..... :smileywink: __________________

02-19-2006, 10:53 PM	#24
XskullbusterX Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 117	UPDATE .... i wasnt on for Godking the other day but my crusader brother by another mother tanked the Godking ... if i was on im sure i would have wooty woot woot

02-20-2006, 01:44 AM	#25
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	XskullbusterX wrote: UPDATE .... i wasnt on for Godking the other day but my crusader brother by another mother tanked the Godking ... if i was on im sure i would have wooty woot woot Let's see if I can talk Aandien into letting me tank Godking tonight While I have [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed about our tanking compared to Guardians, I know that we can tank anything....it is just easier for a Guardian in the current settings. Let's hope that we are given something in the future that gives us a little edge with casting epics.... __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

02-20-2006, 07:32 PM	#26
JNewby Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 644	Anariale wrote: Do Iconoclast Paladins just suck that bad or something?And btw... Paladins have better resists across the board than other tanks, sans the one class-specific resist (but even then, Paladins are pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] close, ~300 less). Its not just Divine and Magic. Message Edited by Anariale on 02-18-200612:36 PM Message Edited by Anariale on 02-18-200612:52 PM that is not true... guards obviously have way higher fire resistance... but in addition I dont know of any natural buffs you guys recieve it woudl be dependet on the persons gear, I know you tend to have a higher wisdom because of that being one of your main attributes but that isnt to inherent in the class... and either way self tested wisdom does so little for resists.

02-20-2006, 07:36 PM	#27
JNewby Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 644	Agent4054 wrote:Yeah, i'm sorry, but anyone who claims pallies can't tank as well as guards need to raid with more pally tanks =P. It was true before the combat changes but not anymore. case closed. lets move on people. you have about a 800 hp disadvantage along with about 8% avoidance that is a constant change and while it isnt as big of a difference as it used to be it is... also the two short term mit buff guards get and tower of stone... which obviosuly isnt a perm buff.. but it still stands to reason you are not as good as a guard... though good enough to tank epics.. so what does this mean? it means that maybe you will need sharper healers... doesnt mean it cant be done or shouldnt be done.. jsut that all gear and skill being the same a guard would tank epics better..

02-20-2006, 07:53 PM	#28
Rr General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 62	Jnewby summed it up pretty well. CAN paladins tank the high end epic content? Sure. Do they do it as well as guards? No. I made my paladin when the game first came out, having never played an eq1 game before, and I thought of him as a damage/healing/tanking hybrid. Not great or excelling at any of the three trees, but decent enough. After live updates and further game play, I realized I wanted him to be a raid tank, but after looking at all the skills and stats of my paladin vs. and IDENTICALLY equipped guardian, I realized that a guardian just has better numbers for tanking over all. Do paladins have great resistances? Yes, but it is stupid easy to raise an MT's resistances to match per encounter, between gear, group members, and potions. Sadly, that detracts from the paladins raid niche. In addition to that, paladins are far better in a position for buffing the MT than they are to actually BE the MT. No matter who your MT is, you want a paladin/SK in there as well to buff him, so instead of having two crusaders in the MT group, put the guard in there who has his short term HUGE mitigation buffs. If you read through my last post, I never said paladins CAN'T tank epics, I only said that guardians are the better choice, and make the life of everyone in the raid just that much easier. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Agent4054 wrote:Yeah, i'm sorry, but anyone who claims pallies can't tank as well as guards need to raid with more pally tanks =P. It was true before the combat changes but not anymore. case closed. lets move on people.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't mean this in a mocking or derogatory way, but please point out the numbers to me that prove that a Paladin is a better choice for tanking. Lacking the mitigation buff skills, I don't see how they can compare. Pure agro control? I'm there with you, paladins rock that department. But mitigation factor? Not as much. Rrin, 56 paladin __________________ Lope, 70 Dirge Rrin, 69 Shadowknight

02-20-2006, 08:50 PM	#29
Anzak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 548	sigh I'm so sick of fighting this battle. Three main issues come to mind.1) Guards have no utility outside of main tank. A large number of guards like this as it makes them a one trick pony and thus gives good reason why they should be better raid tanks. This needs to change. Guards need utility so they can play other roles than MT then there is no excuse for them needing to be better tanks.2) "Pallies have heals and wards to make up for Guards short term buffs" Sorry this again is an unfair advantage to the guard and it is two fold. First off we can use most of these on the guard so having them makes no difference who is tanking other than our big self heal which is near impossible to get off against a raid mob because of its insane cast time and when you do get it off more than likely it is wasted because the healers have you back to full HP. Secondly our best heal is only able to heal about 2500 HP yet guards can block 3 attacks that against a mob that is hitting for about 3K a hit well that is more than 3 times the damage blocked. Also Tower of Stone can be used more often than LH. Now the trade off is the damage to the shield. I would say our heals average out the Mit buff though then again we can heal the guard as well so it would have to be balanced to our big heal which if you can get it off because of the insane cast time it is less useful. But here again guards can use their Mit buff more often then we can use our big heal make these timers the same and reduce the casting time on the big heal and then I would say they are even. Though we still need something to make up for tower of stone.3) Resist. This is such a joke. The idea was that each class would have resists to make them better at tanking certain mobs. Yet with resist gear anyone is able to break the resist soft cap. And even if it was not an issue which in smaller raid guilds it is not. I blow away the magic and divine resist of anyone in the guild without even trying. But there is still the issue of Guards are better vs melee damage and every single raid mob does at least 60% of their damage in melee so that leaves the edge in the guards corner no matter the resist for the AE. Also look at a large chunk of the plate armor out there what does it have for resists? Divine and/or magic. Why is this to make up for guards lack of this key resist that would make a pally better in some instances. Two things need to happen. First in full resist gear only the class with the that resist should be able to hit the resist cap if any at all. This will give an advantage to that class for resists. Second there needs to be mobs that do either auto-attack of a certain type, or atleast have a bulk of their damage come from a single resist. Further to this it should be balanced such that each tank class has an even amount of raid mobs they are better at. If there are 6 Dragons for example then each of the tank classes should be better at one of them. While in resist gear any class could kill any of them there will be a distinct advantage to one over the other.And don't even get me started on the whole AA thing. Sure we had 60 more Mit and maybe even 150 more mit if we got the BP from the godking, but we are still out HP and yet Guards got HP and Mit bonuses we did not. Now if the resist thing was not an issue them I would not mind getting resists over Mit but since it is an issue then we have a problem and do guards really need more of an HP bonus over pallies? Since thier Mit will now be higher shouldn't we get the extra HP to balance it. Sure they take less damage but we get a bit more HP to make up for it.

02-20-2006, 10:13 PM	#30
JNewby Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 644	Anzak wrote:sigh I'm so sick of fighting this battle. Three main issues come to mind.1) Guards have no utility outside of main tank. A large number of guards like this as it makes them a one trick pony and thus gives good reason why they should be better raid tanks. This needs to change. Guards need utility so they can play other roles than MT then there is no excuse for them needing to be better tanks.2) "Pallies have heals and wards to make up for Guards short term buffs" Sorry this again is an unfair advantage to the guard and it is two fold. First off we can use most of these on the guard so having them makes no difference who is tanking other than our big self heal which is near impossible to get off against a raid mob because of its insane cast time and when you do get it off more than likely it is wasted because the healers have you back to full HP. Secondly our best heal is only able to heal about 2500 HP yet guards can block 3 attacks that against a mob that is hitting for about 3K a hit well that is more than 3 times the damage blocked. Also Tower of Stone can be used more often than LH. Now the trade off is the damage to the shield. I would say our heals average out the Mit buff though then again we can heal the guard as well so it would have to be balanced to our big heal which if you can get it off because of the insane cast time it is less useful. But here again guards can use their Mit buff more often then we can use our big heal make these timers the same and reduce the casting time on the big heal and then I would say they are even. Though we still need something to make up for tower of stone.3) Resist. This is such a joke. The idea was that each class would have resists to make them better at tanking certain mobs. Yet with resist gear anyone is able to break the resist soft cap. And even if it was not an issue which in smaller raid guilds it is not. I blow away the magic and divine resist of anyone in the guild without even trying. But there is still the issue of Guards are better vs melee damage and every single raid mob does at least 60% of their damage in melee so that leaves the edge in the guards corner no matter the resist for the AE. Also look at a large chunk of the plate armor out there what does it have for resists? Divine and/or magic. Why is this to make up for guards lack of this key resist that would make a pally better in some instances. Two things need to happen. First in full resist gear only the class with the that resist should be able to hit the resist cap if any at all. This will give an advantage to that class for resists. Second there needs to be mobs that do either auto-attack of a certain type, or atleast have a bulk of their damage come from a single resist. Further to this it should be balanced such that each tank class has an even amount of raid mobs they are better at. If there are 6 Dragons for example then each of the tank classes should be better at one of them. While in resist gear any class could kill any of them there will be a distinct advantage to one over the other.And don't even get me started on the whole AA thing. Sure we had 60 more Mit and maybe even 150 more mit if we got the BP from the godking, but we are still out HP and yet Guards got HP and Mit bonuses we did not. Now if the resist thing was not an issue them I would not mind getting resists over Mit but since it is an issue then we have a problem and do guards really need more of an HP bonus over pallies? Since thier Mit will now be higher shouldn't we get the extra HP to balance it. Sure they take less damage but we get a bit more HP to make up for it. first off to make guards a more utility class woudl be a horrid idea... right now there aer 4 tank type plate tnak anyhow 1 dps 2 utilty and one strat tank.. that isthe choice made when you made your toon.. also we dont get a AA hp buff.. powned in addition the AA mit buff if imo correcting a error they made in the revaqmp where they gave everyone our defensive stance and gave us nothing in return.. it iwll give warrior classes a slight mit lead in addition you guys get whatever you do.. I havent really even looked.... and lastley you are right pallies make great mt group buffer/healers with the avoidance buff they giveand mit transfer if you didnt have that then you would not be welcom on raids if you were not MT as guards are not so I mean you could either have 4 guard classes or 4 more unique classes with roles on end game raids before raids ie in groups class doesnt matter as much mobs are all easy