DPS rankings?

You must play with terrible wizzies if you think they're under both conjies and rangers.

1. Warlock
2. Wizard
3. Assassin
4. Ranger
5. Conj
6. Illy
7. Necro
8. Briggy
9. Swashy
10. Coercer

In terms of pure dps relative to each other where does everyone think the classes rank now? On live I'd say its

1 assassin
2 warlock
3 conj
4 ranger
5 wizard
6 necro

Played by competent players and in ideal group situations I'd say this is where the dps classes stack vs each other, where are you guys that have gotten time to run heroics stack everyone?

[Gigglezzz]

In a beta raid, I would say this:

1. Assassin
2. Warlock
3. Wizard
4. Ranger
5. Conj
6. Necro
7. Brig
8. Illy
9. Swash
10. Coercer

Kind of a guess about the placement of Ranger or Swash because we don't run either of those classes in our raid force.

Gigglezzz said: ↑

“In a beta raid, I would say this:

1. Assassin
2. Warlock
3. Wizard
4. Ranger
5. Conj
6. Necro
7. Brig
8. Illy
9. Swash
10. Coercer

Kind of a guess about the placement of Ranger or Swash because we don't run either of those classes in our raid force.”

0. pretty sure Beastlord was topping parses last night...time to find a good player

The highest dps I've consistently seen on beta (buffed or unbuffed) was from a beastlord by a HUGE margin.

Any parses to back this up?

[Karsa]

Gigglezzz said: ↑

“In a beta raid, I would say this:

1. Assassin
2. Warlock
3. Wizard
4. Ranger
5. Conj
6. Necro
7. Brig
8. Illy
9. Swash
10. Coercer

1.1 Beast lord. ...p


Kind of a guess about the placement of Ranger or Swash because we don't run either of those classes in our raid force.”

Fixed it for u

lol

Updated based on average parses that I* seen on beta in heroics and raids...

1. Assassin - max parse seen on beta 111 mil
2. Ranger
3. Beastlord
4. Wizard (Brigand if singlet target fight)
5. Warlock
6. Swashbuckler (only if AoE fight)
7. Conjuror
8. Necromancer (Swashbuckler if single target fight)
9. Illusionist
10. Channeler / Brigand (only if AoE fight) - max parse seen for Channeler on beta 120 mil
11. Monk (if single target fight)
12. Berserker (hybrid tank/dps set) - max parse seen on beta 150 mil (full dps set and in a scout group)
13. Bruiser
14. Coercer
15. Channeler (if single target fight)

*I = me personally

It should be noted that I was not surrounded by locks during beta. The above is based on 3 groups and 1 raid with a lock present. Every other class was in abundance.

[Mogrim]

Your Swash is slacking. Your list is missing Brigand altogether, and should probably be 2nd-4th on anyone's list. Typically I would rank them like this, at this point:

Hands down best - Beastlord
Hands down second best - Assassin
Fight for 3rd - Brigand/Ranger
Solidly 5th - Swashbuckler, with much higher ceiling on AoE
Battle for 6th - Wizard/Warlock
Battle for 8th - Conj/Necro/Illy/Coercer (note, Illy/Coercer may fight for 5th if they have a well synchronized Mimic on Beastlords during Primals, or Assassin during FFU and if so, the rest of this list shifts down)
Battle for 10th - Dirges and Troubs - Probably a strong edge to the Dirges because they can BC themselves during VC which should allow Dirge VCs to well outpace Troub VCs.
12th - Channeler probably.

[Anunnaki]

If summoners are legit losing to chanters, and sorcs are losing to t2 rogues then mages got screwed *hard*. My experience is different, but I haven't had a ton of variety of players.

[Mogrim]

Well, it is somewhat of a large collection of events all happening simultaneously.

Scouts got... increase to their abilities and significant buffing of Dirges has astronomically boosted T1 and T2 scouts. Beastlords got a triple/quadruple dipping of buffs (in my opinion, they needed a lot of buffs, but it seems like they may have got about 30-40% stronger than they should have.

Meanwhile... Warlocks got nerfed, hard.

Wizards got mostly nothing. Their cloak is pretty good (not amazing) and the nerfing of Locks + Wizards getting a better cloak puts them at or above Warlocks overall, imo.

The other very significant issue that hurts T1 Mages (including summoners because they should be included as T1s) is that gear stat allocation just isn't friendly to them. Infusers can only increase mod on pieces that natively have mod, and T1 Mages want mod mod mod mod mod on everything. Unfortunately, no pieces have "heavy mod" possibilities like in the past. It used to be you could take a piece of gear that was nothing but Pot/CB/Cast Speed, and reforge it all the way into Mod, and aim for the ceiling. What mages need is a good 4-5 out of 7 pieces of armor gear for MAGES ONLY to have an option in that slot that has CB/POT/MOD **only**, with a massive metric ton of mod. This would allow those who prefer the //very heavy mod// playstyle to play accordingly. The absence of this gear serves as a double wammy to mages, as the gear stat options that do drop favor scouts very heavily.

TLDR: Scouts got buffed with the following:

1) Increase to ability damage
2) Big increase to Dirge utility
3) Increase to proc damage (scouts do procs best, generally)
4) Gear stat allocation favoring scouts.
5) Beastlords/Swashies had tons of improvements made
6) Troubs got a few small improvements

Mages got hurt with the following:

1) Warlock nerf
2) Lack of ideal gear stat allocation
3) Lack of quality improvements to Troub utility (Jester's Cap will end up going on scouts as well due to scouts being best at procs, once again)

PS Disclaimer: I'm more than willing to wait out the data on Beastlords. They've been bad for so long I'd rather get more data before having them tweaked down.

PS Disclaimer 2: I'm aware the WDB cap and poison nerf both hurt scouts. And the WDB cap hurts them a bit more than mages, for sure. But it is well more than made up for in other ways.

[Anunnaki]

Yeah, I dont like the current itemization and having too many blue stats since it diminishes reforge potential. I wasn't sure if the gear was going to mimic that trend all the way through raid content though, so I never bothered saying anything. As it sits, I have way too much auto attack stats that I can't reforge out of and not nearly enough ab mod, and I'm just a summoner who doesn't need as much as a sorc.

[Gigglezzz]

Yeah, my ratings of dps classes were before the Beastlord changes were fully implemented. They are BEAST now, no pun intended . But I agree with Mogrim, mages really didn't get anything for this expac. Scouts will be the big dps classes it looks like for this expac. Us mages slipped on down the list by quite a bit compared to AoM.

There is no reason to have a mage group in this coming expansion, 4 scout groups is the way to go. Scouts have all the utility and dps. R.I.P. t1 mages.

Yards said: ↑

“There is no reason to have a mage group in this coming expansion, 4 scout groups is the way to go. Scouts have all the utility and dps. R.I.P. t1 mages.”

even if the dps isn't as high as scouts, there'll always be a need for dps that can sling it from a distance.

Oh please quit with the end of the world stuff. Mages are still smoking the parse. Wait until everyone gets geared up next week then you'll see for yourself that some people are crying wolf.

[Laserbeak]

1. Beastlord
2. everyone else.

I posted this somewhere else but it fits here also:
Beta is not over yet let the devs adjust and tweak some of the scouts parses lower before us mages go over the deep end.
1. Perfect example in the AoM beta the necromancer was top parse in heroic and raid zones in Beta, the big increase to health was making their lifeburn hit for insane high damage. But before the Beta was over they capped and nerfed the necromancer Lifeburn (in my opinion they went to far and ruined the class for AoM) but the important thing is they did adjust it, just not a very good job, they went a bit too far.
2. This is a great discussion to have and the posts will help them understand they now have the same problem with some of the scouts dps and those also will need to be tweaked or adjusted down before ToT goes live. Some scouts more than others need more damage reduction, but I am confident they will get all dps classes to be more competitive and in a ballpark range of each other, without a few classes being overpowered.
3. Again if the devs didn't care about this issue then there would have been no reason for them to nerf the Warlock FC. Having a couple classes way overpowered ruins the game for all the other classes ( who wants to play a weak dps class, if that's your class roll to fill, you want to do highest dps you can ). Hopefully we prey the devs have common sense here and adjust the classes again to rebalance damage output. They make this job much harder on themselves when they add items or procs to the game that give different classes different buffs or procs, it would be much easier to deal with class balance if everyone got the same things, ecspecially when it came to ethereal weapons and what abilities did or did not reset. (huge screw up)
4. They may need to do this again and revisit this issue a few weeks or month after it goes live, if they don't they must not care whether the mages do go over the deep end, and the game dies with no population. All dps classes need to be competitive, let player skill rise to the top. This makes a game all classes and everyone playing can enjoy, not just the few the devs decide should be the flavor of the xpac. Devs need to understand that this is a priority and when not done correctly ruins the game for many and peeps quit, the population keeps deteriorating like it has from all their past class xpac mistakes.

[Mogrim]

The problem is, Warlocks weren't really overpowered. This is a prime example of what happens when people use bad data to make decisions and as a result they make bad decisions.

Seriously, read this analogy. It will help you understand why nerfing FC was a terrible decision.

Imagine you built a space heater. Your space heater functions kind of oddly, in that it has a small silent explosion that occurs for 10 seconds that repeats once every 150 seconds. However, during those 10 seconds, the amount of heat generated is extremely impressive. In order to demonstrate the quality of your space heater, you should record how it heats over an extended period of time, say at least 600+ seconds.

However, let's say you were motivated to try to make the space heater look better than it really was. If that was your motivation, you would take a much smaller clip of time, say 90 seconds, or 60 seconds, or 30 seconds. By doing so, your sample-size selection would skew the results and cause the space heater to look like it generated way more heat than it really did.

Now, let's say that some part of the Department of Energy finds your results and determines that such heat generation capabilities need to be regulated, and force you to use a weaker combustion system in your space heater based on your skewed sample sizes.

Well now we've got a problem. Because your space heater doesn't really work as well as the lies suggested, but now they've been toned down AS IF THEY DID.

^^^^

Now substitute Warlocks, DPS, Devs, etc into the above story, and you'll see what happened here.

morgim 4 president

[sycla]

“The problem is, Warlocks weren't really overpowered.”

sycla said: ↑

“”

LOL I got a good chuckle out of that too.

[Mogrim]

Surely you didn't base all your opinions on 1 minute parses, did you?
What a shame.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to teach statistics and sampling mechanics to everyone, but I would encourage you to ponder over the analogy, and remember: Even if I were to concede Warlocks were the strongest class in AoM (a debatable point when you consider that the best parse on literally every named was held by 1 of 2 Russian Assassins) there was less of a gap between us and 2nd place than there is going to be between Beastlords and Assassins AND between Assassins and everyone else.

Essentially, if in AoM it really was true that everyone other than Warlocks could do no better than a moderately close second on sustained fights, that imbalance is essentially Heaven compared to the Hell that is coming with this xpac. We're talking many of the top guilds looking at not using a Mage group at all, period. Many of the top guilds looking at not using Troubs at all, period. Many of the top guilds ruling out Summoners altogether, and only really considering a Warlock or two if they're needed to drain mana instead of using the Deity Abilities to accomplish the drains. Many top guilds agreeing that using a combined 4 Beastlords/Assassins OR MORE will be the most efficient way to raid.

So yeah. All this because the masses thought that 1 minute / 1.5 minute parses were great tools to use to draw significant class balance analysis conclusions.

Mogrim said: ↑

“We're talking many of the top guilds... period.”

I think the top guilds are retarded, period.

Following your flawed sample size argument, are you trying to convince us that only during your burst and FC damage did you spike to the top of the parse, but only momentarily (the small or short duration sample size) but by the end of the fight showing the complete parse you always were down 4th maybe 5th on the parse? This would back up your statement that warlocks really weren't overpowered. You think that everyone is only looking at the short duration parse (not true)

If this was the case, then maybe I could agree that warlocks really weren't overpowered. You think warlocks only parse well on short duration fights? But you fail to explain why on longer fights your still mostly the top dps mage on the parse at the end of the fight. Even long duration raid fights, good warlocks are still the top mages on the parse by far.

You can take any sample size you want and the warlock still beats most, if not all mages, and needed some reduction. Sorcerers specialty is aoe power, I agree that no other mage class should beat you guys on an aoe fight, and no mages do.
But I also believe you should lose on a single target fight to summoner classes, you can't have everything and be best at both fights. And since warlocks were even winning on most single target fights, this showed that warlocks were indeed overpowered.
If warlocks do everything best and all fights are their specialty, why bother playing and who's going to play the other dps classes? This is the exact reason why any overpowered class ruins the game for all the other players, and must be balanced. Or is it your opinion that, summoners should have no specialty, since summoners don't have huge sustainable aoe power all that's left to make us useful is single target.
So make some room here, don't be greedy or selfish thinking that your class should get everything, we all need to share some of the spotlight and all feel good about our classes roll. Your warlock will always rule the aoe fight, even in the new xpac that nerf is not as devastating as you think, your class specialty AoE is still intact.

I'll be honest and say I enjoyed having a new flavor of the month class for each expansion. It built anticipation and many players actually purchased character slots and rolled an alt based on which class was flavor of the month. It's in everyones best interest that the T1 dps, healing and tank classes shift from time to time. It is a strat within a strat and adds flavor to the EQ2. Let's keep it interesting and just have fun.

With all that said I think Swashies should be flavor of the month.

[Mogrim]

Skulls said: ↑

“Following your flawed sample size argument, are you trying to convince us that only during your burst and FC damage did you spike to the top of the parse, but only momentarily (the small or short duration sample size) but by the end of the fight showing the complete parse you always were down 4th maybe 5th on the parse?”

No, but numbers got close. And here is the flaw in your argument: On sustained fights, Warlocks/Assassins/Rangers/Brigands were actually all pretty close. Closer balanced than we've usually had balance work in this game.

The issue was that Summoners and Wizards needed to be moved UP a bit. They weren't. Warlocks were moved down. AND Scouts were moved up. As a result, the top 3 dps spots (4 really, because BLs now) will be Scouts, all the time.

[Estarion]

Mogrim said: ↑

“Just so we're clear:
I have a pre-charged spike, and it is out dps'd by a non-spike parse by a Beastlord half the time, and you think this is ok?”

What was group setup? What was item procs value in scouts parse? Why I should trust to your word if you told that you continously had been beaten by BL on aoe fights, but others who were with you told that this actually wasn't this way? I have a BL and all that BL has is the one 8 targets and one 4 targets aoes, and dagger storm which hits aoe but it's not an aoe CA cause it doesn't get a multiple effect as aoes do, and even loosing its effectiveness because undebuffed adds. So how it happens? Link detailed parse or it's just blah.
If BL outdps you on solo target tank&spank mob then nothing special here actually. It should be exactly that way, and I hope it stays all expansion long without any nerfs, but again something tells me that's not the whole picture.