If you think Guardian's are useless, you can't play one . . .

[Mystara]

According to Websters a Guardian is defined as one who has the care of the person or property of another. I wish to make a point here as to what a Guardian can do an why they as a class could be one of the most effective and important classes within a party. Before I begin all of the current Guardians out there have to put a stop to the idea that they are and should be the so called "Main Tank". I have read over and over the same cries on the boards as to how players feel a Guardian "should" be structured. As a Guardian of 42 seasons let me be the first to tell all of you, "Forget about what you should be and be what you are. A Guardian!" The biggest gripe I hear is our mitigation, sucks how come we aren't the "Main Tanks". The answer is actually quite simple, while we are indeed tanks, we are not truly designed to be the brunt of the action unless absolutely necessary. And by necessary I mean we are the only tank, we are saving the life of the main tank. Our taunts are unique in the fact that not only can we hold and maintain an aggro if we need to, rather we can slowly gain aggro so that when we are in a group taking on that orange mob and the main tank is dropping dangerously in the red with the healer hovering on empty, we can pull it off to take the final brunt of things. Or even use the "Hold the Line" or "Rescue" series to generate hate much faster should things get ugly early. Seriously, the last thing we want is for the mob to come off the main tank and then start making smudges out of the casters. I would call that a definate support role, and a pretty important one. It also explains why we don't need super mitigation as we will not be taking the largest brunt of hits. The next biggest is about utility. I believe the utility makes perfect sense, so much so that I immediately started using it in my normal group and it has time and again saved us from a near wipe. I start by putting the group buffs on, which everyone should do. I then use the abilities that raise avoidance on our main tank. The damage intervene I put on our caster. And for myself I use my stamina buff and have my offensive stance up. Before I explain all of this let me straight forward with you, you will "never" at any given time always be able to control 100% of the aggro in any encounter, especially in a situation where there may be frequent adds. Now most pulls are pretty routine, the Paladin pulls and tanks, the Templar keeps hes eyes on health and assists in melee, the Conjuror sends out her pets for support on single mob, or if pulling a group sometimes puts her pet on a secondary mob. I am full assist on main tank, I use interrupts and deal damage on a steady basis so as not to power drain too quickly. We are a pretty brave group and often like to grab ^^^ mobs. Here's where things get fun. Things start pretty routine except for now we know the Templar is gonna go through some pretty serious power drain here. After all ^^^ mobs don't fool around. When they hit you, you know it! This is where the Guardian steps in and shows his true potential. The healer is practically out, the main tank is in the red and scared. I fire up my defensive stance, pull out my 30 second buff, do rescue to pull aggro and if necessary hold the line to keep it! Up to this point I am pretty much at full life so it gives the healer some time to recoup. I'm not too worried about massive hits as the mob has used a large portion if it's power by this time. It's an absolutely effective strategy and it's right there in my mainstream role. As far as the problems people are having with soloing all I can tell you is to try a different strategy because I can solo no arrow yellows without too much trouble. It may drop me into the red and eat all my power, but I can do it. Our job is not to take the full force of hits, but to keep the group alive, and I don't know about the rest of you so called Guardians out there, but that's exactly what I do. When I took the job it was stated that the Guardian has the most difficult role. Step up or step out!

[TunaBoo]

Yawn get 60, get outtanked by BRUISERS, then come back to me. you aren't even 50, so why read your post?

[Mystara]

Because it's not about the end game. It's about the real game, obviously something you can't play. Be constructive or get off the boards.

[TunaBoo]

you arent 50 so you a) don't see any of the new spells post 50 that change the game b) have never done a serious raid c) have never grouped with fabled other tanks you get along fine, that is not the problem. The problem is for serious guardians who play more then 1 time a week and want to be able to raid.

[Danter]

This is probably the most generic post I've ever read.  My question what can you do and contribute that others can't?

Mage wants aggro, mage casts Ice Comet.  Mage now has aggro and can tank as well as you or even better on half the encounters that use elemental melee damage and can outdamage you 5:1.

Scout wants aggro, scout casts buff songs or uses assassain/ranger skills to steal aggro and can tank as well as you can as well as do outdamage you 4:1.

Brawlers can do everything you mentioned exactly, but get this, they can do more damage, hold better aggro, avoid more hits, FD, Fear, Raise Mit, Invis, Bulletproof invulnerability mode, and out damage you 3:1 unless it's a Bruiser, then it's 5:1.

Crusaders can do everything you mentioned exactly, can do as much damage, hold better aggro, Ward, Heal, Lifetap, transfer Mit, transfer Hate, use emergancy Heal/Damage ability.

Beserkers can do everything you mentioned exactly, can do more damage, has great aoe attacks, increase damage of group, go beserk, Raise Mit, tank as well as you can and out damage you 3:1.

That leaves Guardians doing....well nothing anyone else can't do much better.

[TanRaistlyn]

This might be the most ignorant, and uninformed OP that I have read yet on this board.  I think the OP must play like 1 hr a week for last yr, cuz he knows nothing of the game mechanics, or even what the class was or is now.  Shouldnt even allow him to post.

 

Covenant

[Landiin]

From EQ2Players class discription and why I picked the path I did. Warriors: Warriors utilize heavy armor and wepons to safeguard their companions and to inflict damage upon the enemy. They stand bravely at the forfront of battle., striking fear inot the hearts of their opponents. Guardians: Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and to aid in the defense of their aillies, they will stand firm against any threat and lead their party to victory. That is from the verry discription SOE give for the Guardian line. If you compair the discription of the other fighter classes it talks about dealing heavy pain and damage to the enemy, NOTHING about standing against the enemy. For that verry reason I chouse a guardian to stand in front and TANK like the discription says.

[Danter]

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Mystara wrote:
I fire up my defensive stance, pull out my 30 second buff, do rescue to pull aggro and if necessary hold the line to keep it! Up to this point I am pretty much at full life so it gives the healer some time to recoup. I'm not too worried about massive hits as the mob has used a large portion if it's power by this time.

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Sorry for picking apart your post...you're probably a nice guy and have good intentions, but this proves you don't know the class at all now and shouldn't be adding fuel to the fire.

If you've even fought a mob (post CC) you'll notice they don't run out of power anymore.  Even if you vindicate or buffet the mob each time it's up, it'll still have well over 70% power by the time you're dead or it's dead.

1 more thing they took away from us...power drain does nothing now since mobs never run out of power...or even come close.

[TunaBoo]

yah you can't rescue every pull.. lol

[KiseroHT]

oh my.... i dont want to say anything negative about your post mystara. i am a very good player doesnt matter if im playing my fury, guardian or whatever. the whole point is that guardians have no flavor now. it's not about not being able to do your job.. it's just the best players know that given a pick up group situation involving choosing a brawler that makes absolutely no mistakes at playing their character and a similar guardian - you would never choose the guardian.

[Kell]

Mystra, I am happy for you .....if you like your toon now.  You have managed to do something I haven't!

The fact is that anyone can tank now, including scouts and pets.....and the other fighter classes can do it better than us.  Several different game mechanics have "conspired" to completely marginalized our role.  Maybe this was the intention, maybe the role you describe is exactly what the dev's had envisioned with LU13.  I have expressed a very similar point of view in other threads....it really does seem that our main function is to help monks/bruisers tank better.

The problem is, that is NOT the game I played for the past 11 months........its NOT the reason I started playing a Guardian.

I wanted to tank mobs.  I sacrificed everything (dps, utility, soloing) to be highly effective as a tank...picking a class that would tank mobs very well.  The fact is Iove tanking......and 51 levels of doing it have not changed that fact....I still love it, and want to do it the best I can.  The recent changes have tanken that away.  I still play my Guardian, but I no longer feel like I am doing the best thing for the group.  If it turns out you are right Mystra, I will start leveling up a class that is going to tank mobs....not buff one.

You know why?  .....'cause I love the job.

[Landiin]

Kellic, I am the same way, but I will not be lvl another toon up to tank for the simple reason I am afraid they will flip-flop again and their I'll be wanting to tank but can't because they change it up every 4 to 6 months.

Message Edited by Landiin on 09-27-2005 07:42 PM

[Markhe]

The biggest mistake you make is assuming that any group would add a guardian for any reason but being the main tank.  The days of multiple fighters in a group because their DPS is comparable to scouts and mages are long gone.  And even if a group were to invite you as second string quarterback, how long could you really stand being an auto-attack-bot-wannabe? My Guardian coupled with my wife's Warden can still handle 46^^^ + 46^^ + 46^ encounters in Feerrott (we are 50 and 49, respectively) while duoing, the major difference being it's no longer fun.  We used to do hybrid HOs, and have a good time pummeling encounters - now I have to spam taunts to keep the mobs off of her while she practically chains heals to keep me alive.  Now it feels like we're in EQ1 again, only difference being I don't need my 2-boxed shaman to slow the mobs before we can kill them.  Nonetheless, it's tank + heal + yawn = wife doesn't want to renew her subscription.  Think I'm going to be playing this game solo?  Fat chance.

[Pry]

Chad Pennington and Jay Fiedler got hurt, and SOE has signed Vinnie Testaverde to replace them! 

[hyks]

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Landiin wrote:
From EQ2Players class discription and why I picked the path I did.

Warriors:
Warriors utilize heavy armor and wepons to safeguard their companions and to inflict damage upon the enemy. They stand bravely at the forfront of battle., striking fear inot the hearts of their opponents.

Guardians:
Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and to aid in the defense of their aillies, they will stand firm against any threat and lead their party to victory.

That is from the verry discription SOE give for the Guardian line. If you compair the discription of the other fighter classes it talks about dealing heavy pain and damage to the enemy, NOTHING about standing against the enemy. For that verry reason I chouse a guardian to stand in front and TANK like the discription says.

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HAHAH YEP!!!! BUT BRUISERS DO THAT NOW .....

LIGHT ARMOR  > PLATE ARMOR

[Gaige]

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Landiin wrote:
From EQ2Players class discription and why I picked the path I did.

Warriors:
Warriors utilize heavy armor and wepons to safeguard their companions and to inflict damage upon the enemy. They stand bravely at the forfront of battle., striking fear inot the hearts of their opponents.

Guardians:
Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and to aid in the defense of their aillies, they will stand firm against any threat and lead their party to victory.

That is from the verry discription SOE give for the Guardian line. If you compair the discription of the other fighter classes it talks about dealing heavy pain and damage to the enemy, NOTHING about standing against the enemy. For that verry reason I chouse a guardian to stand in front and TANK like the discription says.

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Those descriptions are lore and flavor, nothing else.

[Owa]

Sounds like the OP has a positive spin on what being a Guardian can be. I can see how being relegated from the ' always MT' to the sometimes or never MT can be really disheartening. But perhaps the OP has a point? Perhaps the 'guardian that guards' role is actually pretty important in a group and changing your styles of play may enhance that? You have to remember that your class is not the first to be changed/nerfed in the extended beta we call EQ2  - and everyone has just had to get on with it.   Just wishing it ain't so - or deriding the OP for injecting a new opinion like the ever-odious Tuna - might not be that rewarding in the long run.

[blueduckie]

Gaige it was you who told about fighters when picking that they are meant to be equal. Your info was as much for lore and flavor as that fyi.

[Gaige]

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blueduckie wrote:
Gaige it was you who told about fighters when picking that they are meant to be equal. Your info was as much for lore and flavor as that fyi.

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I have no idea [Removed for Content] that meant, but MG specifically said that those descriptions are lore/flavor.

[Landiin]

ignore Gaige he is a kid jus tyring to cause flames. He is not productive so just ignore his posts and report him for startign flames.

Message Edited by Landiin on 09-28-2005 02:08 AM

[Gaige]

 

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Landiin wrote:

 

ignore Gaige he is a kid jus tyring to cause flames. He is not productive so just ignore his posts and report him for startign flames.

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You can report me all you want.   That's your choice. 

 

I'm not trying to cause flames at all though, I'm just telling you that citing those descriptions over and over isn't the way to go, because Moorgard already made a comment about those descriptions when the berserkers tried to cite them when their DPS got nerfed in January

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Moorgard wrote:

Some posters are citing the two-sentence class description on the website as a definition of everything the class should be: "Berserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict heavy damage with all manner of weapons. Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponents, to whom they show no mercy." Some of you have invested your own emotional reactions into what you feel this is supposed to mean, but those descriptions were written to give lore-based flavor, not define everything a class is. It can just as easily be argued that berserkers as they stand today fit that description just fine.

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Message Edited by Gaige on 09-28-2005 12:13 AM

[Landiin]

I guess the next time I order fish from the menu by reading the disctiption I can expect crow..

[Owa]

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Gaige wrote:

 

 

I'm not trying to cause flames at all though, I'm just telling you that citing those descriptions over and over isn't the way to go, because Moorgard already made a comment about those descriptions when the berserkers tried to cite them when their DPS got nerfed in January

 

 

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I was a big citer in those days. Did me absolutely no good. Wanted to play a DPS fighter - had to reroll a Monk. Didn't want to be Gaige-style Monk. Rolled a Bruiser. Now everybody hates Bruisers. Bloody hell.

[sylvo]

They may be lore and flavor descriptions but what in gods name did they expect people to base their class selections on ? When the website and the in game text gives descriptions like that? Or should everyone be very careful to read the forums before selecting their class? Frankly after reading moorguards last couple of posts in regards guardians "utility" and the state of raiding atm and various others - i find moorguards posts to be nothing but "lore and flavor".

[skyeandang]

I picked the guardian class because from everything I'd read in the manual, they were essentially walking walls, with high AC, lower damage, slow movement, and high taunt ability. I wanted to stand in front and protect the damage dealers.

 

As far as I can see now, Guardians are bodyguards. Medevil secret service agents, protecting the rest of the group. That's not a bad profession, just a completely different one.

 

Imagine my abject shame at dying to my first green mob at level 28, It was a snake on TS. How embaressing. I solo most often, so I'm not sure what to do...

 

How long does it take to get a character up to level 28, if I play 5-6 hours a week? Not sure I want to start over again...

[Pry]

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Gaige wrote:

 

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Landiin wrote:

 

ignore Gaige he is a kid jus tyring to cause flames. He is not productive so just ignore his posts and report him for startign flames.

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You can report me all you want.   That's your choice. 

 

I'm not trying to cause flames at all though, I'm just telling you that citing those descriptions over and over isn't the way to go, because Moorgard already made a comment about those descriptions when the berserkers tried to cite them when their DPS got nerfed in January

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Moorgard wrote:

Some posters are citing the two-sentence class description on the website as a definition of everything the class should be: "Berserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict heavy damage with all manner of weapons. Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponents, to whom they show no mercy." Some of you have invested your own emotional reactions into what you feel this is supposed to mean, but those descriptions were written to give lore-based flavor, not define everything a class is. It can just as easily be argued that berserkers as they stand today fit that description just fine.

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Message Edited by Gaige on 09-28-2005 12:13 AM

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Whatever you say, Moorgard's alt.

[SkarlSpeedbu]

NEWS FLASH-----

It has now been proven that Gaige has been named as the third man on the grassy gnoll, yessir you heard it here first!

www.gaigeisonthegrassygnoll.com

I'm so sick of this whinebaby crap from guards.  You know why I may play my alt toon?  Because I am ashamed to be a guardian by the looks of this whole forum.  /puke.

I have leveled 3 toons to 50 or close enough.  Guards should have been called GODians, they were so easy to play prepatch.  They are now in line, maybe a tweak on the mitigation or some change in utility but they are pretty close to right IMO.

 

Oh, lets continue with the OP shoot down.

 

Waa Waa Waa /insert bottle.

[Sunrayn]

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Gaige wrote:

 

I have no idea [Removed for Content] that meant, but MG specifically said that those descriptions are lore/flavor.

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Then which description of monk did you use to determine that monks and all fighters are equal tanks? And I am talking about when you first created your monk.  After all, you did tell us that you read that monks were tanks and that is why you made one.

[Pry]

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SkarlSpeedbump wrote:

NEWS FLASH-----

It has now been proven that Gaige has been named as the third man on the grassy gnoll, yessir you heard it here first!

www.gaigeisonthegrassygnoll.com

I'm so sick of this whinebaby crap from guards.  You know why I may play my alt toon?  Because I am ashamed to be a guardian by the looks of this whole forum.  /puke.

I have leveled 3 toons to 50 or close enough.  Guards should have been called GODians, they were so easy to play prepatch.  They are now in line, maybe a tweak on the mitigation or some change in utility but they are pretty close to right IMO.

 

Oh, lets continue with the OP shoot down.

 

Waa Waa Waa /insert bottle.

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Here's a website for you!  www.iwanttobeinfoh.com.

Know what I am sick of?  Pre-pubecents like you who think that the only defense to something is to say "Boo hoo babies".  Because you really don't have anything intelligent to say other than "Duurh, they are pretty close to right IMO, duurh"  with no other information to back that up other than the fact that you play a different toon now (ironically a Monk) and don't want to get nerfed. 

Know why you play your Monk?  Because like a vacuum your Guardian both sucks and blows, and you know it.  But you are so in love with SOE and everything they do you write SkariSpeedbump + SOE and MRS. SkariSpeedbump SOE in your notebook over and over and over and would light yourself on fire if they asked you to. 

What's next, wearing purple jumpsuits and drinking the kool-aid on the command of the great and indomitable Moorgard and his sidekick Gaige? 

[SkarlSpeedbu]

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Prynn wrote:

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SkarlSpeedbump wrote:

NEWS FLASH-----

It has now been proven that Gaige has been named as the third man on the grassy gnoll, yessir you heard it here first!

www.gaigeisonthegrassygnoll.com

I'm so sick of this whinebaby crap from guards.  You know why I may play my alt toon?  Because I am ashamed to be a guardian by the looks of this whole forum.  /puke.

I have leveled 3 toons to 50 or close enough.  Guards should have been called GODians, they were so easy to play prepatch.  They are now in line, maybe a tweak on the mitigation or some change in utility but they are pretty close to right IMO.

 

Oh, lets continue with the OP shoot down.

 

Waa Waa Waa /insert bottle.

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Here's a website for you!  www.iwanttobeinfoh.com.

Know what I am sick of?  Pre-pubecents like you who think that the only defense to something is to say "Boo hoo babies".  Because you really don't have anything intelligent to say other than "Duurh, they are pretty close to right IMO, duurh"  with no other information to back that up other than the fact that you play a different toon now (ironically a Monk) and don't want to get nerfed. 

Know why you play your Monk?  Because like a vacuum your Guardian both sucks and blows, and you know it.  But you are so in love with SOE and everything they do you write SkariSpeedbump + SOE and MRS. SkariSpeedbump SOE in your notebook over and over and over and would light yourself on fire if they asked you to. 

What's next, wearing purple jumpsuits and drinking the kool-aid on the command of the great and indomitable Moorgard and his sidekick Gaige? 

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Actually, I don't play my monk now.  I play my guardian, but I ain't real proud of it, with what I read here lately.  I appreciate your enthusiasm in labeling me an SOE fanboi, original comeback...now why don't you whistle the "gaige and speedbump, sittin in a tree, K. I. S. S. I. N. G." song, that would be a good one also.  As for an assumption that I wanna be in FOH, heh, they couldn't handle me cause I'm too good a player for em

I do like the idea of jumpsuits.  I give that 3/4 erect by Hustler ratings!