Such a large differnce between us and a plate tank hp wise

[Jezekie]

Sitting here looking at a fellow shadowknight in the guild. He has 4954 hp unbuffed, I have 4521 (sta buff from ruby ring included) We both have 146 stamina, our gear looks like this. helm 33 vs 38 bp 34 vs 36 shoulder 32 vs 35 forearms 30 vs 37 hands 37 vs 39 legs 33 vs 30 boots (both jboots) 30 vs 24 he has 1 hex doll I have two, both are +12 sta mainhand 65 vs 37 offhand 50 vs 40 neck 33 vs 33 ear 31 vs 31 ring1 33 vs 33 ring2 32 vs 3 wrist1 26 vs 26 wrist 2 26 vs 26 waist 36 vs 36 Now if you're still with me that sums up to a total of +561 for the shadowknight, and 499 for me. That's a differnce of 62 hp in gear, with the same stamina but he still has 4954 hp, and I have 4521 that's a differnce of 433 hp which is quite significant. It's the worse with Guardians because they have self buff +sta/hp and blow me out of the zone when they push 8-10k raid buffed hp. My gear isn't going to get much better, it's full rare ect. And raid drops aren't in that high abundance. We're already at such a disadvantage due to the huge mitigation differnces we simply can't compete very well and our  "avoidance "means jack when you're getting smacked around for 5-6k a pop or if you have tons of mobs hitting you at once. Why have a bruiser tank when you can have a guardian tank. Yah yah I know ballance changes on test, but they are months off and initial impression doesn't exactly have me woooed.

[CosmicAcidGu]

yes, that's something that bugs me too. Damage on us is already streaky and to top that we have less HPs than other fighters. I see no reason for that.

The other day, I ate 6995 damage barrage. It's not really nice to see a tank class get one-rounded without even getting aggro.

Finnster

[Ghar]

I think the _intent_ was that we would have less hit points, but a better change to avoid, evening out our longevity

[Skha]

---

Gharet wrote:I think the _intent_ was that we would have less hit points, but a better change to avoid, evening out our longevity

---

Sadly, your avoidance against +++ mob is nothing compared to the lamest plate tank, if the mob is even con and higher. :smileysad:

[warchild]

ya there is a big diff in hp's beween us and them. i play a 45 bruiser with all rare T5 armor and fist wraps, and the best stuff that can be found on a broker and i was in a group with a 43 guarden with no rare armor and he had around 500 more hp's than me and at the time he wasnt the MT with the good buffs an 48 berz was.

[Jezekie]

Been messing around with gear again and comparing to my guildie who's a crusader. Because even with gear with more +hp, and a higher stamina then him, he still has a lead of around 290 odd HP. And I've been wondering why. So last night I was messing with numbers and gear, and came to the conclusion that we gain 11 hp/sta, but then there's another factor. Raw hp is multiplied as well, so if you gain 30 raw hp you actually gain 32 shown HP. Or if you gain 46 raw hp you actually gain 49 shown, or 36 is actually 38. It looks like HP is multiplied by around 1,065 and then rounded off to nearest. This is bound to change though when you add more HP/Sta, but I'm not sure where the first drop off is at. I still gain 11 hp / sta even when buffed to 162. Ruby ring actually adds 14 shown sta, rather then 13 as the buff description says. Now crusaders gain more HP per Sta then us, something around 12.166 / Sta, but they gain less from raw hp, something like 1.033. In the end it means they still have noticeable more hp then us. If anyone wants to disapprove my math feel free to do so, never been one of my strong points

Message Edited by Jezekiell on 05-06-2005 01:26 PM

[Jezekie]

Bloody double posts =/

Message Edited by Jezekiell on 05-06-2005 01:26 PM

[CosmicAcidGu]

Hi Jez,

did the shadow knight maybe choose one of the +2.5% HP traits? If he chose both, then he should get 5% more HPs out of Sta / HP gear.

Finnster

[Dovifat]

---

Jezekiell wrote:Been messing around with gear again and comparing to my guildie who's a crusader. Because even with gear with more +hp, and a higher stamina then him, he still has a lead of around 290 odd HP. And I've been wondering why. So last night I was messing with numbers and gear, and came to the conclusion that we gain 11 hp/sta, but then there's another factor. Raw hp is multiplied as well, so if you gain 30 raw hp you actually gain 32 shown HP. Or if you gain 46 raw hp you actually gain 49 shown, or 36 is actually 38. It looks like HP is multiplied by around 1,065 and then rounded off to nearest. This is bound to change though when you add more HP/Sta, but I'm not sure where the first drop off is at. I still gain 11 hp / sta even when buffed to 162. Ruby ring actually adds 14 shown sta, rather then 13 as the buff description says. Now crusaders gain more HP per Sta then us, something around 12.166 / Sta, but they gain less from raw hp, something like 1.033. In the end it means they still have noticeable more hp then us. If anyone wants to disapprove my math feel free to do so, never been one of my strong points

Message Edited by Jezekiell on 05-06-2005 01:26 PM

---

So what you are saying is:

• Brawlers have better base HP progression, but

• Plate tanks benefit more from gear ?

So much more in fact, that it will exceed the base HP advantage by a noticable margin ?

[Jezekie]

---

Dovifat wrote:So what you are saying is:

• Brawlers have better base HP progression, but

• Plate tanks benefit more from gear ?

So much more in fact, that it will exceed the base HP advantage by a noticable margin ?

---

Yes pretty much is what I tried to say. My results may be off though, so if anyone feels up to the task of testing out how much HP you gain per raw stamina, and how many HP you gain from raw HP please do add it to this thread.

---

CosmicAcidGuru wrote:

Hi Jez,

did the shadow knight maybe choose one of the +2.5% HP traits? If he chose both, then he should get 5% more HPs out of Sta / HP gear.

Finnster

---

Yeah he has all +hp traits, which if my memory serves me right I do as well. I have 1 agi and 2 sta traits tho, rather then all STA but this shouldn't be a factor since the shadowknight in comparison had less stamina then me at somepoint but still had more hp. He also has more No-gear equipped HP then me when I am wearing no gear at all. Also keep in mind I even have a 30hp ranged slot item that crusaders can't use (no bows/Pouches for them). My kingdom for unlimited respecs

[Kylins]

It would make sense that the tanks that use the least amount of protection in combat, would be physically tougher than those wearing 300lbs of metal over thier skin..

 

 

[OgApostrap]

Ya.. we should mitigate a little amount.. and have armor like.. not benefit it.. and have bulky hp and high avoidance.. And the plates should be low avoidance with high mitigation and lower hitpoints. ;p

[psubull]

Aside from the Everquest series, in any RPG where a monk is a melee/damage dealer instead of a healer, they have the highest HP out of any class.  I mean, it makes sense if you take the minute to think about it.  Sacrificing AC for more avoidance should be a decision made by those that think they can dodge the attacks, and take the hits if they get hit


Also, HP given by stamina scales up by base HP + non-stamina based HP.  Try adding 1 stamina when completely naked, you'll get less HP than if you were fully equipped and adding 1 stamina.  So by adding +hp, you're increasing the effectiveness of your stamina.  So that is why you get 32 HP when you are supposed to get 30hp.

[Redbed]

"Why have a bruiser tank when you can have a guardian tank"

 

Why have a guardian tank when you can have a bruiser tank?

 

Do you understand.  Guardians need a place.  You cant have the best tanking ability and the best damage ability of all fighters.  WHY CAN YOU PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND THAT.  Bruisers are the highest damage dealing fighters.  Bruisers are the worst tanks of the fighters.  Thats balance. 

 

If your getting smacked around for 5-6k of damage by a GROUP of mobs, you need to rethink your place in the group.  A single mob you may have a chance, but a group of what seem to be raid mobs.  Your stupid if you put yourself in that situation as a bruiser. 

 

Get it through your #($*ing thick skull.  You are not gonna be the best raid tank.  Best your gonna do is get me irritated when they trash my damage dealing and make me mediocre damage, Medeiocre tank. 

 

Stop trying to #$(* up the system. 

[Kylins]

---

Redbed wrote:

 

Stop trying to #$(* up the system. 

---

The system is that all fighters can tank. That the skill of the player behind the character determines who the best tank is. The system is not operating as intended, and we are offering suggestions to fix it.

 

If you compare the gap in defense and the gap in offense... there is a much larger gap in defense.  The 'high' dps we can crank out requires an enormous amount of endurance, and even then its only like a 10-15% more than a non-tanking guardian who hasnt neglected his/her attack scrolls.

 

 

Warriors rely on thier equipment, Crusaders rely on thier faith, and brawlers rely on thier bodies. When stripped down to its basics, warrior branch should in fact have the lowest hps of thier fighter branches but equalled out by thier superior mitigation and defensive techniques.

[treyy]

 

 

---

The system is that all fighters can tank. That the skill of the player behind the character determines who the best tank is. The system is not operating as intended

---

are you serious....

 

i dont know about you but i can tank just fine....and i chose the path of dps

 

196str

191 agi

126sta --- 4212hp...

 

1028 attack

 

.......these are my self buffed stats, when tanking, attack is lower since brawl is off

 

give me a druid or shaman and I can tank almost any single target mob in the game

 

if youre a tanking orriented bruiser and you cant do that then you need to learn how to play your class

 

well never be as good as guardians as raid tanks or group tanks, but bruisers, with a fury, own in exp groups due to our high damage output.

 

The system is operating just fine, the fact is each class has a roll to play and our roll is not a raid tank.....

 

Yes there are still some minor balancing issues but those will come.....might as well accept the class you are or reroll if you want to be a guardian so badly 

 

[Jezekie]

---

psubullet wrote:

Also, HP given by stamina scales up by base HP + non-stamina based HP.  Try adding 1 stamina when completely naked, you'll get less HP than if you were fully equipped and adding 1 stamina.  So by adding +hp, you're increasing the effectiveness of your stamina.  So that is why you get 32 HP when you are supposed to get 30hp.

---

My tests show otherwise, that the hp gained from sta at 160ish is the same as when I only have around 30. If you could post some results that prove otherwise please do

[masteroftacti]

Well I'm going to have to agree whole heartedly with Treyy. We will never be as good as Guardians as far as tanking raid mobs, which isn't our job in the first place just because thats how SoE made it. Sure we have higher avoidance but once we get hit, we get hit hard, and forbid that you get reposit and hit back to back there will never be a chance to get a heal off..... In an exp group Bruisers imo are one of the best if not the best tanks for the job. My bruiser is dps based but if you give me a druid type the agi buffs that I get will make me untouchable to any single group mob (as stated above by treyy). I don't know if it is so much that ppl don't know how to tank with a bruiser but they are missing some of the buffs that would make them much better as a tank. Even troubador buffs can make you avoid just about every hit a ^^ or ^ mob can throw at you. There have been a many times I have tanked without a healer in the group and managed to pick up a Troub and a Fury. Basically what Im saying is its all about the buffs if you get the right ones you will see a significant difference in your abilities to tank. HP won't even matter.

[Redbed]

"The system is that all fighters can tank. That the skill of the player behind the character determines who the best tank is. The system is not operating as intended, and we are offering suggestions to fix it."

 

My point is that your suggestions to "Fix it" are not required for those of us who play the class the way its meant to be played.  I love my bruiser.  Its everything I ever hoped it could be and alot of people are wanting it changed to something I DONT want it to be.  Call me a selfish [Removed for Content] but if I buy a chocolate chip cookie and Im halfway through it and some #($*er runs up and takes it away and gives me a sugar cookie Im gonna be [Removed for Content].  I had a very good chocolate chip cookie once and in the fall of 2002 I had it ripped out of my hand and some power bar made of brocollie and sprouts was put into my hand. 

 

Im seriously sick of it.  The bruiser in design is very well done.  Its an offense fighter with decent tanking abilities.  It doesnt need exceptional at the cost of another branch. 

 

We can tank, we can tank better when we are built from level 1 choosing the hp, stamina, defense etc traits and trainings.  If you do like I did and choose str, power, offense traits and trainings you can do seriously good damage.  We also offer serious utility.  Last time I was in Maidens Gulch fighting Visawhoswhatsit I discovered I had over 6 stuns and interrupts which really helped out.  Screw doing damage.  I was able to stop some of the Dreaded AOEs. 

 

Seriously Bruisers kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] for the most part, they need some slight tweeking but nothing to the extent that alot of disallusioned people think they do.

 

Thats what I mean when I say your agenda #$(*s with the system!  Leave it alone and focus on getting the bugs with our abilities fixed. 

[Demon]

Once again I must agree with red. Alot of this is coming from lack of using bruiser skills properly. I chose to make a bruiser and guardian at the same time. All over the boards I hear cry for nerfs. Frankly I am tired of seeing nerfs espicaly when the class works. I have just brought my bruiser up to 35. blah blah blah yeah I know I am not end game but I know people that are end game. You know what everyone tells me. If you know how to play that bruiser right get up with me when you hit 50 and lets do some raids.

 

We have one of the most versatile classes. We can tank when needed and are still useful as an offtank. What about when that guardian has a booboo and loses aggro and there's an add. Ibet you that healer is grateful that you are there to save him from a death. This whole concept of one tank groups is ridicoulous in my opinion. My static group consists of a pallidan a sk andmyself and a warden. We fly through areas without breaking a sweat. Our healer never gets hit and no one ever dies. Everyone buffs up my str the sk tanks the warden heals and the pallie makes sure everyone stays alive.

 

I think the biggest problem is people do not want balance they want to be the end all be all best. I find besides minor things the classes are very well balanced as long as the people know what they are doing. I feel sorry for those of you that do not realize this and urge you to try diffrent things with your bruiser. Ho9nestly the reason why you are failing as a tank is because you are trying to tank like a guardian would tank. Try diffrent methods and perhaps you will find we can tank and fairly well as bring some nice dps to the table. We have by far one of the best classes in the game if you kinow what you are doing.

[Miyu-Lega]

I'll agree with Red when the avoidance difference between a 5 ton tin can and a proclaimed 'avoidance tank' is greater than 7%.  Inspect your MT sometime on a raid and look at their avoidance, it will make you sick.  BTW yes avoidance matters on anything 57 and lower.  When I tanked Dara I parried once out of 2 minutes hehe.

[Mumno]

Kylinsky wrote:

Warriors rely on thier equipment, Crusaders rely on thier faith, and brawlers rely on thier bodies. When stripped down to its basics, warrior branch should in fact have the lowest hps of thier fighter branches but equalled out by thier superior mitigation and defensive techniques.

 

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __

 

 

Please! Please! Please!  think before you open your trap.  If you are playing a brick wall(warrior) and intend to get the crap beat out of you all of the time then you WILL have more HP than a wussy that tries to avoid all hits.  Use your head man. you are a DD and you trade the abuility to TAKE damage for the DD output and the Much greater chance of avoiding and/or parrying attacks.  That IS balance.

[kildarn]

I donno.  I feel all fighter classes should be equal in hps.  I think it should be the mitigation, avoidance and combat arts that differentiate between the subclasses.   However, I don't cry about not being equal either.  The mobs you will be fighting at lvl 50 hit pretty hard.  4-500hps is about 1 hits worth of damage.  If I can't find a way as a bruiser to make up for 1 hit worth of damage I feel there is something wrong with both myself and the rest of the people I'm hunting with.  Once the fight starts and I dodge 4 or 5 hits the hp difference is pretty much null and void IMO.

The thing that makes me sick is being lvl 43, having 35% mitigation and 75% avoidance.  Then I examine a 43 SK and he has 70+% mitigation, 65% avoidance, 500 more hps then me, and parses out at about 5-10dps less then me (when both are not MT).  How is that balanced?  He absorbs twice the damage, has 500 more hps to deal with it and only gets hit 10% less then me.  This may not all be exactly true on the defensive side but that's what the numbers show in the persona window.  If the numbers aren't accurate then SOE needs to once again update the display of this.  Oh and yes the SK and me are likely equiped, it is a good friend of mine.   

[Redbed]

yes but you are also helping him hit more and more often.  You as a bruiser, not only do damage but increase the damage dealing of your entire group.  Thats the hidden part of your class that no one ever really cops too.  Those rouges your parsing against?  You running your offense buffs help them do more damage.  That guardian does more damage with you then without you, and whoever you have your shrug off/overtaking blows/staggering stance also receives defense benefits.

 

There is just so much that a parser cant account for that you bring to a group.  So stop #$(*ing worrying about it and focus on having fun.

[Jezekie]

---

Redbed wrote:

yes but you are also helping him hit more and more often.  You as a bruiser, not only do damage but increase the damage dealing of your entire group.  Thats the hidden part of your class that no one ever really cops too.  Those rouges your parsing against?  You running your offense buffs help them do more damage.  That guardian does more damage with you then without you, and whoever you have your shrug off/overtaking blows/staggering stance also receives defense benefits.

 

There is just so much that a parser cant account for that you bring to a group.  So stop #$(*ing worrying about it and focus on having fun.

---

The primary concerns isn't in groups, it's at raids and tanking epic^^^ mobs. We do fine on group mobs, always have.

[Redbed]

Then that begs the question...why is a bruiser trying to tank an epic mob?  Its not our strength.  Play your class to your Strengths and you will be happy.  Play a bruiser like a Guardian, a fury, a ranger, a wizard and you are gonna be dissapointed.

 

You can do other things to epic mobs.  Damage of course, increasing the damage and rate of damage of your party.  Interrupts and stuns.  Im not going to go into specifics.  Look at what bruisers can do.  Then take that knowledge and apply it.

 

Serously, I really really really dont get where a lot of you are coming from.  I get the impression you wanted something other then a bruiser.

Message Edited by Redbed on 05-14-2005 06:23 AM

[Spice-uh-nat]

What these people are saying is that the game was meant for us to be able to do that, whether it has been that way since launch or not.  Now, because we're not as efficient of a tank compared to the rest, we can't tank epic mobs and have realized this and gone with our dps role which we also have.  Our "strength" was supposed to be avoid these attacks and do more damage at the same time, well in epic mobs, that's impossible for us, so we all assume that our "intended" role was not to tank epic mobs, which I believe we should be able to at some point in the game because we are of the fighter archetype whether we like it or not.

[Jezekie]

---

Redbed wrote:

Serously, I really really really dont get where a lot of you are coming from.  I get the impression you wanted something other then a bruiser.

---

Could say the same about you, because you want the class to be something it's not, and not going to be either with the upcoming combat revamp for that matter. Bruisers have been tanks since launch and still remains to be, a tank class. Allthough we need ajustments vs epic^^^ mobs.

[Corasik]

I agree with Jez here. Bruisers are part of the fighter Archetype, who are supposed to be High tanking ability, with medium dps abilities. Scout classes with medium tanking ability with high dps, Priests of course are low dps, with heals, pretty much low-medium tanking, and spell casters generally very high dps, with almost zero tanking skill.

Unless they move Bruisers into the Scout tree, and activate the scout 'Heroic Opportunity' wheel for us, then the indicators from SOE is that Bruisers are still part of the tanking Fighter tree.

With the combat changes on test changing frequently, its hard to know what SOE have in mind, but I signed up as a bruiser to play a tank class, which didnt have to be encumbered with heavy armor, its mostly about eye candy, its fun to watch a monk or bruiser type class in the thick of the action.

Its a pitty that SOE couldnt use their early beta ideas, where the same class could be made via different skill trees, originally there were 'examples' that you could have made a 'Ranger' for instance, by starting in either the Fighter or the Scout archetype, and end up with a different 'type' of character depending on your choices.

[Redbed]

In other words....Alexyi's head...meet brick wall.  Brick wall meet Alexyi's head.  Ive played this game before.

 

Ahh...I was hoping this would happen.  Me with one view (the correct view) and everyone else with another (the wrong view).

 

Ill say it again.  If you think a bruiser should be about defense...your a [Removed for Content].  Plain and simple.  And thats the basis of my argument.  You want to be more defensive.....And there are options for you to be more defenseive.  But it boggles my mind how you missed the other 4 choices in the fighter tree and picked one of the only 2 offense branches. 

 

Look, make yourself a guardian, dress in Leather, up your agility and tell people your a bruiser.  Cause thats a sight better then #$(*ing my class up.  Im out of this argument.  We can continue it in the Arena.  Where I can show you how much better offense is over defense when it comes to bruisers.