Ok...Why is slower better when it comes to weapons?

Gret · 10-28-2005, 10:40 PM

Im using a set of pristine imbued steel rapiers. I hit a lot and the weapons really dont proc like they should. IS this due to me dual wielding or what?

Can someone explain why slower is better? Im still in the EQLive mindset of lower delay

*P*Gra · 10-28-2005, 11:00 PM

i go by the damage rating on the weapon but thats just me but my cobalt 2hander > royal great flail

Khal · 10-28-2005, 11:50 PM

Pre combat changes it was due to the large amount of haste we got. Not, im not sure why, but lower delay still seem to parse better.

But one thing about this game, you can have 2 1.2 speed duels, and a 3.7 speed 2 hander, end of the fight youll get the same amount of procs, they balenced that from the start.

kono · 10-29-2005, 12:02 AM

Long story short, slower weapons are generally superior to faster weapons (with equal damage ratings) because of proc rate normalization.

The proc rate you see on inspection (such as 5% on imbued weapons) is actually normalized against a 3 second interval. Every 3 seconds, the weapon has that chance of having fired its proc. Weapon #1 with 2.0 delay and a 12% rate actually has a 8% chance of firing every swing. Weapon #2 with a 4.0 delay and that same 12% rate actually has a 16% chance of firing every swing. This was done to make slow and fast weapons equally desirable, and would work fine, if all people did was autoattack.

The (probably) unintended side effect is that other offensively triggered procs or proc buffs you have are affected by this normalization. If you use combat arts which count as melee damage, and can trigger procs, the rate for those procs will be affected by your weapon speed. If, for example, you are in your offensive stance, swinging Weapon #1, you've got half the chance of firing Furious Assault on every swing versus what you would have with Weapon #2. Each combat art you use will refer to those same rates when checking whether Furious Assault fires or not.

Now consider what happens when you're using multiple proc buffs, in tandem with AE melee combat arts, such as Assault or Rampage. Each of the hits from these multi-hit CAs benefits from increased proc rates.

All of this has been observed and debated quite a bit since last November. There are some who insist that DW are a more potent choice, and that is generally true at lower level ranges where there are more quality DW weapons available.

Now, that said, there are pending changes on Test which seem to be aimed at diminishing the advantage that slow weapons have over fast weapons. First, DW damage output is getting boosted by some unknown amount. Secondly, and more interestingly, riposte rates are being adjusted so that faster weapons do not result in as many ripostes as they do today. I haven't seen any conclusions drawn from anyone testing this, but it's possible that you may see tanks switch to faster weapons as a result.

najena.konk

Gret · 10-29-2005, 01:01 AM

Ok so for now the best thing to do is find the slowest highest DPS weapon possible for maximium procs? Only issue I have is when it comes to landing specials the DW weapons really allow you to bust those off rapid fire like...Is that calculated in the DPS between the 2HD and DW? I have them timed to where the max break without a special is 3 seconds....and can completely demolish anything in my way. Later in the game will the 2HD be the weapon of choice for other reasons?

Ni · 10-29-2005, 01:08 AM

"Only issue I have is when it comes to landing specials the DW weapons really allow you to bust those off rapid fire like"

That is incorrect. Combat Arts are not affected by the weapon style one chooses. Using DW does not speed up your combat arts. Using 2H does not slow down your combat arts.

Gret · 10-29-2005, 01:24 AM

Well I wish I would have asked before shelling out the dough for these 2 steel weapons then..lol

Oh well

Lechac · 10-29-2005, 07:33 PM

Something I'm not entirely sure about but that I've seen posted a few times is that with a high delay weapon, you can hit your combat arts buttons in between each auto-attack strike quite easily, and not loose one auto attack. The part that I'm not sure about is if we really loose auto-attacks when a combat art is fired exactly when an auto attack is supposed to take place. But anyway, I've been doing it like that and it sure seems a good way to maximize dps.

RafaelSmith · 11-03-2005, 06:16 PM

Lechacal wrote:Something I'm not entirely sure about but that I've seen posted a few times is that with a high delay weapon, you can hit your combat arts buttons in between each auto-attack strike quite easily, and not loose one auto attack. The part that I'm not sure about is if we really loose auto-attacks when a combat art is fired exactly when an auto attack is supposed to take place. But anyway, I've been doing it like that and it sure seems a good way to maximize dps.

Took alot of parsing my log and watching the timestamps, etc to verify that while you are casting a combat art..your weapon does not swing therefore potentially missing out on a chance(s) to proc. The faster the weapon the more swings/proc chances you might miss. The information above about the 3sec normalization is correct....any proc buffs, etc you might have are affected. Pre LU13 and Post LU13 If I go all out on DMG arts, etc I consistently do more DMG using a slow 2hander than DW...Especially in groups where im given several proc buffs from other classes. Now im a Guardian so "consistently more" has a differerent meaning than for most classes =P

Exmortis_MT · 11-03-2005, 11:04 PM

One thing to always remember is, the slower the weapon is, the more benefit from haste it can gain. All weapons have a min delay factor, thats easy to hit with 1.2 delay weapons, but much harder with 3.7 delay weapons. Also haste is a percentage, so 20% haste on a 3.7 delay will be greater then 20% on a 1.2 delay. Unless they have mucked with haste again with the revamp.

Also to factor in is hate, each strike generates hate, and more you can hit the more hate you can generate, also with mobs that are harder to hit, the slower weapons misses mean a much great reduction in auto attack dps, where to very fast weapons have a greater to chance to maintain a dps level.

Also remember style, and looks factor. It looks very kool to have a big [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] 2 handed sword over a couple of small [Removed for Content] daggers. And lets remember, its all about fashion. SMILEY

11-03-2005, 06:16 PM	#9
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	Lechacal wrote:Something I'm not entirely sure about but that I've seen posted a few times is that with a high delay weapon, you can hit your combat arts buttons in between each auto-attack strike quite easily, and not loose one auto attack. The part that I'm not sure about is if we really loose auto-attacks when a combat art is fired exactly when an auto attack is supposed to take place. But anyway, I've been doing it like that and it sure seems a good way to maximize dps. Took alot of parsing my log and watching the timestamps, etc to verify that while you are casting a combat art..your weapon does not swing therefore potentially missing out on a chance(s) to proc. The faster the weapon the more swings/proc chances you might miss. The information above about the 3sec normalization is correct....any proc buffs, etc you might have are affected. Pre LU13 and Post LU13 If I go all out on DMG arts, etc I consistently do more DMG using a slow 2hander than DW...Especially in groups where im given several proc buffs from other classes. Now im a Guardian so "consistently more" has a differerent meaning than for most classes =P __________________

11-03-2005, 11:04 PM	#10
Exmortis_MT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	One thing to always remember is, the slower the weapon is, the more benefit from haste it can gain. All weapons have a min delay factor, thats easy to hit with 1.2 delay weapons, but much harder with 3.7 delay weapons. Also haste is a percentage, so 20% haste on a 3.7 delay will be greater then 20% on a 1.2 delay. Unless they have mucked with haste again with the revamp. Also to factor in is hate, each strike generates hate, and more you can hit the more hate you can generate, also with mobs that are harder to hit, the slower weapons misses mean a much great reduction in auto attack dps, where to very fast weapons have a greater to chance to maintain a dps level. Also remember style, and looks factor. It looks very kool to have a big [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] 2 handed sword over a couple of small [Removed for Content] daggers. And lets remember, its all about fashion. __________________ Exxmortis

10-28-2005, 10:40 PM	#1
Gret Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3	Im using a set of pristine imbued steel rapiers. I hit a lot and the weapons really dont proc like they should. IS this due to me dual wielding or what? Can someone explain why slower is better? Im still in the EQLive mindset of lower delay

10-28-2005, 11:00 PM	#2
PGra General Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4	i go by the damage rating on the weapon but thats just me but my cobalt 2hander > royal great flail

10-28-2005, 11:50 PM	#3
Khal Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 649	Pre combat changes it was due to the large amount of haste we got. Not, im not sure why, but lower delay still seem to parse better. But one thing about this game, you can have 2 1.2 speed duels, and a 3.7 speed 2 hander, end of the fight youll get the same amount of procs, they balenced that from the start.

10-29-2005, 12:02 AM	#4
kono Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 167	Long story short, slower weapons are generally superior to faster weapons (with equal damage ratings) because of proc rate normalization. The proc rate you see on inspection (such as 5% on imbued weapons) is actually normalized against a 3 second interval. Every 3 seconds, the weapon has that chance of having fired its proc. Weapon #1 with 2.0 delay and a 12% rate actually has a 8% chance of firing every swing. Weapon #2 with a 4.0 delay and that same 12% rate actually has a 16% chance of firing every swing. This was done to make slow and fast weapons equally desirable, and would work fine, if all people did was autoattack. The (probably) unintended side effect is that other offensively triggered procs or proc buffs you have are affected by this normalization. If you use combat arts which count as melee damage, and can trigger procs, the rate for those procs will be affected by your weapon speed. If, for example, you are in your offensive stance, swinging Weapon #1, you've got half the chance of firing Furious Assault on every swing versus what you would have with Weapon #2. Each combat art you use will refer to those same rates when checking whether Furious Assault fires or not. Now consider what happens when you're using multiple proc buffs, in tandem with AE melee combat arts, such as Assault or Rampage. Each of the hits from these multi-hit CAs benefits from increased proc rates. All of this has been observed and debated quite a bit since last November. There are some who insist that DW are a more potent choice, and that is generally true at lower level ranges where there are more quality DW weapons available. Now, that said, there are pending changes on Test which seem to be aimed at diminishing the advantage that slow weapons have over fast weapons. First, DW damage output is getting boosted by some unknown amount. Secondly, and more interestingly, riposte rates are being adjusted so that faster weapons do not result in as many ripostes as they do today. I haven't seen any conclusions drawn from anyone testing this, but it's possible that you may see tanks switch to faster weapons as a result. najena.konk

10-29-2005, 01:01 AM	#5
Gret Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3	Ok so for now the best thing to do is find the slowest highest DPS weapon possible for maximium procs? Only issue I have is when it comes to landing specials the DW weapons really allow you to bust those off rapid fire like...Is that calculated in the DPS between the 2HD and DW? I have them timed to where the max break without a special is 3 seconds....and can completely demolish anything in my way. Later in the game will the 2HD be the weapon of choice for other reasons?

10-29-2005, 01:08 AM	#6
Ni General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 192	"Only issue I have is when it comes to landing specials the DW weapons really allow you to bust those off rapid fire like" That is incorrect. Combat Arts are not affected by the weapon style one chooses. Using DW does not speed up your combat arts. Using 2H does not slow down your combat arts.

10-29-2005, 01:24 AM	#7
Gret Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3	Well I wish I would have asked before shelling out the dough for these 2 steel weapons then..lol Oh well

10-29-2005, 07:33 PM	#8
Lechac Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 26	Something I'm not entirely sure about but that I've seen posted a few times is that with a high delay weapon, you can hit your combat arts buttons in between each auto-attack strike quite easily, and not loose one auto attack. The part that I'm not sure about is if we really loose auto-attacks when a combat art is fired exactly when an auto attack is supposed to take place. But anyway, I've been doing it like that and it sure seems a good way to maximize dps.