Did anyone catch this Moorgard post? Interesting comments...

MoonglumHMV · 11-17-2005, 08:30 PM

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=68727#M68727

As my notes at the bottom say, I'm a Monk, but most of the 'tanking' discussion has moved to the Guardian forum. I just wanted to see if anyone had caught this post by Moorgard, especially the last paragraph.

FrostDragon · 11-17-2005, 10:39 PM

Sigh guess that means he has offically ignored us. no posts to guardian in what 2 months. But a minor thread on another forum gets a reply. Guess Guardians will not get looked at until the server population of guardians drops to 1 in a hundred like in EQ1 before they get looked at. Until we stop playing they will not view us as customers.

This does open the thread again of is Guardian taunt Mental? He all but stated SK is Disease taunt.

Thanks Moon glad to see YOUR post from a Monk.

Message Edited by FrostDragon on 11-17-2005 09:41 AM

SkarlSpeedbu · 11-17-2005, 10:55 PM

Yes, thanks Moon. We do appreciate any info about tanking. All tanks are welcome here.

Veshtan · 11-18-2005, 12:42 AM

Tanking--like healing, like damage, like control--is not meant to be perfectly equal; it is meant to be comparable while still having pros and cons depending on the situation. That is not apparent by scrutinizing a few abilities in isolation, but rather by looking at the whole picture. Some fighters have more direct hate-generation tools while others have more indirect forms of generating hate. Shadowknights fall into the latter category. If some fighters have to work harder to generate hate, that doesn't necessarily indicate something is broken, though we will keep an eye on the numbers to ensure that rampant imbalances are addressed.

===========================
Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard
Game Designer, EverQuest II

__________________________________________________ ____________

Looking at this, Moorgard, by his own admission, states that nothing is meant to be perfectly equal, but comparable. So using this statement, then Moorgard and all the rest of the devs MUST give Guardians more DPS, since our DPS is not comparable in anyway to some of the other fighter classes. To not do so would be hypocritical after the above statement. They balanced tanking so it would be comparable...now balance DPS. Case closed.

Neimhidh · 11-18-2005, 01:49 AM

DPS is tied to aggro. Any boost to guardian DPS means an automatic boost to guardian aggro, so if DPS was boosted, guardian taunts would have to be nerfed to compensate. Case closed

Veshtan · 11-18-2005, 02:02 AM

Since our taunts get resisted half the time, I don't think they'd need to be changed at all. And even if they changed taunts to unresistable, our utility is short-changed enough that we wouldn't need a taunt re-duction. Now if they gave us more utility and dps...well..then i'd have to agree with you, it would need to be lowered.

Lyrus · 11-18-2005, 02:31 AM

On the contrary, let's think for a second here. if I recall correctly , all warrior and brawler taunts are for the same amount at the same level and the same skill level. The difference, as MG pointed out, is that Brawlers can use theirs while stunned and stifled, while warriors interrupt the target. On a side by side comparison, the taunts are equal. So since taunts that are given to all fighters at the same level are equal, then the only thing not factoring into the equation is the taunting assault line. Simply speaking, an AoE attack with threat attatched. Is Taunting assault generating so high a threat level that it warrents our much lower DPS? Let's not even factor in the other fighters equivolent to Maddening Defense/Inflaming defense, because they are all equally useful in different situations, perhaps if the root portion gets removed from the warrior lines things might stack up a tad bit more evenly. So there you have it, one skill line that is the entire basis behind guardian's lower DPS? I don't want bruiser DPS, but I want to be able to do well for myself. Even with a 77.4 damage rating weapon, soloing is still painfully slow.

Shizzirri · 11-18-2005, 02:42 AM

Neimhidh wrote:
DPS is tied to aggro. Any boost to guardian DPS means an automatic boost to guardian aggro, so if DPS was boosted, guardian taunts would have to be nerfed to compensate. Case closed

Guardian taunts we're nerfed at the combat revamp, while dps on other classes we're increased, why do you think there's 1000 threads complaining about guardians not being able to hold aggro (without rooting ourselves, etc)

If they increase dps of other classes they need to increase the efficiency of guardian taunts to compensate, guardians shouldn't have high dps, they're defensive fighters who protect not dish out massive amounts of damage. If you want to do that and tank reroll a zerker or bruiser. Moorguard said it, guardians (warriors?) rely on taunts to hold aggro not dps.

Aethane · 11-19-2005, 02:26 AM

Shizzirri wrote:

Neimhidh wrote:
DPS is tied to aggro. Any boost to guardian DPS means an automatic boost to guardian aggro, so if DPS was boosted, guardian taunts would have to be nerfed to compensate. Case closed

Guardian taunts we're nerfed at the combat revamp, while dps on other classes we're increased, why do you think there's 1000 threads complaining about guardians not being able to hold aggro (without rooting ourselves, etc)

If they increase dps of other classes they need to increase the efficiency of guardian taunts to compensate, guardians shouldn't have high dps, they're defensive fighters who protect not dish out massive amounts of damage. If you want to do that and tank reroll a zerker or bruiser. Moorguard said it, guardians (warriors?) rely on taunts to hold aggro not dps.

I agree with that too, i dont feel we should be high damage dealers, it would make us into zerkers, however i would like a 20-25% increase in damage, that isnt zerker territory and still below others. I would also like our taunts to debuff like they used to such as slowing the mob, lowering it's mitigation etc... That would make us unique, nt as much dps but can make mobs weaker and easier to kill and the mobs would deal less damage but they took all that away from our taunts and other CAs. Give them back and i bet ya alot of guardians shut up about doing less damage. See we have one role and other fighters get two, brawlers can tank or dps well, sks pallies can tank or heal and debuff well, zerkers can tank or dps well, and guardians get to tank and that's it! If i use offensive stance i maybe gain 10 dps, excuse me for not being excited about that.

11-17-2005, 08:30 PM	#1
MoonglumHMV Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 226	http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=68727#M68727 As my notes at the bottom say, I'm a Monk, but most of the 'tanking' discussion has moved to the Guardian forum. I just wanted to see if anyone had caught this post by Moorgard, especially the last paragraph. __________________ Moonfire - 59 Ogre Monk Ziofan - 36 Dwarf Fury Peski 33 Ogre Coercer Theleb 24 Dark Elf Warlock Moonglum 24 Iksar Brigand Moonfire 12 Sarnak Berserker Moonfyst 19 Ratonga Bruiser

11-17-2005, 10:55 PM	#3
SkarlSpeedbu Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 243	Yes, thanks Moon. We do appreciate any info about tanking. All tanks are welcome here. __________________ Grissil Blockhead, Guildleader Smoke "If you build a family with snakes, then expect to be bitten"

11-18-2005, 01:49 AM	#5
Neimhidh Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 201	DPS is tied to aggro. Any boost to guardian DPS means an automatic boost to guardian aggro, so if DPS was boosted, guardian taunts would have to be nerfed to compensate. Case closed __________________ Reepacheep, Assasin, Venekor Badbh, Monk, Unrest Cliaranach, Dirge, Unrest Cxaxukluth, Fury, Venekor

11-18-2005, 02:42 AM	#8
Shizzirri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 440	Neimhidh wrote: DPS is tied to aggro. Any boost to guardian DPS means an automatic boost to guardian aggro, so if DPS was boosted, guardian taunts would have to be nerfed to compensate. Case closed Guardian taunts we're nerfed at the combat revamp, while dps on other classes we're increased, why do you think there's 1000 threads complaining about guardians not being able to hold aggro (without rooting ourselves, etc) If they increase dps of other classes they need to increase the efficiency of guardian taunts to compensate, guardians shouldn't have high dps, they're defensive fighters who protect not dish out massive amounts of damage. If you want to do that and tank reroll a zerker or bruiser. Moorguard said it, guardians (warriors?) rely on taunts to hold aggro not dps.

11-19-2005, 02:26 AM	#9
Aethane Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 98	Shizzirri wrote: Neimhidh wrote: DPS is tied to aggro. Any boost to guardian DPS means an automatic boost to guardian aggro, so if DPS was boosted, guardian taunts would have to be nerfed to compensate. Case closed Guardian taunts we're nerfed at the combat revamp, while dps on other classes we're increased, why do you think there's 1000 threads complaining about guardians not being able to hold aggro (without rooting ourselves, etc) If they increase dps of other classes they need to increase the efficiency of guardian taunts to compensate, guardians shouldn't have high dps, they're defensive fighters who protect not dish out massive amounts of damage. If you want to do that and tank reroll a zerker or bruiser. Moorguard said it, guardians (warriors?) rely on taunts to hold aggro not dps. I agree with that too, i dont feel we should be high damage dealers, it would make us into zerkers, however i would like a 20-25% increase in damage, that isnt zerker territory and still below others. I would also like our taunts to debuff like they used to such as slowing the mob, lowering it's mitigation etc... That would make us unique, nt as much dps but can make mobs weaker and easier to kill and the mobs would deal less damage but they took all that away from our taunts and other CAs. Give them back and i bet ya alot of guardians shut up about doing less damage. See we have one role and other fighters get two, brawlers can tank or dps well, sks pallies can tank or heal and debuff well, zerkers can tank or dps well, and guardians get to tank and that's it! If i use offensive stance i maybe gain 10 dps, excuse me for not being excited about that. __________________

11-17-2005, 10:39 PM	#2
FrostDragon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 153	Sigh guess that means he has offically ignored us. no posts to guardian in what 2 months. But a minor thread on another forum gets a reply. Guess Guardians will not get looked at until the server population of guardians drops to 1 in a hundred like in EQ1 before they get looked at. Until we stop playing they will not view us as customers. This does open the thread again of is Guardian taunt Mental? He all but stated SK is Disease taunt. Thanks Moon glad to see YOUR post from a Monk. Message Edited by FrostDragon on 11-17-2005 09:41 AM

11-18-2005, 12:42 AM	#4
Veshtan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 54	Tanking--like healing, like damage, like control--is not meant to be perfectly equal; it is meant to be comparable while still having pros and cons depending on the situation. That is not apparent by scrutinizing a few abilities in isolation, but rather by looking at the whole picture. Some fighters have more direct hate-generation tools while others have more indirect forms of generating hate. Shadowknights fall into the latter category. If some fighters have to work harder to generate hate, that doesn't necessarily indicate something is broken, though we will keep an eye on the numbers to ensure that rampant imbalances are addressed. =========================== Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard Game Designer, EverQuest II __________________________________________________ ____________ Looking at this, Moorgard, by his own admission, states that nothing is meant to be perfectly equal, but comparable. So using this statement, then Moorgard and all the rest of the devs MUST give Guardians more DPS, since our DPS is not comparable in anyway to some of the other fighter classes. To not do so would be hypocritical after the above statement. They balanced tanking so it would be comparable...now balance DPS. Case closed.

11-18-2005, 02:02 AM	#6
Veshtan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 54	Since our taunts get resisted half the time, I don't think they'd need to be changed at all. And even if they changed taunts to unresistable, our utility is short-changed enough that we wouldn't need a taunt re-duction. Now if they gave us more utility and dps...well..then i'd have to agree with you, it would need to be lowered.

11-18-2005, 02:31 AM	#7
Lyrus General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 236	On the contrary, let's think for a second here. if I recall correctly , all warrior and brawler taunts are for the same amount at the same level and the same skill level. The difference, as MG pointed out, is that Brawlers can use theirs while stunned and stifled, while warriors interrupt the target. On a side by side comparison, the taunts are equal. So since taunts that are given to all fighters at the same level are equal, then the only thing not factoring into the equation is the taunting assault line. Simply speaking, an AoE attack with threat attatched. Is Taunting assault generating so high a threat level that it warrents our much lower DPS? Let's not even factor in the other fighters equivolent to Maddening Defense/Inflaming defense, because they are all equally useful in different situations, perhaps if the root portion gets removed from the warrior lines things might stack up a tad bit more evenly. So there you have it, one skill line that is the entire basis behind guardian's lower DPS? I don't want bruiser DPS, but I want to be able to do well for myself. Even with a 77.4 damage rating weapon, soloing is still painfully slow.